Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
ly204
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am

Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:49 pm

While the facts clearly indicate that commerical aircraft are one of the safest modes of transportation (and certainly much safer than driving in a car), I do wonder what measures airlines have taken to maintain subfleets of certain models with dubious safety records. Certain aircraft that come to mind (again, noting that statistically, these are all still relatively safe aircraft) include:

1. 737 Classics -- rudder controls leading to catastrophic failures
2. DC10s -- questionable designs of redundancy features (e.g. redundant hydraulic lines located almost right next to each other)
3. F100s -- poor performance in icy conditions
4. A300s -- structural issues with composite tails

While I know these planes have largely been flown safefly for thousands and thousands of cycles, these (and other) safety issues are well documented...it would be useful to better understand how airlines have maintained these aircraft in their fleets with relative safety.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting LY204 (Thread starter):
While I know these planes have largely been flown safefly for thousands and thousands of cycles, these (and other) safety issues are well documented...it would be useful to better understand how airlines have maintained these aircraft in their fleets with relative safety.

I think you'll find that, even with the "notorious" issues that you note, the safety record of these particular aircraft is still excellent. Any time there is a crash due to a design or maintenance flaw, the FAA/CAA (now EASA) issues an Airworthiness Directive to permanently resolve that particular issue. So, for example, you can't have a 737 Classic (under FAA or EASA registry) have the rudder hardover anymore because they've modified the aircraft to remove that failure mode.

Of course, an AD is just a piece of paper and it doesn't actually change anything about the aircraft by itself. We have always had, and always will have, operators that choose not to do what they ought to do with their aircraft. That is an unfortunate thing, but it's not something you can really blame on the aircraft. Every aircraft model can be made unsafe if you don't maintain and operate as you're supposed to.

Tom.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting LY204 (Thread starter):
4. A300s -- structural issues with composite tails

There's never been an A300 crash caused by design problems with the fin.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Springbok295
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:21 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:47 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
There's never been an A300 crash caused by design problems with the fin.

American Airlines in New York Nov 2001!
Springbok 295, the flight that never made it home, 28 November 1987, may they rest in peace.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5108
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting Springbok295 (Reply 3):

American Airlines in New York Nov 2001!

Wasn't a structural problem, the NTSB specifically ruled out the failure of the fin as a cause as it was far in excess of the certificated ultimate load. Other changes were recommended by the NTSB but a structural design change of the fin or rudder itself was not one of them.
 
ly204
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
Of course, an AD is just a piece of paper and it doesn't actually change anything about the aircraft by itself. We have always had, and always will have, operators that choose not to do what they ought to do with their aircraft. That is an unfortunate thing, but it's not something you can really blame on the aircraft. Every aircraft model can be made unsafe if you don't maintain and operate as you're supposed to.

My sentiments exactly...I wonder the extent to which airlines, for example, installed the modified rudder components on the
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:27 pm

Quoting Springbok295 (Reply 3):
American Airlines in New York Nov 2001!

...was initially caused by severe wake turbulences from a preceding 74, which brought the A300 out of control. While the pilot disparately tried to get it the airplane back under control, the vertical stab broke off. NTSB finally said the the pilot probably underestimated the sensitivity of the rudder control. Here's the final report ....

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041026.htm

Airbus now blames it on pilot training, while AA blames it on the too sensitive rudder.

from wikipedia:

Quote:
The NTSB determined that "because of its high sensitivity, the A300-600 rudder control system is susceptible to potentially hazardous rudder pedal inputs at higher speeds."[1]

Airbus charges that the crash was mostly American's fault, because the airline did not train its pilots properly about the characteristics of the rudder. Aircraft tail fins are designed to withstand full rudder deflection in one direction at maneuvering speed. They are not usually designed to withstand an abrupt shift in rudder from one direction to the other. Most American pilots believed that the tail fin could withstand any rudder movement at maneuvering speed. The NTSB also assigned a portion of the responsibility to American Airlines by indicating that their Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program tended to exaggerate the effects of wake turbulence on large aircraft. Therefore, pilots were being trained to react more aggressively than was necessary.[1]

Since the NTSB's report, American Airlines has modified its pilot training program.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:33 pm

I honestly think that an aircraft is boud to have a weak area that designers will have overlooked, or thought were exceptionally unlikely to happen. Indeed aircraft have quirks, say in Icy conditions, like the Fokker 100, ATR, etc Again the 727 and A320 had a few accidents as well, and these quirks are ironed out, and the aircraft goes on to be a success, the 757 had unexpected wake turbelance issues, the list goes on

Similarly I think the A380 the 787 and A350 will have problems too, although I would be amazed if they were on the scale of earlier models.

