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SkyyMaster
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 48):
but Nashville itself was part of the problem, it wasn't just jetBlue.

Examples? The New York market is Nashville's largest O&D market. CO flies 6 ERJ's to EWR, AA 3 M80's to LGA, and DL 3 CRJ's to JFK. Compared to many eastern cities, that is not a lot of flights. So exactly how is the city of Nashville to blame if an airline doesn't advertise and thus not succeed? Are people just supposed to magically know JetBlue is here and start falling all over each other to fly them? Please elaborate on your comment?
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:44 am

Frontier has never really advertized in BNA yet they have been very successful.


I think it just comes down to the fact that JFK is not the best NYC area airport and the other carriers were able to match the price with better frequencies and similier pricing.

Jet Blue just didn't do well with the Nashville market, there are only so many people fly in the BNA region.
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ERJ170
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 50):
So exactly how is the city of Nashville to blame if an airline doesn't advertise and thus not succeed? Are people just supposed to magically know JetBlue is here and start falling all over each other to fly them? Please elaborate on your comment?

Perhaps I can take a swing at this one?

Nashville should have had some advertising of their own. The city and the airport. How? Well, the best free advertisement is news coverage. Put them in the news.. You can dang sure agree everyone else does. And Nashville airport authority should have signs around stating jetblue service. You can bet other airports do that.

How are the people supposed to know? Hmm.. NEWS COVERAGE! It's free! for real... How else should they know? Again.. banners up in the airport.. Notification on the airport website.. News in the airport newsletter.. there are just so many options..

Again.. most airlines don't go full out... head over heels.. heels to Jesus.. advertisement except in their home market and important focus cities.. and Nashville is not that for jetBlue.. so it was up to the airport and the city to do that for them..

And regardless what anyone from BNA says.. Southwest IS their major airline and they are a hub for Southwest..
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B752OS
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 50):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 48):
but Nashville itself was part of the problem, it wasn't just jetBlue.

Examples? The New York market is Nashville's largest O&D market. CO flies 6 ERJ's to EWR, AA 3 M80's to LGA, and DL 3 CRJ's to JFK. Compared to many eastern cities, that is not a lot of flights. So exactly how is the city of Nashville to blame if an airline doesn't advertise and thus not succeed? Are people just supposed to magically know JetBlue is here and start falling all over each other to fly them? Please elaborate on your comment?

Well to be honest, B6 does not do a whole lot of advertising in the Boston area. The only thing that really stands out is the big billboard on the Pike and a few radio ads here and there. In any event, an airline can only do so much. BNA was not destined to be a major station so why should there be a HUGE media and marketing blitz?

Also, looking at Faremeasure that shows a chart with the average fares between the 2 cities shows a huge drop from Q1 in 2006 to Q4 in 2006. So one could say that the market itself caved in. Also, BNA-NYC is well served, 3 airlines offering 12 x daily flights.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):
WHo takes the train when they are going to a business meeting? no one I know.

Many business travelers in my firm coming to the States for meetings use trains to come from JFK into Manhattan...why not? They take trains to work every day in London, Tokyo, Frankfurt, or Hong Kong. I'm sure when the CEO comes in he has a limo, but more routine visitors use the trains, just as I always used Heathrow Express when I used to travel to London. (HE to Paddington, Tube to Liverpool St. - faster than a car service and much cheaper.)

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):
I said from the financial district EWR is closer, read my post. Midtown to LGA is faster

I did read your post, I'm just disagreeing with you. If you leave Midtown at, say, 4:30 on a weekday, you can get to EWR or JFK just as fast on public transport as you can get to LGA in a cab or on public transport. (Now if you're comparing cab-vs-cab, then yes, LGA is faster. )
 
Lexy
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 52):
Nashville should have had some advertising of their own. The city and the airport. How? Well, the best free advertisement is news coverage. Put them in the news.. You can dang sure agree everyone else does. And Nashville airport authority should have signs around stating jetblue service. You can bet other airports do that.

How are the people supposed to know? Hmm.. NEWS COVERAGE! It's free! for real... How else should they know? Again.. banners up in the airport.. Notification on the airport website.. News in the airport newsletter.. there are just so many options..

They were in the news, had banners, had the newspaper, and had signs all through the airport. Do you honestly think they parked a plane at B16 and just let people "stumble" upon it?

