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SpencerII
Topic Author
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:15 pm

OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:49 pm

I guess the judge ruled in favor of the pilot and against SkyWest, and against a decision by OSHA in this case where the pilot declared himself unfit to fly. I guess the judge said the Chief Pilot at OO exhibited "retaliatory animus" by firing this pilot.


The complete article is listed here.

http://www.sltrib.com//ci_7154311?IA...arch-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:57 pm

Good call by the judge. Forcing a pilot to fly when he doesn't deem himself capable to is a very bad idea. I'm surprised to hear about this coming out of Skywest, which I've only heard good things about. I'd expect this from the likes of Mesa or Freedom Air, but not Skywest.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
acvitale
Posts: 1913
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:19 pm

Interesting article.

Appears to be good and bad on both sides...

Writing profantities on company equipment would seem a good way to get terminated.

The pilot can declare himself unfit to fly but not both crew members..

I do not think this is dead yet.

Sadly, The basis of his choice not to fly is sound. I would back him on that respect... The decision of the FO and FA not to fly is up to them to communicate not the Capt.

Profanities and such is unprofessional. It would be interesting to pull the actual decision and see what evidence was provided.

It is interesting that two reviews by "peers" were found in favor of Skywest additionally Capt Don took the case to OSHA and lost. On the fourth hearing he gains support. I would not be surprised if it is appealed.

The comments about the chief pilot are also relevant and will warrant a deeper review.

No ALPA needed and even if ALPA had been there I question if it would have made a difference.

[Edited 2007-10-12 13:43:16]
 
Goldenshield
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:39 pm

This decision proves that if you've been wronged, you can get the law on your side, proving that initiative, and not a union solved his issue.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
SpencerII
Topic Author
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:15 pm

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 2):
It is interesting that two reviews by "peers" were found in favor of Skywest additionally Capt Don took the case to OSHA and lost

I've heard that peer review is always the answer at SkyWest, including most of their other departments. I know in another instance with a former OO staff member in another department where the "company" (SkyWest) sets the stage for the peer review pretty much indicating the stance & direction the company wants the review to go.---then place it in the hands of employees. Do you really expect employees to be unbiased when the comapny cherry picks those to sit in on the review and in front of their superiors to not take the directon the company wants the review to go?
 
flyorski
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 2):
Writing profantities on company equipment would seem a good way to get terminated.

The article seemed to suggest that he was framed. He never actually wrote those things, according to a handwriting expert he hired. Also the airline only compared the handwriting to him, and not any other employees. They appeared to be creating a "ligament" reason to fire him.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:02 pm

This should flat out horrify the flying public. A very experienced pilot flew a difficult flight and then was instructed to repeat the trip 5 hours later... at 4:40am? In bad weather? Without prior notification? Everything else aside, that is just flat out asking for an NTSB Accident Report. Of course hindsight about the way he handled it is 20/20, but the situation stands simply at the fact that this is a dangerous situation no matter who the pilots are and he recognized this and tried to protect himself, his crew, and his passengers. He was then reprimanded, suspended, and ultimately fired?

Do you want to fly on an airline that fires its employees for making safety related decisions? (Even if they weren't perfect when you look back on it?)

I'd much rather have him as my pilot... someone who stands up for safety... than someone who bows into pressure from the company and ends up hitting the side of a mountain at 5am in a snowstorm.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
A very experienced pilot flew a difficult flight and then was instructed to repeat the trip 5 hours later... at 4:40am? In bad weather? Without prior notification?

Jackson Hole isn't that difficult an airport. It's very tame compared to some other airports that they fly to.

He was asked to try again when the weather would be expected to get better, and he was notified when he got back from his first attempt at JAC. They didn't wait until 0400 to tell him fly it.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):

I'd much rather have him as my pilot... someone who stands up for safety... than someone who bows into pressure from the company and ends up hitting the side of a mountain at 5am in a snowstorm.

Sounds to me like he was a stand-up crew. Rest wasn't an issue here (although his FO did say he was tired, but who knows whether he had just come on-line, or had been flying all day.)

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
Do you want to fly on an airline that fires its employees for making safety related decisions?

You mean like, landing a 737 at minimums on a short runway during a blizzard?
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
freshlove1
Posts: 1245
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:38 pm

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 7):
You mean like, landing a 737 at minimums on a short runway during a blizzard?

