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LipeGIG
Topic Author
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Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:56 pm

Varig will resume it's daily service to Mexico City effective November 5th 2007.

Flights will depart São Paulo Guarulhos airport at 11 AM, landing at MEX 16:45 local time. In the way back, the flights will depart MEX airport at 18:45 arriving GRU at 0825.

RG8670 GRU 1100 MEX 1645
RG8671 MEX 1845 GRU 0825 (+1)

Flights will be operated with Boeing 767-300ER (in the near future will be replaced by a Boeing 767-200ER) with 30C and 180Y seats. Today Varig received it's 2nd leased 767 (PR-VAB) which will allow them to resume services to London.

Just a side note, Ocean Air is doing extremely bad on it's route. News from Valor Econômico (Business Newspaper in Brazil) says they lost US$ 6 million on the first month with an average load of 6 (yes, six) paying passengers.

First time we will see Mexico-Brazil with almost 3 daily services, and due to the results obtained by Ocean Air, hard to believe that Varig will post a profit competing against AM with a good service and better product.

Any way, good lucky Varig.

Felipe
 
sampa737
Posts: 463
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:20 pm

Why are the loads so bad for Ocean Air? Is it too new of an airline and not recognized so much here in Brasil? Wow, passengers. Amazing. I hope the best for Varig. It sure is nice to see her flying over my house!  Smile
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:24 pm

Wow... 6 passenger average. Is OceanAir using a 767 too?
 
Neo
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting Sampa737 (Reply 1):
Just a side note, Ocean Air is doing extremely bad on it's route. News from Valor Econômico (Business Newspaper in Brazil) says they lost US$ 6 million on the first month with an average load of 6 (yes, six) paying passengers.

Why am I not surprised!!! really... no one except the travel agencies even knows that they are flying to MEX. Pathetic....
rgs, neo
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:28 pm

The news concerning to Ocean Air new route, sorry folks, only in Portuguese


Rota para o México dá prejuízo à OceanAir

Roberta Campassi

A OceanAir estreou seus vôos internacionais há pouco mais de um mês, com destino ao México, mas os aviões decolaram tão vazios que a operação já resultou em perdas vultosas, que podem ultrapassar os US$ 6 milhões. A empresa espera reduzir o prejuízo nos próximos meses, embora vá ter de enfrentar a concorrência da Varig, que deve começar a voar para o mesmo país no fim deste mês.

Em setembro, o primeiro mês em que a companhia aérea fez vôos de São Paulo para a Cidade do México, menos de 3% dos assentos foram vendidos. Isso quer dizer que o Boeing 767-300 ER usado na rota, que comporta até 206 pessoas, transportou apenas seis passageiros por vôo, em média. O número contrasta com a taxa de ocupação de 66% que as outras companhias aéreas brasileiras registraram nos seus vôos internacionais no mesmo período. Os dados fazem parte do levantamento mensal feito pela Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (Anac) que foi divulgado na segunda-feira.

Segundo um executivo da OceanAir, que preferiu não ser identificado, os prejuízos por vôo são de aproximadamente US$ 100 mil. Por semana, a empresa realiza dez vôos entre Brasil e México, o que resulta num prejuízo de US$ 1 milhão. A rota foi inaugurada há quase seis semanas, em 31 de agosto, e marcou a estréia da OceanAir no mercado de vôos internacionais.

A principal razão para a escassez de público, segundo o executivo, é o curto intervalo de tempo que houve para a divulgação do serviço antes de ele ser iniciado. A OceanAir deveria inaugurar os vôos para o México até o dia 31 de agosto, conforme prazo estabelecido pela Anac. Mas apenas dez dias antes da data obteve da agência o Hotran (horário de transporte), documento essencial para o início de qualquer operação aérea. Só então a empresa começou a propagandear o novo serviço. Em geral, as companhias aéreas anunciam novas rotas com pelo menos um mês de antecedência.

A OceanAir calcula que a ocupação deve se normalizar quando o vôo tiver completado 60 dias, ou seja, a partir de novembro. A companhia brasileira já compete diretamente com a AeroMéxico, que tem um vôo diário ligando Brasil e México. Em breve, porém, deve ganhar mais um concorrente de peso. A Varig anunciou recentemente que pretende inaugurar vôos entre Brasil e México no dia 27 de outubro, embora ainda não tenha começado a vender as passagens. As empresa American Airlines e Copa Airlines também competem indiretamente na rota, uma vez que ligam o Brasil ao México com escalas em seus países de origem, respectivamente Estados Unidos e Panamá.

