Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:46 am

As a former UND student, my best wishes goes out to the school down there.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 45):
N327ND was one of UND's newest Seminoles, equipped with an Avadyne glass cockpit. The plane suffered a bird strike yesterday which caused the exhaust stack on one of the engines to be replaced (i dont know which engine). Do not be quick to jump to conclusions however.

The plane was a twin? That explains a lot... especially on a night XC. If they were performing maneuvers a majority would be relatively high altitude for safety. You are probably right... an engine died in the middle of a maneuver at night. What's more is that a poster indicated that a commerical flight in the area was reporting turbulence... probably moderate chop for a CRJ, but a virtual hurricane for a Seminole or similar aircraft combine that with a failed engine at night and it probably would have been impossible to avoid tragedy.

We should remember though, that these fallen pilots died doing what they loved and that is what finally matters... RIP.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
SNCNtry32
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:22 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 35):
Just found out that apparently a Pinnacle CRJ-200 reported HEAVY unexpected turbulance in the same place where they went down just shortly before.

There has been talk about a lot of heavy turbulance in the are the past few days. I have heard some pilots talking about it and an NW Airbus having to decend rapidly to escape it.

Not sure if it was in the [italics]exact[/italics] same area, but it has to be close.

My condolences to all those involved.

[Edited 2007-10-24 21:51:33]
Long Live Memphis!
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 18):
Please justify how you reached this conclusion

Here is how, right from UND itself!

http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero21.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero22.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero51.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero18.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero8.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero12.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero10.htm

While they may not all be fatal accidents, it is a concern. Not even ERU has this many. The university I went to (La Tech) has had 1 accident in 37 years of training pilots. And that resulted in a sucessful emergency landing where the plane was able to be repaired and returned to the skies a few days later.

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 20):
nyways, we should probably get back on topic and hope for the best for the two individuals involved.

I couldn't agree more. This can be discussed further at another time in another thread.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3131
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Avro7 (Reply 48):
doesn't it seem having a 22- year old instructor conducting cross-country flights at night with an inexperienced student seem a little bit risky?

well to tell you the truth i'd probably stand up for UND in this case. Most of the flight instructors here are from UNDs own program which prepares you damn well. And i would say I'd rather have a 22 year old UND instructor than a 30 year old at Johnny's FBO who has been teaching on PPL the past couple months and has no plan or motivation to move on to anything bigger. UND's instructors are for the most part of high quality professionals. on the other hand though, UND is a closed bubble, out of which even the flight instructors dont always make it out of. Everything is very streamlined and there is a procedure for everything, and that is what makes it such a good aviation school. for training purposes thats great, and its super safe. but unfortunately i'd say in the aviation industry the best way to learn is through mistakes, and UND doesnt allow for many of those, so when they do happen... you get the point.

either way. we'll miss them both.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
saxman66
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 7:05 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 49):
I suppose I'm out of touch with the state of the flight training but I have to ask- doesn't it seem having a 22- year old instructor conducting cross-country flights at night with an inexperienced student seem a little bit risky? I know some people have better judgment when they're 18 than the rest of us at the age of 30 but there's no substitute or experience.

True, no substitute for experience, but most UND instructors are in their 20's. I was. Don't forget there's lots of 22 year olds out there flying regional jets too...

That said....I knew who Annette was. Seemed to love what she did. I don't like hearing about these things at my old campus. My thoughts go out to her and Adam and their families. Sad day for UND...

Chris (aka Tex)
UND Class of '05
Ride Amtrak!
 
whoopwhoop
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:44 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:58 am

As a 89 UND Grad, my condolences to friends, family and the school.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3131
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 51):
The plane was a twin? That explains a lot... especially on a night XC. If they were performing maneuvers a majority would be relatively high altitude for safety. You are probably right... an engine died in the middle of a maneuver at night. What's more is that a poster indicated that a commerical flight in the area was reporting turbulence... probably moderate chop for a CRJ, but a virtual hurricane for a Seminole or similar aircraft combine that with a failed engine at night and it probably would have been impossible to avoid tragedy.

Just to clarify i didnt say an engine died, and to further go on that, i don't see why on this lesson during that portion of the flight they would have been doing anything other than returning to grand forks. most of the single engine stuff on that lesson has got to do with single engine approaches and landings, and they were half way back to grand forks at this point, so unless they were practicing something extra... i dont really know why even the autopilot would be off. thats just my own opinion of course. i know every lesson with every instructor is different.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
n6238p
Posts: 437
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:02 am

God bless the victims and their families and friends. I have a few friends up at UND and I can't imagine the impact a tragedy like this would have on their program.

Condolences from a Flying Saluki.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
SiouxATC
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:17 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:04 am

As another student here at UND I would like to say RIP to the two who parished. We all know that this could happen, and when it does it is really hard to believe. We also know the risks of flying, albeit however small they are, there are still those risks and because we have that love for aviation we choose to do it anyway.

Sad news indeed.
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 51):
What's more is that a poster indicated that a commerical flight in the area was reporting turbulence... probably moderate chop for a CRJ, but a virtual hurricane for a Seminole or similar aircraft combine that with a failed engine at night and it probably would have been impossible to avoid tragedy.

Actually it was the CRJ reporting the severe turb.

Quoting Saxman66 (Reply 55):

Oye... People need to get the quote thing right.
Demand Media fails at life
 
YoungDon
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:06 am

RIP from the Aviation community at Hampton University, we always compete with UND at national flight competitions and hearing about this is very sad.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting Avro7 (Reply 48):
I suppose I'm out of touch with the state of the flight training but I have to ask- doesn't it seem having a 22- year old instructor conducting cross-country flights at night with an inexperienced student seem a little bit risky? I know some people have better judgment when they're 18 than the rest of us at the age of 30 but there's no substitute or experience

Well with the state of the industry anybody that is 23 and still in the training field and not in the regionals either is continuing his education, Wants to teach or does not want to go to the airlines. Most flight instructors at Florida Tech are 20-21-22 and then they leave for the regionals. These college aviation programs are almost always very rigorous and will train you so well that I would trust a 20 year old UND CFI over a 40 year old guy working out of the local FBO any day of the week.

My point is there are VERY VERY VERY VERY few CFIs over 24 out there these days, the only ones are those that dont want to go to the airlines because they like instructing or those that are not airline quality.

My CFI course is reaching its 5th (and hopefully last month) at Florida Tech, I have not failed or in-completed a single lesson or failed a stage check, it is just so rigorous it takes about 12 hours of ground and 4 hours of flight per lesson, with only 3 two hour lessons a week you can see how it takes so long. This is why college program CFIs are so good even though they are young.

They also teach you how to teach at FIT which means as soon as you get your CFI you are ready to start instructing there the very next day.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1391
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 52):
There has been talk about a lot of heavy turbulance in the are the past few days. I have heard some pilots talking about it and an NW Airbus having to decend rapidly to escape it.

It's been the same way around here. I took a flight home to MLI to pick up my instructor who had flown out to Vegas. It was fine at 5,000, but ORD center was saying that there were quite a few flight levels they weren't even using because the turbulence was so severe. I remember NW asking for lower and being denied because it was so bumpy. We've been having some weird weather, for sure. I flew out to Maine with a couple buddies last weekend and had a 60kt tailwind out there! A little odd, I'd say.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:47 pm

I heard about this really quick. The aviation community is really small, specially in the training environment. News good or bad is heard of really quick.

My sincere condolences from me and others at ERAU to our colleagues.
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:29 pm

Well I went to my ground school today, our professor pretty much cancelled class and all we talked about was the crash. Flight operations are completely shut down for the day, that includes the Sims and Briefings in Ryan hall. Very sobering day.
Demand Media fails at life
 
NWAMSPFLYR
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:11 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:30 pm

As a UND Grad of '03, it is sad indeed. I knew Annette through friends, and shared a few classes with her, may she rest in peace.

