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Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:47 am

After flying this fall from LAS and PHX to MSP and experiencing completely jammed oversold and wait listed 757-300's should NWA order some additional A330-200's (domestic) beyond the recently completeted order book of 32 A330-200/300 internationals to meet domestic peak time, main route flights? I think they need a twin aisle domestic main route workhorse. That way they can use the 757-300 for their Hawaii schedule.

I really think they need a domestic twin aisle subfleet of 6 to 10- A330-200 which could cover peak time flights among their main DTW and MSP hubs to following stations: SEA, LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, MCO (Orlando) and perhaps flights to to partner hubs ATL, IAH, EWR.

They don;t need WBC seats--but perhaps 32 domestic first class seats and balance coach. They are the only major network carrier not to be oprating twin aisle a/c domestically.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:06 am

Short answer: No

Long answer:
If anything NW could at this moment use a few more additional A330-200's for international. In the current configuration, the 753 seats 224, the A330 seats 243. In theory a "domestic" A330-200 would hold more, probably ~260. However the costs & lack of flexibility outweigh the benefits. The operating costs of the A330 would be significantly higher than the 757's. By monitoring capacity, NW is able to keep yields higher on some of these routes (SEA specifically).

In reality they need more 753's and more frequencies.
 
toltommy
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:14 am

LA is a low yield market. It wouldn't make sense to route a 330 there. But I wonder if it could be used on a DTW-MSP flight or two. Rotate the planes thru the hubs, and use them to connect higher yielding traffic?
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acidradio
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
LA is a low yield market. It wouldn't make sense to route a 330 there. But I wonder if it could be used on a DTW-MSP flight or two. Rotate the planes thru the hubs, and use them to connect higher yielding traffic?

That's what they added the 753 for, in order to replace DC10's on the interhub runs. The rationale was that it was cheaper to run a 753 and a 319 or 320 between hubs in order to reduce the need for DC10's domestic. It keeps domestic machines "domestic" and international machines "international". It adds a bit of extra frequency, which helps to sell more expensive tickets to the business traveler who wants that. Also, It also seems wasteful to burn up cycles on those 330's for something like a MSP-DTW.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:49 pm

The wingtip, narrowbody flights between DTW & MSP, as we've discussed many times, it necessary to move a larger number of passengers, non-revs, & deadheading crews (mainline & Airlink) between the hubs. Additionally, it allows NW to reposition aircraft as necessary between the hubs and get them positioned back in the proper place for maintenance or whatever.

NW has choosen not to operate the widebodies domestically in favor ensuring the reliability of the international schedule. Any domestic segments just would add complexity and additional risk that an aircraft make get delayed in turn delaying the international departure. As it is now, there is ample ground time in DTW/MSP between the inbound / outbound flights to allow for delays on top of normal maintenance, cleaning, catering in order to get the international flight out on time.

Plus, the additional boarding/deplaning times, use of containerized luggage, etc. all adds additional complexity, that makes just running a bunch of DC-9's, A319/A320/ 757's much more logical.

That said, there is still opportunities to add more frequencies on their domestic trunk routes. In the early 2000's, not only were they operating with larger aircraft (DC-10's) but there were also in many instances more flights per day, particularly DTW-West Coast.

There may be opportunities at times to add capacity - either by making these routes all 757's and/or adding more frequencies. The problem with additional frequencies is that often that may result in flights at times that people don't really want to fly.
 
crj200faguy
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:53 pm

Yes, MSP-RST. Pull out a bunch of seats and just wheel the 100 wheelchairs in and strap them down.  Smile
 
QantasHeavy
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:05 pm

DL has had good luck filling domestic wide bodies between hubs and focus cities. AA and UA have considerable domestic widebody movements so one would think NW could sustain a few between hubs/trunk routes.

QF found the A330 to not be a good short-range aircraft and found them much better for the 4hour+ routes... now mostly 7+ hour flights. Of course QF has an air force of domestic 767s and only a half dozen domestic destinations for them so moving the 330s into international made sense (though I miss them on the domestic runs!).
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 6):
DL has had good luck filling domestic wide bodies between hubs and focus cities. AA and UA have considerable domestic widebody movements so one would think NW could sustain a few between hubs/trunk routes.

Things have changed a lot in recent years.
DL used to run a ton of domestic widebodies, now they run only a handful as they have transitioned most of their widebodies to international, except for some inter-hub flying & repositioning.

AA does not run much domestic widebodies other than trans-cons & inter-hub.

NW doesn't fly any trans-cons, nor are their hubs in Mega O&D cities (NYC, ORD, LAX, MIA).
DTW & MSP are all of 528 miles apart.
 
sxf24
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:47 pm

Those NW flights are not full because of strong, high-yielding demand, but because of cheap connecting tickets. NW yield management does a good job at getting a very high load factor.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 6):
DL has had good luck filling domestic wide bodies between hubs and focus cities. AA and UA have considerable domestic widebody movements so one would think NW could sustain a few between hubs/trunk routes.

DL does well with the -300's domestically where a 757 is too small. Not unlike the 787-3, they are well suited for domestic runs while the -300ER's are better for International/Hawaii runs and to a larger extent the -400ER's where a 777 is simply too large. Use of a 330 or a 787-8/9 for that matter in the furture is problematic due to wingspan issues and availability of ADG-V gates at airport. In the future DL will either use the 787-3 domestically to replace the 767's or what ever the largest variant of the narrowbody replacement is on domestic runs which is said to seat about 230. If anyone is a 787-3 candidate in the US, it's Delta followed closely by AA then UA based on the wingspan issue alone as they look for a domestic widebody replacement.

[Edited 2007-10-25 07:46:09]
 
jfk777
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:55 pm

An A330-300 would be better suited for this and leave the A330-200 for international servcie since they can cross both oceans.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The wingtip, narrowbody flights between DTW & MSP, as we've discussed many times, it necessary to move a larger number of passengers, non-revs, & deadheading crews (mainline & Airlink) between the hubs. Additionally, it allows NW to reposition aircraft as necessary between the hubs and get them positioned back in the proper place for maintenance or whatever.

Also, NW has some slack in their schedule by flying 3 wingtip DC-9s between DTW and MSP, instead of 1 A330. If a DC-9 on a DTW-LGA turnaround goes mechanical, and there are enough empty seats on the wingtip flights to MSP, NW can cancel one of the wing tip flights to MSP, move the passengers on the cancelled flight onto the other two wing tip flights, and use the DC-9 that's been freed up to cover the LGA flight.

I fly about once every other month between MSP and DTW, and this seems to happen at least once a year to me.

NW would not have this level of flexibility if they were flying one widebody instead of three narrow bodies!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:13 pm

You raise an interesting point......there clearly are certain domestic routes on which NW could fill an A332 or even an A333; DTW and MSP to PHX, LAX, SFO, SEA and certain Mainland-Hawaii routes come to mind.....but does it make sense to ""waste"" very capable A330s on these routes? The answer is probably NO, first, dedicating a group of A330s to domestic service (with a domestic F class) would limit NW's flexibility: the domestic A330s would be useful during high demand travel periods, but what about slow travel months? Second, NW has a very good high capacity domestic airplane, the 757-300, which has unbeatable operating costs and allows NW to profit on lower yielding and high demand routes. Third, NW's (in)famous wingtip to wingtip flights are a necessary part of NW's operations; these flights allow NW to move airplanes between hubs and can give the airline flexibility when there are operational problems and the like.

Widebodies have become rare on US domestic flights.....airlines need flexibility, passengers demand frequent departures, and airlines cannot afford to fly around empty airplanes and/or fill up airplanes with bargain fares, thus, the smaller airplanes make much more sense for domestic route systems. I, too, remember the days of NW flying DC-10-40s on routes throughout their domestic network, those days are long gone.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
In reality they need more 753's and more frequencies.

This is the key answer.....NW should have ordered additional 753s when they had the chance. Its my understanding that the 753s were originally envisioned as domestic/mainland aircraft and would (more or less) replace the DC-10-40s on a one for one basis. Later, NW determined that sending the 753s to Hawaii would be a very good idea: the right number of seats and low operating costs would enable NW to compete on some very competitive mainland-Hawaii routes. Thus, a good number of the 753s are now scheduled on routes to/from Hawaii which, not being the original plan, left NW a bit short on larger domestic airliners. Also, NW is now dispatching a sub-fleet of 752s on Transatlantic services, resulting in fewer large domestic aircraft.
 
gigneil
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
An A330-300 would be better suited for this and leave the A330-200 for international servcie since they can cross both oceans.

NW just doesn't have the sort of domestic network to support an A330-300.

NS
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:25 pm

As an expensive plane on ownership costs, you want to fly it as much as possible on long routes, not have it doing turns of one hour all day long
 
toltommy
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 14):
As an expensive plane on ownership costs, you want to fly it as much as possible on long routes, not have it doing turns of one hour all day long

While I can't speak for anyone else, I thought it might be possible to use the AC to position between the hubs, and run 1 DTW-MSP flight each afternoon? Could be a great congestion reliever.
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lhpdx
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:13 pm

"You raise an interesting point......there clearly are certain domestic routes on which NW could fill an A332 or even an A333; DTW and MSP to PHX, LAX, SFO, SEA and certain Mainland-Hawaii routes come to mind....."

I think PDX could also be added to that list.....................
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:21 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
NW just doesn't have the sort of domestic network to support an A330-300.

 checkmark  Agreed. Just because AA and UA does it with a 772 does not mean that NW has to use a 332/333 for it.
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JAAlbert
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:22 pm

Jeez, wouldn't it be nice if NW flew its 330s domestically! As a passenger, I always appreciate the relative spaciousness of a widebody over a single isle any day.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 15):
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 14):
As an expensive plane on ownership costs, you want to fly it as much as possible on long routes, not have it doing turns of one hour all day long

While I can't speak for anyone else, I thought it might be possible to use the AC to position between the hubs, and run 1 DTW-MSP flight each afternoon? Could be a great congestion reliever.

I remember back when NW ran its European flights out of the BOS gateway and they ran 2 DC10's at around 4:00 PM from DTW to BOS. I also remember the wide bodies going between both DTW and MSP several times a day.
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curticool
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:19 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
NW just doesn't have the sort of domestic network to support an A330-300.

Agreed. Just because AA and UA does it with a 772 does not mean that NW has to use a 332/333 for it.

A 772 is the same as the A330-200 so why cant NW use it domestically

-Curticool Big grin
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
Second, NW has a very good high capacity domestic airplane, the 757-300, which has unbeatable operating costs and allows NW to profit on lower yielding and high demand routes.

At a capacity of 224, NW's 753's actually hold more passengers that most other's 767's. For example, on a route like LAX-HNL, NW can take more pax and at a lower operating cost compared to those who operate international configured 763's
AA's 762s - 158
AA's 763's - 212
NW's 753's - 224

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
NW should have ordered additional 753s when they had the chance. Its my understanding that the 753s were originally envisioned as domestic/mainland aircraft and would (more or less) replace the DC-10-40s on a one for one basis.

The original plans was for 753's to initially replace DC-10-40's domestically, A330's to replace DC-10-30's international. ~ 6 - 12 DC-10-30's were to be retained for Hawaii & charters. Obviously the economics changed for the DC-10's, as has just about every old assumption about this industry in the past 8 years. Also at the time, NW had cut way back on West Coast-Hawaii flying at the twilight of the DC-10's career. Only due to increased demand and the improved economics of the 753 has NW been able to re-enter/launch SFO/LAX/PDX - HNL

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
Also, NW is now dispatching a sub-fleet of 752s on Transatlantic services, resulting in fewer large domestic aircraft.

Hence why NW returned all of the 752's from the desert into service. As a whole, the 757 fleet has stayed the most intact through Ch 11, where the A319's & A320's saw numerous lease rejections & removal from the fleet.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 15):
While I can't speak for anyone else, I thought it might be possible to use the AC to position between the hubs, and run 1 DTW-MSP flight each afternoon? Could be a great congestion reliever.

No need, plus you would need one to come the other way. NW can accomplish the same thing via tail swaps in AMS, LGW, and next year CDG.

For example, AA & UA need to reposition as they operate a much more dispersed widebody/international network.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting LHPDX (Reply 16):
I think PDX could also be added to that list.....................

Yes, I should have included Portland.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
Jeez, wouldn't it be nice if NW flew its 330s domestically!

Nice, yes. Smart, no.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 19):
I remember back when NW ran its European flights out of the BOS gateway and they ran 2 DC10's at around 4:00 PM from DTW to BOS. I also remember the wide bodies going between both DTW and MSP several times a day

I remember this as well...I guess that makes us old; BOS-DTW and BOS-MSP both had several DC10 departures per day. Did NW miss an opportunity at BOS? Could NW have developed BOS into a well located and strong European gateway city with a good mix of O&D traffic and some connecting traffic?

Quoting Curticool (Reply 20):
A 772 is the same as the A330-200 so why cant NW use it domestically

A 772 and an A332 are really not the ""same"".......
 
gigneil
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):

   Agreed. Just because AA and UA does it with a 772 does not mean that NW has to use a 332/333 for it.

How many flights a day does AA operate domestically with the 772? 5?

NS
 
BoeingBoy
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:46 pm

Short answer again - NO - Domestic 330's are called BOEING 767's
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BrianDromey
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:55 pm

I think a lot of this is "narrowbody phobia". There is an impression that a 777/330/767 are more comfortable/spacious than a 757/737/320. I can tell you one thing for sure, the NW 753's have larger overheads than many a 767, and to my mind 3-3 is a far superior configuration to 2-5-2, which sucks. I dont see the problem with narrowbodys on longer routes, I found SFO-HNL on the 753 very pleasent, thank you very much!

Maybe its because the American carriers 'spoilt' you guys in the good old days with a large proportion of widebody flights over short distances.In Europe the 737-400/757/A321 have been much more popular for european routes than the 767, apart from occasional LHR-AMS/CDG, etc. I think its just what American travellers are used to.

There is also a perception that 767 holds significantly more pax. How often have we seen threads like "I wish CO would send their 767s to MCO, etc they could sell the seats" only for reply #2 to point out the 762 CO has seats less than their 757!

Brian.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Curticool (Reply 20):
A 772 is the same as the A330-200 so why cant NW use it domestically

I didn't say they "can't" use it domestically. Please re-read my post. I said "Just because AA and UA uses their 772's domestically does not mean that NW has to use their 332/333's domestically." No one is holding a gun to NW's head demanding that they HAVE to use it.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
A 772 and an A332 are really not the ""same"".......

Agreed.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
How many flights a day does AA operate domestically with the 772? 5?

I don't know. I do know that AA does use them domestically from either DFW or ORD. Same with UA from ORD or SFO.
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SNCNtry32
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
deadheading crews

Flight 753 or 757, I forget which one, is a 753 that does DTW-MSP that i like to call the Non-Rev Express.

IIRC, in July, during the pilot fiasco, didnt they send out a A330 to do some domestic flights? And I think SEA-MSP was an A330 during the summer for a little bit.
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AirCop
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:28 pm

While NW won't fly the 332 domestically, I can see a day when US will operate a 332 between PHX and PHL/CLT.
 
Spoke2Spoke
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:16 pm

The first thing that came to my mind while enjoying this thread:

So how long until Boeing re-opens the 757 line, or schedules a next-gen 757 for production?

The 753's domestic trunk route advantages and the 752's transatlantic capabilities make this a very important airplane. Its an airplane that's out of prodution with no true competitor in production. Its only a matter of time. Who will build first to fill the market: Boeing, Airbus, or someone else???
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NewYorkCityBoi
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:44 am

I am not "narrowbody phobia" but I dont like to go through 2 people to get to the aisle but I dont wanna sit on an aisle seat or in the middle either. To me, I dont care about how 767 has smaller overhead storage, but I think 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 is good for the fact that you dont have to go through 2 people just to go to the restroom. With the same reason i like 2-5-2 more than 3-3-3.
 
anstar
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
If anything NW could at this moment use a few more additional A330-200's for international. In the current configuration, the 753 seats 224, the A330 seats 243. In theory a "domestic" A330-200 would hold more, probably ~260.

QF had their 332's configured in 303 seat 2 class layout (with aorund 30J I think) when they did domestic ops.

They found the turnaround times to be too long for the 1-1.5 hr flights they were using them on
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
DL used to run a ton of domestic widebodies, now they run only a handful as they have transitioned most of their widebodies to international, except for some inter-hub flying & repositioning.

DL actually still has about 20 domestic 763s (not sure of the exact number because some have been returned to lessors). DL's 763s still are predominantly used for ATL flights as well as to Hawaii from the western US. A fleet of 20 airplanes still provides significant lift; DL still has significant domestic widebody capacity.

Also, DL considered the 333 and 332 when they were looking at a replacement for the L1011s for domestic system. The 764 did get the nod eventually but the 332 was definitely under consideration. The 333 would have been too big in a domestic configuration. I suspect if DL had chosen the 332, they would have discovered their value as an int'l aircraft faster than they did with the 764.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 21):
At a capacity of 224, NW's 753's actually hold more passengers that most other's 767's.

and that is not really an apples to apples comparison. You are comparing domestic configured 757s to int'l or premium domestic configured 767s. There are no US carriers operating domestic configured 762s but there are domestic configured 763s and they have 250+ seats, more than a 753. When airlines did operate domestic configured 762s, they had about 210 seats.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
A 772 and an A332 are really not the ""same"".......

agree. The 772A is considerably heavier and doesn't have anywhere near the range the 332 has. While the 767 and 777 are great planes, the A330 series has a better combination of economics and performance for flights under about 5000 miles. That is why 767 sales have slowed to a crawl and why the 777 is selling best in ultralong haul and high capacity versions.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 25):
I think a lot of this is "narrowbody phobia". There is an impression that a 777/330/767 are more comfortable/spacious than a 757/737/320. I can tell you one thing for sure, the NW 753's have larger overheads than many a 767, and to my mind 3-3 is a far superior configuration to 2-5-2, which sucks. I dont see the problem with narrowbodys on longer routes, I found SFO-HNL on the 753 very pleasent, thank you very much!

what airline has a 767 in 2-5-2 seating?
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:51 am

It doesn't matter if they get A330s for those particular routes, they'll still be oversold. When NWA used to have 3-4 DC-10s on the PHX-MSP route, they used to upgrade some of those flights to 747s. I remember one flight that was upgraded from a DC-10 to a 747 and still left 30 passengers (I'm sure some of them non-reving) waiting for later flights.
The GoodDoctor
 
HnlBoi
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:53 am

Just a side note NW morning departue from SEA to HNL flight 219 becomes a 330 i believe effective Nov 1, however it is seasonal. The return flight back to SEA will be the 330 as well. Our night departure will still be the 753.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 33):
what airline has a 767 in 2-5-2 seating?

And, is the 767 even capable of 9 abreast seating?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
BoeingBoy
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting Coronado (Thread starter):
Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

NO - Domestic - we're talking an airline that squeezed a DC-9 till it bled.
NW has no domestic flights to support a 330. And don't quote me the hawaii flights.
Is there any other airline that flys 330's domestic - didn't think so.
In the USA (east coast to west coast) there is no place for the 330.
10% is the best we can do
 
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coronado
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:36 am

Thanks for all the comments. The bottom line is there are NO more 757-300's to be had. I doubt if CO or TZ are willing to part with any! I think only 55 of them were ever sold.

It seems like 1/2 of the NWA 757-300 fleet appears to be tied up on the Hawaii routes leaving maybe only 8-10 for US domestic pipeline routes. NWA have also spawned off a dozen 757 to TATL operations and probably 2-4 more 757-200's to Asian routes out of NRT.

I just sense that without these 757-300 and 757-200, that they are short of domestic lift capacity on the major domestic prime time pipeline routes,

In a perfect world NWA would be able to order another 8-10 757-300's--it is an ideal a/c for peak flight operations for NWA but that is no longer possible.

Where to they get peak time lift? A-321? or do they figure out what can be done with their A330 fleet, which from what I understand is not all yet spoken for on route assignments. Or do they wait another year (?) and perhaps use the economics of the 787 fleet to open up the door for domestic tags to international flights?
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 29):
So how long until Boeing re-opens the 757 line....

Never. The jigs and tooling has been destroyed.

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 29):
...schedules a next-gen 757 for production?

It won't be a '757', but it might be another aircraft with a different designation that is similar to what the 757 family is now, but with CRFP and with today's/tomorrow's technology in avionics.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:55 am

I wouldn't be surprised if NWA ordered/leased a dozen 321s. They can be configured in a 180ish configuration and replace the 752s that could be used in an expanding international subfleet. With the 321 NWA can utilize the 321 for its capasity on the shorter routes the 757s fly and leave them to the longer hauls - Hawaii, Atlantic, Alaska etc...


AZJ
 
SNCNtry32
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 40):
the 757s fly

As in Hub to Hub stuff?

What about SEA-MSP, PDX-MSP? Those always seem full. Those would remain 752/753 if the A321 thing happened?
Long Live Memphis!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 41):
What about SEA-MSP

NWA used to use the D10 for this route, roundtrip.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 40):
I wouldn't be surprised if NWA ordered/leased a dozen 321s. They can be configured in a 180ish configuration and replace the 752s that could be used in an expanding international subfleet. With the 321 NWA can utilize the 321 for its capacity on the shorter routes the 757s fly and leave them to the longer hauls - Hawaii, Atlantic, Alaska etc...

I dont expect NW to order the A321 for several reasons:

1. NW is focused on smaller jets for domestic services at the moment, the the E-Jets and the larger CRJs scheduled for delivery in the coming years, NW will be adjusting its routes, frequencies and hub operations. These airplanes will give NW new flexibility in its operation.....as NW builds its fleet of E-Jets/larger CRJs, its likely that larger mainline aircraft will become available to add frequency/capacity on key routes.

2. Not to bring up the most over-discussed a.net issue of all time, but NW will make some type of decision concerning its DC9 operations in the near term future....whatever decision NW makes, it will cost money and resources as many airplanes need replacement. The 100 issue, I think, takes priority over adding more airplanes in the 180 seat category.

3. A small number of A321s (say the dozen mentioned) would probably be more of a headache than an advantage for a larger carrier like NW....a small fleet of airplanes would be ""limited"" to certain routes or just one hub and NW could lose a lot of flexibility. Why bother?

4. And, lastly, and probably most importantly, while this topic is an interesting one, the real answer is that NW probably likes and is very happy with its 757s and A320s flying from DTW or MSP to the cities mentioned in the above posts going out at capacity each and every day of the week, every week of the year, regardless of season. The question is not if NW could fill larger airplanes on these routes, but could they do it consistently without affecting yields? NW is better off adjusting frequency on these routes during extreme high demand period and/or occasionally running a widebody (when available due to scheduling) on the busiest of days, and not be stuck with unsold seats during lower demand periods (which is a good part of the time). Filled airplanes, increased demand, rising yields, and NW makes money....thats a good thing.

Simply my opinion.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Can A NWA 330-200 Domestic Be Justified?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:38 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 38):
I just sense that without these 757-300 and 757-200, that they are short of domestic lift capacity on the major domestic prime time pipeline routes,

I think that you sense wrong, if this really were the case NW would have ordered A321s around the time the announced 757 to international routes.

There are many people on this board who would say the US has too much capacity, and the LCCs are hurting yield, yet many of these people will turn around and say NW should used A330s domestically.

Large widebodies are not the domestic aircraft of the future, only on trunk routes where cargo is significant.

Quoting NewYorkCityBoi (Reply 30):
I dont care about how 767 has smaller overhead storage, but I think 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 is good for the fact that you dont have to go through 2 people just to go to the restroom. With the same reason i like 2-5-2 more than 3-3-3.

So waht you are saying to me is you like a middle seat? And it is only OK to have two people to pass to go to the restroom if you are on a widebody 2-5-2 and therefore not next to a window?

Brian.

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