Statistics are just that. A chance. It does not mean your plane will or wont come faling from the sky. Youve just gotta hope for the best, thats all, regardless of weither you are on a 737/A320 or IL-18.

Brian.
 
ly204
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:55 pm

So what airlines in the western world have been lax at addressing these known flaws? I don't think, for example, that all US airlines, addressed the 737 rudder issue, for example.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:25 pm

How about Let-410?
Every time i check Aviation Safety web-site i see Let-410 accident. Over 80 hull-loses.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...320%&cat=%1&sorteer=datekey&page=1
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3673
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:58 pm

United Airlines flight 811's explosive decompression after take-off from HNL on 24 Feb 1989 caused by a poorly designed forward cargo door led to overhaul of the global 747-100 fleet (all airlines) because of several faults with the door's design.

10 March 1987 a Pan-Am 747-100 experienced pressurisation problems on take-off from LHR to JFK the flight returned to London after successively experiencing problems trying to climb beyond 20,000 feet. The front cargo door was again the problem.

Perhaps if they'd investigated the PA problem properly, the UA fatalities may not have happened two years later. And it was only due to the private investigation into the accident by the parents of one of the dead that the real problem with the R5 cargo door became known. The FAA, Boeing, Pan-Am et al had stopped investigating and were stonewalling the family who were determined to ensure that there son hadn't died in vain. They succeeded and the design of the R5 cargo door was overhauled and no other accidents occurred with it.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:04 pm

My favorite aircraft (757), I can't think of anything  Big grin . But stuff does happen. As far as airlines doing something about it, I look at it this way: could you imagine God forbid if something major came out about the CRJ or ERJ? These aircraft is usually the only type flown by most regionals (ASA, Freedom, etc.). If the FAA put out a directive could you imagine how costly that would be. Yes, I saw they need to take the dame things out of service when they can to correct the problem but how would they look at it.
What gets measured gets done.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10812
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:14 pm

I don't think there is such an example of a notorious aircraft in service these days, plenty of unsafe operators, but not aircraft. Formerly I would suggest early versions of the Comet and the Tu144 may have qualified before essential modifications were made, but if you actually look back through all the crashes for the aircraft examples you have mentioned, you will find that most are due to either human error or a lack of maintenance resulting in a malfunction which lead to the crash.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:29 pm

Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records?

Concorde.  Sad

If not for the Continental airlines DC10 that dropped the strip of titanium on the runway  Angry that caused them to crash, there has been no history of any crash before.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting LY204 (Reply 8):
So what airlines in the western world have been lax at addressing these known flaws? I don't think, for example, that all US airlines, addressed the 737 rudder issue, for example.

While not specifically disobeying air worthiness directives, there are cases of airlines getting hit with penalties due to improper maintenance including Jetsgo of Canada, Alaska Airlines, Valujet. There are probably others.

Jetsgo shortly before the end was under investigation for maintenance practices due to some incidents. The Canadian authorities likely would have handed out penalties to the airline had it not gone bankrupt and ceased operations.

Alaska Airlines in the wake of the crash of Alaska flight 261 was under scrutiny from the FAA becasue of improper maintenance procedures. Systematic problems were identified by the investigation in the FAA's oversight of maintenance programs, including inadequate staffing, its approval process of maintenance interval extensions, and the aircraft certification requirements

Valujet was shutdown because of safety deficiencies. Prior to the crash of flight 597, the airline was restricted from adding new planes and destinations because of their poor maintenance practices and excessively high number of safety related incdients. Valujet had ten times the number of emergency landings than other airlines in the year before they were grounded.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 6):
American Airlines in New York Nov 2001!

...was initially caused by severe wake turbulences from a preceding 74, which brought the A300 out of control.

It wasn't "severe wake turbulence". It was totally normal wake turbulence and the copilot reacted completely improperly (as he'd been documented to do in a previous case). It happens that the A300 rudder control design will allow the flight crew to put in enough rudder command to exceed the ultimate load of the rudder. They're not supposed to do that, obviously, but they can and, in this situation, did.

The pilot did screw up, and the rudder control system design allowed that screwup to result in departure of the vertical fin.