"to fly west my friend, is one final check we must all take"

God Bless Annette and Adam.
 
saxman66
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 7:05 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 54):
Here is how, right from UND itself!

http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero21.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero22.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero51.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero18.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero8.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero12.htm
http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero10.htm

Check your sources again. This is NOT from UND itself. This site was made by a disgruntled student, because he was mad at the school for something and devotes lots of time into his anti-UND site. For a school that logs tens of thousands of hours per year, this is not a bad record either way.

[Edited 2007-10-25 17:58:44]
Ride Amtrak!
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3131
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Saxman66 (Reply 67):
Check your sources again. This is NOT from UND itself. This site was made by a disgruntled student, because he was mad at the school for something and devotes lots of time into his anti-UND site. For a school that logs tens of thousands of hours per year, this is not a bad record either way.

Just for the record that wasnt posted by me...
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
msnyx
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:58 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting Saxman66 (Reply 67):
For a school that logs tens of thousands of hours per year, this is not a bad record either way.

If I'm not mistaken, UND is the largest flight school in the world. UND logs 110,000 hours per year, while ERAU logs 107,000 hours with their campuses combined. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Really sad to hear about Annette and Adam. God works in mysterious ways.

Psalm 139, written on Charles Lindbergh's grave stone:
"If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast."

[Edited 2007-10-25 17:34:03]

[Edited 2007-10-25 17:35:19]
If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there Your hand will guide me
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2220
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:21 am

RIP from an Eastern Michigan University Alumni. My thoughts and prayers are with your friends and families.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
wingnutmn
Topic Author
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:27 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:46 am

I guess the plane was found submerged in about 10 feet of swamp. They are going to use a UH60 Blackhawk from the MN National Guard to lift it out of the water and place it in a nearby field, then flatbed it to Camp Ripley for a full FAA and NTSB investigation. My question is now, how often are helicopters used to lift aircraft or parts of aircraft from crash sites? It would be interesting to see what that would look like (from peerly an interested aviation enthusiast). Rest in piece to the two pilots, and the UND community.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=54961

WingnutMN
UND Ulumini 2004
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 71):


I guess the plane was found submerged in about 10 feet of swamp. They are going to use a UH60 Blackhawk from the MN National Guard to lift it out of the water and place it in a nearby field, then flatbed it to Camp Ripley for a full FAA and NTSB investigation. My question is now, how often are helicopters used to lift aircraft or parts of aircraft from crash sites? It would be interesting to see what that would look like (from peerly an interested aviation enthusiast). Rest in piece to the two pilots, and the UND community.

Well, salvage operations vary depending on the terrain, available resources, etc.

This sounds like the type of terrain that wouldn't support land-based salvage. I don't think a flatbed or crane/endloader would be able to be held up by swampy terrain.

When possible, field investigators like to examine the plane on-scene so that it isn't disturbed. However, sometimes it needs to be moved to facilitate an easier investigation. Whatever salvage methods are available are used:

This summer I participated in a field investigation of a Navion that crashed into a bean field. We did the investigation on-scene.

I also participated in the MKE Citation accident in Lake Michigan. We had to use divers and boats to recover the wreckage and went over the wreckage in a hangar.

The P-51 accident at Oshkosh we towed 1 of the planes back and lifted the other one on a flatbed to a hangar where we did the investigation.

I didn't participate in any accident this past summer where air resources were used to salvage aircraft. However, in this situation it seems like the only feasible option if the aircraft is still in one piece. At the NTSB we graciously accepted most offers of assistance when it came to recovering wrecks.

[Edited 2007-10-25 21:01:51]
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):

Even if we throw out the one from last year (which I don't think we should), that still leaves this one and one from a few years back when a student went on his 221 long solo and fell asleep at the controls, crashing into a field (he survived). That's two serious accidents within a span of four or five years. While it's not a horrific record, it's nothing to be proud of either.

-Mir

Hey man I goto ERAU too and we have had plenty of accidents too for our size.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:39 pm

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 73):
Hey man I goto ERAU too and we have had plenty of accidents too for our size.

Yeah, we've had some hard landing accidents and that sort of thing, but I don't think we've had any hull losses for a while.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ILCFII
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:31 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:05 pm

RIP Annette and Adam

As a former UND instructor I was hired with Annette and can attest to her being a good pilot. She was very smart and always had safety in mind.

ILCFII
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:27 pm

Guys, thanks for the support. We certainly appreciate it in Grand Forks, it's been a long week.

Anyone in the area that is interested, there will be a memorial service at 1pm on Saturday 10/27 at the Chester Fritz Auditorium.

As for the UND accident record, well, the numbers speak for themselves, so I guess anyone is quite able to say what they will. Frankly, as a student and instructor myself, I think flying 120 aircraft over 100,000 hours each year in intensive training flight without more than a few incidents, on average, is a pretty good record. That said, every occurence is unfortunate, and we all look for ways to keep ourselves safe.

One slipped through the cracks Tuesday night. God bless.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 62):
These college aviation programs are almost always very rigorous and will train you so well that I would trust a 20 year old UND CFI over a 40 year old guy working out of the local FBO any day of the week.



Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 54):
And i would say I'd rather have a 22 year old UND instructor than a 30 year old at Johnny's FBO who has been teaching on PPL the past couple months and has no plan or motivation to move on to anything bigger.

Well, 2 ways of looking at this. First, most of my instructors were in their early 20's and very professional, and one was in his late 40's. All of them were good ...but, I don't buy that the guy who has no 'motivation to move on to anything bigger' is less capable than the young guy who wants to fly big jets. In fact, some might argue that most of the flight instructors in their 20's are instructing for no other reason than to build hours .. they don't want to teach ... whereas the 45 year old at the FBO probably IS doing what he wants to do .. to teach people to fly using his 25 years of experience. It is his career ... and a career being a CFI is no less a 'respectable' one than flying a CRJ from LGA - DCA 4 times a day.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 77):

Well, 2 ways of looking at this. First, most of my instructors were in their early 20's and very professional, and one was in his late 40's. All of them were good ...but, I don't buy that the guy who has no 'motivation to move on to anything bigger' is less capable than the young guy who wants to fly big jets. In fact, some might argue that most of the flight instructors in their 20's are instructing for no other reason than to build hours .. they don't want to teach ... whereas the 45 year old at the FBO probably IS doing what he wants to do .. to teach people to fly using his 25 years of experience. It is his career ... and a career being a CFI is no less a 'respectable' one than flying a CRJ from LGA - DCA 4 times a day.


Jimbo

Game.Set.Match.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 62):
These college aviation programs are almost always very rigorous and will train you so well that I would trust a 20 year old UND CFI over a 40 year old guy working out of the local FBO any day of the week.

Totally an insult to professional pilots everywhere and if you think a 23 yr old with 500 hours is going to be a better instructor on real world flying than someone with many more years experience you're WAY off base.

Nice way to take a tragedy and insult others.

We should all remember that airplanes are not toys, no matter what the age, and mourn these 2 people that passed away in a sad accident.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:52 am

I went on one of my cross countries today, I guess my flight instructor was a very good friend of Annette. I can't speak for her, but I tried to put it in the back of my head and not worry about it, and I think we both had a good time on the flight, even though it wasn't far from thought.
Demand Media fails at life
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 80):
I went on one of my cross countries today, I guess my flight instructor was a very good friend of Annette. I can't speak for her, but I tried to put it in the back of my head and not worry about it, and I think we both had a good time on the flight, even though it wasn't far from thought.

And thats the one thing about pilots. 99.9% of pilots love flying and fly for the love of. They dont fly for money, or the glamor, or the fame, they do it because they truly love it. And if you truly love something, then what other way would you want to leave this earth? I cant speak for either of these two, but I am guessing they truly loved flying, and I want to think it makes mourning the loss of a fellow pilot a little bit easier, knowing that they left this earth, doing what they loved the most.
Gob Bless,
RIP!!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 81):
And if you truly love something, then what other way would you want to leave this earth? I cant speak for either of these two, but I am guessing they truly loved flying, and I want to think it makes mourning the loss of a fellow pilot a little bit easier, knowing that they left this earth, doing what they loved the most.

I think we all tend to believe it's better to die doing something you love than not. I'm a big train guy, and I enjoy trainchasing/trainwatching when I can. If a train derailed, crushing me in my car, I'm sure most at the funeral would take solace in knowing that I died doing something that I really enjoyed.

Having said that, I've told my wife in no uncertain terms, "Honey, if I'm out trainwatching, and a train derails and kills me, please do NOT say 'He died doing something he loved' - because I did NOT want to die watching trains!"

Just my personal take. In the end, though, having folks feel at least a twinge of good in a horrible tragedy is probably the healthiest thing.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:46 pm

Any UND guys here go to the memorial?
Demand Media fails at life
 
FlyboySMF2GFK
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:13 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:46 am

Hi all, sad times indeed. Much respect to the fallen aviators and their families from a UND aviation grad.

From everything I've read in the news I'm going to go ahead and guess that this accident was the result of CO poisoning. Whether or not that turns out to be the case, everybody should remember the signs of CO intoxication, hypemic hypoxia, and the gamut of things surrounding that. There's likely nothing the pilots could have done in this case, but a friendly reminder to stay on your toes never hurts.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting FlyboySMF2GFK (Reply 84):
From everything I've read in the news I'm going to go ahead and guess that this accident was the result of CO poisoning.

Does UND have detectors in its airplanes?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting FlyboySMF2GFK (Reply 84):
Hi all, sad times indeed. Much respect to the fallen aviators and their families from a UND aviation grad.

From everything I've read in the news I'm going to go ahead and guess that this accident was the result of CO poisoning. Whether or not that turns out to be the case, everybody should remember the signs of CO intoxication, hypemic hypoxia, and the gamut of things surrounding that. There's likely nothing the pilots could have done in this case, but a friendly reminder to stay on your toes never hurts.

The Seminole has a Janitrol heater which is a lot less susceptible to CO escaping than a regular heater. It is way to early and I have not seen any information, so how did you come to guess?

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 79):
Totally an insult to professional pilots everywhere and if you think a 23 yr old with 500 hours is going to be a better instructor on real world flying than someone with many more years experience you're WAY off base.

What Insult? this is my own personal opinion, if you dont like it then say so, but I am not insulting anybody, so why dont you just chill.

People that are not in a constant training environment develop bad habits that get worse over the years and if there is not a lot of oversight they tend to bend the rules and take chances that a person in a rigorous training environment like Riddle, UND or FIT would not take, this environment happens a lot in FBOs were there are only one or two instructors that work there on the weekends as a side job.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 79):
Totally an insult to professional pilots everywhere and if you think a 23 yr old with 500 hours is going to be a better instructor on real world flying than someone with many more years experience you're WAY off base.

Nice way to take a tragedy and insult others.

Well, speaking of taking tragedies and insulting others, how about you coming to the conclusion that UND instructors aren't competent based off of an accident that we don't even know the cause of yet? That's an insult to professional pilots as well.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
thepilot
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:34 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 83):
Any UND guys here go to the memorial?

Yeah, the service was at the Chester Fritz auditorium. Tomorrow, there is a smaller memorial service in Duluth for Adam.

Quoting FlyboySMF2GFK (Reply 84):
From everything I've read in the news I'm going to go ahead and guess that this accident was the result of CO poisoning.

This is exactly what my initial thoughts were, and I continue to believe that. So do many aviation professionals I have heard from.

Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
Does UND have detectors in its airplanes?

No we do not. I can almost guarantee you that if that turns out to be the cause of the accident (or even if it does not), we will be getting them in all our planes soon.
From YVR
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 88):
No we do not. I can almost guarantee you that if that turns out to be the cause of the accident (or even if it does not), we will be getting them in all our planes soon.

I would get them in there even if it doesn't turn out to be the cause. They don't cost much, so there's no reason to fly without them. If it were me running the program, I wouldn't let any cross country flights go unless there's a detector in the plane, especially with winter coming.

The G1000 has a CO detector built in, IIRC. I suppose this isn't the case with the Avidyne?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 79):
Totally an insult to professional pilots everywhere and if you think a 23 yr old with 500 hours is going to be a better instructor on real world flying than someone with many more years experience you're WAY off base.


Quoting Luisca (Reply 86):

People that are not in a constant training environment develop bad habits that get worse over the years and if there is not a lot of oversight they tend to bend the rules and take chances that a person in a rigorous training environment like Riddle, UND or FIT would not take, this environment happens a lot in FBOs were there are only one or two instructors that work there on the weekends as a side job.

What about the bi-annual recurrency check? What about airline pilots and corporate pilots who flight instruct on the weekends at FBO's? What about those whose companies send them to Flight Safety for training updates? These guys usually have thousands and thousands of hours of EXPERIENCE. No amount of education can replace that. The FI that I got my commerical ticketl from had over 18,000 hours in a legacy airline environment. You need to look at the overall picture of the aviation industry, not just what goes on in the university environment.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 90):
What about the bi-annual recurrency check?

That is not nearly enough to keep a pilot from developing bad habits. You cant fail a BFR, by law all it is is one hour of flight and one of ground were the only required topic is Part 91 operating procedures.

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 90):
What about airline pilots and corporate pilots who flight instruct on the weekends at FBO's? What about those whose companies send them to Flight Safety for training updates? These guys usually have thousands and thousands of hours of EXPERIENCE. No amount of education can replace that. The FI that I got my commerical ticketl from had over 18,000 hours in a legacy airline environment. You need to look at the overall picture of the aviation industry, not just what goes on in the university environment.

Obviously an airline or corporate pilot working at the FBO on the weekends is in a constant training environment, this is what I am advocating, I am talking about the guy that flight instructs as a side job and has a non aviation related job , He doesn't get new training, Trust me I have attended FAA seminars on the subject and it is a fact that constant training provides the best possible and safest training environment and that a lot of the flight training accidents are caused by Instructors doing improper stuff due to lack of experience, training or oversight.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3131
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 88):
This is exactly what my initial thoughts were, and I continue to believe that. So do many aviation professionals I have heard from.

Just to respond to this, and i hate speculating because we may never know the real cause, but the ELT didnt go off, which personally leads me to believe that they were conscious and attempting to land in what they thought was an open field, unluckily turned out to be a swamp. And the autopilot was off which is a bit wierd for that part of 325-86. Just my opinion. I dont want to specualte on the cause and i have no idea what it could have been. But it seems like CO poisoning would have had a different outcome.



And for the rest of you. This is not the place for an argument about experience and FBOs versus flight schools. Seriously. Do Annete and Adam some justice and at least start a new topic. Thanks ahead of time.

'902

ps i attended that memorial and it seemed like everyone was actually in a pretty up-beat mood. I didnt expect that at a memorial service, but everyone seemed to be very embracing, willing to hold each other up, and it really brought the aviation community together, from the micro-community of my 325 class which Adam was in to UND Aerospace to everyone involved in aviation in general. We all felt it, and being together feels good.
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
bahadir
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 54):
And i would say I'd rather have a 22 year old UND instructor than a 30 year old at Johnny's FBO who has been teaching on PPL the past couple months and has no plan or motivation to move on to anything bigger.

I have no intentions of moving to anything 'better' or 'bigger'. Does that make me a worse CFI? I have been instructing for 7 years and i feel like i haven't learned enough. What makes you think that 22 year olds trained by a very regimented program are better? Most of the UND grads I hired they were good pilots but they had no clue about the GA world.
Earthbound misfit I
 
bahadir
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 86):
People that are not in a constant training environment develop bad habits that get worse over the years and if there is not a lot of oversight they tend to bend the rules and take chances that a person in a rigorous training environment like Riddle, UND or FIT would not take, this environment happens a lot in FBOs were there are only one or two instructors that work there on the weekends as a side job.

So, what you are saying there needs to be a lot of oversights in order to make the pilots better? Remember, there is a huge world of GA aviation world out there that you 20 year old 'XYZ Academy' students don't get. What kind of experience do you have with the 'FBOs' with 1-2 instructors ? Does the number of instructors indicate the level of professionalism or safety? I know one guy that i would trust my life with and would consider his insight very valuable who operates a place like that.. So, that's a bad guy? Bad pilot? He happens to have 40 years of aviation experience, gold seal and master instructor.. Hmm.. he is a bad pilot..

