ORDagent
Topic Author
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:28 pm

Will Midamerica ever get any level of sustained pax service? IIRC the airport was planned when STL was looking like it would hit capacity when TW was alive. Does anybody know what the loads on Allegiant are like. I'm also willing to bet that Skybus is looking at the airport. I'd like to check the airport out one day but I'm not driving from Chicago to see a new terminal!
 
TWFirst
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
but I'm not driving from Chicago to see a new terminal!

Then take the train!  Smile Amtrak to STL, then MetroLink to Shiloh, with connecting bus service (I think). Should only take you 8 hours or so  Silly

But to answer your question.... no. BLV will most likely remain what it is. Too many factors going against it.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Cubsrule
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
I'm also willing to bet that Skybus is looking at the airport.

I suggested that in another thread. Getting to Lambert from the Illinois side of the metro area can be a pain in the ass, especially with a lot of luggage (where taking Metrolink wouldn't be such a good option).

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 1):
then MetroLink to Shiloh, with connecting bus service (I think).

They've been kicking around the idea of extending Metrolink to BLV. SX might be the catalyst for this. They've shown (at GSO) that they're willing to look at inventive incentives.
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KarlB737
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:22 pm

Maybe MidAmerica would be a good bet for Skybus. Anyone agree?
 
chase
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 1):
Too many factors going against it.

I moved away from St. Louis 13 years ago, so I'm not too familiar with issues regarding BLV. Mind listing some of these factors?
If I had to guess, I'd say a) it's small, b) Joe Public may not be aware of its existence (easily fixed by advertising), c) it's in Illinois and 80% of the metro population lives in Missouri and considers "Illinois" to be almost a curse word since that's where East St. Louis, cornfields, and the Cubs are.
But...the metro East population is growing quickly, no? For those folks (and people farther East, like Mt. Vernon), the drive to Lambert is a long one. Also, it sounds like BLV has good or at least decent public transportation connectivity?
So...is it just an issue of building awareness and then critical mass? Or are you saying there are other issues afoot, like crappy facilities and/or management, no money for improvements/advertising, lack of land to expand onto someday, or...?
 
Cubsrule
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting Chase (Reply 4):
So...is it just an issue of building awareness and then critical mass?

Pretty much, IMO. BLV will never be STL, but that was never the intent. It's just that there's no incentive to go there with most of the money and most of the population in Missouri. ZO was a great little carrier and probably the right sort of carrier for BLV; it filled a niche (albeit with uber-high CASM FRJs). There's no reason another airline couldn't make a small operation work there.

Quoting Chase (Reply 4):
Also, it sounds like BLV has good or at least decent public transportation connectivity?

It's well connected both to Metrolink and to I-64, much better than most secondary airports in small or medium-sized cities.

If SX wants to come to metro St. Louis, it seems like being the only game in town (save G4) at BLV is much smarter than dealing with WN at STL.

[Edited 2007-10-26 08:40:20]
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stlgph
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:40 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
They've shown (at GSO) that they're willing to look at inventive incentives.

there aren't too many initiatives to be offered at Belleville. the airport already offers hella low landing and operational fees. it's something like a buck per 1000 pounds of landed weight. it's done well for Allegiant ... i understand it's been a good station in and out of the airport to both Orlando and Las Vegas (i used it many times when living in St. Louis). when Trans Meridian was flying there, they had planned to go daily into Orlando ... bookings were high ... Allegiant's never gotten into that many frequencies to Orlando with the exceptional seasonal three-weekly runs.

if Champion Air and USA 3000 *werent* at Lambert ... I could see Allegiant increasing frequencies and/or starting St. Petersburg service.

as for Skybus ... well ... it's the type of airport that would fit their model ... Columbus would work a lot better than Greensboro...
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
access-air
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:57 pm

I would say that if AA would have kept the TWA level of flights operating out of STL instead of pulling the boner that they did and downsizing it so much....then you might see a legit reason for smaller airlines like Allegiant etc. expanding even more at BLV.....I flew Great Plains from MDW thru to TUL back in 2003. The airport was a very large facitily that looked like Dulles Airport did when it first opened...Like a ghost town....
Lots of room for a lot of flights to many places!!!!!!
Oh well, time will tell.....

