b777a340fan
Topic Author
Posts: 675
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Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:39 pm

I did a search about this topic and I thought it'd be the first thing on here, but I guess not.... But I guess people don't seem to be bothered as I am. When I heard the news, I was half laughing, half falling off the treadmill. Okay, I get it: delays are worse than ever before (I have yet to agree to that fact), but is it right to blame the airlines themselves? I may be on board to fining the airlines if they maliciously and/or purposely delay a flight. However, I must be thinking that the majority of the time, it is either weather related delays, poor airport operations, and/or over-crowded skies. I think it's the wrong path to take in an already competitive and struggling industry that have literally JUST recovered from the 9/11 attacks. It's a sad and pathetic way to point fingers at the easy targets (i.e. the airlines) when the finger should be pointed to poor airport operations, over-worked/understaffed towers/control centers, amongst other things. Point blank, I think airlines should ONLY be fined if they maliciously and intently delay a flight, but I mean, things happen.... An airplane could need immediate servicing, passengers can be delayed, a lot of things can happen.... but I don't think an airline would ever say to themselves, "the weather's nice in HNL, so we'll just stay here for couple more hours". Airlines WANT to be on-time because the contrary would entail major operation disruptions, the wheel needs to keep turning. Anyways, I'm not bitter, LOL.  rotfl 
 
Analog
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting B777A340Fan (Thread starter):
I think airlines should ONLY be fined if they maliciously and intently delay a flight, but I mean, things happen..

I think it's fair to call a delay expected (tantamount to intentional on the part of the person creating the schedule) if a flight is delayed by "weather" or ATC more than half the time. If the conditions for on time departure and arrival exist only in a minority of cases over a month's time, then the airline is to blame for creating an unrealistic schedule.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:05 pm

If airline A schedules 30 departures in a certain hour at JFK and airlines B, C, D also schedule 30 departures for that same hour - but the airport can only take off 50 aircraft in that hour.

Are the delayed 5 flights of airline A, 2 flights of airline B, 2 flights of airline C and 1 flight of airline D delayed due to airline scheduling or ATC delays?

Or if Airline A has 25 flights scheduled, but cancels three of them and replaces them with 8 regional jet flights - going from 25 to 30 total - is it an ATC or a schedule issue?

The airlines will argue long and hard that it's an ATC issue causing the delay, not a bad schedule or an airline solvable problem.

That does not even considered the domino effect of arrivals when several airlines together have more landings scheduled in a certain time period than the airport can physically handle.

Neither the airlines nor the US government want to implement a slot system where airlines are allowed only so many landings and takeoffs per time period. That puts a tremendous anti-competitive restriction on the airline's ability to respond to market demands.

It puts the US government back into regulating air travel.

But that's the only solution for some airports in my opinion.
 
Analog
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:09 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 2):
If airline A schedules 30 departures in a certain hour at JFK and airlines B, C, D also schedule 30 departures for that same hour - but the airport can only take off 50 aircraft in that hour.

Irrespective of the cause of the delay, in this case many flights will be delayed. After a month or two the airlines will know more realistic departure and arrival times, and thus are able to adjust their schedules to reflect this. If it means adding an hour to the scheduled time, so be it; it's reality.
 
trekster
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 3):

Which will in turn create more problems. Connecting passengers will not have enough MCT, which will affect alot of people, even with just an hour time change.
Where does the time go???
 
Falcon84
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:40 pm

There goes your airfares increasing. What? You think the airliners are going to absorb this nonsense?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
burnsie28
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:19 pm

I think its a bad idea to fine airlines for delays, because its going to cause them to cut corners so that they don't have to pay the fines.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 6):
I think its a bad idea to fine airlines for delays, because its going to cause them to cut corners so that they don't have to pay the fines.

They'll have to pay the fines. They'll just pass the cost along to consumers.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:19 pm

And who will be enforcing this 'rule' and who will the airlines have to pay the 'fine' to? I don't personally think this will fly, it will probably only do more harm than good.

And come to think of it, where did you get this info, B777A340Fan??? You failed to provide a source.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
n710ps
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:23 pm

This is nonsense on all levels. Number one, it is going to drive fares up very high at cities like Chicago, Atlanta, New York metro, Boston, PHL, DCA and MIA. It also risks that airlines are going to put more pressure on employees to cut corners to make sure that they get the "on time" and that is unsafe. Than again I have never heard of a smart idea from those idiots in the F.A.A.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
rfields5421
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
And come to think of it, where did you get this info, B777A340Fan??? You failed to provide a source.

