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ScottB
Posts: 7269
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 148):
WN says Boston in some of their ads also.

Southwest's ads say "Boston area," and they do state that service is to Manchester or Providence. The linked Skybus ad claims that Skybus serves Boston with no disclaimer whatsoever that the service is actually to Portsmouth, NH. That's just plain deceptive. If one goes on Southwest's web site to book travel and selects "Boston area" on the reservations page, their system specifically says that "Boston area" is not a valid destination; the user must select either MHT or PVD. On the Skybus web site, you click on Boston to get Portsmouth.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 148):
you also have no evidence to prove they are doing poorly

You have no evidence that they're doing well at CMH, but it is you who made the claim:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 131):
and still doing very well at CMH.

I don't see any evidence of that. Summer load factors were below industry average. They're dropping 60% of their transcon flights. Substantiate your claim that they are "doing very well at CMH" or stop making it.
 
Boston92
Posts: 2607
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 150):
I don't see any evidence of that.

They submit pax numbers every month, and have been increasing month to month as well as going from 5th best to 2nd best at CMH.
 
ScottB
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 151):
They submit pax numbers every month, and have been increasing month to month as well as going from 5th best to 2nd best at CMH.

It doesn't take much to be "2nd best at CMH" -- the #3 carrier at CMH has a whopping 6 daily mainline departures. And we know nothing as to whether the service is profitable or unprofitable. Independence Air was the #2 airline at IAD.
 
BlueElephant
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 150):
Southwest's ads say "Boston area," and they do state that service is to Manchester or Providence. The linked Skybus ad claims that Skybus serves Boston with no disclaimer whatsoever that the service is actually to Portsmouth, NH. That's just plain deceptive. If one goes on Southwest's web site to book travel and selects "Boston area" on the reservations page, their system specifically says that "Boston area" is not a valid destination; the user must select either MHT or PVD. On the Skybus web site, you click on Boston to get Portsmouth.

Go to Skybus.com, It Clearly says 'Boston (Portsmouth, NH)'

Go to Southwest.com It says Boston Area, (Manchester, NH and Providence, RI)

They're the same...are you going to argue with me saying the word 'Area' clearly helps suggest that the flight is not Boston?...I think a sane logical person will know the difference between the 3 cities...

Quoting ScottB (Reply 150):
I don't see any evidence of that. Summer load factors were below industry average. They're dropping 60% of their transcon flights. Substantiate your claim that they are "doing very well at CMH" or stop making it.

Scott, It really seems that you're just looking for a reason to bash on Skybus. Please think about this logically.

Do some research before filing claims, and use logic....I am sure that Itsnotfinals has....ISkybus is doing very well, and all you need to do is go to CMH's website and look at the pax numbers and you'll see.

Think about this also, yes they dropped 60% or their transcontinental flights...Was that because they didn't make money?...No, its because they have 5 airplanes....soon to become 7....

With their aggressive expansion strategy they need those aircraft to be able to do shorter haul flights. If you have 3 aircraft that are now free for 9 block hours a day....then you have 27 additional block hours per day. And with the addition of a Focus city in GSO, they need those block hours...So that they can expand.

Just because they cancelled the flights doesn't mean they were losing money. They Dropped BLI because there were too many weather delays that backed up their system. Does that mean they weren't making money...No.
 
avianca707359b
Posts: 163
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
Go to Skybus.com, It Clearly says 'Boston (Portsmouth, NH)

The thing is, ScottB was not referring to the Skybus.com, but to an ad they circulated:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2007/10...s+So+Wants+Portsmouth+To+Be+Boston

The ad clearly states:
"New daily nonstops from Greensboro, NC to - Boston" and
"Daily nonstops from Columbus, OH to - Boston"

Just "Boston". Not "Boston-Portsmouth", not "Boston Area". Just "Boston".

Any way you look at it, it is simply deceptive. Any "sane logical" person that sees that AD and never heard of Skybus.com or the Airliners.net Civil Aviation forum can safely assume that they mean "Boston" as in Massachussetts, as in Logan Airport, and not as in "Boston - Portsmouth, NH" to a third-tier airport in an adjoining state. Skybus is playing games with the (admittedly unsuspecting) public and that is a fact.

And I won't even mention the fact that the same ad states "Daily Nonstops from Portsmouth, MA" which obviously is a typo. Or is it?
In Memory of HK-1402 "Sucre" & HK-1410 "Bolivar"
 
ScottB
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
Do some research before filing claims, and use logic....I am sure that Itsnotfinals has....ISkybus is doing very well, and all you need to do is go to CMH's website and look at the pax numbers and you'll see.

Passenger numbers don't tell me anything! FlyI had a 72.5% load factor for the 3rd quarter of 2005 and they still posted an operating margin of -40% for that quarter. Without knowing how the average yields look as well as how much non-fare revenue they're getting and how much it's costing them to run the operation, it's impossible to say that they are "doing very well." Saying that they filled X% of seats in and out of CMH is not enough to claim that they are doing "very well."

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
Think about this also, yes they dropped 60% or their transcontinental flights...Was that because they didn't make money?...No, its because they have 5 airplanes....soon to become 7....

With their aggressive expansion strategy they need those aircraft to be able to do shorter haul flights.

If the routes are doing very well, it would make more sense to keep the expansion plan on the back burner until more aircraft show up. Especially considering that they're starting these new routes going into the historically weak first quarter. If they prefer to run routes of shorter stage lengths, why are they adding GSO-BUR in February?

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
Go to Skybus.com, It Clearly says 'Boston (Portsmouth, NH)'

Go look at the ad here:
http://www.jaunted.com/story/2007/10...s+So+Wants+Portsmouth+To+Be+Boston

Go look at Southwest's route map. Do you see "Boston" on their map? Go look at Skybus's route map. Do you see "Portsmouth, NH" on their route map?

Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 154):
The thing is, ScottB was not referring to the Skybus.com, but to an ad they circulated:

 checkmark 

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
They Dropped BLI because there were too many weather delays that backed up their system. Does that mean they weren't making money...No.

So they dropped SAN and one of two daily BUR flights because of the "weather delays," too?
 
BlueElephant
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):
Saying that they filled X% of seats in and out of CMH is not enough to claim that they are doing "very well."

