NYC777
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Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:57 pm

Taking another page from the 787 I see:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...r-a350-self-darkening-windows.html

Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:15 pm

Thanks for the article, a lot of good information.  yummy 
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Glareskin
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

This type of window is not new nor invented by Boeing. The fact that the 787 is the first commercial aircraft where it is applied is a matter of timing. It was the first occasion where it's availability was relatively affordable.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:43 pm

I like the idea, so I am pleased to see Airbus offering it to their customers, as well.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:57 pm

I'm not sure what the point of offering a window shade on top of the darkening feature. One benefit of the darkening feature is less weight associated with shades and less maintenance costs for when passengers break them.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
hb88
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm not sure what the point of offering a window shade on top of the darkening feature.

For when the electronic shade fails! Alas, I'm looking on the 787 shades somewhat pessimistically in terms of reliability. Incorporating manual shades makes very good sense IMO.

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):

Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Uh, not imitating Boeing here I think. Wasn't the first use of darkening shades proposed on the L1011?
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:11 pm

I still don't think it's a good idea. If you're on a daylight longhaul and just 1 of the 30 or so electronic blinds around your seat either side of the aircraft goes u/s, that'd be one very unforgettable flight. I suppose they can always gaffe tape the inflight mag against the u/s blind. What if the master switch tripped and all shades go u/s!?  melting 
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting HB88 (Reply 5):
Uh, not imitating Boeing here I think. Wasn't the first use of darkening shades proposed on the L1011?

Don't know about the L1011 (a product that came out 30 years ago) but the 787 is the first commercial aircraft to use it and Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):

Don't know about the L1011 (a product that came out 30 years ago) but the 787 is the first commercial aircraft to use it and Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.

Electronic dimmable window shade systems is available on any Beechcraft King Air aircraft, only 6000+ of them in operation.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:42 pm

I wonder why theyd didnt do this on the A-380.

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

If you cant beat em, join em.
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khobar
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
Electronic dimmable window shade systems is available on any Beechcraft King Air aircraft, only 6000+ of them in operation.

As of February 2007.

LOL.
 
voodoo
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:58 pm

Older (mechanical vs. electro-chemical) technology but same effect: the Dassault Mercures used by Air Inter had polarized window layers that upon rotation would darken the window. I think Hefner had these in the Playboy DC-9 as well.
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masseybrown
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I like the idea, so I am pleased to see Airbus offering it to their customers, as well.

I'm not sure I do. I like watching the clouds roll by, the landscape change. Why should the FA decide when I can do that? I have a feeling SOP will be to dim the view 5 minutes after takeoff and leave it dim for the whole flight so people can watch their video screens.
 
Analog
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
I still don't think it's a good idea. If you're on a daylight longhaul and just 1 of the 30 or so electronic blinds around your seat either side of the aircraft goes u/s, that'd be one very unforgettable flight. I suppose they can always gaffe tape the inflight mag against the u/s blind. What if the master switch tripped and all shades go u/s!? melting

The manual shades break all the time. That's what the safety cards are there for.

(Well, maybe not all the time.)
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
I'm not sure I do. I like watching the clouds roll by, the landscape change. Why should the FA decide when I can do that? I have a feeling SOP will be to dim the view 5 minutes after takeoff and leave it dim for the whole flight so people can watch their video screens.

The advantage is that, while they shall be dim, they shall not be opaque.

So you can still see the landscape go by (albeit not at "full brightness") as opposed to having to keep the window shade only slightly cracked to keep the light down.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 9):

I wonder why theyd didnt do this on the A-380.

Because Boeing didn't think of it back then. It does seem like more of a copy of the 787. I wonder when they will announce the A350 goes all electric / bleed-less? I actually wouldn't be surprised if Airbus ordered 4 Boeing 747 Dreamlifters to fly in the A350 barrels.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.

As Boeing is following Airbus' every time they build a widebody twin.

NS
 
Rbgso
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 bigthumbsup 

When Boeing first offered this, Airbus dismissed it as marketing fluff. Same deal with composites and the A350.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Which is how we ended up with the 787 in the first place. The 764-400 and 777-100 were never going to have much impact on the A330's market.

edit: add the 777-200A to that list.

[Edited 2007-10-18 15:42:49]
 
MD-90
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:29 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
Electronic dimmable window shade systems is available on any Beechcraft King Air aircraft, only 6000+ of them in operation.

Apocryphally, it was Walt Disney himself who suggested the idea to Beechcraft.
 
DIA
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.

In the 787's case, yes, they are.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 9):
I wonder why they didn't do this on the A-380.

If the A380 was at the point the A350 is today, they most certainly would have. I'd say look for them on future improved versions of the A380.



At this point, the A350 is certainly riding the 787's technology and order success hard. If I were Airbus, I'd be doing the same thing. At this point in the A350 game, they can't afford to dump more money into obscure technology yet to be defined and viable, and they can't afford to lose more time. They will stick with what will work...even if Boeing pioneered some of the technology...that's competetive business for you.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
As Boeing is following Airbus' every time they build a widebody twin.

AA put out an RFP in 1966. McD and Lockheed both designed twin-engine "jumbo" jets in response. There's a lot of history surrounding this, but to suggest that the concept was somehow invented by Airbus is pretty silly.
 
FAEDC3
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 15):
I actually wouldn't be surprised if Airbus ordered 4 Boeing 747 Dreamlifters to fly in the A350 barrels.

Yeah right... talk about follow the lead  Wink

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.

As Boeing is following Airbus' every time they build a widebody twin.



Quoting Khobar (Reply 21):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
As Boeing is following Airbus' every time they build a widebody twin.

AA put out an RFP in 1966. McD and Lockheed both designed twin-engine "jumbo" jets in response. There's a lot of history surrounding this, but to suggest that the concept was somehow invented by Airbus is pretty silly.

Who cares if it was invented by Aztecs 2.000 years ago. It makes sense practically and economically to use now, Boeing saw it and put it first. That´s fine, now the A350 will, fine by me, if it makes travelling more pleasant thank god, whoever thought of it first.

This discussion is one more of those "my dad can beat yours" discussions
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 5):
For when the electronic shade fails! Alas, I'm looking on the 787 shades somewhat pessimistically in terms of reliability. Incorporating manual shades makes very good sense IMO.

If you have a manual shade, why would you bother with the electronic ones? The advantage of the electrics is less weight, less maintenance, and central control when necessary. You give all of those up by putting on manual shades, so why would you then pick up the cost of electrics with none of the advantages?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.

As Boeing is following Airbus' every time they build a widebody twin.

So which Airbus model was the 777 a copy of, exactly?

Tom.
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:01 am

I'd hardly call Airbus a follower. Granted they may have had to play catch up on the 787.

Things like composites, wingtip fences, widebody twins have been pioneered on passenger aircraft by Airbus. While I like all aircraft, it irks me when the discussion is so one sided in either direction.
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 18):
Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Which is how we ended up with the 787 in the first place.

Well true, the Airbus A300 was the first twin engine widebody, then 767 then A330 then 787 then A350.

This thread is not about the widebody airplane frame, but instead, about the darkening windows, which Boeing just happened to use first. Somebody had to. Its not the greatest invention since sliced bread.

Of course Airbus has to use them now too. A380 has heads up display first, and now Boeing made that standard on 787 too.

Everything is so similar these days. The 737 RS , and next version A320 will probably be very close in design, same engines too.

I wonder if Boeing will ever go to the joystick.
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 25):
I wonder if Boeing will ever go to the joystick.

Very good question! I doubt it though. As a private pilot, I like having a yoke, but joystick is no problem when I have flown sims.
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gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 21):
There's a lot of history surrounding this, but to suggest that the concept was somehow invented by Airbus is pretty silly.

Sure. You're quite right.

Boeing in no way invented electrochromic technology or darkening windows.

NS
 
iwok
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Taking another page from the 787 I see:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...r-a350-self-darkening-windows.html

Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

I wonder if we should take bets on a round fuselage and bleedless being next  duck 

This one does seem like a no brainer. By the time the 350 rolls around in 7-8 years, the technology should be well proven.

iwok
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 27):
Boeing in no way invented electrochromic technology or darkening windows.

 Big grin You know it may be my rapidly aging memory, but I can remember that that stuff was on those "Towards 2000" shows at one time. Now it's here and going to be installed. Feel old now.
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Glareskin
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 22):
This discussion is one more of those "my dad can beat yours" discussions

Welcome to A-net! Without A vs B it wouldn't be half as exiting! But unfortunately this is sometime the consequence:

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 24):
Things like composites, wingtip fences, widebody twins have been pioneered on passenger aircraft by Airbus. While I like all aircraft, it irks me when the discussion is so one sided in either direction.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
So which Airbus model was the 777 a copy of, exactly?

The A300! It's just the typical 'in America we make things bigger'  Smile The is no substitute for cubic inches.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 24):
Things like composites, wingtip fences, widebody twins have been pioneered on passenger aircraft by Airbus.

I give you the widebody twin. Composites and wingtip fences were on passenger aircraft long before the A300.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 30):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
So which Airbus model was the 777 a copy of, exactly?

The A300!

Are we seriously comparing the A300 and 777?

Tom.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Are we seriously comparing the A300 and 777?

What is the difference?
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On

Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):

I give you the widebody twin. Composites and wingtip fences were on passenger aircraft long before the A300.

Which and when? I don't know.


Edit : Other than business jets. They have long been at the forefront of technology.

[Edited 2007-10-18 23:21:45]
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Joni
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:30 am

IIRC Airbus was at some point planning to have this feature on the A380 as well.
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:06 am

From the looks of it, if a window is out of service, it reverts to full dimming, so sleepy-time shouldn't be a problem. What I wonder is, in the unfortunate event of an accident, would there be any danger caused by all the windows blanking out? Where's Dan Rather's investigative reporting when you need it lol. Though it adds weight etc etc, I like the idea of the dimmer and the shade..that way you can have a full-clarity view of the ground while using the shade to block out the top half of the window, in order to hide the sun.
.
 
columba
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Taking another page from the 787 I see:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...r-a350-self-darkening-windows.html

Well the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Well if Airbus would not offer this feature they would be called out-dated by most people here. If they adopt this technology it is an imitation ? Boeing also used many technologies first used by Airbus but they became standard. Same thing here.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 32):
What is the difference?

Besides a significant difference in age, the most significant difference is range. The A300 is wide-body but it is not long-haul. Meanwhile, a version of the 777 is the longest-ranged commercial airliner.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
I give you the widebody twin. Composites and wingtip fences were on passenger aircraft long before the A300.

Don't forget fly by wire in commercial airliners. Airbus pioneered that too. And Boeing used to call Airbus' aircraft plastic planes in the past for their (at that time) extensive use of composites.

But back to the topic. If I read the article correctly, this is slightly different than Boeing's approach, more like a dimmable window slide, or am I wrong? That's the point made in the article, that Airbus claims the maintenance is easier this way, because in the 787 the entire glass needs to be taken out if it needs to be replaced, and on the a350 you just replace the shutter.
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columba
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 20):
I'd say look for them on future improved versions of the A380.

Absolutely, in a few years Airbus will bring out an A380Enhanced that will offer many things that were introduced with the A350/787.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
agill
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 30):

Welcome to A-net! Without A vs B it wouldn't be half as exiting!

To be honnest I think it's quite sad.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Don't know about the L1011 (a product that came out 30 years ago) but the 787 is the first commercial aircraft to use it and Airbus is still following Boeing's lead.

Nope, Qantas use the technology in the 1st class lavs, where a window is fitted. Certinaly in the 747
, and qite likely to be seen in the A380 too.....

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 35):
From the looks of it, if a window is out of service, it reverts to full dimming, so sleepy-time shouldn't be a problem. What I wonder is, in the unfortunate event of an accident,

So the elecrticity runing through the window (or whatever it does !!!) has the effect of making the windows less 'tinted'? Seems pretty sensibe. I suppose in an accident, and if the blind were u/s it would not make too much of a difference as the passenger will still be able to see out the window.

I honestly do not know how 'restful' these windows will be, how much of the world will I actually be able to see from 45K? I dont think I will get too much sleep at all!


Brian.
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On

Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 27):
Boeing in no way invented electrochromic technology or darkening windows.

Boeing didn't invent the airplane either, not that it matters.

Did Boeing's requirement for dimable window shades spur the development of the technology for commercial passenger jets?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 32):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Are we seriously comparing the A300 and 777?

What is the difference?

A 777 is about 30% bigger, twice as heavy, twice the thrust, and almost three times the range.

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 33):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
I give you the widebody twin. Composites and wingtip fences were on passenger aircraft long before the A300.

Which and when? I don't know.

Edit : Other than business jets. They have long been at the forefront of technology.

I was thinking biz jets since we started with "passenger aircraft", not "commercial aircraft". If we exclude biz jets I think Airbus gets the wing fences award, but definitely not the composites (there is fiberglass going at least back to the 727 and I'm pretty sure Boeing wasn't first).

Tom.
 
FAEDC3
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:00 pm

With the luck I have, I bet that every time that I get to fly on one of this "future is now" a/c the dimming device will be broken as the plug on my headphones, and who knows the IFE system might freeze (as if it has not happened before), and I will end up wanting to kill myself of boredom....  Big grin
Sometimes the old faithful emergency card taped to the broked plastic shade is unbeatable...
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Are we seriously comparing the A300 and 777?

Ok, how about the A330, which flew first as well?

NS
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:36 am

How did this become about an A300 and 777 comparison? Particularly as about 20 years and an entirely different specification separate them.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 46):
How did this become about an A300 and 777 comparison?

It started with this:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
As Boeing is following Airbus' every time they build a widebody twin.

Which prompted this:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 23):
So which Airbus model was the 777 a copy of, exactly?

Which got us this:

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 30):
The A300!

So I plead guilty, I'm the one that originally hijacked it.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 45):
Ok, how about the A330, which flew first as well?

Much better point, although they're still not equivalent. Back to electrochromic windows though...have we figured out if it's actually an electric window with a manual shade (which I don't understand) or an electric shade (which makes some sense)?

Tom.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:51 am

Are you speaking generically, or to the ones on the A350?

It isn't a shade... the window itself darkens and eventually becomes fully opaque when electricity is applied. In an emergency, all the windows fail open so that you can clearly see out.

Its not dissimilar to modern self-dimming rearview mirrors.

NS
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus To Offer 787 Style Darkening Windows On A35

Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 48):
Are you speaking generically, or to the ones on the A350?

It isn't a shade... the window itself darkens and eventually becomes fully opaque when electricity is applied. In an emergency, all the windows fail open so that you can clearly see out.

On the 787 it's definitely the window itself that darkens. On the A350 it seems like it might be another layer separate from the window:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 38):
If I read the article correctly, this is slightly different than Boeing's approach, more like a dimmable window slide, or am I wrong? That's the point made in the article, that Airbus claims the maintenance is easier this way, because in the 787 the entire glass needs to be taken out if it needs to be replaced, and on the a350 you just replace the shutter.

Tom.

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