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isuA380B777
Topic Author
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 7:34 am

Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:05 am

Hi All

I cam across this article today. Sorry if this has been discussed before. According to the article, USA regional airlines hire pilots at low as 500 hours. Is that true or just media writing lies? In NZ regionals (Air NZ Link..etc) usually take pilots with a minimum of 1800 + hours.
Can a NZ pilot apply for those regional airline jobs in USA with minimum requirements?

Kind Regards
Isu

Here is the Link

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bus...01E0086257377000E89D7?OpenDocument
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting IsuA380B777 (Thread starter):
USA regional airlines hire pilots at low as 500 hours. Is that true or just media writing lies?

For people coming out of my school, some airlines just ask for a commercial multi license and the ability to breath. No minimum hours.

The shortage is real, and I plan on taking advantage of it when I graduate shortly  yes 
 
isuA380B777
Topic Author
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 1):
The shortage is real, and I plan on taking advantage of it when I graduate shortly

Congradulations.. What is the pay like?
Kind Regards
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting IsuA380B777 (Reply 2):
Congradulations.. What is the pay like?

The pay is terrible. Why do you think there is a shortage?
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting IsuA380B777 (Thread starter):

Can a NZ pilot apply for those regional airline jobs in USA with minimum requirements?

No. You must have a valid work visa.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
pacallen
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:02 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:15 am

The pay is terrible at 17k-25k starting out in the right seat. But hey, I'd take it (and will when I eventually graduate  Smile). Beats paying for hours!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 1):


The shortage is real, and I plan on taking advantage of it when I graduate shortly

Great, and keep the wages pilots make low as hell too.  banghead 

Have fun making 20k a year and living below the poverty level for quite some time. While being away from home over half the month...Sitting next to a captain with 1200 hours...

When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?

There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 am

Last I heard it's first year pay that remains so low (18k-20k), not so much the following years. Not that it gets dramatically better as the years go on, but it doesn't stay ridiculously low.

And first year pay seems to be rising, based on what I'm hearing about the new contract at ASA.

[Edited 2007-10-22 22:16:50]
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 7):
And first year pay seems to be rising, based on what I'm hearing about the new contract at ASA.

The ASA contract doesn't set the bar any higher for first year pay. It just lowers the number of regionals with terrible first year pay. The rest of the contract is pretty good, though.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
silentbob
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?

When will unions stop throwing new hires under the bus when negotiating new contracts? The company can only offer what the union approves.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
Great, and keep the wages pilots make low as hell too.

Have fun making 20k a year and living below the poverty level for quite some time. While being away from home over half the month...Sitting next to a captain with 1200 hours...

When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?

There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit

If you can show me a way to jump into the left seat of a 777 getting paid $200K a year right after college then please do.

We (future) airline pilots have to accept the fact that 98% chances are that we will end up in some crummy regional airline where we will be bending over every day getting screwed in the arse by management. The other 1.9% will end up doing corporate or carrying boxes in flying deathtraps, the remaining .1% might make straight into a major just because daddy drinks and plays golf with the chief pilot, or... is the chief pilot himself.


Its ugly, tedious and unrewarding in the beginning, but that's just how the industry is.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit.

Isn't freedom a bitch?

How is being paid to gain hours so you can move on to a more lucrative job evil? It's no different than interning in architecture or engineering. What's the big deal? And architects have to go through many years of education and work twice the hours of a pilot for the privilege of starting at $20-$25k...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
Have fun making 20k a year and living below the poverty level for quite some time. While being away from home over half the month...Sitting next to a captain with 1200 hours...

When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?

There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit.

That's an attitude of someone who doesn't understand. Most of us do it because we love it. You think we spend thousands and thousands of dollors on training to make 20,000 just for kicks? no, because we love what we are doing and WANT to do it. Being an airline pilot in today's world is hard. And people talk about the 19,000-22,000 salaries. That's the BARE MINIMUM you will make. You can sit home for the entire year and not fly and that's what you'll make. Most of these guys are making 30,000 their first year easy. Yes that is still not a lot of money but it's only like that the first few years. Pay is actually pretty decent for a 4 or 5 year FO at ASA. Pay is pretty much the same across the board. The big decision maker for me would be work rules (all pretty much the same too thought). Although I rather work on the ramp than fly for MESA.
What gets measured gets done.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
And people talk about the 19,000-22,000 salaries. That's the BARE MINIMUM you will make. You can sit home for the entire year and not fly and that's what you'll make. Most of these guys are making 30,000 their first year easy. Yes that is still not a lot of money but it's only like that the first few years. Pay is actually pretty decent for a 4 or 5 year FO at ASA. Pay is pretty much the same across the board. The big decision maker for me would be work rules (all pretty much the same too thought). Although I rather work on the ramp than fly for MESA.

If your profile is correct, how is a 16-20 yo going to make a judgement on what pay is "pretty decent". A quick look at the internet shows the ASA FO year 1 pay is $19/hour. Assuming an average credit month of 80 hours, that is a monthly paycheck of $1520/mo or S18420/yr. In addition you will also get $1.50/hr per diem. Now, factor in taxes, social security, medical insurance, FAA medicals you don't have a whole lot of money left to pay rent/petrol/utilities.....

Let me tell you, the pay sucks! As long as the industry has people who are willing to compromise their standards, pay for their own training/type ratings the standards will decline and compensation will go along with it.

I feel very fortunate to have gotten into aviation when I did. However, I feel as though I have done well in dissuading both my sons from following in my footsteps.
Fly fast, live slow
 
wdleiser
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:29 am

umm i believe DR's don't make much at all at first either and thats if they make anything as an intern and resident. If the majors are hiring then shit you are only at the regionals for 3-4 years, 80 hours a month 12 months a year thats 1000 free hours plus 20 grand.

btw i goto ERAU at Prescott too. We all know along with dr's and business students you get shafted your first few years and must make your way up. It is called life.
 
doug_or
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
30,000 their first year easy.

Good luck with that. It can be done, but I woun't call it easy.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 13):
A quick look at the internet shows the ASA FO year 1 pay is $19/hour. Assuming an average credit month of 80 hours, that is a monthly paycheck of $1520/mo or S18420/yr. In addition you will also get $1.50/hr per diem.

FWIW, the new TA gives 23 and change an hour for first year and 1.60 for per diem. Good luck working just 80 hours. Even if you wanted to you wcouldn't get away with flying that litt le.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 15):
FWIW, the new TA gives 23 and change an hour for first year and 1.60 for per diem. Good luck working just 80 hours. Even if you wanted to you wcouldn't get away with flying that litt le

I referred to "credit hours". If you do fly 80 (average/month) you really can't do much more that. You run up to the 1000/yr, even with the new pay scale, that's still not much of a raise and it pushes the annual salary up to S22K. More importantly, my reply was about someone with no experience, outside of the industry making the statement the pay is decent! It's not.
Fly fast, live slow
 
doug_or
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
my reply was about someone with no experience, outside of the industry making the statement the pay is decent! It's not.

Agreed!

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
If you do fly 80 (average/month) you really can't do much more that. You run up to the 1000/yr, even with the new pay scale

First year pay is from DOH almost everywhere, though, so even if you start on jan 1st, you'd have to fly your butt off to hit 1000 in your first year year to time spent in training.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 17):
First year pay is from DOH almost everywhere, though, so even if you start on jan 1st, you'd have to fly your butt off to hit 1000 in your first year year to time spent in training.

But if you've been in a prior job, it still counts and year 2 is a full year. 1000 hours a year is only 84 hours month. That's not all that much.
Fly fast, live slow
 
av8r915
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 7:24 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
How is being paid to gain hours so you can move on to a more lucrative job evil? It's no different than interning in architecture or engineering. What's the big deal? And architects have to go through many years of education and work twice the hours of a pilot for the privilege of starting at $20-$25k...

Most pilots only get paid when the door is shut on the airplane and the brakes are released (ACARS equipped planes) No pay for preflight walkarounds, paperwork, pax boarding, or sit time between flights. It's not unusual to have duty days of 14-16 hours and pay/flight hours amounting to less than half that amount.

[Edited 2007-10-23 00:34:52]
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 10):

If you can show me a way to jump into the left seat of a 777 getting paid $200K a year right after college then please do.

Good luck with that. The industry is heavily saturated with highly qualified pilots right now that your chances of getting that "dream 777 job" are getting pretty slim. Not to mention that you're gonna be on the tail end of a huge seniority list, all of whom are itching to move on up.

Just take a look at the "most junior captain hired" dates on airlinepilotforums.com. Those legacy pilots have been with the airline 10+ years (some almost 20) before making the jump to captain. You think that number is going to go down?!?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):

How is being paid to gain hours so you can move on to a more lucrative job evil? It's no different than interning in architecture or engineering. What's the big deal? And architects have to go through many years of education and work twice the hours of a pilot for the privilege of starting at $20-$25k...

See below.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 13):

Let me tell you, the pay sucks! As long as the industry has people who are willing to compromise their standards, pay for their own training/type ratings the standards will decline and compensation will go along with it.

I feel very fortunate to have gotten into aviation when I did. However, I feel as though I have done well in dissuading both my sons from following in my footsteps.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):

That's an attitude of someone who doesn't understand. Most of us do it because we love it. You think we spend thousands and thousands of dollors on training to make 20,000 just for kicks? no, because we love what we are doing and WANT to do it. Being an airline pilot in today's world is hard. And people talk about the 19,000-22,000 salaries. That's the BARE MINIMUM you will make. You can sit home for the entire year and not fly and that's what you'll make. Most of these guys are making 30,000 their first year easy. Yes that is still not a lot of money but it's only like that the first few years. Pay is actually pretty decent for a 4 or 5 year FO at ASA. Pay is pretty much the same across the board. The big decision maker for me would be work rules (all pretty much the same too thought). Although I rather work on the ramp than fly for MESA.

No, I have the attitude that i'm not going to compromise my standards and pay just to get in the seat of an aircraft. You're the ones that are bringing down the industry, not me. Ask any pilot who has been in the industry for a while what he thinks about the wet commercial FO who is sitting next to him. It won't be pretty. Give back to the aviation community, get your CFI, and build your hours. Then work for a regional that actually gives a damn about the workforce and won't compromise their standards to attract applicants. Don't tell me that I don't understand. I've spent those thousands of dollars on my ratings, and I am finding something else to do until the airlines go back to the way they were (which will never happen). $30,000 a year will not happen, unless you work for Horizon, who is the highest paying regional in the industry at 29/hr. Multiply that by 1,000 (the max hours allowed/year) and you will not be making "30,000 their first year easy." Not to mention that you're making that happen (to quote an acquaintance):
...while making poverty wages...
...and flying 20+ days per month...
...on reserve...
...commuting to a fleabag crashpad...
...or sleeping in a crew lounge...
...in a city far away from your loved ones...
...on their birthday...
...or on Christmas...

Have fun with that. But don't come back bitching when you can't afford your mortgage or rent, you're sleeping out of your car, and you're scrounging food from the pilot lounge. All for a crappy job. Maybe one day you'll find out that QOL will surpass your urge to fly for a living.

[Edited 2007-10-23 00:45:28]

[Edited 2007-10-23 00:56:22]
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 13):
If your profile is correct, how is a 16-20 yo going to make a judgement on what pay is "pretty decent". A quick look at the internet shows the ASA FO year 1 pay is $19/hour. Assuming an average credit month of 80 hours, that is a monthly paycheck of $1520/mo or S18420/yr. In addition you will also get $1.50/hr per diem. Now, factor in taxes, social security, medical insurance, FAA medicals you don't have a whole lot of money left to pay rent/petrol/utilities.....

Don't let teh profile fool you pal. My father has been shit on for the past 20 years at CO. My brother graduated from ERAU 2 years ago and has been working for ASA for teh past 9 months. I personally know (not acquaintances, know) guys working their asses off, because that is what they want to do. Maybe you missed my point. I know how this business works. I grew up around it.

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
Have fun with that. But don't come back bitching when you can't afford your mortgage or rent, you're sleeping out of your car, and you're scrounging food from the pilot lounge. All for a crappy job. Maybe one day you'll find out that QOL will surpass your urge to fly for a living.

I don't know, maybe I missed something, seems to me like your the one bitching. The problem with the old heads is that things aren't how they use to be. Well I can't tell you or relate to you on how things were, I can tell you how they are now. It's all a matter of perspective. Move on.
What gets measured gets done.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21):
Don't let teh profile fool you pal. My father has been shit on for the past 20 years at CO. My brother graduated from ERAU 2 years ago and has been working for ASA for teh past 9 months. I personally know (not acquaintances, know) guys working their asses off, because that is what they want to do. Maybe you missed my point. I know how this business works. I grew up around it.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21):
I don't know, maybe I missed something, seems to me like your the one bitching. The problem with the old heads is that things aren't how they use to be. Well I can't tell you or relate to you on how things were, I can tell you how they are now. It's all a matter of perspective. Move on.

Well, I went back and re-read your post and have yet to see what your point is. My point is that as pilots we are our own worst enemies. When I got hired the B scale was just being introduced by AA, pilots made a conscious choice to accept that or go someplace else. I went someplace else. But, we continually sell our souls and justify it by getting experience, by getting a type rating. But we continually lower our salaries and diminish our working conditions by doing so. If you're in the 16-20 year range, I have more experience than you have years of your life. I don't need lessons as to how things are now. Things are that way because we as pilots have always screwed ourselves.

So, if you do have a point, please try to express it in a logical manner so not only me but other readers can understand and comprehend your message.  Smile
Fly fast, live slow
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:38 am

Thanks! Your statements were very discouraging. I understand that it is what it is, believe me. I do respect you and your time in the business but I'm saying i've been immersed in it too. for the past 20 years of my life. I've seen how it was with my Dad being gone ALL the time. Yes we did live comfortably but it didn't make up for him being gone. But please understand were I am coming from. I love aviation. And Ireally don't care what the pay is. I just know that i'll have to make it work and it won't be like that forever. That was my point. Guys who I hang out with and is now flying feels the same way too. We also know that things aren't easy and that we will be working our asses off. But it is because of something we love. That's why I said u missed my point. We know about all the cons that you have stated.

BTW, kudos to you for trying to get a better life for your son. I know what you mean, my dad tried the same thing with me, but it didn't work, and he understands.
What gets measured gets done.
 
2175301
Posts: 2052
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:28 am

My barber worked on and received his civil aviation pilots license after several years - and is working to build up his hours and gain an instrument rating.

He mentions that he is continually bombarded by several schools that, if he were to sell his house, he could afford to attend and gain a commercial rating for entry into commercial aviation.

While he loves flying - and is really intrigued by the possibilities - he also understands that he makes a lot more money as a barber than he would as a commercial pilot for the first 5 to 10 years.

As he sums it up: Sell the house to pay for school - have to rent a place - and make less money for years.... Being a barber and being able to fly several times a week isn't so bad a life...

So, if you are interested in flying... Why not become a barber and have your own little shop where you can set your own hours... There is a shortage of male barbers out there - and a lot of guys just want a haircut and not a hair style...

School's a lot cheaper too.

Just a thought of the possibilities
 
speedbird2263
Posts: 206
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 24):
Just a thought of the possibilities

Absolutely Priceless Mate.  slaphappy 
Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:02 pm

When I was young I desired to be an airline pilot, but at that time it was very hard to get into the airlines unless you were ex-military, and the military did not accept anyone for flight training who wore glasses, which I have since fourth grade (even though my corrected vision has always been better than 20-20.) The last thing I wanted to be was an engineer, since my father, grandfather, and great-great grandfather were all engineers. Once I got out of college I pursued other avenues that did not work out, and I was in the position of needing a job and wasn't fussy about what it was. I went into a local machine shop looking for a machinist's job (which I had done before) and they decided I should be an engineer, and hired me as one (I had never taken a mechanical engineering course in my life.) I discovered that I loved it, and what was more important, was good at it. It has not been easy, as the entire industry that I started out in (machine tools) has nearly disappeared in my area; and I have had many violent economic ups and downs in my career. I suspect that many pilots will experience the same; job security is something that basically does not exist any more in most fields. But the most important thing, I believe, is to enjoy what you have chosen to do. If you desire to fly more than anything else and would be unhappy doing anything else, then whatever sacrifice you have to make to make it happen will be worth it. But if you are looking at the fat salaries that senior pilots make and have visions of copious time off and free vacation travel, find another career.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?



Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
I don't need lessons as to how things are now. Things are that way because we as pilots have always screwed ourselves.

It's simple supply and demand. There are so many people that want to be pilots that the airlines can offer poor wages for entry level people.

Pilots aren't immune to the law of supply and demand. I know several people with university degrees in art or music that they worked very hard for and paid dearly for, and would love to have a steady (albeit crappy) pay check in their chosen career as opposed to what they have now, which is working a day job they hate and doing their chosen career as a hobby on the side, hoping it blossoms into a steady albeit crappy pay check.

I'm glad you were able to dissuade your sons from becoming pilots, PhilSquares, because I agree, it is a crappy line of work to be entering. A lot of the points raised above (for instance, time away from the family) do not get fixed by bigger paychecks. I hope they found other things to do with their careers that they truely enjoy and will be successful at. But some people have it in their DNA to become pilots, or artists, or musicians, and telling them that they are going to have a crappy career just doesn't matter to them. And, as noted above, the supply of these people is larger than the demand, so the career will continue to be a crappy one.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
speedbird2263
Posts: 206
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
. Give back to the aviation community, get your CFI, and build your hours. Then work for a regional that actually gives a damn about the workforce and won't compromise their standards to attract applicants. Don't tell me that I don't understand. I've spent those thousands of dollars on my ratings, and I am finding something else to do until the airlines go back to the way they were (which will never happen)

With all due respect, Im sensing that you might just have gotten into the field primarily for the financial compensation that used to to come along with it right across the board. Cliche or not, passion for what you love to do still exists and I for one still have that passion deeply embedded in me. Reality certainly outlines a breaking point, if you will, where the bar simply cant be lowered anymore however, until Im positively assured that its impossible for me to advance in this industry and still live a decent life, my unabashed love for sitting up front remains unmoved. That however is just my humble opinion.  Smile


Speedbird
Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
 
georgebush
Posts: 488
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 10):
If you can show me a way to jump into the left seat of a 777 getting paid $200K a year right after college then please do.

Don't focus on the U.S. Regionals. My friend graduated Purdue flight school, and got a job with EK in the right seat of a 773. You can't put your eggs all in one basket.

You need to think about who is ordering airplanes, and who plans on growing. Think of how many 380's EK has ordered for the next few years... They need pilots. The US Regional market is def. not getting any bigger any time fast. Think outside the box, and try and get on with some foreign carriers. If you dont like it.. well stick it out because making 100k in the right seat of a 773 is a hell of a lot better than 17k in the right seat of a CRJ.
EK - Serious Pilot Shortage? (by Clickhappy Jun 30 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
Pu752
Posts: 451
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:41 pm

You've to take it this way : you get paid for flying, they give you the training for example for a CRJ and you keep gaining experience and hours, a couple of years at the regional carrier then you can apply for mayor carrier, most regional pilots have secondary jobs for paying their studies.....if want to be a pilot then you've to make sacrifices.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:05 pm

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 29):
Don't focus on the U.S. Regionals. My friend graduated Purdue flight school, and got a job with EK in the right seat of a 773. You can't put your eggs all in one basket.

I can assure you it wasn't right out of flight school when he got the job.......
Fly fast, live slow
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
Have fun with that. But don't come back bitching when you can't afford your mortgage or rent, you're sleeping out of your car, and you're scrounging food from the pilot lounge. All for a crappy job. Maybe one day you'll find out that QOL will surpass your urge to fly for a living.

I won't come back bitching because I accepted the fact that that's how its gonna be most likely, whether I want it or not.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21):
seems to me like your the one bitching.

 checkmark 
 
NwAflyer07
Posts: 139
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:45 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit.

Very true, but I'd rather be happy with what i spend most of my time doing then be miserable doing something else. I used to work as a busboy making $7.00 per hour plus tips. All that averaged out to about $17.00 per hour working weekends. However, after a year and a half, i decided to follow my passion and enter the airline industry. Now, i work at Northwest making $9.10 an hour and having to pay for gas/tolls since i no longer work at the place across the street. I get more hours and make more money, but i work harder for that money. Im happy because, not only is my father in charge of maintenance just a few doors down from where i work, but im also around an environment i like doing a job i love.

Obviously i have no bills or family to support, but the point is that following ur passion is the key to being happy. All this said, however, i'm still very uncertain as to whether or not im going to become a pilot or not... Its a really tough decision for me choosing between my passion and a job with a steady salary.
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21):
I don't know, maybe I missed something, seems to me like your the one bitching.

You're right, I am. Because its people and attitudes like yours that have helped ruin the airline industry, and soon to wreck the ATC field too. Thanks.

Quoting Speedbird2263 (Reply 28):

With all due respect, Im sensing that you might just have gotten into the field primarily for the financial compensation that used to to come along with it right across the board. Cliche or not, passion for what you love to do still exists and I for one still have that passion deeply embedded in me. Reality certainly outlines a breaking point, if you will, where the bar simply cant be lowered anymore however, until Im positively assured that its impossible for me to advance in this industry and still live a decent life, my unabashed love for sitting up front remains unmoved. That however is just my humble opinion. Smile

I originally got into aviation because it has been something I've always loved. However, it was different years ago. I was originally planning on being an airline pilot, by why live below the poverty line for a while? Not to mention everything else involved with being a pilot. Ever heard of AIDS? Being an airline pilot doesn't make sense at all right now. I can and will still get a job in the aviation field, and who knows, maybe some day I'll make enough money to own my own plane, build my own, or have my own business that needs a plane. I can always fly for fun. There's only so far one's passion can take you, and in my opinion, it is not worth it at this time. I can have a good balance between happy and financially stable.

Quoting PU752 (Reply 30):
You've to take it this way : you get paid for flying, they give you the training for example for a CRJ and you keep gaining experience and hours, a couple of years at the regional carrier then you can apply for mayor carrier, most regional pilots have secondary jobs for paying their studies.....if want to be a pilot then you've to make sacrifices.

At the current rate it's going to be a lot longer than a couple of years at a regional. Like I said before, there are gobs of high time qualified pilots that have been 'stuck' at the regionals for a while, just itching to get on with the majors/legacies when they start hiring. New hire pilots are at the bottom of that line.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:06 pm

Jeez, some of the things you guys are describing I'd imagine coming from someone who decided on this line of work for the money and prestige more than because it was their passion.

I'm well aware what I'm getting into. I've been informed of the poverty, I've been informed of the conditions, and I continue to get updates on the quality of the job from a good friend (and my last CFII) who sits right seat in a CRJ at ASA. I've chosen this line of work because it's my passion, and damn anyone who decides to look down on me for "giving in" to what the airlines offer. Let's face it, I could go off to a better regional carrier, or even straight to a legacy carrier. But I'd have to spend 2-3 more years training and spending more money and time to get to the point where I'd be looked at. Of course I could choose a different career - but I wouldn't like what I was doing, and I'd always wish that I followed what made me happy.

Everyone has to eat s*** before they can move on to something that is truly worthwhile. My 1-3 years at a regional carrier is my s***, and I've come to terms with it. I'll get free time, a salary better than what I'm getting now (working part time as a barista - which, believe it or not, is enough to keep me alive with food and shelter while I finish my Comm/CFI), I'll get to go places, and ultimately I'll get to strap myself into a jet. Works for me  Silly
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
AF022
Posts: 1883
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 29):
Don't focus on the U.S. Regionals. My friend graduated Purdue flight school, and got a job with EK in the right seat of a 773. You can't put your eggs all in one basket.

Not just EK on their jumbos. Aren't airlines in Africa desperate for 737 pilots? I've heard KQ and ET are both hard up for pilots for their 737s. Granted, I'm not sure what the salaries are, but maybe a little in adventure in Nairobi or Addis would be more exciting than poverty in Peoria.
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:35 pm

All of you folks saying "Hey, I'll spend 1-3 yrs at the regionals and get some free jet time" need to reevaluate the statements you are making. I would surmise that most of you are teenagers or still in college and have high hopes of achieving the airline dream. If your goal is to become a professional airline pilot, then you need to start thinking like one. You need to value your skills and be willing to fight for the compensation that your skillset deserves. The regionals will be the highest level some of you will reach in your career. Do not accept less than adequate compensation when you are there because you may be there for a career. Get involved in your union because good contracts do not come down from thin air, they must be negotiated by regular line pilots from your company. Some of you will make it to the major airline level. Congratulations, now work to keep the respect and compensation for this venerable profession the highest it can be. If you want to be considered equals to your doctor, lawyer and businessman counterparts, act professionally and demand to be paid like one.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 34):
I originally got into aviation because it has been something I've always loved. However, it was different years ago. I was originally planning on being an airline pilot, by why live below the poverty line for a while?

Try telling this to the nearest musician. Face it, even the less-glamorous-than-yesteryear airline business still has its appeal - a steady (if crappy) paycheck. Most musicians I know live below the poverty line, spend many more hours per day practicing their skills than any pilot I know, end up taking long trips, staying in fleabag hotels, and are away from friends and family as a part of their business. Yet they love it, so they perservere...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ourboeing
Posts: 328
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:42 pm

A friend of mine is an Airbus 320 captain in India. Would he be able to get a job doing the same here in the US?

Thx.
 
av8rphx
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:10 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:53 pm

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 35):
Let's face it, I could go off to a better regional carrier, or even straight to a legacy carrier. But I'd have to spend 2-3 more years training and spending more money and time to get to the point where I'd be looked at.

I think you may have had a little too much of the Kool-Aid, but there is no way to "buy" your way "straight into a legacy carrier". Ive been out of the airlines for just under a year now, while it was my passion in life, I can say I've been there done that. Unfortunately, for some of us, reality kicks in and we have responsbilities such as mortgages, car payments and food to put on the table. Working for the airlines isnt what it used to be, and I highly suspect it will never return to its "glory day". Until everyone gets cured from their SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) and stop working for peanuts, things will not improve. Its too bad prospective airline pilots cant do "ride alongs" for a trip like people can do with the Fire Dept. I think alot of people would change their tune after a fun filled day of JRAs,cancellation without pay,6 legs including an illegal to Bumblefsck,KS at 2am and you havent eaten since 4pm and the only food is the stale hotel lobby popcorn. Ahh yes, "living the dream".
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
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RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
Great, and keep the wages pilots make low as hell too.

Have fun making 20k a year and living below the poverty level for quite some time. While being away from home over half the month...Sitting next to a captain with 1200 hours...

When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?

There's a reason conditions aren't improving. People are willing to work for nothing just to sit in a cockpit.



Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
No, I have the attitude that i'm not going to compromise my standards and pay just to get in the seat of an aircraft. You're the ones that are bringing down the industry, not me.

Bulls**t. You would absolutley go to a PART 121 AIRLINE if they hired you at whatever low hours you have.

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
Give back to the aviation community, get your CFI, and build your hours. Then work for a regional that actually gives a damn about the workforce and won't compromise their standards to attract applicants

What the hell for? I don't owe the aviation community anything. I have however HAPPILY given back when I became an airline pilot this summer. And FYI, ALL regionals have their shitty aspect right now. But you know what, so do ALL major airlines too. Good luck on NEVER flying in the airline industry with your outlook on things.

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
Don't tell me that I don't understand. I've spent those thousands of dollars on my ratings, and I am finding something else to do until the airlines go back to the way they were (which will never happen).

You DON'T understand. You're still a student at school and NOT flying for an airline. You can afford to sit there on your high horse while all your other friends (and myself) go to regionals with 300 total hours. And get this "wait till the airlines go back to the way they were" crap out of your head. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 34):
You're right, I am. Because its people and attitudes like yours that have helped ruin the airline industry, and soon to wreck the ATC field too. Thanks.

Blah blah blah, whine whine whine

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 34):

I originally got into aviation because it has been something I've always loved. However, it was different years ago. I was originally planning on being an airline pilot, by why live below the poverty line for a while?

Well I think this one sums up the fact that you NEVER had a passion about aviation, or at least a true one. I TRULY have a passion for aviation. You know why? because I've wanted to be a pilot since I was a child. I went to ERAU and got my degree in Aviation, then I was hired an airline apon graduation and took the job willingly all while ACCEPECTING the hardships and lack of pay becuase I know if I get my foot in the door this early I am set. If something is truly your passion you will look at the big picture and realize it is worth the cost.

Basically Joness, I believe you are a whiny baby and had soemething happen to you that will prevent you from being an airline pilot in this little golden age of hiring we are having. You sit here and criticize us for taking jobs at low hours when you know goddamn well you would do the same thing (if you were ever truly passionate about it). And if older pilots bitch and moan about us being young and inexperienced, they can kiss our a**. Why? becuase they too would have done the EXACT SAME THING and taken a job the second they could have. For anyone that wants to be an airline pilot right to and sit back all high and mighty and criticize the industry and say "I'm going to wait until aviation gets better and do my CFI in the meantime" is just utter BS. So go ahead and say what you need to Jones, but what it comes down to is that I am a 22 year olf, 300 hour, Part 121 airline pilot that started working exactly one month after graduating college. And whats the kicker...? Almost WEEKLY in college I would tell people "I do NOT want to be an airline pilot. I want to fly for the military". I was dead set on never flying a bus around but you know what, that airline gave me the chance and I jumped on it becuase I would have been stupid not too.

*for the rest of you. I apologize for this little rant. But this guy is just spitting out "i'm bitter" BS left and right and it just pisses me off (and most of you it would seem too). I hope it is all somewhat coherent and makes sense, but I'm just amazed by his posts and am curious as to what the reasoning behind it is.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 41):

Bulls**t. You would absolutley go to a PART 121 AIRLINE if they hired you at whatever low hours you have.

I have and exceed the required amount of hours to get into some of the bottom tier regionals right now. However, you will not see me there.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 41):

What the hell for? I don't owe the aviation community anything. I have however HAPPILY given back when I became an airline pilot this summer. And FYI, ALL regionals have their shitty aspect right now. But you know what, so do ALL major airlines too. Good luck on NEVER flying in the airline industry with your outlook on things.

Ahh, this is the Riddle'tude. Me me me me. You and your shiny jet syndrome. Learn the ropes. Someone spent hundreds of hours giving you the lessons you need to get to be where you are. With people like you, no one is going to be left passing on their passion of aviation to the next generation.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 41):

Well I think this one sums up the fact that you NEVER had a passion about aviation, or at least a true one. I TRULY have a passion for aviation. You know why? because I've wanted to be a pilot since I was a child. I went to ERAU and got my degree in Aviation, then I was hired an airline apon graduation and took the job willingly all while ACCEPECTING the hardships and lack of pay becuase I know if I get my foot in the door this early I am set. If something is truly your passion you will look at the big picture and realize it is worth the cost.

Basically Joness, I believe you are a whiny baby and had soemething happen to you that will prevent you from being an airline pilot in this little golden age of hiring we are having. You sit here and criticize us for taking jobs at low hours when you know goddamn well you would do the same thing (if you were ever truly passionate about it). And if older pilots bitch and moan about us being young and inexperienced, they can kiss our a**. Why? becuase they too would have done the EXACT SAME THING and taken a job the second they could have. For anyone that wants to be an airline pilot right to and sit back all high and mighty and criticize the industry and say "I'm going to wait until aviation gets better and do my CFI in the meantime" is just utter BS. So go ahead and say what you need to Jones, but what it comes down to is that I am a 22 year olf, 300 hour, Part 121 airline pilot that started working exactly one month after graduating college. And whats the kicker...? Almost WEEKLY in college I would tell people "I do NOT want to be an airline pilot. I want to fly for the military". I was dead set on never flying a bus around but you know what, that airline gave me the chance and I jumped on it becuase I would have been stupid not too.

Wow, so Riddle is still full of people like you.

Passion for aviation does not equal passion for the airlines.

This is the attitude that, like I said earlier, is bringing down the commercial aviation industry. You know very little about flying with only 300 hours, and the right seat of an airliner is no place to be with those kind of times. I could very easily be in the same position you are (look at me! I'm a 300 hour wonder pilot!) If I were to reconsider the airline world (and I may) it would be after I got done with a few years of CFI work, where according to 99% of CFI's, you learn most about flying.

You know nothing about my passion for aviation, and I'm not going to write it here because it would take too long. But I argue with you people because I care. I care about how the industry is going to turn out. I care about the next generation of pilots coming through the pilot schools (rather than the "fuck the grandkids" attitude I see here). I wouldn't be helping the industry at all if I hopped into the pilot's seat with 300 hours. Go on, tell me how I don't have a passion again?

[Edited 2007-10-23 11:30:58]
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:11 pm

Wait a second, let me get this straight, Joness...

You're complaining becuase you think the majority of us aren't going to become a CFI before heading off to the airlines?

No wonder you're so bitter, you've got your head halfway up your own arse.

[Edited 2007-10-23 11:13:21]
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
n710ps
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 10):
daddy drinks and plays golf with the chief pilot, or... is the chief pilot himself.

Damn my dad, he just plays golf with lawyers and judges. I knew he was hanging out at the wrong courses all of these years!

[Edited 2007-10-23 11:13:15]

[Edited 2007-10-23 11:13:59]
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 43):


Wait a second, let me get this straight, Joness...

You're complaining becuase you think the majority of us aren't going to become a CFI before heading off to the airlines?

No wonder you're so bitter, you've got you heard halfway up your own arse.

That is part of the reason, yes, but nowhere as high on the list as my other reasons.

I'm bitter because you guys are turning the industry to shit. Why should I not be?
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:16 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 45):
I'm bitter because you guys are turning the industry to shit. Why should I not be?

How exactly are we turning the industry to shit? By applying for jobs? Following our passion? Getting our hours up by becoming a CFI beforehand?

It's really hard for me to follow you past the whining blather, here. Please be more specific.
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
schipholjfk
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:11 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 6):
Great, and keep the wages pilots make low as hell too. banghead

Have fun making 20k a year and living below the poverty level for quite some time. While being away from home over half the month...Sitting next to a captain with 1200 hours...

When will people realize that airlines will not have to raise wages and standards when people are willing to work for dirt cheap and no experience?

It's called capitalism. It's the fault of us consumers since we all demand low low low unrealistic ticket prices! Why blame anyone else? Tell me one person who does not check for prices online and then buys a ticket. Wal-Mart, low ticket prices, etc - all are products of consumers' hunger for unrealistic prices! So when we are all willing to pay for something at a realistic levels, then we can also expect to see living wages. You can't have it both ways - low pay, high wages. It's simple mathematics... 2+2 is 4 and not 1.
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 46):

How exactly are we turning the industry to shit? By applying for jobs? Following our passion? Getting our hours up by becoming a CFI beforehand?

It's really hard for me to follow you past the whining blather, here. Please be more specific.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't to clear. But these guys certainly are. I'll emphasize key points:

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 40):
Ive been out of the airlines for just under a year now, while it was my passion in life, I can say I've been there done that. Unfortunately, for some of us, reality kicks in and we have responsbilities such as mortgages, car payments and food to put on the table. Working for the airlines isnt what it used to be, and I highly suspect it will never return to its "glory day". Until everyone gets cured from their SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) and stop working for peanuts, things will not improve. Its too bad prospective airline pilots cant do "ride alongs" for a trip like people can do with the Fire Dept. I think alot of people would change their tune after a fun filled day of JRAs,cancellation without pay,6 legs including an illegal to Bumblefsck,KS at 2am and you havent eaten since 4pm and the only food is the stale hotel lobby popcorn. Ahh yes, "living the dream".



Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 37):
I would surmise that most of you are teenagers or still in college and have high hopes of achieving the airline dream. If your goal is to become a professional airline pilot, then you need to start thinking like one. You need to value your skills and be willing to fight for the compensation that your skillset deserves. The regionals will be the highest level some of you will reach in your career. Do not accept less than adequate compensation when you are there because you may be there for a career. Get involved in your union because good contracts do not come down from thin air, they must be negotiated by regular line pilots from your company. Some of you will make it to the major airline level. Congratulations, now work to keep the respect and compensation for this venerable profession the highest it can be. If you want to be considered equals to your doctor, lawyer and businessman counterparts, act professionally and demand to be paid like one.

Easy enough to understand now?
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Pilot Shortage In USA

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:29 pm

It still seems like you're fighting for reasons to say 'no' to the business instead of jumping in and changing it firsthand.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about the calibur of pilot that enters into a job with a regional airline. I'm not seeing this "shiny jet syndrome" you're speaking of, and a lot of my classmates are holding out as CFIs until they can meet the requirements for "worthwhile" regionals (SkyWest, Republic, ExpressJet, etc).

Are we turning the industry too, or is it all new regional pilots? Maybe my passion is blinding me...  no 
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.

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