Access-Air
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777STL
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St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:41 pm

Actually it seems, BLV has given up on trying to attract more pax service. I'm not saying they wouldn't accept more pax service, they certainly would and would welcome it, but I don't think that's where they're directing their marketing efforts as of late.

Lately, it seems they've been trying to fashion themselves as some type of "world cargo hub", even going as far as to send execs on regular trips to East Asia, trying to drum up cargo contracts. They did actually have have a one off, series of flights several months ago, DC10 cargo planes delivering plant seed from Peru, I think it was. But, I think they'll have as much luck becoming a cargo hub as they will becoming a pax hub.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Pretty much, IMO. BLV will never be STL, but that was never the intent.

No, but on the same token, I don't think they'll ever be what they intended to be either though. Back in the heyday of TW and STL, BLV had grandiose plans to market itself as a reliever for STL, back when space was short. Sort of what MDW is to ORD, obviously on a much smaller scale. Then obviously, TW was bought out, AA rolled back the flights in 2003, and STL is a shadow of it's former self. It's difficult to relieve something when it doesn't need relieving.

I don't see BLV ever getting anything more than small operations from third tier airlines(like G4), especially since KSTL has essentially an entire concourse vacant. It's just too far from anything significant, at least not as convenient as STL, and the Metro East area isn't strong enough to support its own airport. Really, you'd only be pulling people from the Belleville, O'Fallon, and Shiloh areas and maybe a bit further down south. Anything farther north than that in the metro east, and STL is as close as BLV is. I'd rather fight 270 traffic than 64 traffic myself.
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Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 8):
It's difficult to relieve something when it doesn't need relieving.

Indeed, which is why SX is the only carrier I see having a shot of starting it. Another ZO, sure, but probably not a carrier besides SX of any size.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
toltommy
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
I suggested that in another thread. Getting to Lambert from the Illinois side of the metro area can be a pain in the ass, especially with a lot of luggage (where taking Metrolink wouldn't be such a good option).

Therein lies the problem, just in reverse. It's too hard for the Missourians to get over to BLV. Especially if you live outside the 270 perimeter in St. charles, etc. Why would you drive by STL? Similar to the situation we have in TOL. Folks won't drive past DTW to use TOL.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 3):
Maybe MidAmerica would be a good bet for Skybus. Anyone agree?

Nope. Again, too far away from most of the STL population. Given all the open gates on D concourse in STL, I would say that STL is the place for SX. If the right destinations are chosen, WN isn't really competition. STL could be very good for SX, if they can get in at the right cost.
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BR715-A1-30
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
I'd like to check the airport out one day but I'm not driving from Chicago to see a new terminal!

Good choice men!!! It is nothing special really. I have pretty good pictures of the exterior if anyone wants to email me, I'll be happy to send them. The interior is nothing special either. 2 ticket counters, an information desk, and stairs to the second level. 2 jetbridges, 1 on each side, and I think 4 gates (2 stairs).
Puhdiddle
 
stlgph
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 10):
It's too hard for the Missourians to get over to BLV. Especially if you live outside the 270 perimeter in St. charles, etc. Why would you drive by STL? Similar to the situation we have in TOL. Folks won't drive past DTW to use TOL.

give someone what they want for the right fare and money and they'll go for it. people in Missouri -do- drive over to Belleville.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 10):
I would say that STL is the place for SX

!!!!!!!!!!

.... you sure about that?
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toltommy
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
give someone what they want for the right fare and money and they'll go for it. people in Missouri -do- drive over to Belleville.

Well since that airport opened, nobody has done what you suggested. Might have looked good on paper, but follks on both sides of the river have voted with their feet and wallets.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
.... you sure about that?