Whether that's a design flaw in the aircraft is somewhat debatable...the flight crew took the aircraft outside its design envelope, so it's not strictly the aircraft's fault. However, you can make a legitimate argument that it shouldn't be that easy to get outside the envelope for that particular case.

Tom.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 9):
How about Let-410?
Every time i check Aviation Safety web-site i see Let-410 accident. Over 80 hull-loses.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...age=1

Many Let-410s are operated by dodgy airlines in e.g. Africa, with minimum maintenance as "throw away" airplane. They are also often overloaded to make a few $$$ more revenue. All these accidents caused by bad maintenance or operational practices disturb the statistics to a disadvantage of the Let 410, unless each accident is clearly studied individualy. The same would applies to the AN-12 which is often used in similar conditions.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:53 am

The ATR doesn't particularly like ice either.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
peh
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 6):
from wikipedia:

You're not seriously quoting Wikipedia as a reputable source, are you? Give me a minute and I'll go into Wikipedia, delete what's there and say that the A300 was brought down as a result of alien aggression.

Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
the NTSB specifically ruled out the failure of the fin as a cause as it was far in excess of the certificated ultimate load

Totally agree. Boeing issued the same warning a week later. This was AA training procedures. If it wasn't they'd still be teaching pilots to use the vertical stabilizer under such conditions.
Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
Quoting Springbok295 (Reply 3):
American Airlines in New York Nov 2001!

Wasn't a structural problem, the NTSB specifically ruled out the failure of the fin as a cause as it was far in excess of the certificated ultimate load. Other changes were recommended by the NTSB but a structural design change of the fin or rudder itself was not one of them.

I seem to remember the particular rudder on this aircraft had a repair made to it near the attach points by Airbus, due to delamination of the composite rudder, before the aircraft was delivered to American Airlines. All A300 and A310 that had composite rudders were required to be checked per a FAA AD.  old 
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
beechnut
Posts: 960
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am

You want unsafe? Here's a couple:

Boeing 377 Stratocruiser: 56 built, 13 hull losses from 1951 to 1970

Avro Tudor (4 engine taildragger with RR Merlin engines): 38 built, forget the exact number of hull losses but I believe three were lost in the Atlantic, one was lost on a test flight (due to reversed controls), and one while landing with a load of rugby fans.

Concorde is no shining star, statistically, either.

Beech
 
cchan
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 8:54 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 9):
How about Let-410

and the Twin Otter seems to have a lot of losts as well

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
Many Let-410s are operated by dodgy airlines in e.g. Africa, with minimum maintenance as "throw away" airplane. They are also often overloaded to make a few $$$ more revenue. All these accidents caused by bad maintenance or operational practices disturb the statistics to a disadvantage of the Let 410, unless each accident is clearly studied individualy. The same would applies to the AN-12 which is often used in similar conditions.

Well, the thread just says aircraft with notorious safety records, doesn't ask for reason.
 
ly204
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:34 am

I know it comes down to dollars and cents, but some airlines seem to have a knack for choosing the less-safe model when presented with options. A few examples:

1. AA -- at one time, they were flying DC10s/MD11s, A300s, and F100s...three less-than-stellar safety records (while they were at the same time flying 757s and 767s...which are certainly safer craft)
2. US -- at one time, they were flying F28s, lots of DC9s, and lots of 737 classics

I know that people are going to say "as long as the planes are well maintained, there is no issue..."fair enough, but one has to admit that AA may have been better off with L10s, more 767s, and 737s (earlier on) than the choices they had selected...
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:18 am

As for the AA incident: As stated the wake turbulence was not severe, just that of a normal heavy 744 departure. While the pilot did not adhere to SOPs, a safety design measure should have been in place to prevent the incident from occuring in the first place, such as a governor that limits the amount of rudder torque, as seen in cruse, at higher airspeeds.

On the other side of the coin, with safety records, the 777 has one an exceptional one, in its 12 years of service, with zero hull losses, and no major accidents... only compressor stalls (which has little to do with the airframe).
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:19 am

In my opinion, every civilian aircraft out there should be designed to allow full rudder inputs at maneuvering speed, and measures in place for the plane not to not allow excessive rudder at higher speeds. Airbus should have known when they designed the plane that an accident like this would eventually happen. You can't blame solely AA for that accident.
Live your dream.
 
scrumpy492003
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:01 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:19 am

Concorde only had ONE accident!!

I wasn't aware of any Twin Otters lost due to bad construction or design!!
Kenn Borek operates them all over the world including BOTH Poles.

DH Comet!!
One of the problems with aircraft manufacturers is that they are still liable for their product even after many years of excellent service. Show me a car manufacturer that is liable legally for the same! It doesn't matter about how well the product is maintained etc. they are still liable, and even now are liable for not building Bomb proof products!!

Sometimes the general public and lawyers can smell money, thus making anything appear unsafe!!

 twocents 

Peter  dollarsign 
peter b95 c-ghfu
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Scrumpy492003 (Reply 25):
Concorde only had ONE accident!!

...and took out exactly half the fleet of flying concordes.

Quoting Scrumpy492003 (Reply 25):
DH Comet!!

Two DH Comets went down within the first few years due to a catastrophic design flaw that caused cracking wear the wings connected to the fuselage, causing explosive decompression. Your arguments of "many years of excellent service" and "how well the product is maintained" don't apply to this airplane.
Live your dream.
 
PYP757
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:57 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting Scrumpy492003 (Reply 25):
Concorde only had ONE accident!!

Only one accident, but for a total of just about 80,000 flights, that makes it nearly 100 times more dangerous than a modern airliner! Not to mention that this was an accident waiting to happen - there were other major incidents with the concorde before the Paris crash, some also involving tyres bursting during take off.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 17):
The ATR doesn't particularly like ice either.

That was solved YEARS ago.

Quoting LY204 (Reply 22):
1. AA -- at one time, they were flying DC10s/MD11s, A300s, and F100s...three less-than-stellar safety records (while they were at the same time flying 757s and 767s...which are certainly safer craft)

The A300 has a stellar safety record.

NS
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9884
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13):
If not for the Continental airlines DC10 that dropped the strip of titanium on the runway Sad

There is no proof of that it came from a CO D10. There was no serial number on the piece. It could have been from any aircraft. There was a huge debate on the issue some time ago.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
That was solved YEARS ago.

And yet AA has yet to return their ATR's to any environment where icing would be possible.
Live your dream.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting LY204 (Reply 8):
So what airlines in the western world have been lax at addressing these known flaws? I don't think, for example, that all US airlines, addressed the 737 rudder issue

Once the NTSB singled out the rudder issue in '98, they gave US airlines a ten year window to complete all the modifications needed to fix the design. They have to address it if they want to continue flying, it's not an option. As for the aircraft that have not been fixed yet, pilot training has addressed how recover in the event the hydraulic pump jams.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 23):
On the other side of the coin, with safety records, the 777 has one an exceptional one,

 checkmark  Agreed. The 777's safety record is essentially flawless.

Quoting LY204 (Reply 22):
I know that people are going to say "as long as the planes are well maintained, there is no issue..."fair enough, but one has to admit that AA may have been better off with L10s, more 767s, and 737s (earlier on) than the choices they had selected...

Come on, you don't really believe that, do you? For the record, AA never had a fatal F100 accident, the A300 is largely if not mostly in part to pilot error, and the incorrect maintenance practices performed on AA 191's engines probably would have been done on a Tristar as well. The 767 does not have a stellar safety record, and the MD-80 is far superior in safety than early 737's.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 26):
Two DH Comets went down within the first few years due to a catastrophic design flaw that caused cracking wear the wings connected to the fuselage, causing explosive decompression. Your arguments of "many years of excellent service" and "how well the product is maintained" don't apply to this airplane.

 checkmark  Plus two other accidents in the first two years. One a result of the thin sheet metal used, leading to metal fatigue in the wing spar from turbulence.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
There is no proof of that it came from a CO D10. There was no serial number on the piece. It could have been from any aircraft.

It was a bogus part, not produced by MDC or originally part of the aircraft. But it did fit onto the engine like a piece on a puzzle when identified. It is not a conspiracy theory.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
The A300 has a stellar safety record.

Free of 737 like design flaws? Yes. Stellar safety record? Not by a long shot.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
mop357
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 7):
Similarly I think the A380 the 787 and A350 will have problems too, although I would be amazed if they were on the scale of earlier models.

I disagree, the B777, A340, and A 330 have been around for a while and none have had any serious problems. Aviation is getting better and better with each new design.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13):
If not for the Continental airlines DC10 that dropped the strip of titanium on the runway that caused them to crash, there has been no history of any crash before.

I agree, the Concorde crashed because of the DC 10. The Concorde shouldn't be placed on any bad design list. The crash had nothing to do with any design. I think it could have happen to any airplane with a big slab of metal on the runway.

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 20):
Concorde is no shining star, statistically, either.

There were very few Concorde ever built so of course one incident would ruin the statistics. Yes the Concorde crashed but it wasn't a design flaw. In my opinion that statistic should have an asterisk beside it because its unfair to blame it on the Concorde. I also don't think its unfair to put the 9/11 crashes into the statics of the 757 and 767s.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 822
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 26):
...and took out exactly half the fleet of flying concordes

wasn't there 14 concordes? how did it take out half the fleet.

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
I disagree, the B777, A340, and A 330 have been around for a while and none have had any serious problems. Aviation is getting better and better with each new design.

also Not that it was a design failure but the A340 does have a hull loss where the others don't.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 34):
wasn't there 14 concordes? how did it take out half the fleet.

I believe at the time of the crash, two were in service, one with BA and one with AF (the one that crashed).
Live your dream.
 
User avatar
jetmech
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
I think it could have happen to any airplane with a big slab of metal on the runway.

I was a thin strip of metal, not a big slab!

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 822
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 35):
I believe at the time of the crash, two were in service, one with BA and one with AF (the one that crashed).

really, I found a site that suggests that there was atleast two at british airways alone. I am pretty sure there were more than just two operating at that time.

here's the site if you want it: http://www.concordesst.com/216.html
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 24):
In my opinion, every civilian aircraft out there should be designed to allow full rudder inputs at maneuvering speed, and measures in place for the plane not to not allow excessive rudder at higher speeds. Airbus should have known when they designed the plane that an accident like this would eventually happen. You can't blame solely AA for that accident.

 checkmark  I agree completely. If one had access to the ACARS reports and incident/safety reports that the airlines investigate, you would be quite surprised at just how many "minor" pilot errors there are- altitude busts, speed and course deviations, exceeding flap speed limits, altitude busts due to impropper altimeter settings and transition altitude discrepencies, etc. Believe me, it happens a lot more than you think. Even if it was only a remote possibility (in which it was- this was the only incident with the A300), an initial "fail-safe" device should have been installed, because "minor" pilot error still happens, and it still happens a lot.
 
skyguyB727
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:45 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
Valujet was shutdown because of safety deficiencies. Prior to the crash of flight 597, the airline was restricted from adding new planes and destinations because of their poor maintenance practices and excessively high number of safety related incdients. Valujet had ten times the number of emergency landings than other airlines in the year before they were grounded.

And today ValuJet is known as AirTran.
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 37):
really, I found a site that suggests that there was atleast two at british airways alone. I am pretty sure there were more than just two operating at that time.

You might be right, I was just going off of memory. Either way all I was trying to say was that it's not logical to argue that the concorde had any kind of decent safety record considering one crashed out of only a handful at the most that saw regular service.
Live your dream.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Peh (Reply 18):

You're not seriously quoting Wikipedia as a reputable source, are you? Give me a minute and I'll go into Wikipedia, delete what's there and say that the A300 was brought down as a result of alien aggression.

My quote from Wikipedia was actually a summary of what is written in the NTSB press release. It was also properly linked to that source. And yes, IF based on proper sources Wikipedia CAN be a reliables source. I am quite a critic of Wikipedia content by myself but in this case there was no reason not post it. The rule is not: some articles bad --> all articles bad.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
the Concorde crashed because of the DC 10. The Concorde shouldn't be placed on any bad design list. The crash had nothing to do with any design. I think it could have happen to any airplane with a big slab of metal on the runway.

Could not be further from the truth. Because of it's design, the Concorde was the only aircraft that was vulnerable to this type of accident. Other aircraft have run over debris on take-off roll and it has not brought the plane down. The Concorde was grounded for a year for a reason. Your typical twin jet can complete take-off and land safely with half of its available thrust, the Concorde could not.

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
I also don't think its unfair to put the 9/11 crashes into the statics of the 757 and 767s.

The Concorde was not hijacked and flown into a building.

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 35):
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 34):
wasn't there 14 concordes? how did it take out half the fleet.

I believe at the time of the crash, two were in service, one with BA and one with AF (the one that crashed).

Twelve Concordes were in service until 2003, thirteen at the time of the accident. One from AF was scrapped years earlier.

[Edited 2007-10-21 23:37:57]

[Edited 2007-10-21 23:39:09]
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9884
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
I agree, the Concorde crashed because of the DC 10.

No it was not. See here......

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
There is no proof of that it came from a CO D10. There was no serial number on the piece. It could have been from any aircraft. There was a huge debate on the issue some time ago.

And here....

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 32):
It was a bogus part, not produced by MDC or originally part of the aircraft. But it did fit onto the engine like a piece on a puzzle when identified.

 checkmark  It could have came off of any plane that had the same engines as the CO D10.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 38):
one had access to the ACARS reports and incident/safety reports that the airlines investigate, you would be quite surprised at just how many "minor" pilot errors there are- altitude busts, speed and course deviations, exceeding flap speed limits, altitude busts due to impropper altimeter settings and transition altitude discrepencies, etc. Believe me, it happens a lot more than you think. Even if it was only a remote possibility (in which it was- this was the only incident with the A300), an initial "fail-safe" device should have been installed, because "minor" pilot error still happens, and it still happens a lot.

What you're referring to is not contained in ACARS reports. I challenge you to provide justification/evidence/substantiation for your statement "Believe me, it happens a lot more than you think. "
Fly fast, live slow
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 44):
What you're referring to is not contained in ACARS reports. I challenge you to provide justification/evidence/substantiation for your statement "Believe me, it happens a lot more than you think. "

No it is not in ACARS, but FSAP I would be more than happy to provide evidence, however, it is sensitive, "internal" material. My point was more of a personal surprise at how common "abnormal" procedures due to discrepencies occur.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 45):
No it is not in ACARS, but FSAP I would be more than happy to provide evidence, however, it is sensitive, "internal" material. My point was more of a personal surprise at how common "abnormal" procedures due to discrepencies occur

Well, first of all, altitude busts aren't part of any "reporting", same thing with "transition level/altitude" problems, speed and course deviations also. Sure all glass cockpit airplanes snitch...but I guess I don't see where you're going????
Fly fast, live slow
 
N1120A
Posts: 26656
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting LY204 (Reply 8):
I don't think, for example, that all US airlines, addressed the 737 rudder issue, for example.

They all have, either through physical fixes or pilot training.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
There is no proof of that it came from a CO D10.

Actually, there is lots of proof that it came from a CO DC10
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 26):
Two DH Comets went down within the first few years due to a catastrophic design flaw that caused cracking wear the wings connected to the fuselage, causing explosive decompression. Your arguments of "many years of excellent service" and "how well the product is maintained" don't apply to this airplane.

I believe the decompression was caused by fuselage cracks radiating out from the window apertures, nothing to do with the wing/fuselage joint. I'm sure this resulted in a different window shape on the later Comets. It has to be said though, that little if nothing was known about designing pressurised passenger cabins at this time; and that the modified design still flies in the form of the Nimrod to this day.

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13):
If not for the Continental airlines DC10 that dropped the strip of titanium on the runway that caused them to crash, there has been no history of any crash before.

I agree, the Concorde crashed because of the DC 10. The Concorde shouldn't be placed on any bad design list. The crash had nothing to do with any design. I think it could have happen to any airplane with a big slab of metal on the runway.

Once again, Concorde was a pioneer; its design predated the 747, and many features of its design that were considered acceptable in the 1960's would be a big no today. Its performance was such, that all other planes with a similar performance have ejector seats.

[quote=Ward86IND,reply=35]Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 34):
wasn't there 14 concordes? how did it take out half the fleet.

I believe at the time of the crash, two were in service, one with BA and one with AF (the one that crashed).[/quote


BA were using all their fleet on a regular basis until the crash.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Models With Notorious Safety Records

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 33):
I agree, the Concorde crashed because of the DC 10. The Concorde shouldn't be placed on any bad design list. The crash had nothing to do with any design.

It didn't crash because of the DC10, it burst a tire because of the DC10. Tire burst is a design condition that any commercial airliner is supposed to tolerate. It crashed because the design of the Concorde didn't accept tire bursts well.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 38):
Even if it was only a remote possibility (in which it was- this was the only incident with the A300), an initial "fail-safe" device should have been installed, because "minor" pilot error still happens, and it still happens a lot.

And the aviation gods said, "Let there be fly-by-wire and envelope protection." And lo, it was good...well, better, but came with its own problems.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 44):
What you're referring to is not contained in ACARS reports. I challenge you to provide justification/evidence/substantiation for your statement "Believe me, it happens a lot more than you think. "

I've seen plenty of DFDR data. It certainly happens more than I thought it did before I started looking at the data.

Tom.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos