I understand there is another thread full of speculation, but now that it's official, some people might not dig through it all. jetBlue is ending service to Columbus and Nashville on 6 January 2008. Service to Nashville launched in August 2006, and service to Columbus launched in October 2006:

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...bcf402fd80c710619f6a709afb13fa.htm

Shame for CMH... They had a reputation of always be delayed here, I'm not sure if that scared the customers away...

No surprise at all. CMH had some of the lowest yields at $.23 with only 398 daily passengers bound for JFK, and 312 bound for BOS. BNA is also no suprise with yields at $.18 and 339 destined for JFK daily, and $.24 yields with only 159 destined for BOS.

There are tons of other passenger and yield numbers available here:
http://paxdata.airlineempires.net

Can B6 fix the Midwest, or are they stuck flying up and down the east coast, and low yield long-haul?

With Skybus now in the picture at CMH, this is no big shock to me. There isnt enough demand for the two to survive a CMH operation.

Apparently we're supposed to continue conversation over here... a few points from the previous thread

Quoting Richierich (Reply 119): And isn't BNA one of the cities they are closing?

Yes; my post should have read that CLT, RDU, and JAX all seem to be working.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 119): Those cities you mentioned are north-south routes.

So why can't CMH and BNA work in the same way?

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 123): Plus, B6 never has done much in the way of advertising their presence here. IMO, I think they thought they could build a following based on word-of-mouth.

That's interesting, as B6 definitely advertises a fair bit in Charlotte. I wonder why they didn't advertise similarly in Nashville.

This is definitely not surprising, though I was expecting to see PIT go before CMH. BNA was a dog from the start...it was time for the route to go. CMH started off slowly, then did really well over the spring/summer, but it fell hard once late August set in - it fell harder than PIT, actually.

Both CMH and BNA have other LCC's with major presences - WN at both and SX at CMH. I guess JetBlue doesn't want to be at airports where opportunity to expand is limited, as well as airports that have shown that they are slow to mature. I guess it makes sense.

JetBluefan1

Somehow my other post snuck in before it was locked here's what I posted on the other thread:

Quote: SkyyMaster (Reply 111): Given the only common route B6 and SX flew from CMH was "Boston", I really doubt the 'Bus had anything to do with B6 departure.

Ya know...after thinking about it for a while, maybe it had a small indirect impact on them pulling out. It had been mentioned back before Skybus started up that jetBlue was looking at starting CMH-FLL. I'm not sure what they may have been thinking but they could've transitioned to 3x JFK, 2x BOS, 1x or 2x FLL. But, with Skybus starting CMH-FLL, that may have killed any attempt at jetBlue trying to make CMH a money making station by adding FLL. Just my opinion.

Sad as I would like to have had a chance to fly them.

This is sad news for CMH. I remember how hard they pushed for B6 to begin service. At least this won't be a major blow to CMH.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 9): This is definitely not surprising, though I was expecting to see PIT go before CMH.

Well, I can see PIT being kept on for a bit longer to see how things shake out with US Airways scaling back its PIT presence even further and reducing capacity to both BOS and LGA.

Quoting Miller22 (Reply 5): There are tons of other passenger and yield numbers available here: http://paxdata.airlineempires.net

Is that real data, or the data from their corny little game?


Nevermind, I answered it myself after further review. Sorry folks!

[Edited 2007-10-23 14:59:29]

Nevermind I answered my own question, and since this site is still fubar I couldn't edit my last post. So disregard my last post...

Sucks for CMH, but I wouldn't be surprised if they lost their BDL flights, and other cities as well as time goes on with Skybus ruining yields. The whole "be careful what you wish for" routine.

SX will probably gloat and say that they were responsible for B6's exit out of CMH, but the two carriers are going after two different market segments. SX targets the once-a-year flyer who books the lowest fare no matter what, only to be nickel-and-dimed the whole way there. B6 is low-cost, but not low-quality.

I think part of the reason CMH did not do well was that to get any other place in the JetBlue system from CMH you had to change planes in JFK. Who really wants to do that to go to the west coast unless the price was so terrific that it outweighed everything else.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 15): The whole "be careful what you wish for" routine.

Absolutely....just ask BNA with AA, RDU with AA, SJC with AA

Lowball a carrier in...have them chase the other carriers out...and watch them fold their tent and leave forcing you to struggle for years to replace the service.

I'm not looking for credibility. But I did state an opinion, mine. And whether anyone here likes that or not, it's still my opinion and I am entitled to that right or wrong in your eyes. My apology if anyone on here thinks that was a "highschool" remark (in the closed thread), but it's my opinion.

I just think B6 bolting out of here is a mistake for them IN THE LONG RUN. Specifically cause they did nothing to stimulate the market here and that hurts in a market that is a focus city for a major LCC. They shot themselves in the foot IMO.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 9): BNA was a dog from the start

Whatever. Those flights were fully booked for three or more months solid. How can you say that???? They created demand with powerful pricing when they started. Instead of slowly inching the fares up to gain more yield, they left one of their BNA destined planes sitting on the damn tarmac for hours on end. Then scream and cry they make no money from here a year later. That's no way to introduce new pax to your service partner. Give me a break!

Quoting Lexy (Reply 19): I just think B6 bolting out of here is a mistake for them IN THE LONG RUN. Specifically cause they did nothing to stimulate the market here and that hurts in a market that is a focus city for a major LCC. They shot themselves in the foot IMO.

Gotta agree. They could've had Delta by the cajones on the JFK route. Bigger, more comfortable aircraft. While I'm sure a certain % of DL's pax (at least the mid-day flight) were international connections, the other two CRJ flights could have/should have easily been easily trumped by the E90's. As I mentioned in the other thread, I was surprised at the number of people I know who travel and never heard of them or that they flew here. Isn't that the same gate Indy Air used? If so and I were a new airline looking at BNA, I'd ask to be given any gate but that one, it seems jinxed....(JUST KIDDING, no one go off on a tangent!!!).

Quoting Miller22 (Reply 5): No surprise at all. CMH had some of the lowest yields at $.23 with only 398 daily passengers bound for JFK, and 312 bound for BOS. BNA is also no suprise with yields at $.18 and 339 destined for JFK daily, and $.24 yields with only 159 destined for BOS.

Wow... those be some... REALLY bad yields!!! I do wonder how they compare to yields at PIT. I know PIT yields are in the basement, but what would one call that, the PARKING garage??

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13): Well, I can see PIT being kept on for a bit longer to see how things shake out with US Airways scaling back its PIT presence even further and reducing capacity to both BOS and LGA.

US is actually increasing its daily frequencies from 6 to 8 into LGA, according to the new schedule come January... I'm not sure about BOS. Even at that, B6 isn't having a hard time filling their planes. They need to tweak their fares to boost yields...

I guess the question to pax should be, "would you rather spend 80-100 bucks each way to BOS and JFK, or caugh up 480 bucks to BOS or New York courtesy of US, DL, or AA?"

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 21): Isn't that the same gate Indy Air used?

It most certainly is.

I flew the BNA-JFK run last January to try them out for the first time. BNA-JFK-HOU. Excellent flight but it was definately not full - don't know if thats indicative of the loads here at BNA or not. JFK-HOU has long since been downgraded to a E190 from the 320 -- How is that route doing with TZ leaving the market?

Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 4): I think it has more to do with population concentrations and travel patterns.

Not entirely. Red state people fly to Florida too. But B6 only adds blue state routes.

Quoting TIA (Reply 6): This has to be up there in terms of most idiotic posts.

Thanks for your measured reply.

You do know who is a major day one investor in jet blue, don't you? George Soros. 10% stake holder. A lot of people aren't aware of this. Also a major investor in Progressive auto insurance, BTW. Funny that, the name Progressive and the name JetBlue (after all the other names they tried)...

At first, I thought it was only because it was a start-up from NYC, but the more B6 grew and continued to overfly/ignore red state/cities, the more it seemed deliberate. Take a look at MCO. They ignore traffic from every red area despite high demand. Look at adding Austin both to JFK and BOS, but ignoring DFW (and claiming the only way they'd fly to dallas is if they could do it at Love). They say it's because they don't want to compete with AA. Which doesn't seem to concern them about AUS. Flying to the "bluer" area of houston (eventually) and avoiding IAH, the north of the city where people are far "redder".

The only city you'd consider conservative that they really focus on at all is Salt Lake. And they do fly to Raleigh, so that's something. And Pittsburgh's pretty "purple."