Lets look at the report than shall we?...because obviously you refuse to show any proof that Skybus is doing poorly at all...

In August 2007...Southwest had 796 landings, and Skybus had 423...This is about 53% of the total flights from CMH.

Southwest had 150,956 passengers, where Skybus had 94,708....Logically speaking....we can deduce from this that Skybus is transfering more passengers than Southwest out of Columbus. This is a clear indication that Skybus is doing Something right....

I understand what you're saying...Just because they're transfering more passengers doesn't mean they're making money...blah blah blah...

Is it a safe assumption, that if they're costs are lower or equivalent to Southwest, and Southwest is doing well, The Skybus is doing well also?

Secondly....Do you have any sort of proof that suggests they are actually doing poorly?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):
Especially considering that they're starting these new routes going into the historically weak first quarter. If they prefer to run routes of shorter stage lengths, why are they adding GSO-BUR in February?

Because by that time they'll have additional aircraft available to them.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):
Go look at the ad here:
http://www.jaunted.com/story/2007/10...s+So+Wants+Portsmouth+To+Be+Boston

Go look at Southwest's route map. Do you see "Boston" on their map? Go look at Skybus's route map. Do you see "Portsmouth, NH" on their route map?

I agree with you on the Ad, They shouldn't be advertising Boston, but saying that They are selling tickets to Boston is completely false..seeing as If you try to BUY a ticket there will be a notice saying....This flight serves Boston through Portsmouth, NH...and If you go to the airport It will say Portsmouth of the Arrivals/Departure Board.

I'm also pretty confident that Portsmouth, MA was a typo.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):

So they dropped SAN and one of two daily BUR flights because of the "weather delays," too?

No, But if those flights aren't doing as well as they wanted to, and they could make more money on Shorter stage length flights, are they at fault for dropping them temporarily?...

Airlines will drop flights if they're not doing as well as planned...Is this this bad?....Does this mean they're doomed?

Holy crap....B6 dropped out of CMH Completely...they're screwed.


Look i'm not saying That some of the things they're doing are correct...Frankly I still don't understand CMH-CHA...but I still don't see any reason to indicate..they're failing...And nobody's been able to prove otherwise.
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 149):
That means they would have to make $26,360.

You forgot 401K, medical and other beneifts that are all a benefit (although US workers tend to ignore cash or benefits they can't spend immeadatetly) those benfits are income whether you see that or not.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 150):
Southwest's ads say "Boston area," and they do state that service is to Manchester or Providence

Southwest had a HUGE (20ft by 50Ft) banner in PHL all summer at the airport (on a parking garage by the international terminal) that said "More flights to Boston" and Providence and Manchester were not mentioned on the add at all.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 150):
You have no evidence that they're doing well at CMH, but it is you who made the claim:

I am not claiming anythihg, I am posting verifiable published numbers.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 150):
I don't see any evidence of that. Summer load factors were below industry average. They're dropping 60% of their transcon flights. Substantiate your claim that they are "doing very well at CMH" or stop making it

I think BlueElephant answered this so well, they adjusted to make more profit, why is that wrong? B6 left ATL and now BNA and CMH and no more OAK-FLL, plus they left and came back to Santo Domingo yet no one said B6 was going to go bankrupt.

Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 154):
Just "Boston". Not "Boston-Portsmouth", not "Boston Area". Just "Boston".

as WN does in several advertising channels as well.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):
Passenger numbers don't tell me anything! FlyI had a 72.5% load factor for the 3rd quarter of 2005 and they still posted an operating margin of -40% for that quarter.

SX has a CASM that is approximately 4 times less than DH had with their CRJs, it's a way different business model. You can't compare them. DH had how many CRJs and A319s? dozens, versus 5 leased A319s. (The leasing company that leased the first 2 A319's also leased to Indy air, they might have actually done some homework before leasing to SX you might think)

Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):
If the routes are doing very well, it would make more sense to keep the expansion plan on the back burner until more aircraft show up

Not really, fast profit up front (i.e. cash flow) is much more important than market share, a lesson the majors could all learn.

[Edited 2007-10-25 17:23:26]
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luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:35 am

Yes though B6 did not leave a city with in its 6 months of start up, now did they.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 158):
Yes though B6 did not leave a city with in its 6 months of start up, now did they

to be fair to B6 they had served both BNA and CMH well over a year.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 156):
Secondly....Do you have any sort of proof that suggests they are actually doing poorly?

I don't think anyone here has brought that proof to the table yet. I have trouble believing that SkyBus is doing as poorly as people seem to think.

1. They're not scrambling in an attempt to reform their business plan.

2. They're expanding into a new focus city with the same business plan they're using in CMH. Would they duplicate something that wasn't working at all?

3. Their prices are low, but they're not insanely low like FlyI was. Some folks act like every seat on the plane is 10 or 20 bucks. The fares go up as more people book a flight. A fair amount of these tickets are close to, and in some cases a little more than you'd pay on a legacy carrier.
Another thing that sets them apart from FlyI is that They had the opportunity to sit around and plan this for years. These routes and fares were more than likely very carefully and thoroughly calculated. I'm sure that every flight has a planned break even load factor and sales total. Provided all flights are meeting this, they should be making money right? If not then the whole business plan is flawed.

They're also flying a319s, not CRJs. The CASM isnt even close.


I'm not some die-hard Skybus fan, but I dont see reason to think they are doomed for failure. They're trying something that we're yet to see take off in the US airline industry. I can see how someone could look at them and say "They sell tickets for 10 dollars, they will fail" but no one here knows their actual costs and revenues.
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 145):
Maybe you didn't see the press releases and several threads on Anet. They will be serving more cities than ever with GSO and expansion in Portsmouth.

I read the threads. Dropping two routes touted as "money makers" from day one by the SX koolaid drinkers cannot be a good sign, regardless of them adding service to Florida. In case you haven't noticed, everybody and their dog flies to Florida. Many will gladly make a connection to get a wider variety and number of flights, and for those who want to arrive in the city they actually want to get to.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 156):
Southwest had 150,956 passengers, where Skybus had 94,708....Logically speaking....we can deduce from this that Skybus is transferring more passengers than Southwest out of Columbus. This is a clear indication that Skybus is doing Something right....

Can you explain, based on these numbers, exactly how Skybus is "doing something right"? They say they do not do connections. So even if this number is valid, how do you figure they are transferring more pax than WN? By my calculations, they come up 56, 248 people short. Sounds like government math to me.
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):
You forgot 401K, medical and other beneifts that are all a benefit (although US workers tend to ignore cash or benefits they can't spend immeadatetly) those benfits are income whether you see that or not.

It is one thing to argue for a model, or against. But this is rediculous. Who argues using wrap? I think this is a comment from an employee of SX who will argue that SX is the best airline ever. Salary is salary and benefits are benefits.

Stats from itsnotfinals just all went out the window with this type of propoganda.

I challenge any supporter of SX to show me the model where SX can stimulate 170% market growth profitably into PGT over the combined market of SRQ and RSW together. I cannot find a single logical argument to support the argument, unless they pull down to a daily only in mid May at the latest.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
CitrusCritter
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 161):
In case you haven't noticed, everybody and their dog flies to Florida. Many will gladly make a connection to get a wider variety and number of flights, and for those who want to arrive in the city they actually want to get to.

Neither Florida airport (PGD or SGJ) is particularly unreasonable for the market it serves (RSW and JAX respectively, plus small add-on respectively for SRQ and DAB). SGJ is more convenient to parts of Jacksonville than JAX itself, especially during peak travel hours, since JAX is on the north side of the river, which requires either use the 295 detour or goign straight through all the downtown construction. PGD just plainly isn't that far from RSW. In fact, I salute SX for "discovering" these two airports, which I consider to be pretty legitimate alternatives. JAX has gate issues and RSW has high fees, so why shouldn't an LCC try these two airports? This is not nearly as close as CHA=ATL or BLI=SEA. Neither is any less truthful than SFB as Orlando, which works fine for G4, FI, and the British tour carriers.
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
crj200faguy
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:07 pm

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):

You forgot 401K, medical and other beneifts that are all a benefit (although US workers tend to ignore cash or benefits they can't spend immeadatetly) those benfits are income whether you see that or not.

I didn't forget, because that's not included in take home pay. That's considered compensation. When I applied at my airline I was told what I'd be paid, not what my total compensation would be. Are you saying that nonrev benefits should be included too? I went to London in business class with a ticket that should cost $9,000. Since I could potentially go there 2 weekends a month, does that make my pay $216,000?

Dude, just admit you work for Skybus or drink their Kool Aid. I don't care if Skybus succeeds or fails, so my opinion isn't biased. Obviously yours is extremely "Go Skybus". This country has an endless amount of people who are cheap, so Skybus filling seats isn't impossible. It's the other things that could doom them, low paid employees, obscure airports, etc. Ryanair and SqueezyJet work in Europe. This isn't Europe.
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 163):
Neither Florida airport (PGD or SGJ) is particularly unreasonable for the market it serves

I'm not arguing that it is unreasonable for the airports they choose. I am sure some people will fly them for various reasons. Still, I venture to say most people who want to fly to JAX or DAB, want to LAND in JAX or DAB. As has been mentioned a million times already, none of these secondary airports have public transportation to the cities they allegedly serve. Not everyone wants or needs to rent a car, which is basically the only option. If I want to go to JAX, I can take a cab or hotel shuttle. You can't do that from St. Augustine (well a cab maybe if you want to pay more than you paid for airfare). I was in JAX a couple months ago and drove to Orlando to see friends. I-95 between St. Augustine and Jacksonville took over two hours due to construction. Maybe some people want to spend their vacation time sitting in traffic, but not all. Plus, from JAX, or RSW, or TPA - pax have many choices of flights. They don't get those options on SX. One or two flights a day, and then only to a focus city. Fine for the folks living in those focus cities perhaps, but no one else. It won't work long term. People are trying them because they are a novelty and they advertise cheap fares. Lets see how much repeat business they get. And as BillReid says, lets see some real numbers. not ones that they had in their press release at startup. Lots of boasting going on about how successful they are, but not a single shred of proof. Methinks they are not doing as swimmingly as some want to believe.
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 161):
I read the threads. Dropping two routes touted as "money makers" from day one by the SX koolaid drinkers cannot be a good sign

why? you have no facts to support this statement.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 161):
Can you explain, based on these numbers, exactly how Skybus is "doing something right"?

they are still in business...you can't argue with that.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 162):
Salary is salary and benefits are benefits.

spoken like someone who doesn't understand that even single person health insurance can cost over 400 dollars a month. Ask anyone including pilots if they would consider subsidized health insurance a benefit, and I bet the answer would be yes/

Quoting BillReid (Reply 162):
Stats from itsnotfinals just all went out the window with this type of propoganda.

since the thread title contradicts itself and is a non-sequiter, you might want to look at yourself here LOL.

[

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 164):
Dude, just admit you work for Skybus or drink their Kool Aid.

Why don't you admit you work for YV?  Smile
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
why? you have no facts to support this statement.

It is you, not I, that makes continual claims that SX is making money, and in past threads talked about especially well the BLI flights were doing. Usually when an airline drops a route is because it is not profitable, no? That seems enough evidence for most of us here.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
they are still in business...you can't argue with that.

Independence Air was still in business after five months too. It means nothing. As others have posted, let's see what happen during the slow fall and winter months and see how many cities they've dropped and new one's they've added, if any.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 164):
Dude, just admit you work for Skybus or drink their Kool Aid.

Why don't you admit you work for YV?

And you had the nerve to call me childish? LOL.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 158):
Yes though B6 did not leave a city with in its 6 months of start up, now did they

I believe ATL was 6 months.
I remember this only because of the bitter discussions that used to be in this forum about why B6 left Atlanta. To this day there are several people who likely would kill each other if in the same room because of the comments made about that topic. I'll leave it at that.

CMH and Nashville were both a year or more, right? Still not a long time in my opinion.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
they are still in business...you can't argue with that.

I don't believe anybody was ever arguing that, were they? Look, people on this site are always going to look for flaws with an airline. Sometimes healthy airlines cut their unprofitable routes and sometimes cutting routes can be a desperation move. I doubt anybody on here is qualified to make that determination about Skybus but we are each entitled to our own opinion.

For the record, I have never been a fan of Skybus' business model or their choice of a "hub". I gave them 12 months when they began operations and I stand by that number. If I am wrong and they make it - and become America's "Ryanair" in size and scope - then great, I'll admit I was wrong.
None shall pass!!!!
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 167):
It is you, not I, that makes continual claims that SX is making money,

I have never even one time said "SX is profitble". and you have already acknowledged that.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 167):
and in past threads talked about especially well the BLI flights were doing. Usually when an airline drops a route is because it is not profitable, no? That seems enough evidence for most of us here.

Actually I have never said BLI was profitable either. It's obvious that they can make more money flying form PSM and GSO to Florida in the winter time, why not take advantage of more profit when possible?

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 167):
And you had the nerve to call me childish? LOL.

I actually never have used that term, but I will never fall for baiting again on this board. I'll just stick with facts. Facts such as:

*Skybus Airlines carried more than 400,000 passengers in its first five months
* Skybus is serving 12 cities with five planes
* Skybus has attracted incentives valued at more than $100 million from Columbus and Greensboro, N.C. to date.

[Edited 2007-10-26 09:26:22]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
ScottB
Posts: 7269
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:27 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 156):
Lets look at the report than shall we?...because obviously you refuse to show any proof that Skybus is doing poorly at all...

In August 2007...Southwest had 796 landings, and Skybus had 423...This is about 53% of the total flights from CMH.

Southwest had 150,956 passengers, where Skybus had 94,708....Logically speaking....we can deduce from this that Skybus is transfering more passengers than Southwest out of Columbus. This is a clear indication that Skybus is doing Something right....

I understand what you're saying...Just because they're transfering more passengers doesn't mean they're making money...blah blah blah...

Is it a safe assumption, that if they're costs are lower or equivalent to Southwest, and Southwest is doing well, The Skybus is doing well also?

Secondly....Do you have any sort of proof that suggests they are actually doing poorly?

Did I make any sort of claim that Skybus was doing poorly? NO. I gave counterexamples to the Skybus booster propaganda that Skybus was "doing very well at CMH." I don't have any evidence that they're doing poorly or doing well -- and for that matter, neither do you.

It is not "a safe assumption, that if they're [sic] costs are lower or equivalent to Southwest, and Southwest is doing well, The [sic] Skybus is doing well also." Even if Skybus's operating costs are lower than Southwest (unproven), we don't know anything about their revenue numbers. $10 fares to SGJ or PSM or PGD won't pay the bills. Even if Skybus is getting more passengers on each plane out of CMH than WN, WN might well be doing far better if their average fare is twice as high.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 156):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 155):
Especially considering that they're starting these new routes going into the historically weak first quarter. If they prefer to run routes of shorter stage lengths, why are they adding GSO-BUR in February?

Because by that time they'll have additional aircraft available to them.

CMH-SAN is being dropped in February...so obviously they had a choice between CMH-SAN and GSO-BUR (not to mention that GSO-BUR is 200 miles farther).

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 156):
but I still don't see any reason to indicate..they're failing...And nobody's been able to prove otherwise.

Dropping routes is usually not a good sign, but it could be for any number of reasons. My beef is with folks who claim they're "doing very well" when there exists no proof whatsoever that this is the case.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):
Southwest had a HUGE (20ft by 50Ft) banner in PHL all summer at the airport (on a parking garage by the international terminal) that said "More flights to Boston" and Providence and Manchester were not mentioned on the add at all.

I'm not from Missouri, but Show me.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):
I am not claiming anythihg, I am posting verifiable published numbers.

You are making claims based on published numbers which are not sufficient to prove your point. If their break-even load factor is 110%, a 77% load factor is horrible.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):
B6 left ATL and now BNA and CMH and no more OAK-FLL, plus they left and came back to Santo Domingo yet no one said B6 was going to go bankrupt.

At the time, B6 had a track record of profitability that could be verified through their filings with the SEC. B6's JFK-Florida routes were and likely still are their bread and butter.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):
SX has a CASM that is approximately 4 times less than DH had with their CRJs, it's a way different business model.

And DH's RASM was also likely far above SX's RASM.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 157):
Not really, fast profit up front (i.e. cash flow) is much more important than market share

Actually a better lesson is that market-building for future profits is better than fast cash flow.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 164):
Dude, just admit you work for Skybus or drink their Kool Aid.

Why don't you admit you work for YV?

Mesa would be relevant if this were a thread about Mesa. If one is a paid shill for Skybus, that fact would be relevant in this thread.

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 160):
3. Their prices are low, but they're not insanely low like FlyI was. Some folks act like every seat on the plane is 10 or 20 bucks. The fares go up as more people book a flight.

FlyI wasn't selling every seat on the plane for $10 or $20 either. The big question is whether Skybus sells many profitable seats per plane. FlyI wasn't doing that.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 170):
I'm not from Missouri, but Show me.

Anyone from PHL can confirm this, sorry I didn't take a picture LOL.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 170):
You are making claims based on published numbers which are not sufficient to prove your point. If their break-even load factor is 110%, a 77% load factor is horrible.

I am not proving any point, I am posting facts:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 169):
*Skybus Airlines carried more than 400,000 passengers in its first five months
* Skybus is serving 12 cities with five planes
* Skybus has attracted incentives valued at more than $100 million from Columbus and Greensboro, N.C. to date


[quote=ScottB,reply=170]At the time, B6 had a track record of profitability that could be verified through their filings with the SEC. B6's JFK-Florida routes were and likely still are their bread and butter.

If you say so.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 170):
FlyI wasn't selling every seat on the plane for $10 or $20 either. The big question is whether Skybus sells many profitable seats per plane. FlyI wasn't doing that.

Skybus only sells 10 seats for 10 dollars, as have been a fact since day 1. Most fares I just looked up for for BUR are 75 to 335 each way in November.



If you have an opinion that is great, but don't call people shills and say anything atal and claim it
has to be fact"  Smile
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ScottB
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 171):
Skybus only sells 10 seats for 10 dollars, as have been a fact since day 1. Most fares I just looked up for for BUR are 75 to 335 each way in November.

No, Skybus says there are at least ten seats for ten dollars on each flight:

Quote:
10 seats for $10* each – on every flight! That’s right, each and every Skybus flight has a minimum of ten seats available for just ten dollars. It’s for real – but these seats go quickly, so be sure to book early and book often!

I doubt there are many flights with more than ten $10 seats, but it wouldn't surprise me there are more on low travel days like Tuesday and Wednesday on relatively weak routes like CMH-PSM.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 171):
If you have an opinion that is great, but don't call people shills

I called no one a shill; I said:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 170):
If one is a paid shill for Skybus, that fact would be relevant in this thread.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 171):
I am not proving any point, I am posting facts:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 169):
*Skybus Airlines carried more than 400,000 passengers in its first five months
* Skybus is serving 12 cities with five planes
* Skybus has attracted incentives valued at more than $100 million from Columbus and Greensboro, N.C. to date

Unfortunately none of those are sufficient to prove your prior statement that they are:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 131):
still doing very well at CMH.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 172):
I doubt there are many flights with more than ten $10 seats, but it wouldn't surprise me there are more on low travel days like Tuesday and Wednesday on relatively weak routes like CMH-PSM.

If you look on the front page of their website it says "10 seat for 10 dollars on every flight" so you're quote isn't right.


Also looking at their booking engine CMH-PSM shows the lowest fares one way as:
Oct 26 $155
Oct 27 $135
Oct 28 $155
Oct 29 $115
Oct 30 $95
Oct 31 $95

Nov 1 $55
Nov 2 $55
Nov 3 $55
Nov 4 $75
Nov 5 $55
Nov 6 $55
Nov 7 $55
Nov 8 $55
Nov 9 $55
Nov 10 $55
Nov 11 $55
Nov 12 $75
Nov 13 $55
Nov 14 $55
Nov 15 $55
Nov 16 $75
Nov 17 $95
Nov 18 $75
Nov 19 $55
Nov 20 $115
Nov 21 $180
Nov 22 $75
Nov 23 $75
Nov 24 $115
Nov 25 $250
Nov 26 $135
Nov 27 $55
Nov 28 $35
Nov 29 $35
Nov 30 $55


December no tickets below 35 dollars, several days at 75 dollars




no 10 or 20 dollar fares are avaialble at all in fact for CMH-PSM for the rest of 2007.



Again, facts

[Edited 2007-10-26 13:34:18]
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luv2fly
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 173):
December no tickets below 35 dollars, several days at 75 dollars




no 10 or 20 dollar fares are avaialble at all in fact for CMH-PSM for the rest of 2007.



Again, facts

That fact though could change if they decide to add some lower fares to stimulate sales. Fares and availability can and does change like the weather.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
Just because they cancelled the flights doesn't mean they were losing money.

Oh hell yes it does. When an airline drops a route or a destination, it is because that route/destination was not making money. That applies for Skybus just like it applies to Delta, Southwest, American, Air France, Singapore or whomever.

Some people state that they needed the planes elsewhere to facilitate expansion. So riddle me this:
If a carrier has a proven route that DOES make money for them, why would they cancel it to instead launch an unproven route that COULD make money for them?

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 163):
JAX has gate issues and RSW has high fees, so why shouldn't an LCC try these two airports?

SGJ doesn't even have any gates to begin with, they have a GA terminal with a large tent now added that is supposed to be a "passenger terminal".

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 163):
. SGJ is more convenient to parts of Jacksonville than JAX itself, especially during peak travel hours, since JAX is on the north side of the river, which requires either use the 295 detour or goign straight through all the downtown construction.

There is this thing called SR-9A beltlining Jacksonville to the east, and it is a big speed improvement over both I-95 and I-295. And just like you say that JAX is north of the river, the same can be said for SGJ being south of the river and being a nuisance to get to for people living north of I-10, it's a moot point. And at least at JAX I can actually find a free parking spot, or alternatively a good choice of rental cars unlike at SGJ.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 175):
Oh hell yes it does. When an airline drops a route or a destination, it is because that route/destination was not making money.

again, your opinion only no fact there. It's pretty clear that SX has only so many plans and to get the millions in GSO incentives, they chose to reploy assets.

They are keeping one CMH-BUR flight year round so if it was so bad why are they adding GSO-BUR also?
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MAH4546
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:16 pm

It's funny how the Skybus lovers hid when Skybus announced the route cuts, including the discontinuation of what was boasted to have been "Skybus' best route" (BLI), and now that there is "good" news (GSO focus city), they come out of hiding. What happens when there is bad news again?

[Edited 2007-10-26 16:30:15]
a.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 176):
again, your opinion only no fact there

Yes, of course, something that hundreds of airlines all across the globe do doesn't apply to Skybus, I forgot  Yeah sure .

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 176):
It's pretty clear that SX has only so many plans and to get the millions in GSO incentives, they chose to reploy assets.

Again, I reiterate my question:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 175):
If a carrier has a proven route that DOES make money for them, why would they cancel it to instead launch an unproven route that COULD make money for them?

Even more so if one of the cancelled routes, like MAH mentions, was supposedly "Skybus' best route".
 
ScottB
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 173):
If you look on the front page of their website it says "10 seat for 10 dollars on every flight" so you're [sic] quote isn't right.

And if you actually go deeper into thw web site, you'll notice the following here:

http://ask.skybus.com/offers/promotions.shtml

Quote:
10 seats for $10* each – on every flight! That’s right, each and every Skybus flight has a minimum of ten seats available for just ten dollars. It’s for real – but these seats go quickly, so be sure to book early and book often!

Or here:

http://ask.skybus.com/about/skybus/s..._detail.aspx?NewsPressReleaseID=30

Quote:
Skybus offers at least 10 seats at $10* on every flight, every day.

Which of these quotes is not clear to you?

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 173):
Also looking at their booking engine CMH-PSM shows the lowest fares one way as:

And this proves what? That they sold out of the number of $10 fares that they had chosen to offer on those days? Do they turn a profit on a $10 fare?
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 176):
again, your opinion only no fact there. It's pretty clear that SX has only so many plans and to get the millions in GSO incentives, they chose to reploy assets.

So, apparently the only way they can make money is to get subsidized by airports begging for additional service. It is indeed a fact that if an airline drops a city, it's 99.9999% because it's a money loser. Or did B6 just drop BNA and CMH because they got an incentive from another airport to beef up service? Your arguments change with each passing thread, and they get less and less credible. For months, all the SX koolaid drinkers could talk about was the ingenious idea of using BLI. How funny, no one can even come up with a rational excuse to make for Skybus on why they are now bailing, other than redeploying assets. As DAL767400ER said, you do NOT dump a profitable route to go into an unknown market with no idea whether it will be profitable. Come on guys, at least have the guts to admit they screwed up with BLI and SAN, and they are trying something new. It would give both the airline and your posts some credibility.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 179):
Which of these quotes is not clear to you?

Um you're not helping yourself , it says "at least" not "sometimes more than 10" LOL

Quoting ScottB (Reply 179):
And this proves what? That they sold out of the number of $10 fares that they had chosen to offer on those days? Do they turn a profit on a $10 fare?

I didn't say it proved anything, just that your statement that "there are plenty of 10 and 20 dollar tickets " (a price point they don't offer) was not factual.

I went back to the very very first posts about SX and surprisinngly the thread starter claimed to be involoved in early talks about "Revenue Diversion" LOL whatever that is.  

Skybus Airlines (by Avion346 Sep 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)

BILL REID said on Sepember 4,2006:

"I spoke some time backwith Skybus. They were very interested in the Ryanair model but were not aware of the revenue diversion laws set by congress."




who was the someone Bill? what is this shadowy "Revenue Diversion law" you're speaking of?

not this I hope:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/acrp/acrp_legal_rfp_1-02.pdf

LOL

http://www.columbusairports.com/medi...60_NoticeInvitingPublicComment.pdf

looks like CMH is going keep making very nice income on PFCs and will easily get their 11 Million in terminal investments back. Kind of the opposite of revenue diversion.

[Edited 2007-10-26 16:57:13]
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 180):
Or did B6 just drop BNA and CMH because they got an incentive from another airport to beef up service?

Why don't you ask B6 that question? they announced service expansions just days before they dropped those cities. They never said they were money losers, just that they were not doing as expected.

AP release mentions nothing about losing money:

"The New York-based low-cost carrier made the decision after a detailed review of traffic and sales trends, Chief Executive Dave Barger said in a statement."

Official B6 To POP And SXM (by B6MoneyGuyJFK Oct 11 2007 in Civil Aviation)


Sorry
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SkyyMaster
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 182):
They never said they were money losers, just that they were not doing as expected.

Somewhat true yes, The Nashville Tennessean quoted a JetBlue spoekesman as stating BNA was dropped because it was underperforming. You can call it what you want. I've been on probably 10 B6 flights BNA-JFK-BNA. Rarely were they more than 50-60% full. I don't know what B6's break even is, but obvious they felt the "could not make money" on the route so they dropped it. Semantics here. Airlines don't leave cities that are profitable. B6 has enough a/c that they can make schedule adjustments without dropping destinations. You can slice it, dice it, any way you like. SX could not make BLI and SAN work, so they dropped them. The fact one or two people agree with you and the majority of the posts don't would seem to indicate your summer-long boasting about how well SX is doing may be premature.
 
billreid
Topic Author
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 181):
what is this shadowy "Revenue Diversion law" you're speaking of?

It appears this thread should be cut off as it is now a "Itsnotfinals" against the world.

I lost all respect for the comments from him when he shows such a level of distain for the law?
The law refers to what airports may do with their revenues. The former employee was not aware of the laws where revenues may not be diverted away from their sources. regardless the arguments from this a.netter have gotten out of hand and should be ommitted.

As for starting the original thread I did so believing SX will fail regardless of its business model because of management structure and lack of experience. When they choose airports they do not consider long term survivabilty but simply shoot from the hip.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
crj200faguy
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
Quoting BillReid (Reply 162):
Salary is salary and benefits are benefits.

spoken like someone who doesn't understand that even single person health insurance can cost over 400 dollars a month. Ask anyone including pilots if they would consider subsidized health insurance a benefit, and I bet the answer would be yes/

Before clicking to post, maybe you should read what you typed. He said benefits are benefits. So yes, a pilot would answer health insurance is a benefit. So you basically confirmed what he was saying.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 166):
Why don't you admit you work for YV?

I'll be glad to admit it when I get a job there. I am confused at what Mesa has to do with your obvious love of Skybus or the airline that employs me. I never compared Skybus to anyone else. I simply gave facts to prove your claims of FA pay were improbable. I guess since that's the only comeback you can think. You are conceding that I am correct.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 186):
Before clicking to post, maybe you should read what you typed. He said benefits are benefits. So yes, a pilot would answer health insurance is a benefit. So you basically confirmed what he was saying.

Their base bay (As everyone's base pay in the US) does not include benefits or tax deferred income, as you probably know.

YV is known as the lowest paid in the industry yet you don't see people on here trashing them non stop like people do SX.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:29 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 184):
The former employee was not aware of the laws where revenues may not be diverted away from their sources. regardless the arguments from this a.netter have gotten out of hand and should be ommitted.

Revenue diversion discusses the way Airports may use FAA funding for development. It has nothing to do with Skybus whatsoever.

SX employees would have no reason to know or worry about this concept since it has nothing to do with operating an airline.

Please read the links above to learn more about this so mis-information is not spread on Anet.
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billreid
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:38 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 148):
they have stated F/A will earn an average of 35,000 a year.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 187):
Their base bay (As everyone's base pay in the US) does not include benefits or tax deferred income, as you probably know.
[quote=Itsnotfinals,reply=157]You forgot 401K, medical and other benefits that are all a benefit (although US workers tend to ignore cash or benefits they can't spend immediately) those benefits are income whether you see that or not.

Benefits do not pay the mortgage, food bills or car payments. This is basic "cash flow" flawed. Without cash flow business and people do not survive. No-one bases an employment plan on benefits. The argument is ludicrous. You can offer any a.netter a million in benefits, but without salary the employee can't and won't take the job. Additionally if SX doesn't survive, with us all knowing more than 9 out of 10 start up airlines don't make it to through their fifth year, how much are the benefits worth afterwards? Are these benefits fully protected and untouchable by management? Unlikely....

Where I mostly remain skeptical is the movement of assets around on very short notice. I am now very concerned that they may be transforming into a ACMI leasing operator. They have already burnt a good will in the west, and now GSO is a new product? How long will this last? What happens when another state offers financial support? Or the NC funds dry up?

65 aircraft on the way in and they cannot maintain the first cities with a few acft indicates a business model on a thread. So how do they become the one of ten that survives? CMH doesn't support long term success for 65 birds?
Generally a planner will maintain a list of your top 20, 30 or 60 or so cities, if five of the first ten fail or don't meet expectations then what do you do with the remaining 55 aircraft? At weaker airports, then the probability of sucess is driven lower mathamatically. The business plan should have laid out the sure bets for start-up and if those can't make it then the long term perspective is very weak.

To put this into a perspective: If I were to start a chain of widget stores I would open them where I think sucess is highly gaurenteed, if five of the first ten choices have to be adjusted or dropped within three to six months of opening I then critically absorb huge operational losses (a cost I cannot accept as a start-up business) as well as damage to my brand.......... The SX brand is not strong at all, that will take a minimum of two years to build. Further more, movement of assets and the draw-down of the west breeds a level of fear in the consumer towards whether the brand will indeed survive. I for one suggest buying SX tickets from one perspective "If you can afford to lose the cash, then its worth the risk. If you want to be assured of a seat then it would be a lower risk with a more reputable airline."

CMH just lost B6 which should be very concerning to Elaine and staff at CMH. If SX eventually fails CMH may end up with an extremely damaged (trashed) market with less service than it started with. DL planning recently mentioned concern was not with the SX routes, but rather their concern is similar to mine; SX may damage yield and reduce consumer expectations at CMH to a level where other airlines will not be able to serve the market with sustainable yeilds. The $10 fare carries a great deal of baggage with impact on other service at CMH. The first tower just tumbled with B6 departing. SX may transform CMH into a PIT without a similar business base of PIT. Oil just hit $92 which puts further pressure on the revenue side of the ledger as the loss per seat will rise on the low end of the scale. SX may eventually be forced to increase the number of $10 and $20 fares available to get a level of cash flow with seats being perishable, in an attempt to build loyalty.

The problem is the $10 gimmick. It places the brand into a very very very very low value category.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 189):
Benefits do not pay the mortgage, food bills or car payments. This is basic "cash flow" flawed. Without cash flow business and people do not survive

So re-deploying assets to a new hub and gettig further financial incentives which add to cash flow (which SX is doing) is doing exactly what you are saying "cash is king" .

If you don't like the wage don't take the job, it's really that easy. You don't see school teachers demanding 100K, they know what the job pays when they take it.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 189):
I am now very concerned that they may be transforming into a ACMI leasing operator.

um...ACMI is wet leasing:

ACMI - Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance & InsuranceThe LESSOR provides the aircraft, one or more complete crews (including engineers) including their salaries and usually allowances, all maintenance for the aircraft and insurance, which usually includes hull and third party liability. The LESSOR will charge for the block hour (choc off to choc on) and depending on the aircraft type sets a minimum guaranteed block hours limit per month. If the airplane flies or not, the LESSEE must pay the amount for the minimum guaranteed block hours

I think you threw in one too many acronyms in this thread. the chance of SX going ACMI is 0.00001%

Quoting BillReid (Reply 189):
So how do they become the one of ten that survives? CMH doesn't support long term success for 65 birds?

As anyone who has read about Skybus the "65 birds" are to be used at up to 8 focus cities. With the addition of GSO and PSM P2P to Punta Gorda they have only 7 aircraft, they actually need more aircraft.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 189):
CMH just lost B6 which should be very concerning to Elaine and staff at CMH

Not really, B6 routes all had overlap non-stop service with DL, AA, CO, and US. The SX model does not directly compete with those carriers and enhances choices for consumers. 400,000 PFCs paid is a pretty nice number for the Airport Authority.

[

Quoting BillReid (Reply 189):
The problem is the $10 gimmick. It places the brand into a very very very very low value category.

WN certainly was perceived as very low value, and now they are the largest domestic carrier in the US.

No one seems to be laughing at Ryaniar or Easy Jet either.
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billreid
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 189):

I think you threw in one too many acronyms in this thread. the chance of SX going ACMI is 0.00001%



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 189):
So re-deploying assets to a new hub and gettig further financial incentives which add to cash flow (which SX is doing) is doing exactly what you are saying "cash is king" .
Not to the employee which was the issue. You suggested that benefits were part of salary, this has nil to do with company cash flow discussions. Please read before you type!

If you don't like the wage don't take the job, it's really that easy. You don't see school teachers demanding 100K, they know what the job pays when they take it.

You first argued that the FA's are making a very good p/t 46K now you say this? Please, lets keep the arguments consistent.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 189):
400,000 PFCs paid is a pretty nice number for the Airport Authority.

Not part of the equation. PFC's do not go to day to day airport operations. Irrelevant, to success, unless we suggest violating federal revenue diversion laws which is a felony?
PFCs are slated for non operational purposes. Rates and fees are for day to day airport operations. Any revenues that are not directly generated by the airline can not be used to subsidize the service at the front end. That being said, landing fees and terminal fees may be waived for a one year period only under the law. After the year the airline MUST pay its way, or the airport risks losing federal subsidies for everything. This means no revenue source may rebate or assist the airline even that airlines own paid rates and fees. Why, because it is the airlines responsibility to pay its way not the local tax payers.

Similarly, revenues may not at any time be diverted to one area from another under revenue diversion laws. That means parking revenues may not be used to subsidize airlines operations. For your information this was tested in the courts in Europe between the EU and Ryanair. Ryanair lost and has been ordered to repay subsidies to Brussels-Charleroi. What is interesting is the airport also prefers to allow Ryanair to proceed as was because they risk losing the service without the massive subsidies. The same will occur in the USA because the large airlines such as AA have a very strong lobby in Washington and these laws will not be ignored by either the FAA or Congress. In a battle between AA, DL, US, US, CO, NW versus SX and a fly-by-night airport SX loses. The government leans towards the highest economic generator and SX isn't on the top 1,000 company list yet. Those who generate the highest tax revenues naturally win in Washington?

Interestingly, the law was tested by the SRQ CEO two years ago when the Authority requested use of reserves to aid airline service. Our congress did not change the law based on strong lobbying pressure from the airlines. Another airport, MLB has over $15,000,000 in reserves. Do you think SX would be willing to offer flights using these funds for support? Unfortunately, MLB can't use the funds or they would have seen SX there PDQ!

So if you want to discuss Airport revenues take a course, join AAAE visit with ACI, DG-7 before you suggest to understand the government regulated airport processes.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:15 pm

April 2004:
http://columbus.bizjournals.com/colu...2004/04/19/daily9.html?jst=b_ln_hl


as well as several Anet posts in 2004-2005 all said "Ryanair model" well before the sept 2006 thread.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 190):
Similarly, revenues may not at any time be diverted to one area from another under revenue diversion laws.

SX does not write checks out of the CMH operating accounts. It would be nice to see what laws are supposedly being broken here.

CMH has realized 1,800,000 in PFC revenue from SX in just 4.5 months while adding several new non-stop markets for CMH citizens.

Are you implying that the Airport Authority is feloniously diverting funds?

That would be called libel in most courts.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 190):
You first argued that the FA's are making a very good p/t 46K now you say this? Please, lets keep the arguments consistent.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 148):
they have stated F/A will earn an average of 35,000 a year. Also your duty times are way off as SX currently does not have RON's.

not sure where 46,000 came from.

The logic of getting more profit and incentives will help SX pay their employees that's all.


it's funny that 14 months later the "revenue diversion" comment which no one mentined except in a thread 13 months ago is now the cause celeb .

Looks like all the real arguments are over about SX for now.

[Edited 2007-10-28 14:44:05]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:29 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 190):
Are you implying that the Airport Authority is feloniously diverting funds?

That would be called libel in most courts.



Quoting BillReid (Reply 190):
Not part of the equation. PFC's do not go to day to day airport operations. Irrelevant, to success, unless we suggest violating federal revenue diversion laws which is a felony?

Where does anyone suggest CMH has done anything wrong?????????
"We" means the a.netters, or bloggers on this thread. CMH would be CMH.
Please do not twist words, you take a very dangerous path...

No you mentioned PFC's, and implied that the airport was directly benefiting from these. You clerely do not understand airport operations. Once again you mention PFC's at CMH. Irrevelant... no where did anyone mention diversion of funds were occuring at CMH. Just as Benefits are not part of salary, PFC's are not part of operations for an airport. PFC's have restricted use.


Yes all the real arguments are over and have been for awhile, especially when you suggest a comment on this thread is libelious with the use of the word "WE"?????
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 192):
Where does anyone suggest CMH has done anything wrong?????????



Quoting BillReid (Reply 192):
no where did anyone mention diversion of funds were occuring at CMH


Quoting BillReid (Reply 184):
The law refers to what airports may do with their revenues. The former employee was not aware of the laws where revenues may not be diverted away from their sources. .

You implied SX didn't "know" how airports can use their funds which again is not somethimg SX even has to worry about, then you never answered anything. At least you took it back now.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 188):
I am now very concerned that they may be transforming into a ACMI leasing operator

I thought you said they are going out of business anyway, why are you concerned?

Quoting BillReid (Reply 192):
"WE"?????

I have never used the word WE in this thread in regard to anything you said. Too funny.

[Edited 2007-10-28 15:47:17]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 193):
You implied SX didn't "know" how airports can use their funds which again is not somethimg SX even has to worry about, then you never answered anything. At least you took it back now.

Nope! I implied the a particular poster on thread is clueless on how airports work!!!!!
However, by your comment above I can now assume that you are SX? javascript:smilie_click('laughing')

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 193):
I have never used the word WE in this thread in regard to anything you said. Too funny.

Nope. Again the poster has a problem comprehending my post.
It was I who said "WE". I never said it was anyone else. This is the third consecutive time you have failed to read and comprehend a posting.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:23 am

PLEASE close this thread asap.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 194):
Nope! I implied the a particular poster on thread is clueless on how airports work!!!!!

Wow, down to calling names, that certainly says a lot.

There seems to be no actual information to back up your post, over 10,000 people have read this thread and are probably scratching their heads as to your point (s)? concerning Skybus or the Columbus Airport Authority, Maybe you should have never started the thread in the first place.


you said :

Quoting BillReid (Reply 192):
Yes all the real arguments are over and have been for awhile, especially when you suggest a comment on this thread is libelious with the use of the word "WE"?????

"when you" means me. not yourself. LOL


The facts are:

Skybus has 5 aircraft, they will have 7 by the end of the year.

They agreed to add flights to Florida from PSM which was an opportunistic happenstance, they are taking advantage of as quickly as they can.

Received very nice incentives from GSO to start a focus city there by early January 2008.

They annouced a plan to re-align assets for now until they can start adding more aircraft by cuttng 2 west coast cities, yet adding more service to BUR in the form of an additional city pair.

Yeilds, CASM and RASM, etc are not released so no one knows what exactly is going on with that. LF of approximately 77% have been posted all summer long on Anet.

400,000 passengers have been served already



these are just the verifiable facts.

[Edited 2007-10-28 20:22:30]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 196):
Yeilds, CASM and RASM, etc are not released so no one knows what exactly is going on with that.

That being said, this thread was one of the most impressive strings of assumptions I've ever seen.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 196):
LF of approximately 77% have been posted all summer long on Anet.

Was that official, or did an employee just ballpark it?
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 197):
That being said, this thread was one of the most impressive strings of assumptions I've ever seen.

LOL agreed !

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 197):
Was that official, or did an employee just ballpark it?

it was official.

It's been posted on Anet from sources including the Columbus Dispatch and several outside folks from Anet that did the math from the Port Columbus traffic numbers .
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 196):
Yeilds, CASM and RASM, etc are not released so no one knows what exactly is going on with that. LF of approximately 77% have been posted all summer long on Anet.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 196):
these are just the verifiable facts.

If no one knows, as you state, that would be a direct contradiction (of yourself) on the same post??

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 196):
There seems to be no actual information to back up your post

Please, what info are you refering to?
See direct above??

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 196):
you said :

Quoting BillReid (Reply 192):
Yes all the real arguments are over and have been for awhile, especially when you suggest a comment on this thread is libelious with the use of the word "WE"?????

"when you" means me. not yourself. I think you might want to re read your own posts.e



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 191):
That would be called libel in most courts.

Excuse me. Look at the poster?
Again you contradict yourself, jees .... you introduced the word "libel" you brought this into play.

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 197):
Was that official, or did an employee just ballpark it?

Thank you.. I am sure thats why the west coast flights were drawn down.
Ball park is generous.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!

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