But if it's not news worthy, you don't get coverage unless you ADVERTISE during the news! You can't say to the news crews, "hey come out here and make something up for the 10 o'clock news."
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 54):
on public transport as you can get to LGA in a cab or on public transport. (Now if you're comparing cab-vs-cab, then yes, LGA is faster. )

that would be a neat trick. have fun with that.
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jetbluefan1
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:19 am

I'm not going to argue in this silly "which one is better? JFK, EWR, or LGA" battle - been there, done that, but this struck me as odd:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):
WHo takes the train when they are going to a business meeting? no one I know.

Been on the subway lately? Or the LIRR during any weekday? NYC is all about trains, and those going to a business meeting have no trouble hopping on the AirTrain. It's just like any other train in the tri-state area. Be it the LIRR, the subway, NJ Transit, or the AirTrain - New Yorkers and visitors alike will use the train because, quite frankly, a car is just not practical in NYC.

JetBluefan1
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:22 am

Not to mention...I work downtown. If I have a meeting in Brooklyn, I take the train. The headquarters of my company is in Midtown. I take the train there too. And I take the train to go to/from my house on Long Island. So do hundreds of thousands of fellow businessmen and women.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 52):
Nashville should have had some advertising of their own. The city and the airport. How? Well, the best free advertisement is news coverage. Put them in the news.. You can dang sure agree everyone else does. And Nashville airport authority should have signs around stating jetblue service. You can bet other airports do that.

The city and airport did promote JetBlue, however, it is not the job of either to do so. They were on the news and in the papers. On all four network newscasts. How much more does the local press and city have to do? If any company comes to town (not just an airline), they advertise, heavily. If they don't, most likely they do not stay in business. People can blame Nashville and/or the airport but that is a ridiculous argument. For MNAA to promote B6 beyond what they did would have given them preferential treatment over incumbent airlines, who would not have been very appreciative. As someone who flew them several times on business along with my colleagues, I can give my theories why they failed: They didn't advertise enough, but we've beaten that horse to death. Myself and people I know complained they were consistently late which often resulted in missed connections; the press they got over the Valentines Day meltdown, deserved or not, scared a lot of people away. Still the bottom line is it is the airline's responsibility to get it's name out in front of the public, not the city or airport. Perhaps a huge billboard on I-40 near the airport exit stating "JET BLUE FLIES HERE" would have helped?
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 57):
Been on the subway lately? Or the LIRR during any weekday? NYC is all about trains, and those going to a business meeting have no trouble hopping on the AirTrain.


All of the above!


I have taken the subway occassionally too, (once I have taken a car service to the hotel. dragging a laptop bag and a carry on or checked bag is not very fun.

I guess it depends on what industry you are in, but consultants billing by the hour typically do not waste time on a train from JFK when they are billing at 325 or more an hour.

[Edited 2007-10-25 07:04:52]
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Cubsrule
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:41 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 48):
Putting the blame largely on "they didn't do advertising" doesn't really fly.

Perhaps not. However, having lived in Charlotte when B6 launched CLT, I can tell you that B6 advertised heavily in metro Charlotte (and I think they still do, though I'm in St. Louis now). Why they did not choose to do that in Nashville is, I think, a valid question.
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ScottB
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 37):
but if FL wanted to, do you think they'd be successful this go around if they were to launch PIT-LGA or BOS?

Well, they could be successful, but they probably wouldn't be. PIT-LGA/BOS are markets that they'd need to be willing to make a multi-year commitment to and they'd need to do heavy marketing to corporate accounts. They'd have to accept pretty heavy losses in the short to medium term to get the trust of the business flyers -- FL's track record of dropping routes quickly does not help them. They'd need to offer a minimum of 4 daily PIT-LGA (which requires slots) and 3 daily PIT-BOS round-trips to be remotely competitive.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 53):
Well to be honest, B6 does not do a whole lot of advertising in the Boston area.

And to be honest, that's not true. I've seen plenty of JetBlue ads on the T (the subway) as well as in the Boston Metro. I've also seen JetBlue TV ads in the Boston market. Then again, Boston is a market in which they had committed to growth.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 61):
Why they did not choose to do that in Nashville is, I think, a valid question.

We don't know that they didn't. We don't know how jetBlue chose to advertise in BNA other than what a handful of people exposure (or lack of) was to jetBlue ads. However, it is reasonable to assume they didn't do much different in BNA than other markets.
a.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 63):
We don't know how jetBlue chose to advertise in BNA other than what a handful of people exposure (or lack of) was to jetBlue ads.