No mercado doméstico, os indicadores da OceanAir registraram melhora em setembro. A empresa obteve 70% de ocupação, mais do que no mesmo mês de 2006, quando o aproveitamento dos vôos foi de 56%. A participação no mercado ficou em 2,61%, contra 1,83% no ano anterior. Os números, entretanto, referem-se a um período em que a empresa ainda estava compartilhando vôos com a BRA. Embora o acordo tenha rendido bons resultados, foi cancelado pelas companhias em 30 de setembro.

Fonte: Valor Econômico
 
EddieDude
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
they lost US$ 6 million on the first month with an average load of 6 (yes, six) paying passengers.

Wow! This is really shocking! Another complication is that nobody in Mexico knows Ocean Air. It will be interesting to see if they launch a campaign here or if their sister company AV helps them in that area.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
hard to believe that Varig will post a profit competing against AM with a good service and better product.

Their niche will be offering less expensive fares both in J and in Y. If they are able to offer good fares at a small profit, they should be happy.
 
juventus
Posts: 2017
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:57 pm

Ocean Air's load factor of 6, WOW, that's the lowest load factor I've ever seen. Ocean Air needs to get the word around quick, advertise a bunch or scale back the service. I don't think many Mexicans even know Ocean Air exists, much less serve the route.


Great to see Varig, one of my favorites airlines back at MEX.
 
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Fyano773
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:49 pm

Hopefully Ocean Air improves that LF that leads to steady operation. The name of the airline is a bit weird, in fact, there is a bar in Mexico City with the same name!

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):

RG8670 GRU 1100 MEX 1645
RG8671 MEX 1845 GRU 0825 (+1)

Flights will be operated with Boeing 767-300ER (in the near future will be replaced by a Boeing 767-200ER) with 30C and 180Y seats. Today Varig received it's 2nd leased 767 (PR-VAB) which will allow them to resume services to London.

Daily flights? I think RG needs 2 767s for the mission. About the schedule, we will see both 763s of Varig and Ocean Air arriving (and departing) back to back; the competition will be tough...

Fyano
 
SAOAP
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 7):

Actually for Varig's proposed rotation you only need a single plane.

Now, as for OceanAir's mind blowing performance >> I'm still not convinced that the 3% SLF the flight between GRU and MEX had in September reflect 'paying passengers' only. As far as I know, ANAC statistics take all passengers into account (which also includes non-rev passengers). Hence one could assume that of those 6 daily passengers some were employees and/or guests. I'm not too surprised that OceanAir failed miserably in the first month of operations (on the GRU-MEX route). Still, I expected them to deliver a SLF of around 20-30%. 3% is probably a market record  Smile

Cheers!

Marcelo
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 7):
Daily flights? I think RG needs 2 767s for the mission. About the schedule, we will see both 763s of Varig and Ocean Air arriving (and departing) back to back; the competition will be tough...

Fyano, they need only one. The flight allows 2h of turn around in MEX and a little more in GRU.

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 7):
Hopefully Ocean Air improves that LF that leads to steady operation. The name of the airline is a bit weird, in fact, there is a bar in Mexico City with the same name!



Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
Ocean Air needs to get the word around quick, advertise a bunch or scale back the service. I don't think many Mexicans even know Ocean Air exists, much less serve the route.



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 5):
Another complication is that nobody in Mexico knows Ocean Air.

They need to learn how to establish a good international operation. First of all, marketing efforts need to be stronger, second... but not later, a website in Spanish ! Third, price... we discussed that at time of the service has been announced ! You have 3 main ways to promote a new service:

1) Lower Fares to compete against a established player (with strong marketing)
2) A better product (with strong marketing)
3) Different routing (with strong marketing)

Seems that Ocean Air doesn't know how to do this as they fail in use ALL three possible main strategies.

Felipe
 
EddieDude
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 7):
About the schedule

Only one is needed as noted before. In any case, the RG schedule is not optimal but it is not that bad either, especially during the northern winter/southern summer.
 
XA744
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
Ocean Air's load factor of 6, WOW, that's the lowest load factor I've ever seen.

Yes, this couldn't´t be more shocking !!! These, bay far, have to be the worst load factors, by any international carrier, out of MEX ever !!!

Not even when we started MAS to MEX, amidst a very complicated and tough environment, were able to see such miserable PLFs !!!

It is pretty obvious to me, Ocean Air implemented a very wrong marketing and sales strategy. They thought that by matching Aeromexico's fares in the market, they were just going to be able to ride on them and make a profit !!!

You fellas at Synergy Group did really screw it !!!... Would have been better to pull down your pants, instead !!!

Aeromexico is now the winner of the match !!! Just have to wait and see what Varig will be coming up with when they open MEX. Honestly, I don´t think RG will be able to produce even a single scratch on the Eagle Knight´s shield. This is judging from the latest reports about the type of product Varig is offering out of Frankfurt.

