boeingbus
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787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:33 pm

Look who got axed for the delay... its not spelled outright but I am sure it a repercussions from it....

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071016/aqtu153a.html?.v=1

Good Luck Pat Shanahan!

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NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:36 pm

WEll let's see if the the change improves things. It's hardly surprising. It should be noted that Mike Bair was not at the press conference last week with McNerney and Carson. That should have told us something then.
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scbriml
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:42 pm

That's kind of how it works at my company.

Senior managers get moved on to "special projects" for a few months. They usually then "elect to retire".
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PADSpot
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:49 pm

Quote:
Shanahan moves from vice president, Missile Defense Systems at Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, and succeeds Mike Bair, who will become vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes, replacing Mike Cave, whose move to a position at Boeing Corporate Offices was announced earlier today.

What's up with Randy Tinseth? Wasn't he Vice President Marketing Commercial Airplanes?
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:53 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
That's kind of how it works at my company.

Senior managers get moved on to "special projects" for a few months. They usually then "elect to retire".

Heh that's how it works in the corporate world. I think the samething happened to Charles Champion (sorry if I mis-spelt his name) who headed up the A380 project. After the delays came out he was given the proverbial walking papers. What's interesting is that Charles lasted a little longer even after the first 2 delays were announced but Mike Bair got canned after this delay was announced. I guess Boeing is not planning to wait around and wants new blood to make sure things get moving again.
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:06 pm

He does deserve to be let go. Fair is fair. If the 787 delivered was on time he would have accepted the praise, but the opposite happened, so he must accept the blame.
But if there is a further delay, then somebody even higher in the corporate structure should be let go.
 
ulfinator
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:18 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
Look who got axed for the delay... its not spelled outright but I am sure it a repercussions from it....

I wouldn't say Mike Bair got axed. He move is more horizontal than anything. Actually it positions him to go to corporate eventually.

From the same article

"...Mike Bair, who will become vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes, replacing Mike Cave, whose move to a position at Boeing Corporate Offices was announced earlier today."
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:22 pm

Quoting Ulfinator (Reply 6):
I wouldn't say Mike Bair got axed. He move is more horizontal than anything. Actually it positions him to go to corporate eventually.

You're right he didn't get axed but the hoirzontal movement out from heading a very important and high profile project to a position that is at best a job that leads no where is a vote of no confidence in that person. I'm surprised that no one else really has grabbed on the importance of this change.

I have to wonder if there are any other management changes in the offing. I'm willing to say no cause at this point in the program Boeig doesn't want to make wholesale changes in the management...that would guarantee additional delays.
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swallow
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:31 pm

IMHO, being appointed vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes or advisor to Airbus CEO is corporate speak for being sent to sit on the 'naughty step'. Supernanny showed up and both Charles Champion and Mike Bair had make way  Smile
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:45 pm

Remember that it is likely Boeing will continue with CFRP and electrics for their next commercial aircraft programs, so putting the man with the most "hands-on" experience in those areas in charge of helping develop those next programs makes sense.

If Bair leaves Boeing by the end of 2009, then this likely an "axing" for failure to meet the 787 program milestones.

If he is still in that position by the end of 2009, then it was likely to leverage his experience for future programs.
 
bringiton
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:58 pm

I think that vice president Business Strategy and Marketing is a significant post , and given that their is a 737RS due next and a possible 777NG and/or Y3 this office will hold a key position in determining the product strategy and future portfolio for BCA . This might be a combo of a leadership change at tha 787 level and a strategic change at the Corp. level . A person like bair who has had hands on expereince of working on a game changing aircraft from the inception will surely be helpful for boeings future product strategy .
 
Rheinbote
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting Ulfinator (Reply 6):
I wouldn't say Mike Bair got axed. He move is more horizontal than anything. Actually it positions him to go to corporate eventually.

IIRC he held the position of VP Business Strategy and Marketing at BCA before he was promoted to lead the 787 program. So it's back to square one for him.
 
ulfinator
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 10):
IMHO, being appointed vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes or advisor to Airbus CEO is corporate speak for being sent to sit on the 'naughty step'.

Interestingly enough according to his bio Mike Bair was the VP of Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanee in 2000.

Actually it is kind of interesting how Bair and Cave (haha Bair Cave) have taken over for each other.

Bair

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/execprofiles/bair.html

2000 - 2001 - VP of Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes
2001 - 2003 - VP of Commercial Aviation Servies
2003 - 2007 - VP of 787
2007 - ???? - VP of Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes (suceeded Cave)

Cave

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/execprofiles/cave.html

2000 - 2003 - Commercial Airplanes CFO
2003 - 2003 - VP of Commercial Aviation Services (suceeded Bair)
2003 - 2006 - VP/GM of 737/747/767/777 Programs
2006 - 2007 - VP of Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes

Other than it looks like Bair go sent back to the begining of his cycle it looks like they both have fairly similar pedigrees.
 
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Revelation
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting Ulfinator (Reply 6):
"...Mike Bair, who will become vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes, replacing Mike Cave, whose move to a position at Boeing Corporate Offices was announced earlier today."

Sounds like he will be Boeing's John Leahy!  Silly

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Remember that it is likely Boeing will continue with CFRP and electrics for their next commercial aircraft programs, so putting the man with the most "hands-on" experience in those areas in charge of helping develop those next programs makes sense.

If Bair leaves Boeing by the end of 2009, then this likely an "axing" for failure to meet the 787 program milestones.

If he is still in that position by the end of 2009, then it was likely to leverage his experience for future programs.

I agree, but I think if it's an axing, he'll be gone within 3-6 months.
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
IIRC he held the position of VP Business Strategy and Marketing at BCA before he was promoted to lead the 787 program. So it's back to square one for him.

I wonder if he was moved to head the 787 program because he was the former VP of Business Strategy and Marketing during the Sonic Cruiser / Glacier programs, from which the 7E7 and Yellowstone programs evolved from. I can't remember if he still held that post when I was there (I didn't pay much attention to the VIPs)...
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:27 pm

Looks to me like they are moving Mike back to where his real business strengths lie.....
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Ken777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:07 pm

There could be a lot of reasons besides the axe.

Basically it is a good point in the 787 to make a change. There are problems to be worked out. like the fasteners, but the bulk of the work has been done.

It may be that Y1 is closer to an announcement than we think and there is a desire to have Mike in a position to work with the airlines. With his experience in the 'joint 787/Y1 development program" he would be well qualified for that job.

And it may be that Mike was ready for a change. Happens a lot in business and he might be going where he really wanted to go.

We'll see in 6 months.
 
aa1818
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:21 pm

Boeing likes to replace people with others with the same name.

Randy gets replaced by Randy and Mikey by Mike!! Perhaps I should rename myself Jim!!!!!

AA1818
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zeke
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:53 am

Does anyone know what was behind the decision to enter into a fixed price contract with Asian Composites Manufacturing Sdn Bhd to build the vertical fin for the 787 (300 ship sets through to 2012).

I was of the understanding that these were being produced by Boeing, with this new contract is that to supplement the fins made by Boeing, or to replace them ?

If it is to replace the Boeing fins, are they having difficulties producing them in house ?
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:12 pm

Nothing in the local news about the Fredrickson plant in the Seattle area about any problems. They had a big shin-dig when LN001's part was rolled-out. So I can only assume it's supplemental production.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
It may be that Y1 is closer to an announcement than we think and

Could be, but with 1800 + orders for the 737, shouldn't they devote resources to Y3? Either way they need the best possible person to lead that program.
 
Rheinbote
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):
Does anyone know what was behind the decision to enter into a fixed price contract with Asian Composites Manufacturing Sdn Bhd to build the vertical fin for the 787 (300 ship sets through to 2012).

Judged by their previous experience, I'd guess we talk about fin leading edges or fixed trailing edges.
 
PADSpot
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):

It may be that Y1 is closer to an announcement than we think and there is a desire to have Mike in a position to work with the airlines.



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 20):
Could be, but with 1800 + orders for the 737, shouldn't they devote resources to Y3? Either way they need the best possible person to lead that program.

The Y1 or A320NG are not so much driven by the market as more driven by technology. Boeing and Airbus both said that they actually "wait" for engine manufacturer to come up with a new development stage of their products that could make a Y1 or A320NG worthwhile ...
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
Look who got axed for the delay... its not spelled outright but I am sure it a repercussions from it....

It's not clear that he got axed for the delay, although that was my initial gut reaction too.

A couple of plausible options I've heard are:
1) He got axed.
2) The program was ready to change from a person with development/sales expertise to one with more production expertise.
3) Boeing is positioning for the next major project.
4) Something's afoot and Bair wanted to get out on a relative high note.

I personally think #2 is the most likely, on reflection. We can't forget that Bair did an amazing job...it's still the most successful commercial jet launch in history. But Shanahan is a veteran nuts-and-bolts production guy and that seems like the right kind of person to get through startup into full rate production.

Tom.
 
planemaker
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
A couple of plausible options I've heard are:
1) He got axed.

787 visionary out; new chief must make it fly
By Dominic Gates

Boeing's surprise ouster of 787 program chief Mike Bair on Tuesday was hailed by some industry observers as the tapping of a fresh leader who can mop up the mess behind the six-month delay announced last week.

Others saw it as a sign that the 787's problems run deeper than Boeing has admitted.

The removal of Bair, 51, deflects the rocketing career arc of a man seen as a leading candidate to head Boeing's commercial division some day. He led the Dreamliner program from its conceptual stage to the unprecedented sales success before its first flight, now expected next spring.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2003955663_boeing17.html
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:54 pm

I agree with the local paper's analysts who feel he was pulled because the 787 supply chain problem is serious enough that they need someone who has the experience and background dealing with that specific issue. Which, frankly, is good news because it means Boeing is serious in trying to ensure this six month delay is the only one.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):
Does anyone know what was behind the decision to enter into a fixed price contract with Asian Composites Manufacturing Sdn Bhd to build the vertical fin for the 787 (300 ship sets through to 2012).

An update on this - the original report was mis-translated. ACM will only be making components. The fin will continue to be produced in Fredrickson by Boeing.
 
Danny
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Ulfinator (Reply 6):
I wouldn't say Mike Bair got axed.

Foregard wasn't axed too  

Bair did well in the easier stage - the stage of promises. When it came to the stage of delivering, the program got in serious troubles hence the "change of leadership".

[Edited 2007-10-18 06:07:51]
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 27):
Bair did well in the easier stage - the stage of promises. When it came to the stage of delivering, the program got in serious troubles hence the "change of leadership".

Bair did a lot more than make promises he got the program to the production stage and in less than4 years after getting the go ahead from the Boeing board. What he did was an incredible job which got mucked up by the shortage of fasteners and the complexity of the flight control software but to get the the partners on board, get plant and equipement built, to get pre production testing done and to garner over 700 orders in less than 4 years time is an amazing job.

Danny you're very disengenious to mock Mike Bair for just making promises. Airbus I'm sure wishes that they had the kind of success with the A380 and A350 that Boeing has had with the 787, delays notwithstanding.
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Danny
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 28):
Bair did a lot more than make promises

When you sell a concept airliner what you really sell is a promise. A promise to deliver an aircraft with certain parameters. He did not deliver that.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 28):
got mucked up by the shortage of fasteners and the complexity of the flight control software

In other words mismanaged the supply chain. In a program totally relying on subcontractors that's a most critical area.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 29):
When you sell a concept airliner what you really sell is a promise. A promise to deliver an aircraft with certain parameters. He did not deliver that.

You mean like Airbus did with the A380 and later with the A350 or on the A346/5?

The only parameter Boeing has failed to make was on the promise of delivery on May 2008. And if you say that's the most critical parameter well then I should remind you that Airbus has failed on on time delivery of their most prestigious product by two years. Oh and 50 different customers wouldn't buy over 700 airplanes worth $100bn based on just the selling of a concept. Airlines are not that stupid. Boeing did a lot of testing and presented those test results to airlines.

Quoting Danny (Reply 29):
In other words mismanaged the supply chain. In a program totally relying on subcontractors that's a most critical area.

Oh and Airbus couldn't even manage it's internal design process when it came to wiring their most important product. Where was Charles Champion and Noel Forgeard when Airbus workers couldn't connect one wire toanother in a $20bn program?

Again Airbus wishes they had the kind of success with their widebody programs that Boeing has had with their widebody programs.

[Edited 2007-10-18 07:18:58]
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 29):
When you sell a concept airliner what you really sell is a promise. A promise to deliver an aircraft with certain parameters. He did not deliver that.

I'm sorry, what "parameters" did Bair fail to deliver?

Timeframe? Ok.

But it's still made out of CFRP. It still uses electrics instead of pneumatics. It's still twin-engined. It still flies more then 7500nm. It still carries over 200 people in three classes. Etc. Etc. Etc.
 
Danny
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
I'm sorry, what "parameters" did Bair fail to deliver?

So far he delivered nothing. The program hit significant problems before first prototype was built and Boeing decided that they did not have enough confidence in him to let him continue as head of 787 program.
 
texfly101
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:10 pm

Quoting Ulfinator (Reply 6):
I wouldn't say Mike Bair got axed. He move is more horizontal than anything. Actually it positions him to go to corporate eventually.

From the same article

"...Mike Bair, who will become vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes, replacing Mike Cave, whose move to a position at Boeing Corporate Offices was announced earlier today."

Yes, it was the end result of a bunch of moves that started with a totally unrelated retirement. Take a look at all the changes that were put in motion the previous day. While the timing might be suspect and the change a needed due, he was not viewed as having failed, rather, he fit the bill for the post and had the experience.

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 10):
I think that vice president Business Strategy and Marketing is a significant post , and given that their is a 737RS due next and a possible 777NG and/or Y3 this office will hold a key position in determining the product strategy and future portfolio for BCA . This might be a combo of a leadership change at tha 787 level and a strategic change at the Corp. level . A person like bair who has had hands on expereince of working on a game changing aircraft from the inception will surely be helpful for boeings future product strategy .

Yes, this is true as both the 737 and 777 replacements will be the result of what the airlines say they will buy. His experience in that area of the 787 development is seen as invaluable. Again, not saying that his 787 performance was given a big thumbs up by corporate but this is not being viewed as a demotion, rather as a needed change. Both Shanahan's and Bair's experience fit the roles that they ended up in. Shanahan has extensive 757 and 767 production experience and Bair has extensive Marketing and Sales so its let them do what they have been successful at doing in the past.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 32):
So far he delivered nothing. The program hit significant problems before first prototype was built and Boeing decided that they did not have enough confidence in him to let him continue as head of 787 program.

Uh huh, neither did Charles Champion when he was reassigned. He made a whole bunch of promises too. So what's you're point. Boeing is far better postion with the 787 vs Airbus with the A380 problems when they had their wiring issues and it still took two announced delays before they moved Champion out. And what significant problems are you refering to other than the delayed deliveries?
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Ken777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:21 pm

In terms of managing the supply chain Shanahan might be better than Bair, but he will probably have the same guys out in the field that Bair had. At this time Boeing is stuck with the 787 suppliers they have and I see little change in Boeings ability to light a fire under them. There are a few issues that are going to be demanding to get through (like ensuring the problems with fasteners are corrected) and getting through them will be dependent on the supplier's ability to work through the problem.

Bair might personally feel he's gotten the axe. If so we might see him take a very nice job at Ford before too long. My feeling, however, is that he was moved for a reason that is related to Y1 or Y3. I understand Y1 can't move forward without the engines, but I believe the major 737 operators are putting a huge amount of pressure on the engine manufacturers. Does anyone believe that WN hasn't been pushing the engine companies to the new engine out ASAP?
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:12 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 32):
So far he delivered nothing. The program hit significant problems before first prototype was built and Boeing decided that they did not have enough confidence in him to let him continue as head of 787 program.

Well if that is the only criteria, then Leahy has "failed to deliver" so often these past few years (A340E, A380, A350, A350XWB) that the only reason he still has a job must be because he has pictures of some EU Heads of States (censored).

Then there is most of Airbus' management team...

And EADS Defense just announced a six-month delay on the A400M program, so that's another "failure to deliver"...

But I'd rather work from a higher standard, since that way it's not grist for another pointless whizzing match on "who sucks more or less"...
 
Danny
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 34):
Boeing is far better postion with the 787 vs Airbus with

You wouldn't be yourself without trying to turn each topic into A vs B. 787 might end up much worse than 380. This is why Boeing did the right thing and axed Bair now. Hopefully the new leader will resolve the issues.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 37):
You wouldn't be yourself without trying to turn each topic into A vs B. 787 might end up much worse than 380. This is why Boeing did the right thing and axed Bair now. Hopefully the new leader will resolve the issues.

1) You're the one who turned this (and many other threads) into an A vs. B fest
2) Bair wasn't axed and you said so yourself though it seems that you don't know whether he was axed or not.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
wolbo
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RE: 787 Program Leadership Change

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 38):
1) You're the one who turned this (and many other threads) into an A vs. B fest

You may want to reread this thread before making such a statement. You are the first one to bring up Airbus in this thread on the 787 (reply 4) and you are also the one to constantly bring up Airbus in reply to Danny's posts while he doesn't even mention Airbus. It's looking in the mirror time.

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