But that's the key to effective advertising. Saying that you've reached 90% of a given population with your ads is a lot different from impacting 90% of a population.

Let me give you a concrete example. As you probably know, McDonalds has been running the "I'm lovin it" campaign in a variety of media for a few years now. McDonalds' ad agency could present them with a statistic like 90% of the US population has seen your ad. Or, the agency could give them a number like 90% of the US population can hum the jingle that goes along with the ad. I think the latter number is more persuasive. The problem is that it's hard to measure.

I'm trained in two empirical fields, so I love numbers. But advertising success is one of the few places where anecdotes, especially from people who I would imagine were looking for B6 ads, might actually tell us more.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
EMBQA
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:56 pm

I was looking to buy a ticket on B6 from BNA for a trip up north. My only option was the 0600 flight and was priced more then a DAL flight that left at 11am and arrived at the nearly the same time. No thanks, I'll sleep in and pay less.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
flyCMH
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:26 pm

Ironically, I was in what will be jetBlue's newest destination, St. Maarten, when the news was announced.

While incredibly disheartening, jetBlue's arrival into Columbus couldn't have come at a worse time. I think the problem was 5-fold:

Chronic delays and cancelations at JFK:

The effects of JFK's chronic congestion hit CMH from the start. The Valentine's Day shut down occurred at a critical time when the airline was trying to build up a customer base in Columbus and the resulting PR nightmare was severely detrimental to their name in the local market.

Construction at jetBlue's JFK hub:

People flying jetBlue from Columbus have had to deal with transferring through jetBlue's temporary facilities at Terminal 6 for the past year, which again also negatively impacted jetBlue's image locally and ability to garner strong local support.


Competition:

With over a dozen flights to LGA alone, Columbus already had, and will still have, decent service to the New York area. What initially attracted jetBlue was the yields historically present between CMH and NYC. Of course, as the competition matched jetBlue's fares, the yields never panned out for B6, and despite good loads, their resources could be far better applied elsewhere.

Outsourcing to DGS:

JetBlue's below-wing duties were performed by Delta Global Services in CMH. I witnessed many times where bags were severely delayed in getting to the carousel, which should not happen in an airport the size of Port Columbus. I think serving jetBlue took a back seat in favor of the larger operations supported by DGS, mainly Skybus and Delta.

Skybus:

While not a direct competitor per se, Skybus' presence was likely the nail in the coffin for B6 in CMH. Columbus likely could have benefited from jetBlue's decision to allocate resources to overflying their delay-prone JFK operations by servicing other large jetBlue stations such as Ft. Lauderdale, Boston (multiple times a day), and Orlando nonstop. However, with Skybus providing a glut of insanely low seats to Boston (through Portsmouth), Ft. Lauderdale, and Oakland, jetBlue had no where to go.

I do wish there was a way to keep jetBlue in Columbus. I have enjoyed seeing those cleverly named E90s in Columbus over the past year. Condolences and the best of luck to all the employees affected in CMH as well as BNA.
 
B752OS
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:43 pm

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 66):
Skybus:

While not a direct competitor per se, Skybus' presence was likely the nail in the coffin for B6 in CMH. Columbus likely could have benefited from jetBlue's decision to allocate resources to overflying their delay-prone JFK operations by servicing other large jetBlue stations such as Ft. Lauderdale, Boston (multiple times a day), and Orlando nonstop. However, with Skybus providing a glut of insanely low seats to Boston (through Portsmouth), Ft. Lauderdale, and Oakland, jetBlue had no where to go.

I do wish there was a way to keep jetBlue in Columbus. I have enjoyed seeing those cleverly named E90s in Columbus over the past year. Condolences and the best of luck to all the employees affected in CMH as well as BNA.

Portsmouth, NH is not a viable alternative to BOS for pax. Skybus on their website lists Boston as one of their cities, but once you click on Boston on their map, it comes up as Portsmouth, NH. No one in the Boston area knows that Portsmouth has an airport. When people think of Portmouth, they think of Water Country. At least WN makes sure to say the Boston area and has PVD and MHT listed and the Miami area and has PBI and FLL listed.

My thoughts are that the only markets that B6 really could have expanded on from CMH were to Florida and try and pick up the tourists. With WN already serving MCO and TPA, FLL is the last station to go after and I don't believe that CMH is large enough market to support 3 carriers with non-stop flights down to Florida.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 52):
Southwest IS their major airline and they are a hub for Southwest..