It's been on the news across the US the past few days - but buried far down under the fire stories.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21443323
 
bullpitt
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:11 pm

Hi all

Only a Dumb A** politician could think this up. Who will they blame when an airplane goes tec but the company decides to fly anyway to avoid the fine and there's an accident. Shit happens and the sooner people realise that the better. I can understand that if a certain company continuously has mayor delays in an airport where all the other companies operate without them. The authorities must look into it. But, can the companies fine the authority if it's proven that is their fault for bad management of the installations? Aviation is not running a bus service, machines and men have to be 100% in order to fly but if you start to put pressure we will have accidents, then we'll see who they blame.  worried   banghead 
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
Analog
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting Trekster (Reply 4):

Which will in turn create more problems. Connecting passengers will not have enough MCT, which will affect alot of people, even with just an hour time change.

Please explain how more realistic schedules would increase the likelihood of missing a flight. More realistic schedules could allow a decrease in the MCT, as the chance of a passenger arriving "late" is decreased.
 
AirOne
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:36 pm

This to me screams of the NW and B6 fiascos of sitting on the tarmac. A flight is on time as long as it pushes from the gate within 15 minutes of scheduled block time. This seems like people would just sit out on the taxiways to avoid fines.

AirOne
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 10):

After reading the article, the only problem remains is if an airline is fined for delays, the airline won't care. They will simply tack on the charges onto the consumer. So the airline really pays $0 for the fines.

Another great way to blame the consumer. Is this going to really work? My answer: no. It's just going to create more problems than what we have now.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Analog
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 11):
Who will they blame when an airplane goes tec but the company decides to fly anyway to avoid the fine and there's an accident.

The airline, that's who.

One cancellation or delay because of a mechanical issue would not result in a fine unless the flight was already chronically late.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
My answer: no. It's just going to create more problems than what we have now.

I fully agree - the only ones happy with such a situation will be the lawyers who get to make more money arguing what caused the actual delays.
 
flyf15
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:28 pm

The way I see it, there are many many delays out there... mechanical, weather, etc that are very much appropriate. They're not fun, but they're there for safety. Sometimes things can't be planned for ahead of time. Bad weather, something on the plane breaks, a certain situation is occurring, etc.

Personally, on my flights, my airplane is not moving one single inch until I am 100% convinced the flight will be conducted 100% legally and 100% safely. I'm not going to put any pressure on mechanics, dispatchers, etc to get their job done quicker for an on-time departure. I want them to take their time and do things right, and I will do the same.... no matter how long of a delay it causes. I leave once I'm able, but I'm not going to go a minute before that. If fines were created for airlines for delays, well, too bad for them, its not going to change a single thing about the way I run my operation. When it comes to doing things legal and safe, dollar signs never cross my thoughts, they're not something that I let affect my decisions.

Sure, there are other sorts of delays that airlines cause for themselves and they sure as heck should be punished for them. Not staffing themselves well enough, scheduling too many flights, etc. They should have to pay for this, and pay hard. But, these fines shouldn't go to the government... they should go back to the passengers. $1000 fine for a 15 minute late departure on a DC-9? Each of the 100 pax gets $10. Not $10 of credit, not a $10 voucher, not $10 worth of miles... they get $10 of money.
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:43 pm

As much as I'm against reregulation (even in minor forms)... I like the idea of fines for flights that are delayed more than 50% of the time. Weren't there a handful of flights that were delayed 100% of the time? I have to wonder if the airlines are keeping the schedule the same either for crew scheduling reasons (then they can take advantage of irops limitations when the "delay" occurs) or in order to entice pax onto a certain flights with the belief that they'll arrive faster than if they flew on the competition. A flight I take often, B61079 JFK-RIC has a 19% on time rate, but if they padded the schedule by 30 minutes, it'd be on time somewhere around 75%. Just an example of how the fines would give the airlines the extra push they need to have realistic schedules.
.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 3):
Irrespective of the cause of the delay, in this case many flights will be delayed. After a month or two the airlines will know more realistic departure and arrival times, and thus are able to adjust their schedules to reflect this.

While your reasoning is common sense, common sense is one scare commodity among airlines. They do not want to adjust their schedule to reflect "more realistic" times, because they do not want that 75-minute connecting time between flight A and flight B to become a 120-minute connection, whereas the nearest competitor still advertises it as a 90-minute connection... Given that very few passengers overall actually bother to compare the punctuality of different flights, guess what will happen to the carrier that advertises true connecting times as opposed to the ones sticking to less realistic ones ?

Right now, there is very little in the way of incentive for carriers to do their utmost to ensure timely arrival and departure at crowded hubs. I'm not a big fan of fines because I think it would have to be riddled with exemptions in order to be fair (sometimes a weather delay really is a weather delay, sometimes a weather delay on a 5 pm flight due to a 5 am thunderstorm is just lousy planning) that there would also be so many loopholes as to render the remedy meaningless. Personally, I'd prefer a capacity cap at crowded airports based on historical records (rather than a by-the-book optimal conditions estimate). Obviously, that also entails the need to come up with a mechanism to ensure that fortress hubs do not become one-airline airports to safeguard some minimum competition as well. In other words, not easy to put in place...
All Hail King Donald
 
BoeingBoy
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:12 pm

Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish - Fine the MTA when the train is late - who where when how - pure Dribble
10% is the best we can do
 
Analog
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
After reading the article, the only problem remains is if an airline is fined for delays, the airline won't care. They will simply tack on the charges onto the consumer. So the airline really pays $0 for the fines.

By that logic the airline never pays for anything; the charges are always tacked on the consumer.

Of course the airlines care. A million bucks is a million bucks. Fares can't just be increased without losing sales to competitors.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 21):
Fares can't just be increased without losing sales to competitors.

If they're all getting fined for something, they'll ALL pass on the cost, no?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 21):

They'll all still pass on the costs onto the consumers, Analog. You know this just as well as anyone else. Its easy to do it. If airlines are required to pay user fees, they tack it onto the consumer, and they actually do it. If they can do that, then they can do this proposal.

One airline does it, the other airlines will follow suit. I can envision a new fee called a "Delay Fee" (Maybe a code 'DF') at probably $2 a pax on top of the other fees currently collected on all tkts.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
b777a340fan
Topic Author
Posts: 675
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
After reading the article, the only problem remains is if an airline is fined for delays, the airline won't care. They will simply tack on the charges onto the consumer. So the airline really pays $0 for the fines.

The airlines will care. For one, passengers don't want to pay more than they already are, if they start paying for ridiculous late charges, then they can easily switch to another airline who won't make them pay it. So bottom line, they can't afford to lose customers.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 17):
I want them to take their time and do things right, and I will do the same.... no matter how long of a delay it causes. I leave once I'm able, but I'm not going to go a minute before that. I

AMEN!

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 2):
If airline A schedules 30 departures in a certain hour at JFK and airlines B, C, D also schedule 30 departures for that same hour - but the airport can only take off 50 aircraft in that hour.

Are the delayed 5 flights of airline A, 2 flights of airline B, 2 flights of airline C and 1 flight of airline D delayed due to airline scheduling or ATC delays?

Airline schedules are a very complex system, it's planned according to rotations of aircrafts/personnel/passenger connections/etc. With dozens of airlines planning and changing their schedules constantly, it is not their responsibility to think "oh, airline B already has that time, so I'm going to move my flight an hour later". There should be a governing body (i.e. FAA or the airport itself) that says, here are X amounts of slots and that's it. No bending no cheating. How could fines resolve anything?
 
Analog
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):

They'll all still pass on the costs onto the consumers, Analog. You know this just as well as anyone else. Its easy to do it. If airlines are required to pay user fees, they tack it onto the consumer, and they actually do it. If they can do that, then they can do this proposal.

One airline does it, the other airlines will follow suit.

Perhaps one or more airlines could be innovative and have the majority of flights depart/arrive within 15 minutes of the scheduled time? If weather and/or ATC delays occur more than 50% of the time, they are to be expected and can be partially accounted for in the schedule (such that a flight is usually on time). Then no fines; more competitive.

Or are all airlines incapable of making schedules that are followed the majority of the time?

In any case, consumers already absorb the cost of unrealistic schedules, just in more indirect ways than slightly higher fares.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 24):
Airline schedules are a very complex system, it's planned according to rotations of aircrafts/personnel/passenger connections/etc. With dozens of airlines planning and changing their schedules constantly, it is not their responsibility to think "oh, airline B already has that time, so I'm going to move my flight an hour later".

It may not be A's job to move their flights to accommodate B, but it is their job to accept reality and schedule flights realistically.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 25):
If weather and/or ATC delays occur more than 50% of the time, they are to be expected and can be partially accounted for in the schedule (such that a flight is usually on time).

I disagree.

1) ATC delays are out of the airline's control. The last time I checked, ATC is a part of the federal government, is it not?
2) The airlines is not god nor mother nature. Therefore, controlling the weather is out of the airline's hands.

So in your theory, the airlines will be blamed for the two things you mentioned? C'mon, Analog. Be realistic here. Airlines have said over and over that they are not responsible for WX or ATC. It states that in the Contract of Carriage, does it not?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 6):
I think its a bad idea to fine airlines for delays, because its going to cause them to cut corners so that they don't have to pay the fines.

If the (proposed) fines are actually enforced, it might actually cause airlines to get real about scheduling their flights. If I were late for work half the time (or even 25% of the time) because I failed to be realistic about my commute time, it wouldn't be long before I would be fined 100% of my income, if you know what I mean. And I don't fancy for a nanosecond that "insufficient capacity of outdated infrastructure" or weather or traffic control (long waits at stop-and-go lights) or anything else would be acceptable excuses.

Why should airlines be exempted from consequences for delays caused to 100s of thousands (if not millions) of pax due to the airlines' practice of habitually scheduling flights without regard for the realities effecting their on-time performances?



[Edited 2007-10-25 23:33:50]
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Thread starter):
that have literally JUST recovered from the 9/11 attacks.

I

9/11 was just a convenient scapegoat for most airlines..the industry was becoming victim to its own mismanagement well before the radomes hit the windows. Businesses that had their data, personnel, and office space destroyed were able to mostly recover much sooner than the airlines...I really wish they would stop using 9/11 as an excuse. I have my own issues with B6 but they were able to rebound well after the whole thing, and not only was their IPO supposed to be issued on 9/11, but they're based out of the city it took place in! In some ways, I wonder if a legacy or two would have gone under WITHOUT 9/11 since they may not have gotten those huge bailouts!

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 27):

If the (proposed) fines are actually enforced, it might actually cause airlines to get real about scheduling their flights. If I were late for work half the time (or even 25% of the time) because I failed to be realistic about my commute time, it wouldn't be long before I would be fined 100% of my income,

That is, by far, the most sensible, logical, and easy to relate to explanation of the situation I have seen to date.
.
 
FL1TPA
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:05 am

Another aspect of airline delays, especially during peak periods (0700-0900 / 1600-1800), is that the market has created a demand for a specific number of flights during those times.

If an airline decides that they want to reduce delayed flights at congested airports during those periods, they must rescedule departues out of the peaks or cancel some flights. Both options send customers scrambling to book with competitors that have a flight at a more convienient time regardless of the flight's on-time performance. "Oh, this flight is the right price and exactly when I need it but it was only on-time 20% last month... ah well, I'm sure I'll be ontime."

So airlines schedule as many flights as the bookings and equipment will support - not what the airport can handle. If some are delayed some days, oh well. The airline reasons that all flights cannot be delayed every day. Thus many airline operations will rotate delays between flights leaving at the same time during peak periods from day to day. "We delayed flt. 75 yesterday for the ATC congestion hold, so today we'll delay flt. 76."

Bottom line: delays have an excellent chance of happening at crowded airports during peak travel periods even in perfect weather. You roll the dice with your on-time performance when you travel during these times at these airports. This is one of the many (and largely great) things about the free market, deregulated, capitalist airline industry we know today.

FL1TPA
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue."
 
Maverick623
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting AirOne (Reply 13):
A flight is on time as long as it pushes from the gate within 15 minutes of scheduled block time.

Wrong. A flight is considered on-time if it ARRIVES no later than 14 minutes past it's scheduled block time.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 520
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:03 pm

Here is an example of one government agency or politician who doesn't know how the FAA works.

Take a BOS-EWR example. A 2pm departure from BOS is chronically late and the FAA warns airline A of a fine if it doesn't take action to make it on-time.

The airline complies by what many on here suggested and INCREASED the block time from 1h08m to 1h57m. (Actual airtime is about 40 min.)

OK... it should be on-time now right? WRONG

Lets see why this flight is delayed...
crew? No crew is there on-time every day.
A/C late to arrive ? NO a/c is there
ATC - Bingo! The flight in question gets caught with a EWR ground stop and/or Ground Delay Program.

OK now why doesn't the increased block time help? It actually makes the passengers arrive LATER then if the airline kept the original schedule. You ask how can that be.

When an airport goes into a ground delay program it assigns an "arrival slot" based on the ARRIVAL TIME of the flight. It then backs up in time for the AIRBORNE flight time. Using that figure you receive a "wheels up time". The system doesn't care what you scheduled departure time is. The system doesn't give you credit for increasing your block time. You actually get punished for increasing the block time.

So until the FAA can increase capacity we will have delays.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:16 pm

"You gotta learn Rain Man, the FAA stands for Gettin Fu*ked Again and Again"

"Bear" to "Rain Man"
TRACON by Paul McElroy
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richierich
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
They'll have to pay the fines. They'll just pass the cost along to consumers.

I know that you are correct. But you don't think this will stop the government, do you? Any time the government can essentially rollout a 'tax' that doesn't appear to look like a tax, especially when it is veiled with the notion that it somehow helps consumers, politicians jump all over it.
None shall pass!!!!
 
access-air
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RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:22 pm

Guys, it simply comes down to the fact that the airlines think its cheaper to farm out their shorter length flights to a regional rather than run their own metal in a market. They let the regional schedule flights all day long in EVERY market and THAT my friends, contributes to all these delays....How many different ways does it have to be said withoiut someone trying to find the answer in expanding an airport.... At what period in time does expansion stop and when does the airspace just become too crowded....

We are way over due for a mid air collision over a major airport like ORD JFK or LAX....I dont like to speak like this, but the Major airlines need to start flying their own metal and stop the "Regional Hourly Shuttles" into every town that they think cant support a 737 of A320/319......

Crab sakes....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5933
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 24):
Airline schedules are a very complex system, it's planned according to rotations of aircrafts/personnel/passenger connections/etc. With dozens of airlines planning and changing their schedules constantly, it is not their responsibility to think "oh, airline B already has that time, so I'm going to move my flight an hour later"

Yes and no. When airline A knows from experience that adding another flight in the critical time block will result in the flight being late due to airport congestion - they are responsible for creating the delay situation. That will be impossible to prove in a court of law - but it is reality.

Quoting FL1TPA (Reply 29):
Another aspect of airline delays, especially during peak periods (0700-0900 / 1600-1800), is that the market has created a demand for a specific number of flights during those times.

I would disagree - the market has helped create a demand - but the airline marketing departments have pushed those concepts be setting unrealistic expectations that the flights will arrive on time.

Also - the demand is NOT for a specific number of flights - but for a specific number of SEATS. In many cases four 50 seat RJ's are used in a short period of time rather than one 200 seat larger aircraft. While the airlines will tell you it's about flexibility for the customers, that's pure BS. It's about using lower cost crews who work for regional airlines and not the mainline.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 30):
A flight is considered on-time if it ARRIVES no later than 14 minutes past it's scheduled block time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't the arrival mean landing - not arrival at the gate ?

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 24):
There should be a governing body (i.e. FAA or the airport itself) that says, here are X amounts of slots and that's it.

I fully agree that is the only solution to the over scheduling issue. But it's anti-competitive, it takes flexibility away from the airlines, and it sets up a extremely cumbersome and expensive system which is perfectly suited for abuse.


The really SAD part of this whole argument in the US right now is the lack of context.

Yes - there are airline created scheduling/ capacity issues at a few airports. But no one is trying to educate the public about the real reason for the terrible performance this year - the weather. Anyway you want to look at it - this has been a really bad year for flying weather in the US. It has cost the airlines and their passengers hundreds of millions of dollars.

I've had exactly two flights this year which I've taken which were on-time. All of the other delays were weather. There seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the concept that if my plane is coming from Baltimore to Louisville to St Louis - and lightning is stopping takeoffs at Baltimore - that weather is the reason for my delay in the sunny city of Louisville.

The feds studied thousands of flights and found only 26 - TWENTY SIX - as having a potential of abusive manipulation by the airline.

How minsicule of a percentage is that.
 
0newair0
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:21 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:07 pm

I believe your title should read "Airlines being fined for CHRONIC delays" as in all flights that are ontime less than 70% of the time.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
0newair0
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:21 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 11):
Who will they blame when an airplane goes tec but the company decides to fly anyway

that is an airline that you shouldnt be flying in the first place.

[Edited 2007-10-26 08:16:19]
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 35):
Please correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't the arrival mean landing - not arrival at the gate ?

Ontime is when it arrives at the gate and the door is opened less then 15 min after orig scheduled arrival time.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 35):
The feds studied thousands of flights and found only 26 - TWENTY SIX - as having a potential of abusive manipulation by the airline

Yes that is a tiny fraction. And some of them is because equipment is delayed earlier in the day and there is no point in the a/c rotation to "catch up", That is in the airlines control and could be fixed.

My point is when the airline has the equipment and crew ready for an ontime flight and get delayed everyday for a ground delay program. Like my posting earlier illustrated. That is beyond the airlines control.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:40 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 26):
I disagree.

1) ATC delays are out of the airline's control. The last time I checked, ATC is a part of the federal government, is it not?
2) The airlines is not god nor mother nature. Therefore, controlling the weather is out of the airline's hands.

So in your theory, the airlines will be blamed for the two things you mentioned? C'mon, Analog. Be realistic here.

I'm saying that the airlines should be realistic and accept reality, just like they expect of their employees.

Would an airline accept an employee's excuse that he/she was late for work because of traffic, weather, etc. if the employee was late for said reasons the majority of the time? Of course not, the airline would fire that employee.

Just because things are beyond an airline's control, it does not mean that the airline cannot be expected to deal with those things. An extreme example: the laws of physics are beyond an airline's control; we don't blame airlines for the laws of physics, but we do expect the airlines to deal with them and schedule flights accordingly. Delays that occur the majority of the time are, by most definitions, normal operating conditions.

If the weather and ATC conditions are such that a flight only arrives on time 15% of the time, what's wrong with expecting the airline to adjust the schedule to accommodate reality? If delays are normal and expected, then publishing a schedule that does not account for the normal delays is tantamount to false advertising.

We're not talking about once a year type weather events, we are talking about things that occur more often than not. We're also only talking about a tiny percentage of flights. Any talk of airfares increasing because of [potential] fines for these flights is garbage. A few million bucks of fines over more than ten million flights is trivial, especially if those fines can be avoided by rescheduling a few flights. Talk about fare increases is nothing but fear mongering.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 39):
If delays are normal and expected, then publishing a schedule that does not account for the normal delays is tantamount to false advertising.

I can't speak for other airlines, but CO does do that. Look at the block times scheduled on some of our CLE-EWR/CLE-LGA flights. They're almost two hours, for a flight that, once airborn, is about one hour. Why? Because we KNOW that ATC will raise its ugly head more often than not.

I worked in CO Ops at CLE for 14 months. Almost like clockwork, virtually every day, around 2:15 to 2:30, EWR went into a Ground Stop. The reason we got from ATC is "Overhead volumn", meaning they couldn't handle the traffic over/around EWR and couldn't slot our flight in. Often, it was lifted, but often it wasn't, because the current ATC system wasn't made to handle this much traffic. So, even with a 2-hour block time, we see delays.

And to ask the airlines to voluntarily cut back their schedules-meaning cutting back their revenue-isn't the answer. Updating the system is. If the demand is there for these flights, but we have an ATC system that cannot handle it, that's the government's responsibility, not the airlines. Why doesn't someone "fine" the government for not updating the system?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
I can't speak for other airlines, but CO does do that. Look at the block times scheduled on some of our CLE-EWR/CLE-LGA flights. They're almost two hours, for a flight that, once airborn, is about one hour. Why? Because we KNOW that ATC will raise its ugly head more often than not.

I worked in CO Ops at CLE for 14 months. Almost like clockwork, virtually every day, around 2:15 to 2:30, EWR went into a Ground Stop. The reason we got from ATC is "Overhead volumn", meaning they couldn't handle the traffic over/around EWR and couldn't slot our flight in. Often, it was lifted, but often it wasn't, because the current ATC system wasn't made to handle this much traffic. So, even with a 2-hour block time, we see delays.

And to ask the airlines to voluntarily cut back their schedules-meaning cutting back their revenue-isn't the answer. Updating the system is. If the demand is there for these flights, but we have an ATC system that cannot handle it, that's the government's responsibility, not the airlines. Why doesn't someone "fine" the government for not updating the system?

The problem in your example isn't ATC, its the airlines still. Imagine a 6 lane highway.... most of the day and throughout the night, its easy to drive at or above the speedlimit on. At rush hour, its a parking lot. The airlines are creating their own artificial rush hours. No matter how much traffic the airport can handle, its still going to be a parking lot at certain parts of the day if the airlines insist on scheduling all their flights at the same time. All these airports, even MDW, LGA, JFK, etc have TONS of excess capacity... you can find it between hub banks.

My airport that I operate out of has simultaneous parallel arrivals and departures. During hub banks, we have up to 30 mile finals stacked up for both arrival runways and 15+ planes in line for each departure runway. Between hub banks, theres one controller handling all the ground frequencies and one controller handling all the tower frequencies.... and it seems like a ghost town.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:05 pm

Hmm...

The last times airlines handled their delay problem by tacking on more time to the scheduled flights.

Before, and SMF-LAX flight had a scheduled 1 hr block time. The airlines 'improved' their numbers by adding 15 minutes to the scheduled time.

Why would it be different now?

I would bet that some SMF-LAX times would get increased to 1.5 hrs. The airline would then claim an improved on-schedule statistic, and the government would claim that their initiative worked.

 sarcastic 
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
If the demand is there for these flights, but we have an ATC system that cannot handle it, that's the government's responsibility, not the airlines. Why doesn't someone "fine" the government for not updating the system?

Hmmmm....I'm in favor of that! Aye!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
b777a340fan
Topic Author
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 35):
But it's anti-competitive, it takes flexibility away from the airlines, and it sets up a extremely cumbersome and expensive system which is perfectly suited for abuse.

It will only become anti-competitive when one airline is given preference over the other, but, with the right checks and balance, that shouldn't happen.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):

And to ask the airlines to voluntarily cut back their schedules-meaning cutting back their revenue-isn't the answer. Updating the system is. If the demand is there for these flights, but we have an ATC system that cannot handle it, that's the government's responsibility, not the airlines.

Why don't the airlines get off their collective @sses and form some sort of group to tell the government what to do with ATC. Research the problem, come up with a possible solution (or solutions), and go to the FAA and say "Please do this."

This is obviously not their job, but it's in their best interests to do it.

Pardon my idealism.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5933
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 45):
Why don't the airlines get off their collective @sses and form some sort of group to tell the government what to do with ATC.

They have - their official line is that there is no problem with the airline schedules. The majority of the problems are caused by the excessive growth of private bizjet travel and the number of bizjets clogging up the system.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3046
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:14 pm

The only way you are going to eliminate delays is to reduce the amount of traffic into the congested airports. One solution would be to eliminate the hub system and have more direct flights avoiding airports like JFK, ATL, and ORD.  twocents 
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 47):
One solution would be to eliminate the hub system and have more direct flights avoiding airports like JFK, ATL, and ORD.

Airlines have plenty of direct flights, that stop at hubs and change aircraft.  Smile
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2917
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Airlines To Be Fined For Delays...

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
Why doesn't someone "fine" the government for not updating the system?

Does this mean that commuters should also be able to "fine" the government for not updating and maintaining our freeways and roadway systems to allow for unimepeded travel at posted speed limits (or higher Wink) during all hours of the day, including peak commute times, at least 80-85% of the time? Wink

Tongue-in-cheek aside, I will pose the question once again, in another way: why is it that airlines should be exempted (unlike the rest of us) from being required to plan and schedule our affairs around the realities of what is, rather than the "more perfect world" we wish for? Moreover, the "new improved" ATC system envisioned by the U.S. legacies and touted as the "fix" for their unrealistic, irresponsible scheduling practices is mostly a pipedream; whatever efficiencies gained will be quickly nullified by legacy airline scheduling run even further amuk. Based on the legacies' track record, you can take that to the proverbial bank. Wonder what they will use as their scapegoat of choice when that happens?

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