Did you read all of my post? Let me say it again for you. Given all of the open gates on D, there's plenty of space for Skybus to come in. Yes, the other airlines would try to make life difficult. But if STL was interested in attracting Skybus, and could offer the space at the right price, it could work.
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stlgph
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Did you read all of my post? Let me say it again for you. Given all of the open gates on D, there's plenty of space for Skybus to come in. Yes, the other airlines would try to make life difficult. But if STL was interested in attracting Skybus, and could offer the space at the right price, it could work.

yeah, i read it. it's nice you can see the space is there, but have you read the fine details about operational costs in and out of Lambert and the fine print details about their nine-month waiver program?

plus if you're going to fly into Columbus you're going to fly right along a route with American and Southwest on it. and when you're flying on a pricing structure where 20 seats sold puts you into the red automatically when flying in and out of Lambert, and another 10 at the break even point ... and i'm referring to only the costs of getting passengers on the plane ... that's before fuel, landing fees, etc.

if Skybus wants to come in because it's nice and roomy ... that's wonderful, let 'em. it'd be a great massive way for them to bleed thousands of bucks with each and every departure right before our very eyes.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
give someone what they want for the right fare and money and they'll go for it. people in Missouri -do- drive over to Belleville.

Well since that airport opened, nobody has done what you suggested. Might have looked good on paper, but follks on both sides of the river have voted with their feet and wallets.

so you're saying that nobody ever drives over across the river from Missouri to hop on an Allegiant plane for a nice vacation package to Orlando or Las Vegas?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:05 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 3):
Maybe MidAmerica would be a good bet for Skybus. Anyone agree?

As long as Skybus did P2P to the Florida, north and east, and maybe MKE/MCI. Flying to CMH no, too close.

I recall the first time seeinlg BLV from the air (on a LAX-CVG flight), I thought, WTF? That would be a good secondary or even primary airport. It has long, widely set runways, no development near it. Why isn't it used more? I know STL was once among our busiest, but the experience in the airport wasn't all that pleasant. Had TWA survived and even flourished, developing BLV as a major airport and putting proper transit options into the city, and it would have been great.
 
National757
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
Does anybody know what the loads on Allegiant are like

From what I'm told, BLV does fairly well. It's no Bellingham for Allegiant, but it holds its own. G4 has served BLV for a few years, so one would have to assume Allegiant's has been at least moderately successful at MidAmerica. FATFlyer might have more information about Allegiant's performance at MidAmerica.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
but follks on both sides of the river have voted with their feet and wallets

Yes they have  Smile Folks on both sides of the river enjoy nonstop service to Orlando Sanford and Las Vegas from BLV as Gavin has already said.
 
stlgph
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting National757 (Reply 16):

it's been full boats every time i flew in and out of there to Las Vegas on them ... with the exception of one time ... April of 2006 when they only had 115 or so seats sold on a Thursday LAS - BLV.
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Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 10):
It's too hard for the Missourians to get over to BLV. Especially if you live outside the 270 perimeter in St. charles, etc.

But the majority of the metro area isn't in St. Charles. I live in Richmond Heights. I can get to STL in 15-20 minutes with no traffic. But it's only about half an hour to BLV. And while it would take somewhat longer to take Metrolink to BLV, the time difference is probably about the same as driving. If I was going to save $50 (plus the parking savings, and parking at STL isn't cheap), I'd drive over to BLV for sure.

A similar argument can be made for all of St. Louis (city). That's about 300,000 people. BLV is probably MORE convenient from South County. Depending on where you are in West County, it's a wash, and depending on where you are in North County (and proximity to 70 or 270), it's definitely farther to BLV, but not really that inconvenient.

If you don't think that people will drive past one airport to fly from another, you need to talk to all the loyal WN fliers in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. The price needs to be right, but people will certainly drive a little bit to save money.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 15):
As long as Skybus did P2P to the Florida, north and east, and maybe MKE/MCI. Flying to CMH no, too close.

I think all of those could work. GYY-BLV would also probably print money, should SX open GYY.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
stlgph
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):

It seems hard to believe but I know Allegiant at Belleville has attracted flyers from even Cape and Jeff City. Which could be part of the reason why they are starting Marion ... Cape ... not Jeff City, of course.

I think COMO would be a good airport for them to try....
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Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 19):
I think COMO would be a good airport for them to try....

G4 or SX?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
stlgph
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):

Allegiant.

Allegiant has held up very well against Champion Air, basically offering the same thing from Lambert Airport. they've done some *smart* marketing ... as you said ... going after the south county crowd ... with ads in the suburban journal. they've even put ads in the campus papers for WUSTL, Webster, UMSL, SLU, SIUE, etc. ... filling the planes full during their spring break periods, and often attracting some college fliers in the off season as well ... such as May ... when the normal folk are busy with graduations and preparing for them and the college kids are free to be.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Pretty much, IMO. BLV will never be STL

Agreed.

The metro St. Louis area (which includes that evil, East St Louis and cornfields so ignorantly referenced above) is built into the economy of the metro area. There is transportation, hotels and such that all go into supporting a major airport.

The MidAmerica airport will probably close in time. It's too far for people IN St. Louis to commute to and there isn't enough of a population on the Illinois side to support it. IMHO
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Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 21):
Allegiant.

I figured, just checking. The question is whether COU would cannibalize BLV. I don't think it would, except for (maybe) people in Wentzville and similar areas who would prefer a rather prosaic drive to Columbia to fighting St. L traffic.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
stlgph
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):

Nah ... Columbia I think could handle its own. It could draw COMO, Jeff City, Rolla, Kirksville, even some from the far east KC suburbs. Flying out of MCI to Las Vegas isn't as cheap as it used to be. And it might even be able to draw out from the far west of STL since it's the same case $$$ wise to Las Vegas from STL - Lambert.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
bravogolf
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
I think all of those could work. GYY-BLV would also probably print money, should SX open GYY

Already been tried by Pan AM lll. Not a good route. Pan Am lll was the first carrier into BLV in 2000.
 
National757
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:10 am

I know for a fact Allegiant has looked into Columbia in the past but COU needs to extend their runway before Allegiant can add service.

Quote:
Airline looks at Columbia
But runway length is an issue for Allegiant.

By KEVIN COLEMAN of the Tribune’s staff
Published Monday, June 18, 2007

A Las Vegas-based airline that serves Springfield-Branson National Airport has expressed interest in providing service at Columbia Regional Airport.

Allegiant Air is "one of a cadre" of airlines that the city has contacted as possible service providers at the airport, City Manager Bill Watkins said. "We’ve been working with a number of airlines," he said.

Tyri Squyres, a spokeswoman for Allegiant Air, said this morning that discussions with Columbia officials about local service are in an early stage. "We’re still having conversations, but runway length is critical," she said.

Read more here.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 25):
Already been tried by Pan AM lll. Not a good route. Pan Am lll was the first carrier into BLV in 2000.

Much has changed in the market since 2000. By your logic, no carrier should use the 787 on routes on which any carrier has previously failed.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bravogolf
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 27):
Much has changed in the market since 2000

So educate me. With flights from both ORD and MDW to STL , why would a route from GYY to BLV produce more than the average of 15 pax in the early 2000's?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 28):
why would a route from GYY to BLV produce more than the average of 15 pax in the early 2000's?

CHI-STL is a major business corridor, and a fair amount of the traffic, yes, even the business traffic, uses Amtrak for price or convenience reasons. If SX is price-competitive, it could capture a good chunk of that traffic. Furthermore, there is a significant chunk of the Chicago area, perhaps as many as 3 million people, for whom GYY is the most convenient airport. Depending on where they are going in St. Louis, SX might be able to capture them with more expensive tickets. As I said before, I think SX could do very well with GYY-BLV. It would require advertising and patience, neither of which PanAm really had. Saying that SX will fail because PanAm did is ludicrous.
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chase
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 22):
so ignorantly referenced above