Best regards
 
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ghost77
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
They need to learn how to establish a good international operation. First of all, marketing efforts need to be stronger, second... but not later, a website in Spanish ! Third, price... we discussed that at time of the service has been announced !

More marketing efforts... i just tried to book on their site... click on the English version... everything fine, but then, you get a mix of english and Portuguese version (try that on the calendar, was very confusing for me)...!!! A site in Spanish i think we are just asking too much... unbelievable they could hire or make people from AV work in this matter!!!!

Their fares are sooooo high...!!!! Same as AM... much better to fly AM.

Also on the inaugural flight, news reported OceanAir had 86 passengers. There most be something wrong.. perhaps load factors were on the 30%s???

LipeGIG would be so kind to paste the load factors of pax carried in all Sep 07? Thanks!

Ohh... from a spotter's view... good to have Varig back and hope OceanAir stays...!!! We need more variety....

LipeGIG, another question, what is BRA going to do with PR-BRU/BRT. Thanks!

g77

[Edited 2007-10-12 15:34:27]
 
Summa767
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting XA744 (Reply 11):
You fellas at Synergy Group did really screw it !!!... Would have been better to pull down your pants, instead !!!

OceanAir have managed the start of their international operation very badly indeed. They blame bureaucracy at both ends, and the requirement to start the route by the 31st August, only 10 days after all the official requirements were complete after months in the process.

But as has been said before, the fact that the marketing has been very poor, the fare strategy totally misguided: keeping prices similar to those of AM, but banking on travel agents on their success by giving them a 15% slice of the cake.

Worse, in my opinion, is that in this day and age, many travellers book on the net, and with a bad website, and no use of Amadeus, mainstream reservation systems don't offer OceanAir on the route.

I always thought that the 767 should have been better placed with AV for expanded or new european routes.

The only consolation is that domestically, OceanAir has improved its load factor significantly. An ex Axis Air 757 should be joining its fleet at some point, presumably for services to Peru and/or Ecuador.
I hope that they think a strategy for any new services through, before starting.

I bet that new Varig will do much better on GRU-MEX than O6 has.
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 12):
Also on the inaugural flight, news reported OceanAir had 86 passengers. There most be something wrong.. perhaps load factors were on the 30%s???

Almost all of them has been invited for the flight, including Ocean Air staff.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 13):
OceanAir have managed the start of their international operation very badly indeed. They blame bureaucracy at both ends, and the requirement to start the route by the 31st August, only 10 days after all the official requirements were complete after months in the process.

If they were smart, should begin only by January 2008 or even one month later and before RG.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 13):
LipeGIG would be so kind to paste the load factors of pax carried in all Sep 07? Thanks!

I will try to obtain !

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 13):
LipeGIG, another question, what is BRA going to do with PR-BRU/BRT. Thanks!

GRU-REC-DKR
GRU-REC-LIS-MAD-MXP
LIS-BPS-SSA
SSA-LIS
LIS-NAT-FOR
FOR-LIS
LIS-MAD-REC-GRU

They have lots of plans, but they change their schedule every week... BRA is facing problems, fights between their partners, financial problems... and ANAC just begin a complete on-site audit because of constant delays on domestic operations.

I never trust on them.

Felipe
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:48 am

RG has recently established agreements with MX.
O6 flies to MEX without any possibility to code-share operations in Mexico. However, RG may allow traffic to some destinations on MX network as G3 may move traffic for those passengers travelling in such flight. The schedule of RG GRU-MEX fits to allow this pattern.
Regards.
 
civilav
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting Sampa737 (Reply 1):
Why are the loads so bad for Ocean Air?

Though many fellow A. Netters have pointed that out, let me give you my input as a Travel Agent based in Cancun:

Fares are horrendously high for a company that wishes to break the stronghold Aeromexico has on the route. Even Varig was more affordable on occasions (like low season for instance).
I have had difficulty booking my passengers on Ocean Air, additionally, because they lack e-tickets and it is a hassle these days to have to issue normal paper tickets. Copa, for example, undercuts Ocean Air by at least 20% on most fare levels and is fully e-ticket. You can book over the phone, pay with your credit card and your confirmation number will do.
With Ocean Air this is not so never mind that they are far more expensive.

If they got their act together (introduce electronic ticketing, granted agencies virtual plates for the issuing of tickets - right now it has to be done using the AV plate - and introduced a fair structure of air fares), maybe things would be different for them.

Welcome back VARIG !

Greetings from Cancún.
 
juventus
Posts: 2017
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:06 pm

Even if Ocean Air is not doing things right internationally, not advertising, and not efficient, still a load factor of 6 between two of the 5 largest cities in the world. Can someone explain that??? Even by accident they should get at least 50 people onboard
 
SAOAP
Posts: 142
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RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting JUVENTUS (Reply 17):

In Brazil there's a buzz going around (ever since the airline was established as a matter of fact) that OceanAir serves primarily as a a cover up for a huge money laundry act. The fact that OceanAir's owner happens to be Avianca's owner throws in some more suspicion that aside from money laundry there might be other ilegal acts involved here (and I'm not saying that just because Avianca is from Colombia, trust me). This wouldn't be the first time we see something like this in Brazil. Some years ago the police 'found' marijuana stacks inside a TAM F100... Furthermore, OceanAir just opened a ticket store in the middle of one of Rio's biggest slums. While there actually might be some potential it yet again creates more suspicion that the airline might well be nothing more than a very ellaborate cover up. Add to that the fact that OceanAir's 767 arrived back in March and only started flying on a regular basis in september, you quickly come to the conclusion that either there's something terribly wrong with the airline's strategy (if there even is one) or that the airline really is used primarily as a cover up for some illegal operation.

Like you said, to achieve a SLF of 3% in a whole month is really quite a feat. I figured to do that you'd have to visit potential agencies/clients and discourage them from selling OceanAir. Remember, these 3% might not even represent revenue passengers...

In any event, there's definitely something very wrong here...

Cheers,

Marcelo
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 18):
OceanAir serves primarily as a a cover up for a huge money laundry act.

... Geez !!!  tombstone 

OK fellas, in October and November Aeromexico and Copa are having the following levels on their MEX-GRU v v.

AM is at USD 895.00, inclusive of taxes and fees
CM is at USD 1167.00, inclusive of taxes and fees

Naturally, I would pick the all mighty T7 from Aeromexico, and not only for the great fare, the IFE and other amenities, but because it is a non-stop.

It looks like AM has finally learned how to properly handle their yield management structure !!!

Tried to check with AR, AV and LA, but their websites are experiencing problems.

Hey, Copa´s website is a real beauty !!! Very fast, friendly, accurate and flexible. I am impressed !!!

Best regards
 
Neo
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:29 pm

Quoting XA744 (Reply 19):
Quoting SAOAP (Reply 18):
OceanAir serves primarily as a a cover up for a huge money laundry act.

... Geez !!!

If you stop to think about it actually explains current situation of Oceanair. I never really got them.. odd is the best world i come up with to describe them. Even in their domestic operation.., route netword, aircrafts used, service in general is just so no right.. you would imagine that Oceanair would be flying internationally based in their operation. Do they even have a hub? And what about the announced new services to AFRICA? LOS and LAD? Everything just seems doesn't make to much sense, up until this cover up thesis..

Rgs,

Neo
 
juventus
Posts: 2017
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:12 pm

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 18):

Thanx for answering my question Marcelo, really don't know what to say.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 18):
n Brazil there's a buzz going around (ever since the airline was established as a matter of fact) that OceanAir serves primarily as a a cover up for a huge money laundry act. The fact that OceanAir's owner happens to be Avianca's owner throws in some more suspicion that aside from money laundry there might be other ilegal acts involved here (and I'm not saying that just because Avianca is from Colombia, trust me). This wouldn't be the first time we see something like this in Brazil. Some years ago the police 'found' marijuana stacks inside a TAM F100... Furthermore, OceanAir just opened a ticket store in the middle of one of Rio's biggest slums. While there actually might be some potential it yet again creates more suspicion that the airline might well be nothing more than a very ellaborate cover up. Add to that the fact that OceanAir's 767 arrived back in March and only started flying on a regular basis in september, you quickly come to the conclusion that either there's something terribly wrong with the airline's strategy (if there even is one) or that the airline really is used primarily as a cover up for some illegal operation.

Does Perú AeroContinente ring a bell? If Oceanair is proven to be a money-laundry operation, it'll take down AV with them.

Quoting XA744 (Reply 19):
OK fellas, in October and November Aeromexico and Copa are having the following levels on their MEX-GRU v v.

AM is at USD 895.00, inclusive of taxes and fees
CM is at USD 1167.00, inclusive of taxes and fees

Naturally, I would pick the all mighty T7 from Aeromexico, and not only for the great fare, the IFE and other amenities, but because it is a non-stop.

But AM flies once a day or twice a day between MEX and GRU. While a long flight on a B777 is very attractive and comfortable, bear in mind that CM could also take you from GDL and CUN in México and fly you to GIG and MAO in Brazil.

Quoting XA744 (Reply 19):
Hey, Copa´s website is a real beauty !!! Very fast, friendly, accurate and flexible. I am impressed !!!

When it comes to buying tickets, yes, it's a real beauty. When it come to news updates, it's a shame.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 18):
n Brazil there's a buzz going around (ever since the airline was established as a matter of fact) that OceanAir serves primarily as a a cover up for a huge money laundry act. The fact that OceanAir's owner happens to be Avianca's owner throws in some more suspicion

I would like to know more about why you think that OceanAir being owned by the same owner as Avianca would throw in more suspicion?
I hope that answer is substancial and not just malicious inuendo.

I happen to think that German Efromovich is a serious, hard working businessman who has made his conglomerate through entrepreneurship. When he is personally seeing to the customers in Bogota, one can tell that he is really passionate about the airline business. He has admitted that he would like faster expansion, and that his AV CEO has had to rein him in somewhat.
OceanAir may not be giving the results that AV has, but Mr Efromovich is there for the long haul. He does have money to spend, from his other ventures, especially the oil exploration that have done well for him.
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2333
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 23):
I would like to know more about why you think that OceanAir being owned by the same owner as Avianca would throw in more suspicion?

I second this.

To me, the cover-up story is just as stupid as the ones who give some credit to it. How about we start-off by using the most simple, common possibility for explaining OceanAir's current situation = Plain mismanagment.

...Oh, but of course, we're talking about an airline from Brazil, this must be another case of landry act then.  Yeah sure
 
adriaticus
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:29 pm

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:18 pm

Interesting to see AV competes with sister company (or is it parent?) O6 in the MEXGRU market, offering lower fares and easier access to purchase tickets!!

And, I concur with all those above who mentioned poor marketing on the side of O6 as a reason for low LFs. Albeit we had heard of their plans, I got to learn they had actually started to fly only by chance, when I saw their B763 crossing over Boulevard Puerto Aéreo on final approach to MEX a few weeks ago.

Cheers!
__Ad.
 
SAOAP
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 23):

I think you missed a part here >> "and I'm not saying that just because Avianca is from Colombia, trust me".

For the record, if I had actually intended the comment to be malicious, I might as well be branded a hypocrite. Brazil is right up there with Colombia when it comes to illicit activities. It might be even worse. Period. But for the argument's sake, here we go...

First of all concerning the Brazil x Colombia misunderstanding: it is a known fact nowadays that Brazil and Colombia are among the worlds largest cocaine and coca derivatives producers. Consequently, these two countries are also among the main suppliers to both Europe and the US. Furthermore, the drugs are moved back and forth between Brazil and Colombia for shipment to both the US and Europe, among others. In order to move those huge ammounts of 'material' you need to have some 'help'. Everyone knows all too well how $$$ can be appealing to a some individuals - most notably ,but not exclusevly, to major execs and Government officials (and again, Brazil has a history when it comes to corruption). Several people are involved in these schemes. And airlines and airline execs have been linked to such activities in the past. The most famous case in Brazil is TAM and its founder Rolim Amaro (I'm sure that TAM and Rolim were not the only ones). Again, for the record, there were of course never any official links here, but if you ask any airline pilot and/or employee who has a bit of an insight into Brazilian Civil Aviation, he won't deny that he has at least heard this story. As I already mentioned earlier, stacks of marijuana have been found in a TAM Fokker 100 in the past. Even the ill-fated PT-MRK which crashed near CGH after take-off back in 1996 carried stacks of marijuana. Ok, so far so good. And here's where Eframovich comes in... Again, as I said in my first statement "there's a buzz", which means this isn't official. Still, where there's smoke, there's fire.

Before I go into Eframovich there are some things I'd like to clarify though. My information on Eframovich is based on local news (i.e. in portuguese), so if this doesn't correspond to what you've heard, please be so kind as to share the information. It's always interesting to see other perspectives. As I always say, there are three sides to a fact: VERSION A, VERSION B and the thruth somewhere in between  Smile

As many here might know, Brazil is currently facing its worse corruption crisis ever. This goes right up to the President who so eloquently claims that 'the only thing he knows is that he doesn't know anything'... That politicians are known to be corrupt is something everyone will agree with. Still, long story short, the current administration formed mainly by the PT took over back in 2002. Since then, the situation of the country has been constantly deteriorating. One example is the aviation industry. While it is not solely the current administration's fault that the whole infra-structure is failling (i.e. has failed on more than one occasion, and, has since cost the lives of almost 400 people in under a year) they have certainly been the decisive factor. If one was to look into PT's members he would quickly realise that a good part of the party consists of former guerrilleros, some of whom have among other crimes, already commited murder. With this I think everyone can get a clear picture of what's happening in Brazil.

And now we get to Eframovich. Gérman Eframovich has been linked to the PT and even the President in Brazil. Aside from having tried to take over Transbrasil in a failed attempt set up by the party, Eframovich was Lula's (Brazil's current President) teacher in the past - before Lula even thought of running for President, back when he was 'still' involved with guerrillas. Furthermore, Eframovich has been accused of funding certain members of the House of Representatives' reelection campaign in Rio de Janeiro in order to escape fraud accusations (the fundend members were PT Party members, needles to say).

As if that wasn't enough, let's turn our attention to OceanAir once again, this is, after all, a civil aviation forum  Smile How can a serious airline take delivery of a 767-300 and only put it to use 6 months after it was delivered?! And then fail so miserably at the first attempt in establishing a new route between SAO and MEX (two of the world's five largest cities). Let's not forget the domestic market. It's amazing how often you see up to four 'brand-new' Fokker 100 simply stored in hangars during peak seasons (i.e. public holidays, when all other airlines are offering charter flights, extra flights, etc.).

Finally, I respect your view on the subject but after everything I just pointed out, you'll forgive me if I don't agree with your view that "Gérman Eframovich is a serious, hard working businessman".

Cheers!

Marcelo
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 26):
As if that wasn't enough, let's turn our attention to OceanAir once again, this is, after all, a civil aviation forum How can a serious airline take delivery of a 767-300 and only put it to use 6 months after it was delivered?! And then fail so miserably at the first attempt in establishing a new route between SAO and MEX (two of the world's five largest cities). Let's not forget the domestic market. It's amazing how often you see up to four 'brand-new' Fokker 100 simply stored in hangars during peak seasons (i.e. public holidays, when all other airlines are offering charter flights, extra flights, etc.).

I am not going to get involved in the conspiracy theories about guerillas running Brazil, but I can offer an explanation for the one on OceanAir's operation, and basically, it is mostly down to over-enthusiasm and bureaucracy:
The 29 F100s were purchased in a very good deal, but they started to arrive much faster than OceanAir could get rights to operate routes. As the authorities were granted, and this is a slow process, the routes were started.
With the 767 the main issue was bureaucracy as well. Getting an aircraft registered and certified for operations, same with the crew, training etc, it took longer than the company anticipated. Lastly came yet more bureaucracy in Mexico, where understandably- the authorities want to make that everything is in order, from certificates to financial guarantees. It took very long, not least because it was O6s first international venture. Whilst this was happening, it must be remebered that the 767 was leased out to TAAG, and that it undertook domestic flights too.

I also heard about the opening of a sales office in a large underprivilaged neighbourhood, and that they would offer credit facilities so that air travel is made more affordable. I don't see how this should arise suspicion.

I am glad to see that OceanAir's domestic load factor is at 70%. They have done a lot of discounting, but I am confident that the company now has momentum. As for the international operations, they will have take a long, hard look, and see how they should proceed. First they will have to sort out the sales aspect.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 26):
How can a serious airline take delivery of a 767-300 and only put it to use 6 months after it was delivered?! And then fail so miserably at the first attempt in establishing a new route between SAO and MEX (two of the world's five largest cities). Let's not forget the domestic market. It's amazing how often you see up to four 'brand-new' Fokker 100 simply stored in hangars during peak seasons (i.e. public holidays, when all other airlines are offering charter flights, extra flights, etc.).

Any estimates how much Oceanair has lost keeping the B767-300 on the ground and the F100 stored during peak seasons? Would somebody explain how an airline (brandnew one) could not lose money keeping its aircraft from flying?

And going back to the topic, hope the MEX route does well for RG/G3 people, but it could be tough to re-gain their market share.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 28):
Any estimates how much Oceanair has lost keeping the B767-300 on the ground and the F100 stored during peak seasons? Would somebody explain how an airline (brandnew one) could not lose money keeping its aircraft from flying?

No doubt that it is a lot of money, both from lost revenue and fixed costs. But when businesses are being established, it it assumed that the investment has to go in well before a profit is turned. Up to a few years, in most airlines business plans.

Another example is Virgin America. A vast amount of money has gone into fleet, staff, training, state of the art (truly so)entertainment systems, branding etc, all of this was ready months before VX finally had the go ahead to start ops.
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 26):
As many here might know, Brazil is currently facing its worse corruption crisis ever.

Well, some other countries in the region, including mine, are facing the same dramatic and chaotic situation. It is like a transition taking place. Problem is the future looks so uncertain, and it seems we are running out of time here !!! Our LatAm societies need a shakedown and start to react promptly !!!

Marcelo, very interesting perspective of the problem you present us here with. I appreciate your inputs very much.

Best regards
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 27):
I also heard about the opening of a sales office in a large underprivilaged neighbourhood, and that they would offer credit facilities so that air travel is made more affordable. I don't see how this should arise suspicion.

It's agreable that the Brazilian Favelas do have an economic potential that very few and daring Brazilian business woud like to tap. But from there to set up an airline sales office in one, in time and age when airtickets are sold via telephone or internet, makes little sense. An airline office in a major bus terminal would make more sense.
And then my questions would be:
Which Brazilian financial institution works w/ Oceanair to offer credit facilites (juros) for travelers living in Favelas?
What % of the Oceanair all tickets and M.C.O. sold are paid with CASH?
 
SAOAP
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 27):

You got a point here: the authorities certainly haven't made it easy for OceanAir. Quite the opposite actually. Still, that doesn't explain why OceanAir doesn't use the planes during peak seasons (at least not the extent they should be).

The 767 story... Yes, the plane was wet-leased to TAAG for a while, but there were at least two-three months where the plane couldn't fly regularly simply because they lacked trained crew. Mismanagement? Definitely, but everything has limits. I remember that back in June-July OceanAir announced GRU-BSB-MAO and back. They were actually selling and marketing the route and from one moment to the next the route was discontinued (i.e. occasionally flown by a Fokker 100). Granted, the plane 763 left for TAAG for 2,5 weeks there, but one would have expected them to start flying with the plane right after it came back again. Instead it flew occasionally (not to say rarely) and was stored until the end of August before finally starting the flight to MEX.

Now, as for the domestic SLF of 70%, that is the result of the code-share OceanAir had with BRA. I'm actually more interested in seeing the October figures - remember that the code-share ended on 1-Oct. I'm still a bit skeptic, but who knows, maybe we'll be pleasently surprised.  Smile So far the market is actually recovering pretty well.

Quoting XA744 (Reply 30):

Horacio, let us hope that we can find solutions for the problems plaguing our region. I certainly wish for it as there really is so much potential here!

Cheers!

Marcelo
 
KLM685
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:51 pm

Wow, I'm impressed by Ocean's really bad performance. I can perfectly imagine the management of Ocean saying:

Staff1: ok so Aeromexico is taking all the cake... I think we should take something too
Staff2: I agree
Staff3: Ok so you know what would be awesome. To start the route ASAP before RG and AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ does and then we will position ourselves in the market very fast!
Staff2: wow...sounds like a plan
Staff1: and we match the prices with AM
Staff3: ok, let's do it

Just like watching Friends planning a route...

They had -1 marketing here. I know I sometimes don't get into the forum too much due to school, etc... But I just recently noticed they were here because I saw a picture in the database. No ads, no ads in the airport, newspapers, internet, etc...

What a sad case.

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 7):
The name of the airline is a bit weird, in fact, there is a bar in Mexico City with the same name!

LOL Ocean Drive might I say?!
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 31):
It's agreable that the Brazilian Favelas do have an economic potential that very few and daring Brazilian business woud like to tap. But from there to set up an airline sales office in one, in time and age when airtickets are sold via telephone or internet, makes little sense. An airline office in a major bus terminal would make more sense.

It is precisely bus travel that OceanAir wants to compete against. It reckons that in a favela of 250 thousand inhabitants, it has a potential of 30 thousand travellers for the December peak season, given that many dwellers come from north east Brazil and many go back to visit their families for the Christmas season.

There will be a financial institution to check the credit facility available to customers, who will have the open facility for tickets up to allowed limit, and this can be paid in up to 36 instalments.
As to why the opening of an office in the favella, rather than bank on internet, telephone and, necessarily, credit cards, I think that the answer is obvious: The penetration of credit cards in these neighbourhoods is probably negligable.
 
Neo
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Varig will resume it's daily service to Mexico City effective November 5th 2007.

Flights will depart São Paulo Guarulhos airport at 11 AM, landing at MEX 16:45 local time. In the way back, the flights will depart MEX airport at 18:45 arriving GRU at 0825.

RG8670 GRU 1100 MEX 1645
RG8671 MEX 1845 GRU 0825 (+1)

Did RG ever offer overnight flights in both directions to MEX before? Besides having a far better product AM has a good advantadge with the overnight flights.. It wil certainly be a tough job for RG, but I'm sure RG's strategy will be agressive, in terms of price and advertisement which will grant far better results than Oceanair's.

What is next for RG? I'd say they are closer to resuming secure their slots... MAD should come next and after US flights, MIA and JFK. When that is done, they should announce something about a new order, most likely 787s.

By the way, how many 767's have they got now?

Rgs,

Neo
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Neo (Reply 35):
Did RG ever offer overnight flights in both directions to MEX before?

Never, always with a single plane.

Quoting Neo (Reply 35):
What is next for RG? I'd say they are closer to resuming secure their slots... MAD should come next and after US flights, MIA and JFK. When that is done, they should announce something about a new order, most likely 787s.

MAD will be next, with 2 daily flights GRU-MAD to secure slots. MIA and JFK will be for march 2008.

Quoting Neo (Reply 35):
By the way, how many 767's have they got now?

Nowadays 5 as PR-VAB just arrived. Expected to receive PR-VAD and VAC during the next weeks.


Felipe
 
User avatar
ghost77
Posts: 4613
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
GRU-REC-DKR
GRU-REC-LIS-MAD-MXP
LIS-BPS-SSA
SSA-LIS
LIS-NAT-FOR
FOR-LIS
LIS-MAD-REC-GRU

They have lots of plans, but they change their schedule every week... BRA is facing problems, fights between their partners, financial problems... and ANAC just begin a complete on-site audit because of constant delays on domestic operations.

I never trust on them.

Hi LipeGIG!

Thanks a lot for your kind answer. So, they're going after TAP's dominated market as well as RG gap? Good routes i must say! Very nice to see BRA growing, but they're having financial problems and bringing Boeing 767s? You think they could at some time collapse? They have been steadily growing its fleet, do they have grounded frames? Isn't it a little awkward to start an audit and let them bring more planes and open new routes???

g77
 
SAOAP
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 37):

BRA was recently acquired by a new investor and has since started bringing in 'new' planes. They actually ordered some 40 E-Jets with deliveries programmed to start in the first half of 2008. Still, it remains to be seen whether they really have a consolidated strategy. If I'm not mistaken they have one or two grounded 733s. Elsewhere it'd definitely be considered odd that an airline was allowed to introduce new planes into the fleet while at the same time being audited, not in Brazil though...

Cheers!

Marcelo
 
Neo
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 36):
Nowadays 5 as PR-VAB just arrived. Expected to receive PR-VAD and VAC during the next weeks.

Felipe,

So with 5 x 763's RG flies:

2 on GRU-FRA
1 on GIG-FRA
2 on GRU-CDG-FCO

And PR-VAD and VAC, will be used to LHR and MEX?

I don't get it.. can you explain how are they using the 763?

Thanks.Neo
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:44 pm

GIG-GRU-FRA-GRU-GIG uses 2 nowadays
GIG-FRA is now suspended
GRU-CDG-FCO uses another 2

With the 5th, they should begin LHR together with number 6

And VAB (the sole 767-200ER) will be the one to handle MEX operations.

GIG-FRA returns by December with the 8th 767-300. MAD begins with 9th and 10th planes.

GIG become overnight both ways with 11th plane.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 37):
Very nice to see BRA growing, but they're having financial problems and bringing Boeing 767s?

They leased 2 Boeing 767-300ER (PP-VOI and PP-VOJ), ex-RG planes. Now under final steps at TAP Eng. GIG facilities.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 37):
You think they could at some time collapse?

They hold a very bad image in Europe after the CGN-GIG problems. Also yesterday or Saturday (don't know exactly) the 762 they are using face a bird strike just after depart LIS. With this two days of flights are delayed...

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 37):
They have been steadily growing its fleet, do they have grounded frames? Isn't it a little awkward to start an audit and let them bring more planes and open new routes???

They have, IIRC 2 733 and 1 763 grounded waiting for spare parts.
The problem is that, BRA is known in Brazil for their route changes, the service is simple, planes are older, and they also just decided to give up CGH operations in favor of GRU.

They also keep the plans for E-Jets, but IMO, they should receive one or two before saying the negotiation isn't that good for them and try to renegotiate with Embraer the terms of the agreement (of course, in their favor).

Felipe
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 40):
And VAB (the sole 767-200ER) will be the one to handle MEX operations.

The 762 is actually VAC.
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:57 am

C010T3

Thanks for the correction!

Felipe
 
User avatar
Fyano773
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:03 am

RE: Varig Returning To MEX

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 33):
LOL Ocean Drive might I say?!

Ooopppsss! You are very right  hyper ...

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 8):
Actually for Varig's proposed rotation you only need a single plane.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
Fyano, they need only one. The flight allows 2h of turn around in MEX and a little more in GRU.



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 10):
Only one is needed as noted before.

I concur that technically and practically is feasible, but that plane will average 18 daily hours in the air. The roundtrips will be very tight and in the event of a failure, bad weather or some check, cancellations of the next flights will come up.

For instance, a couple of weeks ago N774AM (ex PP-VRA, a 6 year old frame with low cycles) was diverted to NYC in the MEX-MAD run due to a technical problem; the plane arrived very late to MEX in the returning leg (5 hours late, close to midnight) and was very likely that (the next flight assigned in the rotation) MEX-GRU was affected as well. Fortunately, AM's plane usually sits idle for about 12 hours in GRU, so the plane overcomes easily for the subsequent flights.

The 767 has a nice dispatch rate but I wonder how reliable these old 767s are and whether 2 hours of turn around time in MEX and a bit more in GRU are enough to sustain a regular 7X operation. IIRC a vehla Varig used to rotate PP-VRC and PP-VRD to MEX.

Fyano

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