Uh, what? BNA isn't a hub for WN, but it may be a focus city for WN. WN doesn't do the hub business model, they do the point-to-point business model. Have you read Herb's book yet???
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 68):
but it may be a focus city for WN. WN doesn't do the hub business model,

I have to disagree with you here. WN very much does Hub operations at BWI, MDW, LAS, PHX, BNA, DAL and some more I could name.
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flyCMH
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 67):
Portsmouth, NH is not a viable alternative to BOS for pax.

Let's not start that here.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 67):
My thoughts are that the only markets that B6 really could have expanded on from CMH were to Florida and try and pick up the tourists.

I agree, as flyinryan99 also mentioned. I think B6 could have easily done 3x JFK, 2x BOS, 2x FLL, 1x MCO...if not for a certain other carrier (Skybus).

Quoting B752OS (Reply 67):
FLL is the last station to go after and I don't believe that CMH is large enough market to support 3 carriers with non-stop flights down to Florida.

The West Palm Beach-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami area is underserved, not counting Skybus. The problem is the yields don't justify sending a mainline jet with first class seats to this area, and demand varies widely depending on the season, so an all-coach mainline jet is overkill. So we're stuck with weight-restricted ERJs flying down to Southeastern Florida, again, not counting Skybus.
 
B752OS
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 70):
I agree, as flyinryan99 also mentioned. I think B6 could have easily done 3x JFK, 2x BOS, 2x FLL, 1x MCO...if not for a certain other carrier (Skybus).

I'll dissagree that Skybus is the reason and point to WN. WN has 4 x daily flights to MCO and 4 x daily to TPA which esaily covers the market between CMH and those two. As far as South Florida is concerned, there are 520 daily pax to the 3 airports, MIA, FLL, and PBI and I believe those numbers are for the Fall, I could be wrong though. In any event, those are not large numbers, especially when you consder that is combining 3 airports, of which, only 1, FLL is served by all 3 carriers, Skybus, B6 and WN. Also don't forget, AA has 2 x MIA-CMH flights. I am surprised that WN has not started CMH-FLL.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 71):
In any event, those are not large numbers,

Actually, 520 is a large number. That consitutes what an airline would consider a "large O&D" route, though not a "busy O&D" route.
a.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 69):

According to Herb's book, they do not consider them as hubs. They are just large stations to WN and/or focus cities. WN flies point to point. But they are not 'hub' stations. I bet OPNLGuy would back me up on this.

And yes, I have read Herb's book.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 68):
WN doesn't do the hub business model, they do the point-to-point business model.

Why, then, do they fly BNA-BHM? Certainly not for the (nonexistent) local traffic (or they'd be flying around with a ~15% load factor).

If WN doesn't have hubs, then AA doesn't either. After all, AA doesn't bank.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 74):

Read Herb's book. It will tell you exactly why.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 74):
Why, then, do they fly BNA-BHM? Certainly not for the (nonexistent) local traffic (or they'd be flying around with a ~15% load factor).

You are correct in that they aren't flying BNA-BHM to make money on that route alone. Fare Measure puts the local O & D at 37 pax. There used to 4x daily on this route, now it is 2x daily. Currently both flights touch Dallas Love in both directions (nonstop to/from BHM). So that should be obvious why it the route is being flown today. I didn't take time to look up all flights, but I do know the BHM-BNA departures continue on to BWI and MCI respectively. Most likely, for the particular time of day, the BWI flight from BHM doesn't have sufficient loads, so it gets routed through BNA to pick up pax. BHM has no MCI service, so that one seems self explanatory. I know in the past, the flights could have been considered "tag-on" flights, allowing pax in BHM to have direct flights to cities they did not have nonstop. My guess is this route goes away when DAL opens up and BNA gets n/s flights.

Whether you like it or not AirframeAs is correct in that WN does not consider their focus cities hubs. I think the definition of hub comes into play here. For most airlines, a true hub is one where for example; 50-60 flights arrive within a 45 minute time frame, mix pax, and all depart. Followed by another identical wave shortly thereafter. WN does not do this, which is why they don't call their cities hubs. I think the closest analogy you could get to calling cities such as PHX, BWI, MDW for Southwest would be "rolling hub" where flights are much more spaced out in arriving and departing. Yes of course they have connecting service, but nothing along the lines of DL in ATL or AA at DFW. They don't have banks of flights in cities like other true hub carriers. I've read Herb's book. But my brother is also a captain for WN, so I have a little insight into their ops. "Hub" is a four letter word at corporate in Dallas.
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:02 pm

I am based in BNA and at least from my 8 years of flying in and out of BNA, if WN isnt' a hub carrier I don't know what is. You can connect all day long in banks of flights that all arrive within the same hour. Without connecting flights many of the WN planes going out of here would be 75% empty. WN is the best thing that ever happened to BNA that is for sure. All AA did was leave a lot of unused gate space that is still sitting idle today.
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Lexy
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 77):
Without connecting flights many of the WN planes going out of here would be 75% empty. WN is the best thing that ever happened to BNA that is for sure.

Ouch! I would say that 75% is a pretty big stretch. BNA generates it's own O&D regardless of WN's presence here or not. Why else do the legacies here continue to do well from here? WN is probably the best thing to happen to BNA SINCE AA decided to hub it out. Unfortunatly, we all see what happened with AA after a while.....Miami.

But as far as attracting other carriers/service/routes etc., I think WN hurts our chances exponentially. That's a whole other topic though.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 76):
Whether you like it or not AirframeAs is correct in that WN does not consider their focus cities hubs.

I know WN doesn't consider them hubs. But if AA didn't consider DFW a hub, would we say it wasn't a hub? The point is pedantic.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):
I know WN doesn't consider them hubs. But if AA didn't consider DFW a hub, would we say it wasn't a hub? The point is pedantic.

I agree, so why is it still being discussed? It has nothing to do with the threat title anyway.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:55 am

My quibble is not with your assertion that WN does not consider them hubs. WN does not consider its large stations hubs. No argument from me there.

My problem is with the argument that WN's business model is point to point. It certainly is not. WN relies on connecting traffic to fill flights. That's more true on some flights than on others, but there is no debate that it's true.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
But that's the key to effective advertising. Saying that you've reached 90% of a given population with your ads is a lot different from impacting 90% of a population.

Here's another angle. You all are assuming B6 opened the route to catch the BNA based travellers headed to NYC. And in that respect advertising during Primetime only goes so far. You need to use your sales force to go out and develop relationships with the business communities in New York and Nashville. A handful of flights a day out to JFK isn't going to woo a large number of BNA passengers who can fly other airlines.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 60):

I guess it depends on what industry you are in, but consultants billing by the hour typically do not waste time on a train from JFK when they are billing at 325 or more an hour.

Consultants who bill at $325 an hour do not like to spend 2.5 hours sitting in rush-hour traffic on the way into midtown when they can take a 35 minute train ride. My aunt is a Senior Exec. at a consulting firm and she utilizes public transport when she travels to DCA, SYD, LGW/LHR, SFO, etc.
 
billreid
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 66):
Skybus:

While not a direct competitor per se, Skybus' presence was likely the nail in the coffin for B6 in CMH. Columbus likely could have benefited from jetBlue's decision to allocate resources to overflying their delay-prone JFK operations by servicing other large jetBlue stations such as Ft. Lauderdale, Boston (multiple times a day), and Orlando nonstop. However, with Skybus providing a glut of insanely low seats to Boston (through Portsmouth), Ft. Lauderdale, and Oakland, jetBlue had no where to go.

Very good post. DL planner mentioned in a discussion over lunch that they have great concerns about the lowering of expectations and yields. They are concerned the CMH market will be damaged by lowering expectations to insanlely low levels by SX.

I am fearful that if SX futher floods the market with new destinations other airlines will draw down service for the same reasons B6 did. A halo effect resulting from irrational pricing may damage CMH yield and revenues beyond repair.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
flyCMH
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 83):
I am fearful that if SX futher floods the market with new destinations other airlines will draw down service for the same reasons B6 did. A halo effect resulting from irrational pricing may damage CMH yield and revenues beyond repair.

That's what worries me most.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 83):
Very good post. DL planner mentioned in a discussion over lunch that they have great concerns about the lowering of expectations and yields. They are concerned the CMH market will be damaged by lowering expectations to insanlely low levels by SX.

Of course DL doesn't like it they can't compete.

Your arguments about "draw down" ( i.e reduction of frequencies and/or downsizing aircraft due to poor LF's) still have not been substanciated for any carrier in CMH, and all the airport press releases show record passenger numbers.

