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planenutz
Topic Author
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Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:28 am

I was fortunte to be able to fly on an F ticket from FRA to LAX this past Oct. 10. Minimum check in times for F pax was 60 min. I arrived a full2 hours before my LH flight thinking that I could habg out and enjoy LH's excellent First Class Terminal. My hotel shuttle only drops pax off at Terminals 1 and 2. I proceed to the F class check in area in Terminal 1 and have to wait for 15 min to check in. I request to be transferred to the F Class Terminal, but was told that becuase I was traveling to the USA it would be best if I proceed straight to departures as soon as possible. I agree and head towards security where, again, even in the dedicated F class lane, I wait 20 min to get through security. I ten proceed through passport contral, where again, theres a line and it takes 10 min to get through. Once finished I look around for a bit in the shops and then head towards the gate. I'm then contronted with a second security check by the B gates where flights to the USA depart. Again, a line and a loong wait. After this second security check, LH has an access point where they check all documents ensuring proper visas as well as getting address information from non-residents entering the USA. Finally I make it to the gate area and head upstairs to the lounge where I'm only able to spend about 20 min as flights to the USA board a full hour prior to departure. After going to the gate and waiting in the holding area we're allowed to board where as pax are going down the jetway, police a ramdomly pulling people aside for questions and a search of hand baggage.

I've traveled through many European airrports and have yet to encounter so many layers of security. What other airports segregate USA departures and put pax through such lengthy securoty checks? When I travelled though CDG on AF to SFO last January, I made it from curbside to gate in about 15 min.
Not all who wander are lost....
 
KSYR
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:45 am

FRA has always been on edge; PA 103 departed from FRA-LHR before it was bombed en route to JFK. Add that to 9/11 and FRA has good reason to be strict on trans-atlantic flights. Sorry you had a bad experience though...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:01 am

Yes, sorry too for the bad experience.

But that "FRA has always been on the edge" is a bit gross. PA103 depoarted here as a 727 feeder flight connecting to the 747 at LHR. True, the bomb luggage was loaded here as well, connecting from MLA. Since, the procedures have been changed and no bag is loaded without the mtaching pax having boarded the flight.

The security is imposed by the USA, TSA requires ist in detail. Same applies for trips to the UK.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
commavia
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:08 am

Yeah, and in my experience, Frankfurt isn't exactly the easiest airport in the world to navigate, either, to say the least. Not nearly as chaotic and screwed up as Heathrow (few airports are), but certainly no Singapore, for example, either.
 
Airlineanorak
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:59 am

I have to say that I flew FRA - LAX with LH in First Class last month and I had the completely opposite experience. There was no queue at the zone B First Class check in area and then I walked the 5 mins round to the First Class Terminal (it's quicker than waiting on their transfer car, but it's not the prettiest of walks passed the sea of taxis!).

It is a shame, the First Class Terminal is simply the best lounge I've every been in. I did arrive at check in a full 3 hours before the scheduled departure time to make sure I had time to spend there. Have a look at my Trip Report:
LH First Class LHR-FRA-LAX (by Airlineanorak Sep 28 2007 in Trip Reports)
 
hornetfan
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
The security is imposed by the USA, TSA requires ist in detail. Same applies for trips to the UK.

Whilst not quite as drastic the checks were fairly similar to those we underwent when flying from AKL to LAX on NZ. The only difference was the Check in person taking our address details at that point.

If you think this is bad, try flying from Las Vegas to San Francisco. 1 hour for security checks on an internal flight!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:32 am

Pretty much most flights to the US are like this, although flights on actual US carriers are worse - they have rent-a-cops at the gate asking you who owns your luggage and how dare you have Tunisian and Moroccan stamps in your passport. It's very tedious and completely unnecessary.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
jm017
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting KSYR (Reply 1):
Add that to 9/11 and FRA has good reason to be strict on trans-atlantic flights. Sorry you had a bad experience though..

Please. I flew into FRA on 2-Sept, connecting for a flight to SPU (flight arrived from IAD). How many times was my passport checked? NOT ONCE.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Yeah, and in my experience, Frankfurt isn't exactly the easiest airport in the world to navigate, either, to say the least

This is probably why my passport wasn't checked once.