When JetBlue was sponsoring the ultra-left Kos convention, and then backed down, there were plenty of left wingers who pulled their support for JetBlue for caving to the right pledging to "never fly them again" and "cut up their B6 american express card" and all the malarky. I thought that was pretty funny, since it's just supposed to be an airline.

And of course, this is all tongue in cheek. Taking it seriously is not my intention. It's just one of those strange coincidences, those "things that make you go hmmm..." So some people need to take a chill pill...  

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20): And they do fly to Raleigh

Raleigh is purple
Cary is red
Chapel Hill is blue
Durham is blue

Overall, RDU metro is lavender

Quoting Lexy (Reply 15): Whatever. Those flights were fully booked for three or more months solid. How can you say that????

I have studied JetBlue and its routes on a daily basis since its first year of service. Trust me - I know if a route has high loads or not.

Over the summer, BNA did have some pretty nice loads, but certainly not throughout the entire year. BNA has always had a lower LF than the systemwide LF, and the yields were pretty tragic as well. This pull-out further proves it.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 19): JFK-HOU has long since been downgraded to a E190 from the 320 -- How is that route doing with TZ leaving the market?

JFK-HOU is doing much better - probably because of TZ leaving the market as well as the change to an E190. Flights are fuller and yields are much, much improved. Definitely a 180 degree turn in that market, as well as in JAX.

JetBluefan1

This is a sad day for CMH! Now what will DL do? Keep their flights?

Quoting Floorrunner (Reply 12): I think part of the reason CMH did not do well was that to get any other place in the JetBlue system from CMH you had to change planes in JFK. Who really wants to do that to go to the west coast unless the price was so terrific that it outweighed everything else.

  

I mentioned this in the previous thread, but I think you're spot on. Unless you're strictly flying CMH to New England, B6 really didn't offer any convenience to fly anywhere else.

If you want to fly to Florida or the Caribbean, why fly 700 miles northeast before going south? If you want to fly west coast from CMH...why go anywhere to the east - especially when WN can connect you in MDW, LAS or PHX depending on where you're going.

Their service would've been great to try. Unfortunately, their prices aren't good enough to put up with the inconvenience of flying out of the way to busy, delayed NYC...just like you said. If they could've gotten one westwardly flight (from either station)...things could've been much different.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 22): Over the summer, BNA did have some pretty nice loads, but certainly not throughout the entire year. BNA has always had a lower LF than the systemwide LF, and the yields were pretty tragic as well. This pull-out further proves it.

I made maybe 10 r/t's BNA-JFK-BNA since they arrived. Averaged out, I would say the LF's were in the low 60's or high 50's. The late night return to BNA I've seen as few as ten pax on board. Meanwhile, my pal at DL says they are packing all three of their CRJ's to/from JFK. The BNA website has already taken JetBlue off the terminal map although it's still listed as serving. It certainly didn't take MNAA long to separate themselves from the airline. Given the flights don't end until January, those LF's are going to be VERY light now, especially for last minute buyers. Regardless, they are leaving, so I guess not much else can be said.

Quoting Johnyv (Reply 23): This is a sad day for CMH! Now what will DL do? Keep their flights?

Well, there goes one of my options to ever fly them... I have to admit as much as I want to try B6, they just never fly where I want... (DFW, CMH, CLE, YYZ, IND, BNA, AUS) granted they have flown to two of the cities, I just can't give up the schedule other carriers offer... sad to say, but some day I will try B6

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 16):

the problem is for business travelers, JFK is just not convienent for doing business.

Quoting Johnyv (Reply 23): This is a sad day for CMH! Now what will DL do? Keep their flights?

CMH still has AA non-stops to BOS plus direct WN flights and SX.

also to LGA there is still AA, DL and CO non-stops.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 27): CMH still has AA non-stops to BOS plus direct WN flights and SX. also to LGA there is still AA, DL and CO non-stops.

CO flies to EWR, but US, AA, DL all fly to LGA multiple times a day...

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5): I guess JetBlue doesn't want to be at airports where opportunity to expand is limited, as well as airports that have shown that they are slow to mature. I guess it makes sense.

I can't speak for CMH, but BNA is growing. I travel through BNA once every two weeks and I can say that Jet Blue was never a "presence" there; as mentioned above it was their own mistake for not doing what it takes to let people know you are there. Yes, LLC's have a presence there but not one is really dominant over the other. WN is growing and have made themselves a "presence" that can compete with AA, DL, etc. Perhaps B6 just didn't do good business.

Hopefully this will lead Eagle to find some extra ERJ capacity to put at least one ERJ on CMH-JFK timed for Europe connections. Given Eagle's recent massive success with doing one-off links between JFK and Northeast/Midwest timed for Europe connections, I think this market - where AA/Eagle have been historically successful, and where Eagle has a huge maintenance base - would be a major success.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 27): the problem is for business travelers, JFK is just not convienent for doing business.

Hasnt this assumption been disproven yet?   

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 28): CO flies to EWR

Yes, EWR is more convienent to the financial district than LGA, and to Mid-town maybe 10 min difference.

Quoting ThirteenRight (Reply 31): Hasnt this assumption been disproven yet?

If you enjoy sitting in an extra 1 to 2 hours of extra traffic to JFK round trip (compared to LGA and EWR) in and out of Midtown then go right ahead.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17): US is actually increasing its daily frequencies from 6 to 8 into LGA, according to the new schedule come January... I'm not sure about BOS.

Yes, but US is cutting 2 mainline round-trips to LGA and adding 4 round-trips on RJ's to get that net increase in two frequencies -- which is likely a slight decrease in capacity. BOS is losing all mainline aircraft to/from PIT, so there's a pretty significant drop in capacity since the number of frequencies stays flat.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 32): If you enjoy sitting in an extra 1 to 2 hours of extra traffic to JFK round trip (compared to LGA and EWR) in and out of Midtown then go right ahead.

LGA is the closest airport to Manhattan,not EWR...EWR and JFK are the same highway distance from Midtown...the last time I checked the Holland Tunnel and NJ Turnpike were full of backups as well...please stop with generalizations...theres huge traffic tie ups all over the NYC metro area...including the LIE out to ISP...

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 34): LGA is the closest airport to Manhattan,not EWR

EWR is the same or faster to and from Lower Manhatten during rush hour than LGA. As someone who worked in the financial district for a long perod of time, EWR was just as fast or faster to get to than LGA.

I also worked in Jersey City and by the GWB and EWR is 20-30 minutes closer than JFK or more.


ISP shoudn't ever be used for Manhatten unless you're on vacation and have nowhere to be. Lat time I took the train from Ronkonkama to the city it was about an hour. The last time I drove it it was almost 2 hours..

Quoting Windstepper (Reply 29): Perhaps B6 just didn't do good business

In the story in today's issue of The Tennessean about this, a JetBlue spokesperson was quoted as saying their LF's were around 70%, obviously not good enough in B6's eyes. The consensus from various travel agencies in Nashville is we may see a slight spike in fares, but long term, JetBlue's departure would not have any significant, if any impact on the airport. Given NYC is BNA's number one O & D market, they should have been able to make it work. Apparently the "experience" was not good enough to woo people away from AA, CO, and DL.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 33): Yes, but US is cutting 2 mainline round-trips to LGA and adding 4 round-trips on RJ's to get that net increase in two frequencies -- which is likely a slight decrease in capacity. BOS is losing all mainline aircraft to/from PIT, so there's a pretty significant drop in capacity since the number of frequencies stays flat.

Ah, I see your point. I guess this may seem presumptuous, but if FL wanted to, do you think they'd be successful this go around if they were to launch PIT-LGA or BOS? (I know they never served BOS from PIT.) That is, if B6 were to pull out, which I doubt will happen. It's probably a dumb question to ask, but...

I guess when you think about it, things should be easier for B6, especially to BOS. E90s vs. RJs. I don't know about the rest of the US pax, but that E90 with "jetBlue" written on it looks a lot more enticing than a cramped RJ...

Quoting ThirteenRight (Reply 31): Hasnt this assumption been disproven yet?

Lord knows I've tried...I'll try one more time...

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 32): If you enjoy sitting in an extra 1 to 2 hours of extra traffic to JFK round trip (compared to LGA and EWR) in and out of Midtown then go right ahead.

Airtrain to Jamaica, LIRR to Penn Station - just as fast as a cab from LGA during the day, more convenient than Airtrain/NJTransit from EWR because all LIRR trains that pass through Jamaica stop there, as opposed to relatively few NJT trains at the EWR station. (In theory you can also use Amtrak, but it's pricey.)

I've gone from my old office in Midtown (Rockefeller Center) to the JetBlue counter in under an hour, at 4:30 in the afternoon on a Friday. A cab to LGA would take longer, as would any combination of the subway and the M60 bus. The LIRR/Airtrain combo to JFK is also as fast as or faster than the NJT/monorail combo to EWR from Penn Station, unless your timing on the NJT at Penn is perfect - even during peak times there are waits of up to 25 minutes at Penn for a NJT train that stops at EWR. (In hindsight, PANYNJ blew it badly with that - they should have never built that stupid, slow monorail and build a full-gauge train like JFK Airtrain all the way to Newark Penn. Or taken PATH all the way to EWR.) Even the bus from Port Authority to EWR is going to be just as fast or faster than a bus to LGA from Grand Central.

Yes, if you have a lot of baggage and must to take a cab, LGA is always going to be faster and cheaper than JFK or EWR, although late at night the difference between JFK and LGA to Manhattan can be as little as 10 minutes. But on public transportation, JFK and EWR are both much more convenient than LGA.

Now as for the B6 pullouts, there is some sense to them if the yields weren't good. Both would have limited opportunity for B6 to expand to Florida, although B6 could have put up more of a "fly us to the main airport, or fly those other guys to..." fight out of CMH. BNA-Florida would mean direct combat with Southwest, as would BNA-Texas. And unless creation of a middle-of-the-country hub was imminently going to offer some connections to the West, there's just nowhere else to go, really.

I wonder if this represents a potential opportunity for FL to compete with Skybus??

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 38): Airtrain to Jamaica, LIRR to Penn Station - just as fast as a cab from LGA during the day,

WHo takes the train when they are going to a business meeting? no one I know.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 38): e gone from my old office in Midtown (Rockefeller Center)

I said from the financial district EWR is closer, read my post. Midtown to LGA is faster

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 16): Isn't that the same gate Indy Air used? If so and I were a new airline looking at BNA, I'd ask to be given any gate but that one, it seems jinxed....(JUST KIDDING, no one go off on a tangent!!!).

Would that be the lucky B13? I know they're down at the end of B...

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 39): I wonder if this represents a potential opportunity for FL to compete with Skybus??

Are you envisioning FL going over to CMH and pulling out of DAY?

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 19): I flew the BNA-JFK run last January to try them out for the first time. BNA-JFK-HOU.

Wow, talk about circuitous. I guess people will fly out of their way--dramatically so--for cheap fares.

Quoting Slider (Reply 43): Wow, talk about circuitous. I guess people will fly out of their way--dramatically so--for cheap fares.

I did it to try Jet Blue out...it wasn't for cheap fares.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41): Would that be the lucky B13? I know they're down at the end of B...

Yep, that's the one.

I notice lost in all the talk of B6 closing these two stations, they are also dropping FLL-OAK-FLL, according to McPaper.

Well, as for them leaving BNA I can understand why when in the year they have been here I have seen ZERO radio ads, ZERO print ads, ZERO TV ads. Even when they first announced their service last year they had zero promotions... zero ads talking about the jetBlue service. Shoot, they way I learned about them coming to Nashville was through friends as B6, not the local media

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 46): Shoot, they way I learned about them coming to Nashville was through friends as B6, not the local media

To be honest, their arrival did get alot of print coverage in the Tennessean. Neeleman was posing in a photo with former Mayor Purcell and there was talk about them using the Embraer facility for mx (and the jobs it would bring). I could swear I heard radio spots early on, Lexy tells me no (?). They rarely had small ads in the paper, but usually stuck in a corner where you had to look for it or miss it. The only real advertising I saw was the billboard on 24/40 near the Fessler's Lane exit. But yes, they really did little to put themselves out in front of the public as a whole.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 47): But yes, they really did little to put themselves out in front of the public as a whole.

They did little different than they did launching other markets. It obviously has worked elsewhere, just not in Nashville. Putting the blame largely on "they didn't do advertising" doesn't really fly. Maybe they could have done some things better, but Nashville itself was part of the problem, it wasn't just jetBlue.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 48): Maybe they could have done some things better, but Nashville itself was part of the problem, it wasn't just jetBlue.

With NYC being the top domestic destination from here, that excuse doesn't fly with me. Sorry, but it just doesn't. This market is a bit different for them (an established LCC focus city) , it was stated that it was on here one year ago when they started the service. Even their presser stated it. They should've approached the whole situation differently.