I just had a friend take a last minute flight to FLL on SX and the one way fare was $160, this has been the case even with SAN and BLI. current prices to these "losing cities" are no less than 285 dollars for < 3 day purchases with BLI having an average one way fare of 140 dollars and SAN having a 120 one way average the entire month of November.




B6 left CMH and BNA because they had better opportunity elsewhere. That's business, and to you your own line "Business is about making money".
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
billreid
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 85):
Of course DL doesn't like it they can't compete.

Are you presuming that DL's concerns are not valid?
It is quite common for airlines to be either negatively or positively impacted by a halo effect from other airline service.
In the case of SX and CMH a negative halo effect may have helped the B6 decision. Business is business, but sometimes it is not good for the consumer or the airport when an airline floods the market with low-end pricing. The halo effect flows into other cities not even served by the low-cost carrier.

I would be very worried that SX may be upsetting the CMH apple-cart.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:45 pm

M

Quoting BillReid (Reply 86):
Are you presuming that DL's concerns are not valid?

I am saying that DL should worry about their own busines. When you can actualy provide some facts why don't you post those.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 86):
I would be very worried that SX may be upsetting the CMH apple-cart.

I bet when Wendy's came out with their 99 cent value meal you worried about Burger King and McDonald's and how they would cope also.

Seriously, this is competition, and consumer demand drives it, DL will do what they need to do (whatever that might be)
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
billreid
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:55 pm

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 84):
B6 left CMH and BNA because they had better opportunity elsewhere. That's business, and to you your own line "Business is about making money".

Not entirely true. B6 left because the business was not sustainable from a stand-alone profit perspective. An airline needs to have a core business and some citypairs outperform others. In B6's case their MO remains withdrawing from airports with negative cash flow.

The airline industry is by no means a simple business. There are about 2.0 billion people worlwide who think this is a simple business they could do a better job at. It includes just about everyone. The reality is nothing in this industry is as easy as it appears to be. If it was, we wouldn't have had all the failures we have had.
We need to consider all the aspects of a very interactive model that most of us over simplify.
The impact of SX pricing strategy on other airlines at CMH is far to complex to be answered in a short choppy statements on a.net. Why B6 is gone is also highly complex with lots of people guessing, only their hairdresser really knows...

The flip side of this is its lots of fun.
Lets apply Occams Razor when possible though.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 87):
I am saying that DL should worry about their own busines. When you can actualy provide some facts why don't you post those.

OK some facts.

Fact 1. I had lunch with a member of DL planning and the person said "We are somewhat concerned with impact on consumer expectations SX may have, we will wait and see and monitor the impact on yield and consumer expectations."

Fact 2. Check Spelling is in the upper left side of the edit box.

Fact 3. There is a "Please check your spelling" line just above the "preview the post" button.

Fact 4. Some people tend to write on a.net threads without checking spelling or reviewing their posts before clicking.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 88):
Not entirely true. B6 left because the business was not sustainable from a stand-alone profit perspective

That is certainly a fair assumption.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 88):
The reality is nothing in this industry is as easy as it appears to be.

No industry on the planet is as simple as it appears. We agree there as well.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 88):
The impact of SX pricing strategy on other airlines at CMH is far to complex to be answered in a short choppy statements on a.net

Once again, agreed. Any armchair CEO on Anet would be in for a rude awakening if they had to deal with the myriad details of running a large business.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
JetBlueJackets
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 66):
Skybus:

A B6 pilot said he was jumpseating while Dave Barger was flying shortly after the announcement....he said Barger was concerned with Skybus and did not want to get into a price war....sounds like B6 just got scared
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting JetBlueJackets (Reply 93):

A B6 pilot said he was jumpseating while Dave Barger was flying shortly after the announcement....he said Barger was concerned with Skybus and did not want to get into a price war....sounds like B6 just got scared

Yeah, because we all know how airlines get into price wars in markets they don't directly compete.

I love how Skybus boasters love to try to play up a connection between JetBlue leaving and Skybus, as if Skybus kicked them out even though the station had been an under performer since it launched. And let's just say Skybus was largely responsible for jetBlue leaving. In a year, when CMH is without Skybus and jetBlue, Columbus residents lose.
a.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:03 am

Wowe..B6 cutting cities, nothing sounds better to me!
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting JetBlueJackets (Reply 93):
concerned with Skybus and did not want to get into a price war....sounds like B6 just got scared

There is a difference, however subtle, between "concerned" and "scared". JetBlue should be "concerned" about their competition. It's up to them, though, whether they should be "scared".