I don't know what they are feeding you in FIT, you CAN get good (even better ) training in a place like you described above..
Earthbound misfit I
 
bahadir
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 91):
ng, I am talking about the guy that flight instructs as a side job and has a non aviation related job

Luisca,
i am one of those guys.. Come to seattle and i will give you training for free.. Let's see what you know.. I am serious..
Earthbound misfit I
 
bahadir
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 92):
Just to respond to this, and i hate speculating because we may never know the real cause, but the ELT didnt go off, which personally leads me to believe that they were conscious and attempting to land in what they thought was an open field, unluckily turned out to be a swamp.

Do they teach you how reliable the ELT is in UND? Cause as a small FBO flight instructor I was told by an old guy that those are not reliable.. 'Unless you have 406-MHz ELT , don't expect much out of it ' he said.. Then again, he was a small FBO instructor .. what does he know?

ELTs are piece of crap. they do not work, unless you have the ones with satellite capability. The fact that ELT didn't go off doesn't mean a thing. I am sorry to burst your bubble of 'World's biggest flight school' attitude, but your conclusion is not only wrong, but it is also a bad one.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 92):
But it seems like CO poisoning would have had a different outcome.

You don't know this until you find the bodies. There will be some autopsies that will determine if this was a cause or not.
Now, i don't know if you know a thing or two about Seminole systems but the chance for CO poisoning is slim to none. The heater is independent from the exhaust gases.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 92):
And for the rest of you. This is not the place for an argument about experience and FBOs versus flight schools. Seriously. Do Annete and Adam some justice and at least start a new topic. Thanks ahead of time.

I didn't bring this one up, but as a CFI that cares about his students i take an offense, especially from people think that they are the best gift to the aviation world. These people mainly come from ERAU, UND and any big named school.

I wish I could tell you about a CFI that I interviewed that graduated from Southern Illinois who wasn't even ablte to meet the private pilot standards.
Earthbound misfit I
 
FlyboySMF2GFK
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:13 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 96):
Now, i don't know if you know a thing or two about Seminole systems but the chance for CO poisoning is slim to none. The heater is independent from the exhaust gases.

Interesting read, but way off-base. You're right that the heater is independent from the engine exhaust, however it is a combustion engine in and of itself, of which CO is a byproduct, and it utilizes an exhaust shroud similar to that of most engine-driven environmental systems.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 92):
Just to respond to this, and i hate speculating because we may never know the real cause, but the ELT didnt go off, which personally leads me to believe that they were conscious and attempting to land in what they thought was an open field, unluckily turned out to be a swamp. And the autopilot was off which is a bit wierd for that part of 325-86. Just my opinion. I dont want to specualte on the cause and i have no idea what it could have been. But it seems like CO poisoning would have had a different outcome.

I agree with this as a possible scenario - likely the only other realistic one. But if they were forcing a landing, why no radio calls? And why force a landing in a twin? Electrical or some other type of onboard fire would be the only thing I can think of.

I dunno - I'm still thinking this was incapacitation due to CO poisoning. It has all the hallmarks. CFIT makes no sense, mechanical failure is not likely with such an intact post-crash airframe, weather was pretty much a non-factor. Maybe they ran out of gas - but with a CFI and a 325 student onboard? Sorry, it's just not adding up to be a pilot-error or mech failure type of accident. This is all speculation, of course, but I hope we can at least learn from this and attain some level of cognizance - regardless of he outcome.
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:46 am

This arguing and bickering is completely senseless and uncalled for. If any of you are so compelled to argue about variations in training style (which there clearly are) then I implore one of those individuals to start something like a "FBO training vs. collegiate training" thread since it has nothing to do with the tragedy at UND.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: UND Plane Missing

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 91):
You cant fail a BFR, by law all it is is one hour of flight and one of ground were the only required topic is Part 91 operating procedures.

You can't fail a BFR per se, but you do need to get an endorsement in your logbook that certifies that the CFI believes you are competent to continue to exercise the privileges of your certificate. The CFI is perfectly within their rights not to give you that endorsement after the one hour of ground and one hour of flight if they feel you don't have the competency.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos