AF340
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US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:32 pm

This is a couple of days old,
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...its_071011/20071011?hub=TopStories


I think this is crazy, what do you guys think?



AF340


(If this is a double post, please delete)
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:37 pm

This is weird, I don't really think it is a good idea, none of the a/c will ever touch American soil, so the American government should not care one bit.

The government is getting to much power over air travel in the name of "national security" and the War on Terror.

I don't like it one bit
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AeroWesty
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:48 pm

I really like this note from the comments section:

"US flights currently overfly Cuba and the US pays Cuba for the privilege. Would the U.S. consider giving Cuba access to passenger lists?"
International Homo of Mystery
 
kaitak
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:52 pm

That's no problem; all US t/a flights to Asia and Europe overfly Canada - as soon as the US is prepared to provide equivalent info to Canada, that will be fine. Canada will be more than happy to oblige. (And it has to be translated into French too, n'est-ce pas!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 3):
That's no problem; all US t/a flights to Asia and Europe overfly Canada - as soon as the US is prepared to provide equivalent info to Canada, that will be fine.

Careful. You really think this current gov't would hesitate to make yet another arguably-draconian demand as to what airlines (including its own) must disclose?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
SA7700
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:58 pm

Is the same principle going to be in effect for USA airlines crossing Canadian airspace on their way to various Asian and European destinations?
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
lowrider
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):
I think this is crazy, what do you guys think?

Every country has the right to set standards for entry into and use of its airspace. That said, I think this idea is missing the bigger picture. Before we are concerned with who is flying over the country, we should take care of who is walking across our borders.
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northstardc4m
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
Every country has the right to set standards for entry into and use of its airspace.

Yes they do, however people not traveling to that country have the right to assume that their personal information will not be given to said country.

This plan is not going to fly here. The privacy commissioner will be forced to disallow this kind of thing. It is against the Canadian Privacy Act, and honestly i'm sure it violates more than a couple agreements the US has signed in good faith. And the second any US law firm tries to use any of the information obtained to say, go after companies whos CEO went to Cuba... well i don't think i need to go there.

The US already has left a bad taste in Canadian's mouths after the Maher Arar fiasco, and this is just going to force the pendulum even further against US "security" actions.

They need to remember something Sun-Tzu said:

"To Insult an enemy is useless, to insult an ally is suicide."
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:29 pm

The US has over stepped it bounds many times, they will continue to do so. If Canada were to have requested this it would be a huge issue.
 
threepoint
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting Flyb (Reply 8):
The US has over stepped it bounds many times, they will continue to do so. If Canada were to have requested this it would be a huge issue.

If we are to believe the media reports, the Canadian government is resisting, using the argument that the current Canada no-fly list was developed in close consultation with the US, so the duplication of effort is unnecessary. I believe they wisely understand that silent compliance will be a political hot potato, but that of course would not deter the US policymakers one iota. The comments about the US gov't overstepping their bounds seem to be justified in this respect.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:55 pm

As a Canadian I don't want a foreign government having access to my personal information. The Canadian government needs to protect this.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:46 pm

The US even wanted information on domestic Canadian flights that overflew the U.S. Most flights that fly from YYZ to the west coast cross Michigan or Wisconsin or another State. The U.S. has backed down on this one part due to resistance from the Canadians. Either that or they claimed to back down on it to make the other overflights more palatable. I can see a flight being asked to land so that the US can remove someone from a flight they want to get their hands on. Where would the line be drawn. Draft dodgers from the Vietnam war? Sure if a plane needs to make an emergency landing on US soil yes the passenger information should be provided the same as a Canada to U.S. flight. My favourite hotel was and still is across the street from the WTC. I was in that hotel the weekend before 9/11. No one needs to tell me about the need for security. But enough is enough.
 
flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:04 pm

If a plane lands in the us and people are required to get off the plane, they have to go through US customs. That is when they can get there information.

I do not see the need for the US to know when I am going to Cuba. For my hoilday.
 
Indy
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:11 pm

If the US won't back off their outrageous requests the Canadian government could always refuse airspace clearance to any jet traveling to/from the US to Europe. The Canadian government holds all the cards in this since they don't really need to fly over US territory. They can make a detour around Michigan. Denying airspace access to jets heading to/from the US would be a huge problem.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:19 pm

Add Asia to that as well. Canada holds a major key for the US.
 
brilondon
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:29 pm

Maybe we should not allow U.S. flights with over Canada with an air marshal on board or even completely disallow them altogether. I don't want the U.S. to have access to any of my information if I am not going to the U.S.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
Indy
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Flyb (Reply 14):
Add Asia to that as well. Canada holds a major key for the US.

Canada could basically shut down all European and Asian air travel for the U.S. right?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 15):
one, apologize to my Canadian neighbors for this further authoritarian privacy invading request....

Agree 100%

I just think this request is ridiculous and I really do apolgize to all Canadians for this. I live in Michigan so we are close and I am deeply sorry. There is no need for this.
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flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 17):
Canada could basically shut down all European and Asian air travel for the U.S. right?

Correct.
 
ANother
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 17):
Canada could basically shut down all European and Asian air travel for the U.S. right?

How about US 'domestic' flights. Seems to be a bit of Canada between Alaska and the 'lower 48'! Now that might get some attention in Washington.
 
L-188
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 20):
How about US 'domestic' flights. Seems to be a bit of Canada between Alaska and the 'lower 48'! Now that might get some attention in Washington.

Well since we didn't get into a shooting war over salmon in 96, I doubt it would get that bad in this case. It would just require a route 12 miles off the BC coast.

Now if they shut down the inside passage between Vancouver and the Queen Charlotte Islands that would require a shooting war to keep trade open.
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tsl1011
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 20):
How about US 'domestic' flights. Seems to be a bit of Canada between Alaska and the 'lower 48'! Now that might get some attention in Washington.

In addition, I believe more than a few US domestic flights between the northeastern states and the interior of the continent fly over southern Ontario. I know that on Flightaware I've seen Jetblue tracks crossing southern Ontario, and Jetblue doesn't serve any Canadian destinations.
 
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yyz717
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:45 am

I'm Canadian but I have no problem with this. I have no problem with any US govt agency accessing my info since I'm not doing anything wrong. Anything that helps prevent another 9-11 is okay with me.

Anyone who doesn't like this can simply choose not to fly to or overfly the US.

It's their airspace and the US is within their rights to demand this non-intrusive info.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jamincan
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 23):
I'm Canadian but I have no problem with this. I have no problem with any US govt agency accessing my info since I'm not doing anything wrong. Anything that helps prevent another 9-11 is okay with me.

Anyone who doesn't like this can simply choose not to fly to or overfly the US.

Perhaps you could point me to the flight from Toronto to the Caribbean that doesn't fly over the continental US? Or do you expect those of us who value our privacy to connect through Europe?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 23):
It's their airspace and the US is within their rights to demand this non-intrusive info.

Some people thought they had nothing to hide as well, but apparently the US government disagreed with them, arrested them, sent them off to Syria or some other place to have them tortured before releasing them after realizing they had nothing to hide after all. I don't exactly trust the current US government to use anyone's information responsibly.

Such a policy wouldn't affect the vast majority of Canadian travelers; however, there are a few that it would affect and that's reason enough to block it. The fact that they won't require it for domestic Canadian flights is proof enough that this isn't an issue of security, but an issue of intelligence. They're on a fishing expedition for information that they don't really have any legitimate right to. I know, they technically do, but I think most people agree that such information should remain private and confidential.
 
ANother
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:16 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 20):

Well since we didn't get into a shooting war over salmon in 96, I doubt it would get that bad in this case. It would just require a route 12 miles off the BC coast.

I thought there were some flights from the midWest / E. Coast to Alaska that wouldn't be able to do this.
 
Arrow
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22):
I'm Canadian but I have no problem with this. I have no problem with any US govt agency accessing my info since I'm not doing anything wrong.

This kind of analysis drives me nuts; the concept that I'm not doing anything wrong so there's no problem baring my soul to a government agency -- particularly a foriegn government agency. All government agencies make mistakes, have information that is not accurate, and will blindly act on that inaccurate information despite your legitimate protests that "you've got the wrong guy." Innocent people have spent time in jail on just this kind of mix-up, and as a previous poster pointed out, one or two have ended up in another country for a torture session. Homeland Security and Customs and Border agents have tremendous power -- they can literally lock you up indefinitely with no recourse to any kind of judicial review. If they cite "national security" as the reason for the detention, they don't even have to tell anyone they've locked you up.

Everyone recognizes that security issues in the wake of 9/11 require more diligence. I have no issue with US agencies requiring passenger information for every flight destined to land in the US. Every country has a right to this kind of passenger information. But when a flight is doing nothing more than transiting US airspace on its way somewhere else, there is no security reason to demand a detailed passenger manifesto, and it is a violation of another country's sovereignty to do so. In Canada's case, providing this info to US agencies breaks Canadian law. Ask yourself what the US reaction would be if Canada demanded info from US-origin flights through Canadian airspace to Europe, and it broke US law.

What Homeland Security proposes here is nothing more than an unwarranted fishing expedition, and they should be told to stick it where the sun don't shine. Canada has its own security list, which was done in cooperation with the US, and that should satisfy their security concerns. If the US bans overflights, Canada should do likewise. This kind of BS really does have to stop. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and this will blow over.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22):
I'm Canadian but I have no problem with this. I have no problem with any US govt agency accessing my info since I'm not doing anything wrong. Anything that helps prevent another 9-11 is okay with me.

Anyone who doesn't like this can simply choose not to fly to or overfly the US.

It's their airspace and the US is within their rights to demand this non-intrusive info.

It is not a matter of doing right or wrong...then again maybe it is. The US would track you trips, what if they decided that because you have visited Cuba or some country they deem as bad, they will not let you in the country; even though your trip to Cuba was merely for holiday pleasure.
 
greggarious
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 25):

Very well put. I don't understand what my government is trying to pull here, but there is no doubt that these kinds of measures would cause more harm than good (not to mention the fact that they're an egregious violation of individual rights and national sovereignty of Canadian citizens).
 
kaitak
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Flyb (Reply 12):
I do not see the need for the US to know when I am going to Cuba. For my hoilday.

I was actually thinking about this, from a US travellers' perspective; as you know, travel to Cuba is banned for US citizens and it is known that a number - presumably Americans of Cuban descent - fly to Canada and then down to HAV or wherever. If the US had access to this info, they could charge these people. Why should Canada be party to this?

Also, just as a question: if the US ordered a Canadian airliner en route to/from Cuba to land in the US and it had US passengers on board, could it legally order these people off the aircraft and arrest them there and then? Legally, probably not, but would it stop them?
 
Dougloid
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:22 pm

It does sound a little useless but as is typical, everyone's getting their undies in a bunch over a couple news articles without really figuring out what's going on or how they're being jacked around by a bunch of halfassed newspaper reporters.

The Globe and Mail characterized this as the US "Demanding" information.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...1.airspace11/BNStory/National/home

Nobody's demanding anything just yet.

It isn't a rule yet, it hasn't been implemented and all you folks who have anything intelligent to say about it can comment all you like for another week yet.

Here's a pretty good article from the travel industry, and it has a link to the 37 page notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM).

How many of you read it?

http://www.management.travel/news.php?cid=TSA-Secure-Flight.Oct-07.11

Quoting Arrow (Reply 25):
This kind of analysis drives me nuts; the concept that I'm not doing anything wrong so there's no problem baring my soul to a government agency -- particularly a foriegn government agency

AFAIK, the proposal-and that's all it is right now-is not asking you to bare your soul.

What it's asking operators who overfly the US to provide is who you are, gender, DOB and where you're going. It does say in the NPRM that you would not be compelled to provide such information to the airline you book with, but that it would be difficult to distinguish you from people on the watch list and that you'd be more likely to experience delays.

Again, I haven't fully read all 37 pages of government-ese. I could change my mind about it. It's from the government and is therefore presumptively stupid.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Analog
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:34 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22):
I'm Canadian but I have no problem with this. I have no problem with any US govt agency accessing my info since I'm not doing anything wrong. Anything that helps prevent another 9-11 is okay with me.

How does giving a foreign government access to your information for the purposes of stopping a flight (which this, in the end, is for) prevent another 9/11? The only reason could be that you are a terrorist. (Note the sarcasm)

As Arrow said, this kind of reasoning drives me crazy. I'm probably not doing anything wrong in my bathroom, but I certainly would have a problem giving the US government access to it. And "anything that helps prevent another 9-11"?? Tagging everyone with GPS locator beacons for gov't tracking might help...

Everybody has things to hide. That's why people have locks on their doors, shred their financial documents before disposal, have curtains on their bathroom windows, etc. etc. Every time the government intrudes into your life there's a chance something can go wrong (in this case misidentification as a no-fly lister, name mix-up IDing a Canadian flying to Cuba as an American with the same name, etc.). Getting recourse for gov't screwups is tough; try getting compensation for a wrongful arrest or the time wasted getting off a no-fly list.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 25):
What Homeland Security proposes here is nothing more than an unwarranted fishing expedition, and they should be told to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Agreed. The DHS is probably just trying to build a huge set of data on peoples' travel. They might not even have a real desire for it now, but they figure they might want it in the future.
 
flyb
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:56 pm

Even look at my travel schedule for work /holiday over the last 2 years:
Cuba/Venezula/Columbia/Nicarugua/

Those are just a few countries, but that could easily put me on a US watch least because of those countries relationship with the US.
 
SBBRTech
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:40 pm

What´s the point of it?
I really take foreign resolutions concerning internal affairs quite seriously, but this is way too much.
The US gov´t has screwed too many travel plans in the name of this terrormania...what are the odds of having a terrorist parachuting from a civilian airliner cruising miles above the US soil ?
In the end it´s all too clear: you ain´t no american then you´re a potential enemy. Case closed.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
brilondon
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 20):
Well since we didn't get into a shooting war over salmon in 96, I doubt it would get that bad in this case. It would just require a route 12 miles off the BC coast.

The problem comes up when the Canadian government doesn't recognize the American 12 mile rule but the Canadian 200 mile rule. This might be a little more inconvenient.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Tsl1011 (Reply 21):
In addition, I believe more than a few US domestic flights between the northeastern states and the interior of the continent fly over southern Ontario. I know that on Flightaware I've seen Jetblue tracks crossing southern Ontario, and Jetblue doesn't serve any Canadian destinations.

Apart from Alaska, many other US domestic flights e.g. JFK-SEA sometimes fly almost the entire route over Canada when winds are more favorable on that routing. And the same applies for Canadian domestic flights. I have been on several YVR-YYZ flights that were over the USA almost all the way.
 
PanAm747
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RE: US Wants Canadian Passenger Manifests

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:18 am

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the farce of the "no-fly list". Regardless of your point of view as to whether having all that information is a good thing or a bad thing, the federal government's total incompetence to accept and deal with the fact that more than one person can have a name that has been dumped onto the no-fly list horrifies me. Now every "Richard Johnson" in Canada can be subjected to the same humiliation as parents who can't take their toddler on an airplane because TSA and the FAA have determined that he might be a terrorist, simply because some idiot put his name on the list and further idiots cannot use any logic of their own and have to deny him boarding.

As for demanding passenger lists from Canada, the U.S. should expect that other countries have the right to do the same thing in return. Believe me, airlines in the U.S. will screen bloody murder when Canada and Cuba and Mexico and every other country along the flight plan turn the plane away. AA's Caribbean and South American operations from Miami alone would suffer horrendously, adding flight time and fuel - something that would have to passed on to passengers.
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