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nijltje
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Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:56 am

Just announced in a Belgium newspaper; after a meeting with Naresh Goyal and Belgium prime minister Guy Verhostadt.
Naresh Goyal announced to reach 2 million passengers in 2008 travelling via the BRU hub, this is the double of the initial one million.
Link in Dutch
http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelId=DMF22102007_028
 
FCKC
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:44 pm

Will not be surprised to learn an A380 order from Jet aw in the very short future.
 
SanAntoneTahr
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:15 am

There are two Jet Airways B738 here at San Antonio Aerospace. One flew in from Canada and the other from Boeing Field.
Big version: Width: 1250 Height: 507 File size: 385kb
 
nijltje
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:45 am

 Smile love to see A380 landing in BRU, do you think this is a possibility for JET?
 
mk777
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:01 pm

Besides JFK, EWR and YYZ, what will be 9W's newest addition in the N. American region???? My bet would be on LAX, ORD, SFO, IAH or IAD. I am sure ultimately all these airports will have a scheduled 9W service.

I guess they are waiting for more 77W and A332 to come in!!!!
come fly with me
 
dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:49 pm

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 4):
Besides JFK, EWR and YYZ, what will be 9W's newest addition in the N. American region???? My bet would be on LAX, ORD, SFO, IAH or IAD. I am sure ultimately all these airports will have a scheduled 9W service.

I guess they are waiting for more 77W and A332 to come in!!!!

I think that Jet's definite plans include IAD and then ORD.....with other North American cities to be determined. Its unclear if LAX and SFO will be served via BRU or via the Pacific.
 
Nimish
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:56 pm

A rumor floating on http://www.Airliners-india.net has IAH as the next possible destination. There's also a post on SFO's web site (http://www.flysfo.com/web/page/about/jobs/jobs/jobslist2.jsp?type=51) where 9W is hiring for 5 positions - which might point to an SFO start.
Incredible India!
 
15a
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:32 am

2 Milllion seems way too high..thats the equivalent of 5500 pax every day..
because only 20 77W (10 flights each way between India and North America) with 80% LF and 20% pax originating ex Bru add up to that many...and we know 9W does not have those many aircraft on order...

What to me seems more likely is 7-8 daily flights from India (My Guess - DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, ATQ, AMD Daily and CCU, HYD, COK adding up to 14 weekly flights) going on to 8 destinations in North America (My guess - EWR, JFK, YYZ, ORD, LAX, SFO, IAH, YVR) with 4 of these routes being 77W and 4 balance being A332

That with the assumption of 80% load factors and 20% pax originating in Brussels (on either route - to US and to India) leads to about 4000 pax per day or 1.5 Mn in an year.

Of course if they make all routes with 77W or move some of the routes to VLAs, then by 2009/2010 they could hit 2 Mn or so.

and to whether SFO will be served by east or west coast, it might well be both. Bom-PVG-SFO is attractive stand alone while the Brussels hub allows multi city feeds.
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:40 am

Yesterday we had the first day with 6 flights leaving BRU to EWR, JFK, YYZ, BOM, DEL and MAA. So 4 77Ws and 4 A332s.
Their state-of-the-art lounge was also launched last week.
Let's wait now for the next route (should be launched by feb.2008). ATQ, AMD, BLR ? IAD, ORD, LAX ?


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
brubiac
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 8):
Yesterday we had the first day with 6 flights leaving BRU to EWR, JFK, YYZ, BOM, DEL and MAA. So 4 77Ws and 4 A332s

It where only 4 flights iso 6.
2 flights where cancelled.

9W225 A330
9W227 77W
9W228 77W
9W230 77W

The only day with 6 flights will be on Saturdays. As of 15 Decembre, it will be 6 daily flights
BRU a small airport in a big world.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:12 pm

Does Brussels Airlines codeshare on any of these routes? You can't even book BRU/India on their website.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Aisak
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Does Brussels Airlines codeshare on any of these routes?

Can 5th freedom routes be codeshared? Because I can't recall of any of them.... Anyway, as you point out India routes could be available, but i think none of SN routes have a 9W codeshare on them. They might enter codesharing in the future...
 
jacobin777
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:23 pm

Fellow A.netter Behramjee stated 9W will commence ORD next year....I would say it will be non-DEL(such as BOM)-BRU-ORD.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
mk777
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I would say it will be non-DEL(such as BOM)-BRU-ORD.....

If i recall from another thread (behramjee), this flight will operate AMD-BRU-ORD  Smile
come fly with me
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Aisak (Reply 11):
Can 5th freedom routes be codeshared?

I don't see why not unless one of the involved countries prohibits it

Quoting Aisak (Reply 11):
They might enter codesharing in the future...

I think without a SN codeshare the whole BRU hub is going to tank
I don't take responsibility at all
 
dutchjet
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
I think without a SN codeshare the whole BRU hub is going to tank

No, it wont......Jet is focused on moving passengers between various US cities and various Indian cities, with passengers changing aircraft at BRU for easy connections. Transporting pax between BRU and the US and BRU and India are secondary goals. While a SN codeshare on certain routes would be advantageous, its not required to make the Jet-BRU operation a success.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
I think without a SN codeshare the whole BRU hub is going to tank

= I do not agree with this assesment. 9W is not utilizing BRU to get feed in from SN. It is using it as a scissor hub for its India-US operations. Loads, projections, and marketing is mostly on India-US ... not US-BRU or BRU-India.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 13):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I would say it will be non-DEL(such as BOM)-BRU-ORD.....

If i recall from another thread (behramjee), this flight will operate AMD-BRU-ORD  Smile

...thanks....at least I got part of it correct... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 16):
It is using it as a scissor hub for its India-US operations.

Which will consistently be overflown as US and Indian carriers get more long range aircraft.... Hubs do not work without local traffic, and nonstops are preferred to onestops so I don't see any advantage to NYC-BRU-BOM, for instance, when there are three daily nonstops. Adding a one stop puts you in direct competition with everyone that offers service between the origin and destination

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
No, it wont......

Has a "scissor hub" such as this, with the possible exception of NRT, ever worked?
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buck3y3nut
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):

I saw on Orbitz when I was shopping for a airfare to India. They had me going to BRU on AA from ORD and then it was a SN flight number from BRU to DEL but it said operated by Jet Airways. So I guess it is being code-shared. I tried to find it again but was unable to. I tried my best to find the exact flight number for SN.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 11):
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Which will consistently be overflown as US and Indian carriers get more long range aircraft.... Hubs do not work without local traffic, and nonstops are preferred to onestops so I don't see any advantage to NYC-BRU-BOM, for instance, when there are three daily nonstops. Adding a one stop puts you in direct competition with everyone that offers service between the origin and destination

Nonstops will be preferred to onestops, everything else being equal, which is not the case usually. On BOM-JFK route, AI's nonstop has a lower load factor than Jet's onestop as AI is an inferior product due to its poor service. Jet has a better product/service than Delta's nonstop.

You do save about four hours each way by taking AI or Delta nonstop over Jet. Doing some mock searches on Expedia I find no evidence of any significant premium for nonstops over onestops.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 20):
On BOM-JFK route, AI's nonstop has a lower load factor than Jet's onestop as AI is an inferior product due to its poor service. Jet has a better product/service than Delta's nonstop.

I don't think service has anything to do with it, but if you are going to go for service, why bother with 9W? Why not take EK over DXB to one of their many Indian destinations?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
don't think service has anything to do with it, but if you are going to go for service, why bother with 9W? Why not take EK over DXB to one of their many Indian destinations?

From what I have heard, Jet's product, and service is better than that of EK. Furthermore, for India based passengers FFP will also play a role in the decision.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Which will consistently be overflown as US and Indian carriers get more long range aircraft.... Hubs do not work without local traffic, and nonstops are preferred to onestops so I don't see any advantage to NYC-BRU-BOM, for instance, when there are three daily nonstops. Adding a one stop puts you in direct competition with everyone that offers service between the origin and destination

= Again, I will have to disagree with you. The benefits of nonstops are extremely overrated especially in a fragmented market with diversified economic demand. 9W are not idiots to have replaced out their LR orders. Nonstops due serve a niche - for everyone else, price and product combined with relative timings are they key to a buying decision.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 20):
Doing some mock searches on Expedia I find no evidence of any significant premium for nonstops over onestops.

= Yes.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
I don't think service has anything to do with it, but if you are going to go for service, why bother with 9W? Why not take EK over DXB to one of their many Indian destinations?

= Having flown both airlines extensively, I can guarantee you that 9W is MILES and MILES ahead of EK in EVERY class of service. If you had to fly a ME carrier, EY and QR are MILES ahead of EK on the India-US routing.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 22):
From what I have heard, Jet's product, and service is better than that of EK. Furthermore, for India based passengers FFP will also play a role in the decision.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 23):
I will have to disagree with you. The benefits of nonstops are extremely overrated especially in a fragmented

So what's the value of connecting in BRU?

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 23):
If you had to fly a ME carrier, EY and QR are MILES ahead of EK on the India-US routing.

Like I said I don't put a lot of weight on service, but EY and QR can get you to many cities in India as well via their respective hubs.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
So what's the value of connecting in BRU?

It provides a scissor hub--with three daily flights from Indian cities to three NA cities, Jet is able to offer 9 city pairs. In due course, with flights from 7 points in India to 7 points in NA, Jet would be able to offer 49 city pairs.

Any other European city could work too, and AI is following Jet's lead by looking at an European scissor hub--Vienna or Munich--for onestop flights to NA.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 25):
It provides a scissor hub--with three daily flights from Indian cities to three NA cities, Jet is able to offer 9 city pairs. In due course, with flights from 7 points in India to 7 points in NA, Jet would be able to offer 49 city pairs.

Any other European city could work too, and AI is following Jet's lead by looking at an European scissor hub--Vienna or Munich--for onestop flights to NA.

= I could not have said it better. To add, BRU won out because its a massively underutilized efficient airport in Europe where 9W could get lots of concessions ... while providing a boost to the local economy.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
787kq
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:08 am

Jet's plan is brilliant, but it get even better when the other cities, the ones that don't have nonstops between the US and India, are on board. Jet's reputation for good service willl be a big factor in this success.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 25):
It provides a scissor hub--with three daily flights from Indian cities to three NA cities,

A "scissor hub" in and of itself is not a benefit. That brings us back to square one. A hub cannot work without the local market, and the more it is overflown the more irrelevant it becomes.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Nimish
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
A hub cannot work without the local market, and the more it is overflown the more irrelevant it becomes.

Given that 9W is not even focussed on the local market, I believe the plan is to make this hub work without the local market. Given there's sufficient demand on the India-US sectors, I think it can be made to work without the local market (which in itself is already served by a number of US carriers offering USA-BRU services).
Incredible India!
 
karan69
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 29):
Given that 9W is not even focussed on the local market, I believe the plan is to make this hub work without the local market.

 checkmark 

Seems the superior facilities that 9W is investing is/will pay off well for it, atleast now it seems that their scissors hub strategy outside India is working,

And with their expected order for VLAs i guess they will just be able to fill up 95% LFs they are currently experiencing on the NYC routes.

Karan
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 29):
I believe the plan is to make this hub work without the local market.

Which *I'm* saying won't work because they'll be overflown more and more and adding the one stop puts them into direct competition with everyone that serves both North America and India, which is just about every major carrier between North America and India. What does the extra stop in BRU do to increase revenue or reduce cost that couldn't be done in DEL or BOM?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Scorpio
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 29):
Given that 9W is not even focussed on the local market, I believe the plan is to make this hub work without the local market.

Wouldn't be too sure of that. Latest rumor here is that 9W has made an offer to buy SN...
 
Nimish
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 32):
Wouldn't be too sure of that. Latest rumor here is that 9W has made an offer to buy SN...

I was just quoting what I've read here about 9W's *current* plans for BRU. I'm sure they'll change their strategy once they stabilize the India-USA sectors and the scissors hub.

That being said buying SN would be great news for 9W, as they can then leverage the infrastructure (Pilots, MX team and bases, slots etc.) and feed their USA and India network via their hub at BRU.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Which *I'm* saying won't work because they'll be overflown more and more and adding the one stop puts them into direct competition with everyone that serves both North America and India, which is just about every major carrier between North America and India. What does the extra stop in BRU do to increase revenue or reduce cost that couldn't be done in DEL or BOM?

This point has been discussed numerous times, and the bottom line is that BRU allows 9W to offer one stop service between 6-8 stations in India and 6-8 stations in North America - leading to around 36 to 64 one-stop connections possible via the scissors hub. Effective competition would need 36 to 64 non-stops as well.

However we're likely to see only 4-6 non-stops in total on India-North America - (currently only BOM-EWR, BOM-JFK, DEL-ORD, DEL-EWR have non-stops in play, and we're likely to see DEL-JFK, BLR-SFO in the next 6 months).

So 9W's hub strategy will work well for the 30-58 "other connections" which don't have non-stop competition. For the 6 sectors with non-stop connection, 9W will have a tougher sell.
Incredible India!
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
A "scissor hub" in and of itself is not a benefit. That brings us back to square one. A hub cannot work without the local market, and the more it is overflown the more irrelevant it becomes.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Which *I'm* saying won't work because they'll be overflown more and more and adding the one stop puts them into direct competition with everyone that serves both North America and India, which is just about every major carrier between North America and India. What does the extra stop in BRU do to increase revenue or reduce cost that couldn't be done in DEL or BOM?

= I think you have articulated your points several times over. Time will tell if their BRU strategy will work or not. Unless its an exclusive business focussed niche market (LON-NYC, PAR-NYC, LON-HKG, BOM-NRT), price and reputation will pay a key role and the importance of nonstop will be highly exaggerated. As Nimish points out, 9W might have a tougher sell on say BOM-NYC, but it will make good money on each of the other segments it wants to embark on,

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
LurveBus
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Which *I'm* saying won't work because they'll be overflown more and more and adding the one stop puts them into direct competition with everyone that serves both North America and India, which is just about every major carrier between North America and India. What does the extra stop in BRU do to increase revenue or reduce cost that couldn't be done in DEL or BOM?

Infrastructure. Jet Airways wouldn't bother with a scissors hub in BRU if they thought for one moment that they could offer multiple connections to other Indian cities from BOM and/or DEL. Transiting in those airports is not a very nice experience. Jet Airways is trying to sell a premium product, something that is difficult to do if you're travelling from JFK to CCU while having to transit in BOM or DEL. In a decade, when Indian airports become more transit-friendly, then perhaps Jet could start focusing on an international hub within India, but until then, the BRU hub is a great alternative.

As for non-stops, there's only so much that non-stops can do. Sure, there's a market for non-stop JFK-BOM, but what about JFK-CCU or JFK-AMD? What about ORD-HYD and YYZ-BLR? India is booming, and there's significant demand for business travel to practically every major city.

Let's look at Jet's competitors at the India-US market, shall we?

Local Competition: AI's nonstops aren't doing very well. That's a given. Granted, it could be that AI just sucks at marketing, but a non-stop flight between India's largest and most cosmopolitan city and New York should theoretically be profitable by itself. But it's not, at least for AI. Jet Airways' load factors, despite the additional stop, are actually better. Jet may not have a nonstop to JFK or EWR, but the main premise of their business model is that there's a whole world outside of JFK/EWR-BOM/DEL.

North American Carriers: Any North American airline flying to India, like DL and AC, just flies passengers from a few cities in India to their hubs. While there is connectivity to other North American cities from these hubs, let's face it, doing an international to domestic connection in the US is such a hassle. On the other side, only a handful of cities like BOM and DEL benefit from the service, and transiting in those airports is no holiday, either. Jet offers one-stop service between unlikely city pairs like ORD-BLR which doesn't warrant a nonstop, but when put through a scissors hub, becomes viable. AC is not going to serve YVR-CCU ever, but such a routing with widebody service is possible with a scissors hub.

Middle Easter Carriers: EK offers the seamless connectivity and the flights to a lot of secondary Indian cities. The only problem, though, is that they only fly to New York, Houston, and three times weekly to Toronto. EK is filling it's planes to India with O/D to Dubai and the rest go to Europe. Jet Airways competes with EK and EY by offering better hardware, and more direct flights to different cities.

European Airlines: There is a reason why BA axed its service to MEL and sent the freed 744s to India. O/D traffic between the UK and India Aside, BA, AF, KL, and LH have all served the India-US market well in the absence of a strong AI. Jet is going to compete with these carriers by making transit in BRU simpler than in LHR, CDG, AMS, or FRA. Shorter layovers (2 hours or so) in a dedicated airport make the routings more attractive.

East Asian Airlines: SQ has been able to attract India-US traffic even with convoluted routings like DEL-SIN-HKG-SFO because of their product alone. Of course, it helps that SQ now has nonstops to LAX and EWR. CX, on the other hand, has wanted to do the same thing, but they're restricted when it comes to rights. Jet is going to compete with SQ head on when it comes to product, and when it comes to frequency and connections, Jet will have the upper hand.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:05 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
What does the extra stop in BRU do to increase revenue or reduce cost that couldn't be done in DEL or BOM?



Quoting LurveBus (Reply 35):
Infrastructure. Jet Airways wouldn't bother with a scissors hub in BRU if they thought for one moment that they could offer multiple connections to other Indian cities from BOM and/or DEL. Transiting in those airports is not a very nice experience. Jet Airways is trying to sell a premium product, something that is difficult to do if you're travelling from JFK to CCU while having to transit in BOM or DEL. In a decade, when Indian airports become more transit-friendly, then perhaps Jet could start focusing on an international hub within India, but until then, the BRU hub is a great alternative.

As for non-stops, there's only so much that non-stops can do. Sure, there's a market for non-stop JFK-BOM, but what about JFK-CCU or JFK-AMD? What about ORD-HYD and YYZ-BLR? India is booming, and there's significant demand for business travel to practically every major city.

Thank you so much for your exhaustive post. I hope it answers MaverickM11's question.

BTW, Delhi will become a world class airport by 2010--CATIII, A380 ready, integrated terminal(domestic and international) with 75 aerobridges and a capacity to handle 27 million passengers. I think that will present an Indian carrier an opportunity to offer nonstops to NA, Europe, and Asia from Delhi with hassle free connections from other Indian cities. Besides, from Delhi one could use 773ER to many points in NA and not need 772LR. I hope AI will look into it.
 
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bwest
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 35):
...


Great post, very clear and comprehensible.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 32):
Latest rumor here is that 9W has made an offer to buy SN...

I suppose this wouldn't be too bad for SN. I think we would see the disappearance of the B-flex & B-light concept, as I don't think this concept fits into 9W 's strategy.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:19 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 34):
Time will tell if their BRU strategy will work or not.

That's for sure and....

Quoting Bwest (Reply 37):
I suppose this wouldn't be too bad for SN. I think we would see the disappearance of the B-flex & B-light concept, as I don't think this concept fits into 9W 's strategy.

...if this happens it will be much better.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 35):
Jet Airways wouldn't bother with a scissors hub in BRU if they thought for one moment that they could offer multiple connections to other Indian cities from BOM and/or DEL.

The problem is that nice "infrastructure" is worth a lot less the instant that BOM or DEL (or some other connecting point with a nice terminal and schedule of which there are many already) is able to deliver the same ease of connection.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 35):
Jet offers one-stop service between unlikely city pairs like ORD-BLR which doesn't warrant a nonstop, but when put through a scissors hub, becomes viable.

If India continues its impressive growth, those secondary and tertiary city pairs become more and more likely to support a nonstop every day. Aircraft capability aside, no one would have believed a nonstop between SFO/BLR would even be seriously entertained a decade ago.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 35):
The only problem, though, is that they only fly to New York, Houston, and three times weekly to Toronto.

That list is going to grow as fast if not faster than 9W's North American offering, plus it seems 9W is not going to include LAX in its BRU complex.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4323
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
The problem is that nice "infrastructure" is worth a lot less the instant that BOM or DEL (or some other connecting point with a nice terminal and schedule of which there are many already) is able to deliver the same ease of connection.

= At the current state, I do not think BOM and DEL can be associated with the word "instant". Improvements have been made, but there is a long way to go.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
If India continues its impressive growth, those secondary and tertiary city pairs become more and more likely to support a nonstop every day. Aircraft capability aside, no one would have believed a nonstop between SFO/BLR would even be seriously entertained a decade ago.

= True. But, this is India circa 2007 and not 2017. I think 9W anticipates India's growth and will modify its business model accordingly. There is a reason those 787s are part of their fleet strategy.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
That list is going to grow as fast if not faster than 9W's North American offering, plus it seems 9W is not going to include LAX in its BRU complex.

= Perhaps. However, I think many non-UAE residing Indians or Americans would prefer or at the very least be indifferent on 9W over EK. India-USA market is not the same as Australia-Europe market for ME connections.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 35):
European Airlines: There is a reason why BA axed its service to MEL and sent the freed 744s to India. O/D traffic between the UK and India Aside, BA, AF, KL, and LH have all served the India-US market well in the absence of a strong AI. Jet is going to compete with these carriers by making transit in BRU simpler than in LHR, CDG, AMS, or FRA. Shorter layovers (2 hours or so) in a dedicated airport make the routings more attractive.

= I personally think the biggest losers would be Euro carriers and their 1 stop flights. Good for both Indian and American consumers who have had to deal with poor service and awful hubs (CDG/LHR).

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
LurveBus
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:21 pm

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
The problem is that nice "infrastructure" is worth a lot less the instant that BOM or DEL (or some other connecting point with a nice terminal and schedule of which there are many already) is able to deliver the same ease of connection.

Look at NWA in NRT. That hub is not going to go away anytime soon, despite the entry of the 787.

That, and there's one teeny thing. International to international connections will always be easier than international to domestic connections. People find it easy to transit in SIN, HKG, DXB, NRT, and now, BRU, because they just get off their plane, pass minimal security, and get on their next plane. For hubs like JFK, ATL, MSP, CDG, AMS, and FRA, if you're going to connect to a domestic/schengen flight from an international one, you're going to have to go through immigration, get your bags, go through customs, then go through several layers of security, then find your way to the domestic/schengen area, then recheck your bags, and then finally get on your plane. There are only so many ways to mitigate this.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
If India continues its impressive growth, those secondary and tertiary city pairs become more and more likely to support a nonstop every day. Aircraft capability aside, no one would have believed a nonstop between SFO/BLR would even be seriously entertained a decade ago.

However, if we look at mature markets like the US and Europe, we have plenty of cities which will probably never see a nonstop across the Atlantic. Look at Venice, or Cleveland, or Dusseldorf. They haven't seen scheduled transatlantic service. Not every city can have a nonstop to every city. That's what hubs are for. Hubs will disappear the day we can take an air taxi from New York to Johannesburg.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
That list is going to grow as fast if not faster than 9W's North American offering, plus it seems 9W is not going to include LAX(SFO) in its BRU complex.

Not really. EK had to fight for their rights to fly to India very slowly. The Indian government really makes EK beg for additional flights. Even with EK's almost 100 flights to India, it's not enough. A lot of the passengers are O/D, and the rest go to the other Middle Eastern countries and Europe. EK needs to start sending A380s into India if they want to have proper feed to North America (which they will do eventually) North America is a market that EK can only expand to if they have unfettered access to the Indian and Pakistani market, given that South Asia is the only region that EK can draw passengers from to serve the North American market, and while the Pakistani government has been somewhat friendly to EK, the Indian government has not.

In the case of SFO, the O/D just can't be ignored. There will be cases like that, but at this point, those cases are the exception, and not the rule.
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 39):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
If India continues its impressive growth, those secondary and tertiary city pairs become more and more likely to support a nonstop every day. Aircraft capability aside, no one would have believed a nonstop between SFO/BLR would even be seriously entertained a decade ago.

= True. But, this is India circa 2007 and not 2017. I think 9W anticipates India's growth and will modify its business model accordingly. There is a reason those 787s are part of their fleet strategy.

Good points. The 787s will enable Jet to offer some niche non-stop routes to NA and continue the one-stop strategy through BRU. The 787s can also be used for the one-stops through BRU, and perhaps replace A330s on these routes.

BTW, the current India-Belgium bilaterals allow 21 weekly frequencies on each side, which Jet is fully utilising. Further growth for Jet will come through either using unused rights on the Belgium side, or from a revised bilateral.
 
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bwest
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:54 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:01 pm

According to this article, next destinations are LAX, SFO & IAD, to be added from februari '08

This would be great news, finally BRU will be connected again with the west coast!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5046
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 42):
According to this article, next destinations are LAX, SFO & IAD, to be added from februari '08

SFO will not be connected through BRU, but through PVG.
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:09 pm

A new thread on Jet's plans to LAX and IAD via BRU.
Jet To Fly To LAX And IAD In Feb. 2008 (by LAXDESI Oct 31 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18279
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 40):
Look at NWA in NRT. That hub is not going to go away anytime soon, despite the entry of the 787.

I disagree but I'm not getting into that again. You can search NRT or NW and my user name for the full story Smile.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 40):
They haven't seen scheduled transatlantic service. Not every city can have a nonstop to every city. That's what hubs are for.

I'm not disputing the value of a hub; I'm saying a hub with no local market is a quick way to burn a lot of money.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 40):
The Indian government really makes EK beg for additional flights.

Indian carriers pretty much have to beg for additional flights. EK has three daily NYC and soon one IAH that connect to about ten Indian destinations; it's already got quite a headstart on 9W, and assuming the India/North America fares are worth taking over DXB, they'll continue to do so. Adding the A380, more capacity, and/or more destinations in the Americas is only going to make it more competitive.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4323
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
Indian carriers pretty much have to beg for additional flights. EK has three daily NYC and soon one IAH that connect to about ten Indian destinations;

= Who are the Indian carriers begging? India-USA have an open sky I thought; India-Belgium ASA is being modified as we speak.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 46):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
Indian carriers pretty much have to beg for additional flights. EK has three daily NYC and soon one IAH that connect to about ten Indian destinations;

= Who are the Indian carriers begging? India-USA have an open sky I thought; India-Belgium ASA is being modified as we speak.

India-USA does have open skies, and the revised India-Belgium ASA is expected to allow 56 weekly flights on both sides--which is enough for Jet to launch flights from eight different cities from India. The likely cities besides BOM, DEL, and MAA which already have flights to BRU are:
BLR, HYD, AMD, ATQ, and CCU.

The likely cities on NA side besides JFK, EWR, and YYZ which already have flights from BRU are:
LAX, IAD, ORD, IAH, SFO(?)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18279
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 46):
= Who are the Indian carriers begging? India-USA have an open sky I thought; India-Belgium ASA is being modified as we speak.

The USA yes, but not to the Middle East
I don't take responsibility at all
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Jet Airways Doubling Forecast For BRU

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 48):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 46):
= Who are the Indian carriers begging? India-USA have an open sky I thought; India-Belgium ASA is being modified as we speak.

The USA yes, but not to the Middle East

The United States and Dubai have open skies also... Wink
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