By the way, on the return, my passport was checked 4 times. I went through three security check points. They even scanned my passport in a store where I bought candy. I am thinking this is typical security at European airports.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
airbazar
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting JM017 (Reply 7):
Please. I flew into FRA on 2-Sept, connecting for a flight to SPU (flight arrived from IAD). How many times was my passport checked? NOT ONCE.

Please read the posts again. These strict and overzealous security checks apply to flights to the US only.
FRA can be tougher because of the sheer volume of flights to the US departing from same same terminal peer. Still that doesn't excuse the delay to F passengers.
 
levg79
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:43 pm

Being a first class passenger does not exempt you from security checks. Keep in mind that 9/11 hijackers all flew first class so a lesson must be learned. Security checks and passport controls should not discriminate against economy class passengers. Everyone should be subject to the same security regulations.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
helvknight
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:44 pm

When you fly from the C pier (UA) at FRA you get the extra search but it is a hand wanding instead of running you through a metal detector. The last time I arrived in reasonable time (connecting from ZRH) but nearly missed my flight due to the overzealous security.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
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mats
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:24 pm

Frankfurt is by far the most extreme of any European airport, and I don't quite understand why. My guess is that they want to have a very VISIBLE security structure. The steps are:

1. Security interview prior to check-in
2. Possible manual search of checked baggage
3. Regular Frankfurt security metal detector/x-ray (this can often involve frisking--they like that in Frankfurt)
4. Special metal detector/x-ray for US departures (another frisking opportunity). It's pretty much the same as step 3
5. Security interview prior to entering the gate
6. Possible metal detectors, checked baggage search at the gate
7. Additional random interview, frisking, hand baggage inspection on the jetway

It's completely over-the-top, time-consuming, intrusive, and labor intensive. It's bad enought that it makes me avoid Frankfurt for any flight involving travel to the USA or Middle East.

Compare this to Tel Aviv, where there is one interview, one metal detector, and that's it. It's so much quicker.
 
SNATH
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Planenutz (Thread starter):
I arrived a full2 hours before my LH flight thinking that I could habg out and enjoy LH's excellent First Class Terminal. My hotel shuttle only drops pax off at Terminals 1 and 2. I proceed to the F class check in area in Terminal 1 and have to wait for 15 min to check in.

You would have saved yourself all that hassle if you had gone directly to the F class terminal and check in there. Could you have asked the hotel shuttle to maybe do a quick stop at the F class terminal. Alternatively, you could have got a cag directly there. Now, you'll know for next time.  Smile

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
jm017
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 8):
Please read the posts again. These strict and overzealous security checks apply to flights to the US only. FRA can be tougher because of the sheer volume of flights to the US departing from same same terminal peer. Still that doesn't excuse the delay to F passengers.

Minus the random police check, it sounds much like what I went through at MUC on my return flight. The only difference was I didn't have that long a wait at each check point in MUC. I was probably fortunate to have checked in at SPU.

I agree with the need for these checks, especially on US-bound flights. As a passenger, one needs to factor these delays and check in far enough in advance to account for such delays. Doesn't matter what class the passenger is flying.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:02 pm

I just flew FRA to PHL three days ago. Security was tight. The reason for the reported differences in levels of FRA security here on A.Net may be due to a single reason; daily threat assessment. FRA based flights have reportedly been targeted on multiple occasions. I was mildly annoyed at first. Then I reminded myself of PA 103... and of course 9/11. Everyone had a good attitude. Staff was professional and courteous, I think it's important to remember that this level of security is meant to deter potential threats, Deterrence by its very nature is a pain in the behind. But t works. Like any other avaition operation safety has to be the primary concern.
 
levent
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:51 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Since, the procedures have been changed and no bag is loaded without the mtaching pax having boarded the flight

In these days of suicide bombers, this procedure seems to have lost its meaning as well...
 
nyc2theworld
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting Levent (Reply 15):
In these days of suicide bombers, this procedure seems to have lost its meaning as well...

Which is why you scan their luggage for explosives also. Find explosives in luggage, not only have you stopped an terrorist attack, but you now have someone you can interrogate to find out more information. As opposed to someone checking in, leaving their luggage on the plane and now you have an attack and little else except a PNR to go on.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 11):

Compare this to Tel Aviv, where there is one interview, one metal detector, and that's it. It's so much quicker.

Tel Aviv does have the advantage of a new infrastructure (where much of the security apparatii are built in) that Frankfurt does not have.
Home airport now: DCA/IAD
 
caspritz78
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:02 pm

The second security screening for LH flights to the United States has probably somthing to do with connecting passenger. I guess with the second screening Frankfurt and LH make sure that every passenger is screened according to the TSA requirements.

If you fly United or Singapore Airlines from FRA to the United States you go only through one screening. I don't know how it is with the other American carrieers leaving from Termional 2.
 
daron4000
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:17 pm

It's too bad that you had a bad experience in FRA because really, none of this would have happened had you gone to the First Class Terminal. Security, passport control and check-in are all done at different places that take approximately 5 minutes total; the rest of the time can be spent relaxing in the nicest airline lounge in the world, followed by a direct limo transfer to your plane, skipping the horrible B peir. You really should have insisted to be taken to the FCT; ultimately it would have been a much nicer experience.
 
VSlover
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:12 pm

i had a similar experience last week. i flew from THF to BRU and the security at THF was almost non-existant, that it was odd.

but transferring at BRU to my BRU-ORD flight i had to go through security again, and another time at the gate. at the gate i was questioned very little, but the lady next to me was being asked so much like "how many years have you owned your luggage" or "do you remember where you purchased your luggage" and whatnot. it was very interesting.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:29 pm

Also, isnt FRA, unlike other airports in very, very, very close proximity to a US miitary base? Maybe that is factored in too. I agree that FRA has more check points etc. etc. Though I have not been to LHR since the security alert there, over a year ago.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:41 pm

Compare this to KL AMS-JFK. Just a normal check at the gate, no rent a cops, no questioning, and a pleasant 6:30 flight on a 747.
What now?
 
Qazar
Posts: 200
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:50 pm

I kinda enjoy the frisking....

Jokes aside, though... Can you guarantee that the first security check caught every dangerous article in the bags of all passengers' hand luggage at a dense airport like Frankfurt? Can you guarantee that all the employees handling security are competent? Can you guarantee that they're all having a good day... or a vigilant day? The more checks you put, the more chances you have in catching something that shouldn't be there. We all do mistakes at one point or another in our jobs, and I can guarantee you that not everyone in this world is competent at their job... not even airport security personnel. If the extra security in FRA will prevent a terrorist, or at least deter him, from boarding my flight, FRA just got my business even if it cost me an extra hour of line-ups.

If I were to suggest to you that New York, Boston, and Washington had implemented those same security checks on September 10th 2001, 9/11 would still be just the number you call in an emergency.

We don't live in the same world we used to live in 20, 15 or even 6 years ago, and we all have to give a little something to ensure that our lives aren't threatened or lost because someone missed something. If that cost is 1 hour to my time, well so be it.

I've flown many airlines in my days, but never feel more secure on a flight as I do on a LH flight or when I take-off from FRA... I'm sure they'd rather reduce all these security costs themselves, but if they're still there odds are that they have been tested and are justified.

Cheers!
 
LH431
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:06 pm

Sad to hear that story, especially as a LH First Class Passenger. It's not like at airports where LH has only one flight per day and there is no infrastructure for the premium classes(e.g. in India).
FRA is the main hub and they have real First Class facilities.
Very poor answer from the Check In Agent! Actually its a shame! The long queue results probably because of many LH Senators and Star Alliance Gold Card holders who can use the F/C Check In.
You can walk to the First Class Terminal(FCT) within 5-7min if you don't want to wait for a shuttle.
I mean, even on www.lufthansa.com they say: "First Class Terminal Frankfurt - In 30 minutes from the car to the aircraft. No matter if it is Europe or the USA.". Absolutely no problem, as everything there is relaxed and fast.
I hope you enjoyed the flight and LH's F-Service. Next time you are smarter! I recommend flyertalk.com regarding information and tips that are not written or told by Airline Staff.
There is a better way to fly
 
burnsie28
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):
Pretty much most flights to the US are like this, although flights on actual US carriers are worse - they have rent-a-cops at the gate asking you who owns your luggage and how dare you have Tunisian and Moroccan stamps in your passport. It's very tedious and completely unnecessary.

They didn't have that when I flew FRA-DTW on NW in January, or FRA-ATL on DL in 2002.

Quoting Mats (Reply 11):
Frankfurt is by far the most extreme of any European airport, and I don't quite understand why.

I agree, it took them 30 minutes to do security on me. They wiped, more or less vacuumed, and scanned my camera, the lenses, my computer and even my power cord.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
The security is imposed by the USA, TSA requires ist in detail. Same applies for trips to the UK.

I find that hard to believe since even the TSA doesn't do as much security as they do in FRA.
 
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TK787
Posts: 4771
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:50 pm

TK and DL nonstops to JFK from IST get a special security check at a designated room at IST and again at the gate. But all my connecting flights out of IST to JFK, like AZ via MXP, AF via CDG, KL via AMS don't have anything like that. So on the nonstops I physically have to open my suitcases and all, but if connecting don't have to.
 
PanHAM
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 17):

Tel Aviv does have the advantage of a new infrastructure (where much of the security apparatii are built in) that Frankfurt does not have.

you forget the first check point. If you board a taxi at the Hotel and the secuity agent there ask the cab driver where he picked you up and he mentions the hotel, my experience isd that they wave through. The next procedure is very swift and efficient,but checking in an TLV means you are leaving that country. Going to Israel, especially on LY, means you get the full procedure, much tougher than flying to the US.

Flying LH to Israel is about the same procedure as to the US, the C check-in area handles US destinations and TLV.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 25):

I find that hard to believe since even the TSA doesn't do as much security as they do in FRA.

Same as in Israel, they don't require it leaving the country, they require it for flights to the US. I go freqently to the UK and always have double checks here, never at LHR. It's not the German authorities however, since all other destinations except the 3 mnentioned require only 1 security check point
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Av8rDAL
Posts: 365
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:27 pm

FRA and MUC are some of the tightest security I've ever experienced when flying to the US. You really need to give yourself 3 full hours to get through it all. I've gone through thinking 2 hours was sufficient to check in and hit Duty Free, but more often than not I've found myself looking at my watch a few times after leaving duty free only to find even more security checkpoints. Approached the gate as the flights were boarding: close call!

I'm not complaining though. If FraPort and Munich Airport (private companies) think they can achieve 'security' in such a way, then fine. It sure pales in comparison to some of the people we have working the TSA checkpoints in the USA. Unfortunately, I see them just as mere government bureaucrats who are paid to bother people and/or just stand around and look official.
Maintain thine airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20701
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Av8rDal (Reply 28):
I'm not complaining though. If FraPort and Munich Airport (private companies) think they can achieve 'security' in such a way, then fine. It sure pales in comparison to some of the people we have working the TSA checkpoints in the USA. Unfortunately, I see them just as mere government bureaucrats who are paid to bother people and/or just stand around and look official.

That sums up my issue with security at US airports. The whole thing just seems so inept.

As usual, I will trot out my favorite article on how you can design and implement good security without spending a fortune: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2459
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 21):
Also, isnt FRA, unlike other airports in very, very, very close proximity to a US miitary base?

It used to be adjacent to Rhein Main AFB, but I think that base was recently shut down. Still, soldiers and family members from the US bases in Heidelberg, Ramstein, Stuttgart, etc. all frequently use FRA for their trips back to the states.
 
airbazar
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 9):
Being a first class passenger does not exempt you from security checks.

I never implied that. Only that it's not an excuse for the long delay. They pay enough to warrant enough dedicated security checkpoints without lines.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 25):
I find that hard to believe since even the TSA doesn't do as much security as they do in FRA.

The secondary security checkpoint is mandated by the TSA. That is why all flights to the US depart from the same peer. Basicaly airlines have 2 choices: Either comply with TSA regulations or don't fly to the US.
 
Continental
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RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:17 am

I've experienced security like this in Brussels. I remember going through regular security, then having to go to a separate area for all flights to the US. One by one, everyone put their bags on a table while someone took EVERYTHING out of your bag. Anything electronic had to be turned on to prove that it's not dangerous. Also, everyone got a full pat down. After, we were asked a million questions by this one guy, and then we were finally allowed to wait at the gate. It was crazy and it left us with very little time.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting Mats (Reply 11):
Compare this to Tel Aviv, where there is one interview, one metal detector, and that's it. It's so much quicker.

TLV is far more rigid in terms of security for any flight, let alone those bound for the US.

Quoting Continental (Reply 32):
I've experienced security like this in Brussels.

 checkmark 
You can't cure stupid
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Continental (Reply 32):
I've experienced security like this in Brussels. I remember going through regular security, then having to go to a separate area for all flights to the US. One by one, everyone put their bags on a table while someone took EVERYTHING out of your bag.

I have been to Brussels 8 times in the last 18 months and never experienced anything like that.

I have gone through the second screening, but I've never had anyone even look at either me or my bags save once... last time I was lugging 7 liters of beer and one of the security officials asked me if I could stay around until he got off shift so he could help me out with some of it.

NS
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting KSYR (Reply 30):

It used to be adjacent to Rhein Main AFB, but I think that base was recently shut down. Still, soldiers and family

The airbase was closed Oct 2005. It was a completely separate, gated complex on the other side of the runways. It had it's own security, apart from the Fraport security..

Quoting Av8rDal (Reply 28):
I'm not complaining though. If FraPort and Munich Airport (private companies) think they can achieve 'security' in such a way, then fine

Fraport or Munich airport don't make the rulss They has have to make sure that the rules imposed by TSA, the German police and whoever else is involved, are properly carried out and check points are staffed.

On top of that, the airline is responsible that each and every passenger has a visa, a passport and has made all arangements such as Hotel accomodation. Again., theese are Homeland Security rules and requirements and the airline gets heavily penalized if a passenger arrives in the US without proper documentation. I usually fly BA to the US and they have a pre-clearance system. As an Executive Club member it might be easier to get cleared and I susually never have any problems or waiting time. My data is on file and I just confirm it by e-mail.

Still, whatever we experience in Europe on addtional check points is mandated by Homeland Security and not the brain child of the German federal Police or the Department of the Interior.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
planenutz
Topic Author
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:50 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:46 am

I don't think that all of the security measures are obligated per the TSA. If that were the case, then security would just as strict at all European gateway airports ot the USA. FRA was different. As I mentioned, at CDG there were no additional ckecks beyond what all pax to non-USA destinations went through.
Not all who wander are lost....
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:31 am

The thing about security is, that the general public is not supposed to know all the details. I never used CDG as a gateway to North America, possible but hard to believe that the French ignore rules because they are "Americaine".

Since the matter touches my business, I am involved in observing the various rules and regulations which are and will be in the next 5 years slapped oin the exporting community and I can tell you that we haven's seen anything yet. Just look at the rules and laws that are passed in Congress and Senate and have to be implemented by Homeland Security.

The Congressmen and Senators are driven by public opinion and usually don't have the slightest idea what they are votimng on. I mean, how stupid and ignorant must one be to pass a law that requires mandatory inspeciton of a an airfreight case/carton weighinhg 150 lbs for possible sto aways? How stupid and ignorant must one be to require inspeciton of 100% of all ocean containers exported to the USA?

I could give you more samples of what will hamper world trade in the future. Nothing against reasonable laws and regulations, but these guys are not listening to the experts, all they wanr is become re elected. They don't need to please the experts, they need to please Joe Blow and Plain Jane.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
mindscape
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:28 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:45 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
possible but hard to believe that the French ignore rules because they are "Americaine".

Not at all, security is security and the French are applying the same rules...

Quoting Planenutz (Reply 36):
As I mentioned, at CDG there were no additional ckecks beyond what all pax to non-USA destinations went through.

At CDG, for any departure to the US on an AF, DL, NW flight departing from Terminal 2E:
1) there is a first security control prior checking where the "local TSA security agent" is asking a bunch of questions regarding luggages, checking you have a return ticket if you dont have any visa, etc...
2) the second security control is done during check-in with the check-in counter agent who enters your passport details on the system and ask your address while staying in the US;
3) the third security control is just after the immigration control where you have to go through metal detector and hand luggages through scan. Laptops, and reflex cameras have to be taken out from the bag, all liquids are confiscated, etc... once the scan done, there is also a random hand luggage search if you have been "selected"...
4) the final security control is just before boarding where there is anothere random cabin baggage search...

This is the security procedure i experienced every month at CDG 2E for flights to the US, don't know for CO and AA at CDG 2A and UA at CDG1.
 
caspritz78
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 21):
Also, isnt FRA, unlike other airports in very, very, very close proximity to a US miitary base?

The US Base doesn't exist anymore. The Americans moved all to Rammstein. Frankfurt will get a third Terminal build at the site of the old US airbase. You can read all about the expansion plans here http://www.ausbau.fraport.com/cms/default/rubrik/2/2227.htm

Quoting LH431 (Reply 24):
They didn't have that when I flew FRA-DTW on NW in January, or FRA-ATL on DL in 2002.

NW and DL leave in Terminal 2 and the secuirty messures are different there. I really think you only have to go to the second screening if you fly LH.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 38):

Not at all, security is security and the French are applying the same rules...

you confirm my opinion. Like I said, I don't use CDG for US flights, but from experience on flights CDG-FRA, the security checks are not less than here in FRA, possibly less polite.

The scheme for security checks on North American flights is based on what the Department of Homeland Security requests and the German (or Frenchetc ) authoritoes have little choice but to carry that out and m ake sure that passengers are thouroughly checked.

Same goes for freight, where a 100% security check of all air cargo (and ocean containers as well) becomes mandatory within the next 5 years. This is a nightmare for the shipping industry, the manufacturers and the consumers who have to foot the bill at the end of the day. . Let's hope that reasonableness and sanity finds its way back into the minds of the law makers before this nightmare is pushed through.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 18):
The second security screening for LH flights to the United States has probably somthing to do with connecting passenger. I guess with the second screening Frankfurt and LH make sure that every passenger is screened according to the TSA requirements.

I was on LX FRA-ZRH recently and was very surprised to discover a 2nd full security checkpoint just before entering the gate area (the flight was departing from gate B32). I could not understand why a full second security check was needed 5 minutes after I passed through the first security checkpoint right after checking in. That isn't required on any other flights from other cities in Germany to Switzerland, or anywhere else in Europe. Fortunately there was no wait at either of the checkpoints but I still fail to see the need for having to clear security twice at the same airport.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 9):
Keep in mind that 9/11 hijackers all flew first class so a lesson must be learned

Well, if you're talking about F a 747 (LH is an exception to this), then you're learning the wrong lesson. C is next to the cockpit.  Smile

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):

Fraport or Munich airport don't make the rulss They has have to make sure that the rules imposed by TSA, the German police and whoever else is involved, are properly carried out and check points are staffed.

Maybe they're making US-bound passengers suffer as a way of sticking to Americans. Make everyone go through an absurdly thorough screening and tell them it's the US gov't's fault. The problem is that many clueless people would think "This is great; why don't we have security like this in the US?"

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
The thing about security is, that the general public is not supposed to know all the details.

Security through obscurity is not a good idea. The "enemy" can find out what you are keeping secret and you won't know. Thus your security system breaks and you have no way of knowing.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 23):
The more checks you put, the more chances you have in catching something that shouldn't be there.

And the more money and time you waste. Money that would be more effectively spent elsewhere. And you make it more likely that the initial screeners will be lazy, knowing that if they miss something it will be caught by the 2nd layer.
 
Danny
Posts: 3753
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:13 pm

I travelled FRA - DUB last year and they astonished me by doing security check twice. Normal first when entering departures area then second (for all passengers) upon boarding the bus to take us to the plane. Needless to say this delayed flight.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25464
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:20 pm

I think the 2nd security in FRA applies to flights that depart from the same area as US flights !!! At least that was my experience on LH FRA-DUB .
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 25):
I find that hard to believe since even the TSA doesn't do as much security as they do in FRA.

You are mistaken. It is the TSA who requires this extra screening. For security reasons, I obviously won't get into specifics... but there are few places in the World nowadays that have better screening than the U.S. In fact, none that I have tested. I haven't been to Israel, (cause I've never worked for a carrier that flew there), but I would love to learn more about their screening procedures.

If you notice when you go through a checkpoint in the U.S....they're all almost uniform now in their equipment. Employee attitudes notwithstanding, the screening protocols are uniform across the U.S. You'll notice that the crappy mags the U.S. had pre-9/11 are all gone and the X-ray devices are all gone too. Back in the 90's when airlines used to "test" the checkpoint, I was always amazed at what we could get through the old mags. Trust me, it doesn't work like that anymore...

One thing I've noticed recently here in the U.S. is that the TSA is now checking BPs/ID's. They did have it contracted out at many airports, but I guess they're taking it back in-house, which I think is a great idea.

The TSA also has more stringent guidelines on bag screening than other countries. IMO, it's somewhat unnecessary, but nonetheless, they have separate ETD equipment (mostly the software) at many large gateways to the U.S. (that are deemed high risk).

I don't work in the CorpSec World anymore, but it was an interesting experience post 9/11.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 45):

One thing I've noticed recently here in the U.S. is that the TSA is now checking BPs/ID's. They did have it contracted out at many airports, but I guess they're taking it back in-house, which I think is a great idea.

And they seem to be enforcing elite lines.  Sad Passengers pay the same screening fees, regardless of status. They should get the same crappy service (senators and congressmen/women too). Or the TSA should do it's own status tied to number of flights/year on any airline in the US.

Okay, I admit I use elite lines; I'm a hypocrite.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 45):
One thing I've noticed recently here in the U.S. is that the TSA is now checking BPs/ID's. They did have it contracted out at many airports, but I guess they're taking it back in-house, which I think is a great idea.

Why are they checking ID at all? It's just a revenue generation tool for the airlines (non-transferable tickets). It's easy to change one's name on the BP (book under a different name, print BP to file, edit to have your name), thus avoiding the no-fly list.

Any half-intelligent wanna be terrorist can get around this problem.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 42):

Maybe they're making US-bound passengers suffer as a way of sticking to Americans. Make everyone go through an absurdly thorough screening and tell them it's the US gov't's fault. The problem is that many clueless people would think "This is great; why don't we have security like this in the US?"

You can' be serious about that. Both are comemrcially operated companies. There are no emotions involved in running a company and all pqassengers are ztreated as customers. It IS your Government, or, as you call it, administration.

Quoting Analog (Reply 42):
Security through obscurity is not a good idea. The "enemy" can find out what you are keeping secret and you won't know. Thus your security system breaks and you have no way of knowing

Again, it is not "our" security system. It is a system imposed by the US and they can do what they want, a determined organisation can and will hit nbext time. The way to prevent this is not the checkpoint at the airport, you can make as many as you want. The way to prevent this is by intelligence and observation of the potential groups. Checking hard discs and whatvere it takes.

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20701
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 46):
And they seem to be enforcing elite lines. Sad Passengers pay the same screening fees, regardless of status. They should get the same crappy service (senators and congressmen/women too). Or the TSA should do it's own status tied to number of flights/year on any airline in the US.

Okay, I admit I use elite lines; I'm a hypocrite.

If by "elite lines" you mean "fast track" and so forth, those don't really change screening. It's just faster.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Flying From FRA To The USA. Wow.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:34 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 48):

If by "elite lines" you mean "fast track" and so forth, those don't really change screening. It's just faster.

Making the process faster is changing it, and waiting in line for the screening is integral to the screening; you cannot have the screening without waiting in line.

If you have to wait in line for 3 hours for a government function like getting a driver's license, you would complain to.... the driver's license office. Now imagine if they responded that the lines are not part of their function; they have no control over the lines. Total garbage, yet people use the same logic to say that elite security lines are okay, as the screening is the same.

"Fast Track" in the UK (as I know it) is just fine, as the airlines pay extra for each person who uses it (as far as I know). The Clear and Privium systems (which have plenty of other problems) are also fine in this regard, since their use is not dependent of your patronage of a specific airline.

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