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 95):
Wowe..B6 cutting cities, nothing sounds better to me!

Wow. What a surprising comment.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 96):
There is a difference, however subtle, between "concerned" and "scared". JetBlue should be "concerned" about their competition. It's up to them, though, whether they should be "scared".

Kinda like the old US Airways responding to WN's entry in PHL? *They're coming to KILL US!"
 
JetBlueJackets
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 94):
Yeah, because we all know how airlines get into price wars in markets they don't directly compete

from what I have heard CMH for us was marginal the whole time...we had a decent number pf people flying us to BUR/LGB, FLL, SAN and RIC (oddly enough)...Losing these people to SX (i worked the station so I KNOW it was drastic drop off) didn't help the cause

So we may not have competed on the same ROUTES, we competed for the same PEOPLE, and eventually lost out
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 97):
Kinda like the old US Airways responding to WN's entry in PHL? *They're coming to KILL US!"

Oh man, and to this day I find that to be supremely comical!  laughing 

Quoting ScottB (Reply 62):
Well, they could be successful, but they probably wouldn't be. PIT-LGA/BOS are markets that they'd need to be willing to make a multi-year commitment to and they'd need to do heavy marketing to corporate accounts. They'd have to accept pretty heavy losses in the short to medium term to get the trust of the business flyers -- FL's track record of dropping routes quickly does not help them. They'd need to offer a minimum of 4 daily PIT-LGA (which requires slots) and 3 daily PIT-BOS round-trips to be remotely competitive.

Right out of the gate, I doubt they'd be a success either, if they were to do this like right now anyway. I still think that B6 is keeping them in check, but if they were to pull PIT, then I could see those routes be wide open for FL. Right now, FL is one of the beneficiaries of PIT travelers. Traffic for August jumpted by over 50% from last year's traffic levels, and climbed another 32% for September.

Am I saying I want B6 out of PIT to allow for additional growth by FL? Absolutely not. Talking about cutting off your nose to spite your face. The PIT market is trying to restructure itself in the wake of the US pulldown. US will still maintain several daily frequencies on BOS and LGA, but they'll mostly, if not all be RJ flights. There is no LCC competition directly on LGA.

Look at WN when they launched PIT-PHL service in 2005. They launched with 4 daily flights, and that was against sevral daily US mainline flights, which I think numbered 6 or 7 then IIRC. They had more mainline flights than the 4 737s WN was sending into PHL, but that route was still a huge success. Are AA and US equipment really that more competitive on PIT-LGA?

Yet, I realize I just posted a tangent to the B6 thread  silly  I will say this again... I would still like B6 to remain in the Steel Town. The more, the merrier.  Smile

It's a shame that CMH and BNA were cut, but I guess that's the way the airline industry works...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
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RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 97):
It's a shame that CMH and BNA were cut, but I guess that's the way the airline industry works...

A friend of mine who works for DL at BNA walked down to the JetBlue gate the other day, post pull out announcement. He said at 15 minutes prior to departure for the mid-day flight, there were 11 people at the gate. The customers are already bailing on them, so it's rather obvious they didn't have much of a customer base here to begin with. He indicated that DL's 3 CRJ's continually go out full, and reiterated the rumor one of the flights may see a CR7 or E70 seen. Would be nice, especially in light of what will probably be slot restrictions next summer.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Officially Official: JetBlue Cuts CMH, BNA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 98):
A friend of mine who works for DL at BNA walked down to the JetBlue gate the other day, post pull out announcement. He said at 15 minutes prior to departure for the mid-day flight, there were 11 people at the gate. The customers are already bailing on them, so it's rather obvious they didn't have much of a customer base here to begin with. He indicated that DL's 3 CRJ's continually go out full, and reiterated the rumor one of the flights may see a CR7 or E70 seen. Would be nice, especially in light of what will probably be slot restrictions next summer.

Just one question, although I am sure it's posted somewhere in this thread, but what was B6 charging for CMH-JFK? If they had fares similar to those in PIT, then yes, I would have to say they had no customer base at all. Although, B6 had to lower their fares to unprofitable levels to get their LFs up at the expense of their profitable yields. Before, LFs were at 40% or below, but now the planes are filling up. It now looks like B6 is learning from the whole low-yields bit and is slowly increasing their fares to JFK. I believe the fare range is now $80-100 or so to boot.

Hopefully things will get better for CMH tho.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.

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