Yeah and you see what happens when this situation occurs. Better to be safe then sorry.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 7):
He was asked to try again when the weather would be expected to get better, and he was notified when he got back from his first attempt at JAC. They didn't wait until 0400 to tell him fly it.



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 7):
Sounds to me like he was a stand-up crew. Rest wasn't an issue here (although his FO did say he was tired, but who knows whether he had just come on-line, or had been flying all day.)



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 7):
You mean like, landing a 737 at minimums on a short runway during a blizzard?

I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain more please. I think I might have more to say.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
freshlove1
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 9):
am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain more please. I think I might have more to say.

I think he is talking about the WN accident in MDW if I read it correctly.
 
peh
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:57 am

The pilot should be commended, not fired. If I feel unwell, I can call in sick and I work at a desk. No one dies if I fall asleep. Shame on SkyWest.
Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
 
jayspilot
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:32 pm

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:52 pm

This is a perfect example of why ALPA or another union is worth it. This pilot was left to fight on his own for his rights and was hung out to dry by his Airline. With no Union, things are great when everyone agrees, but when it is the company vs one pilot things get lop sided quickly.
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:01 pm

Don was not fired for calling in sick or unfit for his trip.

[Edited 2007-10-13 07:13:09]
 
acvitale
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
This should flat out horrify the flying public. A very experienced pilot flew a difficult flight and then was instructed to repeat the trip 5 hours later... at 4:40am? In bad weather? Without prior notification? Everything else aside, that is just flat out asking for an NTSB Accident Report. Of course hindsight about the way he handled it is 20/20, but the situation stands simply at the fact that this is a dangerous situation no matter who the pilots are and he recognized this and tried to protect himself, his crew, and his passengers. He was then reprimanded, suspended, and ultimately fired?

Do you want to fly on an airline that fires its employees for making safety related decisions? (Even if they weren't perfect when you look back on it?)

I'd much rather have him as my pilot... someone who stands up for safety... than someone who bows into pressure from the company and ends up hitting the side of a mountain at 5am in a snowstorm.

It is clear the issue was NOT that he chose not to fly. The issue was the profanities and graffiti on company property. I would find it interesting to see the actual evidence. Three groups including OSHA found he did write profanities on company property. Only this judge differred. It will be interesting to follow. But, It is clear at NO POINT was he terminated for refusing the trip. He was repremanded for calling in the full crew. Each crew member should call themselves in not the captain making a call for all of them. He responded to the reprimand with profanities and graffiti on company owned property.

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 12):
This is a perfect example of why ALPA or another union is worth it. This pilot was left to fight on his own for his rights and was hung out to dry by his Airline. With no Union, things are great when everyone agrees, but when it is the company vs one pilot things get lop sided quickly.

Oh Please.... He was NOT terminated for refusing the flight. If ALPA is going to defend pilots writing profanities on company property, then.....

ALPA is not and was not a part of this and it would not have made a difference. How many pilots were terminated in the last 10 years per 1000 at Skywest, at ASA, at Comair... Sorry, the fact is more pilots were terminated at ALPA unionized COMAIR then SKYWEST. The argument is moot.
 
drewwright
Posts: 530
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 12):
This is a perfect example of why ALPA or another union is worth it. This pilot was left to fight on his own for his rights and was hung out to dry by his Airline. With no Union, things are great when everyone agrees, but when it is the company vs one pilot things get lop sided quickly.

I have to agree. A pilot that calls in fatigued for legitimate reasons will be backed 110% by the union and fellow pilots. There is a great deal of anti-union sentiment on this forum, but this case is a classic example of why unions are necessary in our industry. This guy called in fatigued, was framed with bogus charges, and was then left to his own devices. It never would have gone that far if this happened at a unionized company. If I call in fatigued or otherwise unfit to fly, I feel confident that the union and the FAR's will back me up.
 
highflier92660
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RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Jud

Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:59 pm

This story contains interesting interpersonal elements apart from the superficial airline safety issues of duty time and flying a turboprop into known icing conditions. Further, whether or not Captain Don Douglas should be reinstated should be determined by a judicial official that is knowledgeable in airline operations and meteorology. The article says nothing of Judge Russell Pulver's background.

Reading through this and other postings on the Internet one gets the impression of a personality clash taking place between a guy in his late forties still stuck flying regional airline Brazilias all hours of the night, through wintertime cold fronts, into mountainous airports, and his slightly younger Chief Pilot who, when he isn't at SkyWest, is flying a helicopter for a Salt Lake television station and getting media face time as Mr. Super Pilot.

It isn't difficult to extrapolate that Captain Douglas on the night in question probably didn't ooze aeronautical enthusiasm as he checked into dispatch. His attitude, after checking the JAC meteorological conditions, could have become infectious. His F/O came down with a sudden onset of cronic fatique syndrome and their flight attendant Brandee Black reported her arthritis becoming particularly acute. SkyWest was becoming the regional airline equivalent of the National Football League injury reserve list. But they fought through physical distress like dedicated airline employees and off they went to Jackson Hole.

And what did they get for all their effort? ATC gave them a holding pattern, perhaps while they attempt to clear the snow on the JAC runway or the winds/crosswind component lowered to acceptable landing standards. Sometime between a teardrop entry into the holding pattern and the decision to return to SLC it's not a stretch to say the Brazilia cockpit became infected with a profusion of BAD WORDS. Yes profanity; about their airline's dispatch, management and his brown nosing Chief Pilot in particular and maybe life in general. As he checked for rime ice accumulation and his Brazilia's fuel supply, the thought may have crossed Captain Douglas that (well into his forties) he was flying a [email protected]# [email protected]#n 30 passenger turboprop into Jackson Hole instead of a Boeing 747-400 into Sydney or Paris. As the evening wore on toward midnight the fatigued and psychologically drained crew diverted back to Salt Lake. In the dark and silent cockpit Captain Don Douglas felt a dull ache, a painful throbbing sensation grow...and grow between his loins. The physician was wrong about the degree of discomfort his vasectomy operation would yield; his balls hurt like hell!

When the crew blocked-in back at SLC and completed their paperwork what was their reward? A flight back to JAC through the same weather scheduled five hours later at 4:40 am. The odds of that crew accepting that flight were as likely as turkeys flying with eagles.
 
checksixx
Posts: 1234
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 2):
Writing profantities on company equipment would seem a good way to get terminated.

The pilot can declare himself unfit to fly but not both crew members..

Yes, that would be a good way to get fired...and Yes, the PIC can declare himself and others unfit to fly (at least in the US anyways). Just because the PIC may not be right, doesn't mean they don't have the power to do it.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 15):
I have to agree. A pilot that calls in fatigued for legitimate reasons will be backed 110% by the union and fellow pilots. There is a great deal of anti-union sentiment on this forum, but this case is a classic example of why unions are necessary in our industry. This guy called in fatigued, was framed with bogus charges, and was then left to his own devices. It never would have gone that far if this happened at a unionized company. If I call in fatigued or otherwise unfit to fly, I feel confident that the union and the FAR's will back me up.

He was terminated many months later (I believe six) and it had to do with the profanities and defacing company property... It had nothing to do with refusing the trip. I think that was made clear in the hearings, OSHA and review panels. It is grasping at this unrelated issue that people are attempting to justify the behavior.

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 16):
This story contains interesting interpersonal elements apart from the superficial airline safety issues of duty time and flying a turboprop into known icing conditions. Further, whether or not Captain Don Douglas should be reinstated should be determined by a judicial official that is knowledgeable in airline operations and meteorology. The article says nothing of Judge Russell Pulver's background.

Reading through this and other postings on the Internet one gets the impression of a personality clash taking place between a guy in his late forties still stuck flying regional airline Brazilias all hours of the night, through wintertime cold fronts, into mountainous airports, and his slightly younger Chief Pilot who, when he isn't at SkyWest, is flying a helicopter for a Salt Lake television station and getting media face time as Mr. Super Pilot.

It isn't difficult to extrapolate that Captain Douglas on the night in question probably didn't ooze aeronautical enthusiasm as he checked into dispatch. His attitude, after checking the JAC meteorological conditions, could have become infectious. His F/O came down with a sudden onset of cronic fatique syndrome and their flight attendant Brandee Black reported her arthritis becoming particularly acute. SkyWest was becoming the regional airline equivalent of the National Football League injury reserve list. But they fought through physical distress like dedicated airline employees and off they went to Jackson Hole.

And what did they get for all their effort? ATC gave them a holding pattern, perhaps while they attempt to clear the snow on the JAC runway or the winds/crosswind component lowered to acceptable landing standards. Sometime between a teardrop entry into the holding pattern and the decision to return to SLC it's not a stretch to say the Brazilia cockpit became infected with a profusion of BAD WORDS. Yes profanity; about their airline's dispatch, management and his brown nosing Chief Pilot in particular and maybe life in general. As he checked for rime ice accumulation and his Brazilia's fuel supply, the thought may have crossed Captain Douglas that (well into his forties) he was flying a [email protected]# [email protected]#n 30 passenger turboprop into Jackson Hole instead of a Boeing 747-400 into Sydney or Paris. As the evening wore on toward midnight the fatigued and psychologically drained crew diverted back to Salt Lake. In the dark and silent cockpit Captain Don Douglas felt a dull ache, a painful throbbing sensation grow...and grow between his loins. The physician was wrong about the degree of discomfort his vasectomy operation would yield; his balls hurt like hell!

When the crew blocked-in back at SLC and completed their paperwork what was their reward? A flight back to JAC through the same weather scheduled five hours later at 4:40 am. The odds of that crew accepting that flight were as likely as turkeys flying with eagles.

Absolutely spot on! Agreed! He would have been wrong to take the trip in HIS medical condition.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 17):
Yes, the PIC can declare himself and others unfit to fly (at least in the US anyways). Just because the PIC may not be right, doesn't mean they don't have the power to do it.

But not at OO
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:22 am

All you people making judgements about what happened and why Don should or shouldn't have been fired or how SkyWest fires pilots who refuses trips due to illness or fatigue don't know the whole story. He was not fired for calling in unfit, period. I suggest you get a copy of the 49 page court document that details what transpired instead of speculating or pontificating about things you don't know about.

I
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:39 am

There is no way the profanities are the reason why he was fired. Maybe they were the "official" reason that management was looking for to fire him, but they were not what he was actually terminated over.

My workplace is covered in profanities... our crewroom walls, posted memos from the company, bathroom walls, inside of the cargo holds, etc... they've all been scribbled on. No, I don't like it and I'm not defending it, but if management was firing people over it... you'd see people being escorted out the front door every single day.

Management had it out for this pilot but couldn't fire him over something safety related, so they found another (superficial) reason.

As far as him calling in for the whole crew, the PIC is the one ultimately responsible for the safe operation of the flight. Can you imagine how hard he would be hung out to dry if he had heard and witnessed the fatigue of his other crewmembers, then only called himself in fatigued and they did the flight and an accident occured? The NTSB, FAA, and company would be coming after him with pitchforks and torches in hand.

He made a difficult and unpopular decision, but it was the right one. I personally commend him... this is what being a successful captain (and leader in general) is all about.
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 14):
t is clear the issue was NOT that he chose not to fly. The issue was the profanities and graffiti on company property. I would find it interesting to see the actual evidence. Three groups including OSHA found he did write profanities on company property. Only this judge differred. It will be interesting to follow. But, It is clear at NO POINT was he terminated for refusing the trip. He was repremanded for calling in the full crew. Each crew member should call themselves in not the captain making a call for all of them. He responded to the reprimand with profanities and graffiti on company owned property.



Quoting ACVitale (Reply 14):
Oh Please.... He was NOT terminated for refusing the flight. If ALPA is going to defend pilots writing profanities on company property, then.....

ALPA is not and was not a part of this and it would not have made a difference. How many pilots were terminated in the last 10 years per 1000 at Skywest, at ASA, at Comair... Sorry, the fact is more pilots were terminated at ALPA unionized COMAIR then SKYWEST. The argument is moot.

Please PROVE to me that he wrote the profanities........


They Canned him b/c they are pissed off he lost money for the company by not flying.... Skywest does not want "Safe" pilots, they want pilots that will make them money...

If he flew, and the plane crashed, insurance would pay back more then the loss, including lawsuits, and the plane crash would have been blamed on "Fatigue", Skywest would have walked away with ZERO loss and no bad publicity... These corporate jack asses care more about money then lives, and it is very clear to me that the reason they fired him was b/c of the self-grounding. Besides, there is no evidence to link him to the profanities aside from here-say...
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 21):
They Canned him b/c they are pissed off he lost money for the company by not flying.... Skywest does not want "Safe" pilots, they want pilots that will make them money...

Do you work for SkyWest? Have you read the court document? Do you know Don or anyone else involved with the case? I didn't think so.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 22):
Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 21):
They Canned him b/c they are pissed off he lost money for the company by not flying.... Skywest does not want "Safe" pilots, they want pilots that will make them money...

Do you work for SkyWest? Have you read the court document? Do you know Don or anyone else involved with the case? I didn't think so.

I'm going to have to back up BlueSkys on this one. My company makes decisions DAILY in the name of costs that decrease safety. Its kind of the running joke around this place that we always fly safe, unless it costs extra.
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 23):
I'm going to have to back up BlueSkys on this one. My company makes decisions DAILY in the name of costs that decrease safety. Its kind of the running joke around this place that we always fly safe, unless it costs extra.

Then I suggest you read the court document and educate yourself as to what happened. I really don't know what you or BlueSkys are basing your comments on since you obviously do not work for SkyWest (and therefore do not know any of the parties involved) and do not know all the facts.
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 16):
It isn't difficult to extrapolate that Captain Douglas on the night in question probably didn't ooze aeronautical enthusiasm as he checked into dispatch. His attitude, after checking the JAC meteorological conditions, could have become infectious. His F/O came down with a sudden onset of cronic fatique syndrome and their flight attendant Brandee Black reported her arthritis becoming particularly acute. SkyWest was becoming the regional airline equivalent of the National Football League injury reserve list. But they fought through physical distress like dedicated airline employees and off they went to Jackson Hole.

Really? Do you work for SkyWest dispatch and talked to Don that night? Do you work in crew support and talked to Don? Were you the MOD that night and talked to Don? You are doing nothing but speculating about what happenend and the timeline of what happened.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 24):
Then I suggest you read the court document and educate yourself as to what happened. I really don't know what you or BlueSkys are basing your comments on since you obviously do not work for SkyWest (and therefore do not know any of the parties involved) and do not know all the facts.

Do you work for Skywest? Have you read the court document? If so then please educate us. I may not work for skywest but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how a company works and to an extent yes companies worry about the bottomline and thats about it. Now you can say that all they do is speculate, but give me something to say that you aren't speculating. I will also add that probably 90% of the stuff on this forum is speculation so it is kind of the territory your in so I would have to say deal with it.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:14 pm

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 21):
Please PROVE to me that he wrote the profanities........


They Canned him b/c they are pissed off he lost money for the company by not flying.... Skywest does not want "Safe" pilots, they want pilots that will make them money...

If he flew, and the plane crashed, insurance would pay back more then the loss, including lawsuits, and the plane crash would have been blamed on "Fatigue", Skywest would have walked away with ZERO loss and no bad publicity... These corporate jack asses care more about money then lives, and it is very clear to me that the reason they fired him was b/c of the self-grounding. Besides, there is no evidence to link him to the profanities aside from here-say...

Now you have crossed the line. Your statements are libelous and factually incorrect. The firing incident occurred seven months after the decision not to fly. The original handwriting anaylsis tied him to the profanities. Skywest very much wants safe pilots and they care about their reputation. You must work in a miserable enviorment to feel the way you do. Suggest you spend the lousy $.04 per page to download the file from Pacer. For a lousy $2.00 you can educate yourself and not make yourself look so foolish to anyone who did look at the file. Really it is online for a lousy $.04 a page take a look..... You can even search and read the synopsis for free!

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 20):
There is no way the profanities are the reason why he was fired. Maybe they were the "official" reason that management was looking for to fire him, but they were not what he was actually terminated over.

And what factual information can you base this on... Go ahead and educate us...

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 20):
My workplace is covered in profanities... our crewroom walls, posted memos from the company, bathroom walls, inside of the cargo holds, etc... they've all been scribbled on. No, I don't like it and I'm not defending it, but if management was firing people over it... you'd see people being escorted out the front door every single day.

Must stink to work where you do... Sorry to hear you work in such a horrible enviorment. Fortunately, Not every carrier is like yours... Maybe you should have applied at OO instead...

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 20):
He made a difficult and unpopular decision, but it was the right one. I personally commend him... this is what being a successful captain (and leader in general) is all about.

No one argues that he made the correct choice in not flying.. See the many posts above. On the otherhand if you are arguing the defacing the wall and boards with profanities are acceptable then we disagree!
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 26):
Do you work for Skywest? Have you read the court document? If so then please educate us. I may not work for skywest but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how a company works and to an extent yes companies worry about the bottomline and thats about it. Now you can say that all they do is speculate, but give me something to say that you aren't speculating. I will also add that probably 90% of the stuff on this forum is speculation so it is kind of the territory your in so I would have to say deal with it.

Yes I work for SkyWest and yes, I have read the court document. I suggest you do the same and find out why Don was terminated (unfairly) instead of telling me what happened based on what goes on at your company or because of a newspaper article headline/thread title.
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:35 am

Good job Judge. I feel the same way. If the captian states he himself and his flight crew are unfit to fly. Then that should be the end of it. Safety is always number 1 in this business....
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:52 am

Alright, I was trying not to post here, but lets get one thing straight. There is no rason to believe DD wrote the profanities. Yes, the "experts" said he was a match, but they were large block letters (like the kind you write by clenching your writing utensile with your fist), and NO OTHER SUSPECTS WERE ANYLISZED. Everyone who was based, had been based in SLC, or who knew TF should have been a suspect. He was that popular.

The "peer" review board is a joke. except without the funny.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 27):
Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 21):
Please PROVE to me that he wrote the profanities........


They Canned him b/c they are pissed off he lost money for the company by not flying.... Skywest does not want "Safe" pilots, they want pilots that will make them money...

If he flew, and the plane crashed, insurance would pay back more then the loss, including lawsuits, and the plane crash would have been blamed on "Fatigue", Skywest would have walked away with ZERO loss and no bad publicity... These corporate jack asses care more about money then lives, and it is very clear to me that the reason they fired him was b/c of the self-grounding. Besides, there is no evidence to link him to the profanities aside from here-say...

Now you have crossed the line

Really? I was not aware there was a line to cross... Next time let me know in advance and i will pole vault over it for your amusment.

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 22):
Do you work for SkyWest? Have you read the court document? Do you know Don or anyone else involved with the case? I didn't think so.

Do you, Have you, and do you? I will wait for you answer before assumng that you dont...  

[Edited 2007-10-14 20:03:21]
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 27):
The original handwriting anaylsis tied him to the profanities

The Handwriting analysis was done by people hired by SkyWest... I am sure you have heard of a "Conflict of Interest"? I hope you can see how this would be.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 27):
You must work in a miserable enviroment to feel the way you do

.

Nope!  cloudnine  But thank you for the concern, really heartfelt..
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 31):
Do you, Have you, and do you? I will wait for you answer before assumng that you dont...

Yes on all three questions. What else would you like to know?
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 14):

Oh Please.... He was NOT terminated for refusing the flight. If ALPA is going to defend pilots writing profanities on company property, then.....

ALPA is not and was not a part of this and it would not have made a difference. How many pilots were terminated in the last 10 years per 1000 at Skywest, at ASA, at Comair... Sorry, the fact is more pilots were terminated at ALPA unionized COMAIR then SKYWEST. The argument is moot.

How much longer are you going to keep posting this BS. From another site from which some actual statistics were seen:

"Even the sapa disciplinary rep would refute this claim with facts. The facts coming directly from the guy who has these statistics as recently shown on the sapa board state that over 30 skywest pilots have been fired during the past two years. The number of pilots fired at skywest is almost equal to all the other alpa carriers combined. These are the facts and they are indisputable."

I would also like to note that Don had been working at OO for 16 years without ONE disciplinary or training problem and even wrote a "pleading letter" to the CEO asking for his job back. Apparently he WAS anti-ALPA and loved flying at Skywest.

On a lighter note however:

Douglas: You want answers?

Fizer : I think I'm entitled to them.

Douglas: You want answers?

Fizer: I want the truth!

Douglas: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has weather. And those releases have to be flown by men with alertness. Who's gonna do it? You Fizer? You, Ms Human Resources? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for cancellations and you curse the pilots. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that cancelled leg, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that flight. You need me on that flight.
We use words like honor, hand writing experts, ALPA...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a stand up and fly in bad weather. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

Fizer: Did you call in fatigue?

Douglas: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do.

Fizer: Did you call in fatigue?

Douglas: You're %&$#damn right I did!!
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 28):

Yes I work for SkyWest and yes, I have read the court document. I suggest you do the same and find out why Don was terminated (unfairly) instead of telling me what happened based on what goes on at your company or because of a newspaper article headline/thread title.

Don't worry. I believe MPD stands for Mesa Pilot Development. He'll come around after trying to sleep on a CRJ on a 5 hour stand-up overnight.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: OO Pilot Who Grounded Himself Is Backed By Judge

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 33):
Yes on all three questions. What else would you like to know?

Why is the sky blue?  confused 

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