Please don't flame me. That's not what we're here for. All I was trying to say is that in my experience living in St. Louis (which, admittedly, ended in the mid-90s, as indicated in reply #4), many people on the Missouri side of the river had disdain for the areas on the Illinois side. I apologize if that offended you. Frankly, it offends me too - but that doesn't change that that's the vibe I got when I lived there. And if that disdain is real, however unjustified it is, I am concerned that it could work against BLV.
 
stl1326
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 22):
The MidAmerica airport will probably close in time. It's too far for people IN St. Louis to commute to and there isn't enough of a population on the Illinois side to support it. IMHO

The metro-east is rapidly growing and if the right carrier came in with the right destinations, they could make the airport work. In addition, there is over 500,000 people between Madison and St. Clair County in the metro-east, and this side of the river will continue to see significant growth in the St. Louis area. Here is a link to an article with more details about growth in the metro-east: http://www.urbanstlouis.com/urbanstl...37c87f6a1674b001cc6a77afcb55 2007-10-28 18:47:07]

[Edited 2007-10-28 18:47:52]

[Edited 2007-10-28 18:48:30]
 
National757
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29):
CHI-STL is a major business corridor, and a fair amount of the traffic, yes, even the business traffic, uses Amtrak for price or convenience reasons. If SX is price-competitive, it could capture a good chunk of that traffic.

Business traffic on GYY-BLV? Please. BLV works well for St. Louis area price sensitive leisure travelers looking for a good deal to Las Vegas or Orlando and who don't mind driving to Belleville.

You're telling me a business traveler will choose to save thirty or forty dollars by taking SX from GYY to BLV and then spend an additional hour commuting from an unknown airport to wherever he/she needs to go in St. Louis? Wishful thinking at best, especially when price sensitive business travelers already have a lower cost and more convenient choice with Southwest.
 
chase
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:53 am

Another thing to consider with regard to BLV is the proposed Gateway Connector:
http://www.dot.state.il.us/gateway/maplink2.shtml

If built, this expressway will go VERY close to BLV.
 
penguinflies
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:54 am

I do believe that part of the plan to build the terminal included the runway, which was absolutely necessary in attracting the KC-135 and keeping the DC-9/737 wing at Scott. To say it was a loss on the civilian side, it seems to be a great addition for military expansion in Southern Illinois.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting National757 (Reply 32):
Business traffic on GYY-BLV? Please.

They're taking Amtrak now. Why not SX?

Quoting National757 (Reply 32):
BLV works well for St. Louis area price sensitive leisure travelers looking for a good deal to Las Vegas or Orlando and who don't mind driving to Belleville.

Are you asserting that ZO exclusively attracted "price sensitive leisure travelers?" That definitely wasn't the case.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
chase
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting National757 (Reply 32):
and then spend an additional hour commuting from an unknown airport to wherever he/she needs to go

Not trying to state any opinion, just facts:
BLV-downtown: 25.0 miles
STL-downtown: 14.8 miles
GYY-downtown: 27.7 miles
ORD-downtown: 17.7 miles
MDW-downtown: 11.3 miles

So someone going from downtown St. Louis to downtown Chicago would drive an extra 20.2 miles by doing BLV-GYY versus STL-ORD, and an extra 26.6 miles as compared to STL-MDW. However, traffic at BLV and GYY is of course much less than at STL, MDW, and ORD, which may or may not translate to needing to allocate less time in the terminal and the parking lot.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14264
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting Chase (Reply 36):
GYY-downtown: 27.7 miles
ORD-downtown: 17.7 miles
MDW-downtown: 11.3 miles

Travel times between the three airports and downtown do not reflect this difference. ORD is certainly the most difficult commute of the three. I've not experienced the new Dan Ryan, so I can't comment on the difference between GYY and MDW, though with as bad as the Stevenson can be (thanks to Will County's explosive growth), I think GYY might actually be the easiest airport to access from downtown. There's a reason Boeing keeps the corporate fleet at GYY rather than MDW...

Furthermore, the data do not reflect the economic reality that the St. Louis metropolitan area is not as downtown-centric as most large cities. The population of the city is only about 300,000, or only 12% of the metropolitan area's population. Though not a perfect indicator of the distribution of economic engines (and let's be clear; several of St. Louis's largest and most visible employers are in the city), it is nonetheless a telling contrast from many other cities.

[Edited 2007-10-29 12:26:25]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:40 pm



For those wanting to know what STL Mid-America looks like.
Puhdiddle
 
777STL
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
The population of the city is only about 300,000, or only 12% of the metropolitan area's population. Though not a perfect indicator of the distribution of economic engines (and let's be clear; several of St. Louis's largest and most visible employers are in the city), it is nonetheless a telling contrast from many other cities.

Though much of the high dollar business(not in the city) is farther west in Clayton and west county, where BLV doesn't doesn't hold any advantages over STL. STL is a pretty good hike from west county but I imagine BLV is even farther, negating any convenience. Especially later this year, when 40 is going to be shutdown.
PHX based
 
N353SK
Posts: 1018
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 10):
Especially if you live outside the 270 perimeter in St. charles, etc.

$$$$$$$.

$10 fares speak loudly. Not sure if they could speak more loudly than WN at STL, but I don't think there's any doubt that SX could fill up the cheap seats out of BLV. The $100+ seats could be trouble.
 
chase
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Travel times...
not as downtown-centric

You make two very good points!
I thought about the travel-time issue, but didn't have a very good concept of what the averages are. The last time I did the drive between downtown Chicago and GYY was in mid-September...construction was still pretty horrendous at that time.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14264
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:19 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 39):
STL is a pretty good hike from west county but I imagine BLV is even farther, negating any convenience. Especially later this year, when 40 is going to be shutdown.

There's no question that SX (or anyone else) would be foolish to attempt to draw Missouri travelers to BLV until 40 opens. I'm definitely not arguing that BLV is more convenient (except to South County, though there's not as much business down there); all I'm saying is that the difference is no worse than folks from the wealthier parts of Chicago (north and northwest suburbs) going down to MDW.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FlyBoy84
Posts: 331
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RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting Chase (Reply 4):
moved away from St. Louis 13 years ago, so I'm not too familiar with issues regarding BLV. Mind listing some of these factors?
If I had to guess, I'd say a) it's small, b) Joe Public may not be aware of its existence (easily fixed by advertising), c) it's in Illinois and 80% of the metro population lives in Missouri and considers "Illinois" to be almost a curse word since that's where East St. Louis, cornfields, and the Cubs are.
But...the metro East population is growing quickly, no? For those folks (and people farther East, like Mt. Vernon), the drive to Lambert is a long one. Also, it sounds like BLV has good or at least decent public transportation connectivity?
So...is it just an issue of building awareness and then critical mass? Or are you saying there are other issues afoot, like crappy facilities and/or management, no money for improvements/advertising, lack of land to expand onto someday, or...?



Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 15):
I recall the first time seeinlg BLV from the air (on a LAX-CVG flight), I thought, WTF? That would be a good secondary or even primary airport. It has long, widely set runways, no development near it. Why isn't it used more? I know STL was once among our busiest, but the experience in the airport wasn't all that pleasant. Had TWA survived and even flourished, developing BLV as a major airport and putting proper transit options into the city, and it would have been great.



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 7):
I would say that if AA would have kept the TWA level of flights operating out of STL instead of pulling the boner that they did and downsizing it so much....then you might see a legit reason for smaller airlines like Allegiant etc. expanding even more at BLV.....I flew Great Plains from MDW thru to TUL back in 2003. The airport was a very large facitily that looked like Dulles Airport did when it first opened...Like a ghost town....
Lots of room for a lot of flights to many places!!!!!!
Oh well, time will tell.....

Access-Air

Small???? MidAmerica-St. Louis sits on 7000 acres and has two runways with a 7000' separation. STL pales in comparison. Even with the new runway, BLV dwarfs STL!

Dulles is a good comparison. Although with the runway orientation, it is like the 14/32s at ORD since BLV has the same heading and probably a similar separation. I once mentioned that the layout was extremely conducive to clearing out the midfield of military ops and building a midfield terminal. I was told, in WRITING, by a St. Clair County official that an offer was made to St. Louis to make BLV the primary air carrier facility by diong something like that; St. Louis and Missouri would not hear any of it. I'm not saying they had concrete plans, but the foundation for such a thing is there!

Quoting Chase (Reply 33):
Another thing to consider with regard to BLV is the proposed Gateway Connector:
http://www.dot.state.il.us/gateway/maplink2.shtml

If built, this expressway will go VERY close to BLV.

The Gateway Connector was, in fact, mentioned in a Phase I document for MidAmerica-St. Louis' masterplan. According to the IDOT document, the Connector will encompass Air Mobility Drive (IL 158). It abuts the western edge of the Scott/BLV airfield and will connect with I-64!

"This project will have a significant impact on most of the study area roadways and on MidAmerica-St. Louis Airport, giving it greater accessibility to the southern St. Louis metropolitan area. However, since the project is still in the conceptual phase, no definite impact can be determined at this time. As the project evolves, it should be
revisited to determine its true impact on the Airport."

http://www.midamericamasterplan.com/

As for personal experience, I did take a flight from there to GYY in 2000, IIRC, on PanAm. I live about 10 minutes from STL, but wanted to have the experience of flying from BLV. I drove - fortunately, there was no traffic going across the Poplar Street Bridge (main highway from downtown to the Metro-East). The drive took about 30 minutes, but I can imagine how bad it would be in rush-hour traffic. While waiting for the flight, which was late, a military DC-9 was doing touch-and-gos on the Scott runway a mile and a half away. It was awesome to think that this facility could very well handle a major influx of flights.

I, too, have seen it many times from the air. Even on a clear night coming in to STL from the east, I can easily spot the airfield if I'm sitting on that side of the plane. BLV's largesse is evident on a clear daytime flight. It's too bad that the prevailing attitude of many Missourians is so negative toward Illinois. Lambert is never going to be the WORLD-CLASS facility that city officials think it is, but MidAmerica-St. Louis will NEVER have a chance.

[Edited 2007-10-30 12:04:56]
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 43):
I, too, have seen it many times from the air. Even on a clear night coming in to STL from the east, I can easily spot the airfield if I'm sitting on that side of the plane. BLV's largesse is evident on a clear daytime flight. It's too bad that the prevailing attitude of many Missourians is so negative toward Illinois. Lambert is never going to be the WORLD-CLASS facility that city officials think it is, but MidAmerica-St. Louis will NEVER have a chance.

Very true. BLV has some of the right ingredients to become a world class airport, but I'm afraid that potential will never be realized.

As sad as it is, the commercial aviation heyday for the St. Louis Metro Area has come and gone I believe. Unless we get a new entrant into the market that's willing to devote a substantial number of resources and create a focus city/hub, ala AirTran. But I don't see AA or WN ever returning KSTL back to its glory days.
PHX based
 
FlyBoy84
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 4:17 am

RE: St. Louis Midamerica Airport's Future?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:18 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 44):
Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 43):
I, too, have seen it many times from the air. Even on a clear night coming in to STL from the east, I can easily spot the airfield if I'm sitting on that side of the plane. BLV's largesse is evident on a clear daytime flight. It's too bad that the prevailing attitude of many Missourians is so negative toward Illinois. Lambert is never going to be the WORLD-CLASS facility that city officials think it is, but MidAmerica-St. Louis will NEVER have a chance.

Very true. BLV has some of the right ingredients to become a world class airport, but I'm afraid that potential will never be realized.

As sad as it is, the commercial aviation heyday for the St. Louis Metro Area has come and gone I believe. Unless we get a new entrant into the market that's willing to devote a substantial number of resources and create a focus city/hub, ala AirTran. But I don't see AA or WN ever returning KSTL back to its glory days.

Even with the state of commercial avaition in this area, BLV could be a world-class facility for the amount of service we now have. I think it's more a matter of the attitude of citizens and politicians.

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