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USADreamliner
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Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:01 pm

Plane Stupid is rolling out its figures to prove what an environmental disaster the A380 is.
Environmental campaigners targeting aviation waste a great deal of time, effort and space hitting out at equipment.
Good luck to Plane Stupid, because even if they were absolutely correct in what they claim, their tactics are not going to prevent a single person from travelling on it, or any other aeroplane type for that matter.

Is aviation the most effective target if your objective is to reduce global warming? At 2 or 3% of the global total, hardly. If you want results, try power generation. If you insist on travel, think of this: airlines actually take people somewhere. What about that incredibly fast-growing leisure sector, cruising?

If you were to apply Plane Stupid's arguments, and employ its tactics of targeting the equipment rather than the passenger, aviation would grow at the same rate but not acquire the new, more efficient kit. That sounds rather lose-lose to me, from the environmental point of view.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...e_the_passenger_not_the_plane.html
 
bennett123
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:26 pm

Their name says it all.
 
lehpron
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:15 pm

Oftenly convinient (and unimaginitive, IMO) to go after something in hindsight, isn't it? Tonight is the first commercial flight (though not regularly available).
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
EI321
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:27 pm

Why dont they propose a VIABLE method of long range transport as an alternative to aviation? Because there simply is no other solution with todays technology.
 
RIXrat
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:32 pm

I don't know what the Plane Stupid people want? It has been shown pretty clearly that carbon emissions only account for 2%.
 
skibum9
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Is aviation the most effective target if your objective is to reduce global warming? At 2 or 3% of the global total, hardly. If you want results, try power generation. If you insist on travel, think of this: airlines actually take people somewhere. What about that incredibly fast-growing leisure sector, cruising?

It always amazes me how out of touch organizations that target so called contributors to global warming are. Focusing on a segment that only produces 2% to 3% of carbon emissions is rediculous. It is well known that eating meat is one of the largest contrbutor to global warming, contributing upwards of 20%. This 20% is the total of the methane that cattle produce, the lost oxygen production that trees produce from cutting them down to make more farm land to produce cattle feed, the emmissions in processing, transporting and preparing red meat, etc. It is huge and rarely spoken about. And as the population increases and more developing counties like India and China become more affluent, meat production consumption continues to increase significantly, causing more forests to be cut down, and on and on. So the moral of the story is, if you really want to impact global warming don't stop flying, but become a vegetarian.
Tailwinds!!!
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:53 pm

No A380 fan here, but hte A380 shoudl be quite an environmentally friendly plane per seat mile..better one A380 than 3 767s
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Why dont they propose a VIABLE method of long range transport as an alternative to aviation?

Don't you know their theme song?
"Row, row, row your boat, gently 'cross the Atlantic Ocean"  Silly

Sorry for not making a serious replies, but tree-hugging mushroom-smokers like Plane Stupid cannot be taken seriously.
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:47 pm

This is barking up the wrong tree. The A380 is the most fuelefficient plane flying, and there are no real alternative to flying for longhaul travel. They'd better focus their attention on shorthaul flights, where there are serious alternatives, such as highspeed rail. I'd take a train over a plane any day if traveltime door-to-door is less than two hours more.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:28 pm

Who's the planestupid one now? Too bad we couldn't blacklist them from flying (or driving, eating, breathing...anything that produces CO2)
.
 
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teme82
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 1):
Their name says it all.

Ditto that!

If all long hauls would be flown with as big plane as A380 is there would be less CO2 emissions and stuff so they need really get heads checked ....
Flying high and low
 
na
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 10):
If all long hauls would be flown with as big plane as A380 is there would be less CO2 emissions and stuff so they need really get heads checked ....

Absolutely, its the smaller aircraft who are gas guzzlers per seat, so this Stupid barks at the wrong door. Better one A380 than 2 A330s or 777s.
 
WF2BNN
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:55 pm

A lot of focus is on the airline industries regarding their business when it comes to the enviroment, is it becaouce the media likes to scare the public who likes to travel? Is it because they are not educated when it comes to what actualy pollutes? I have heard NOTHING about environmental friendly boats in the news - the very same boats that spilled oil both into the air and onto our beaches, I've heard nothing about stopping the methane from animals and humans. Focus on what matters, and this thing will be fought! Stop blaming it on the things that makes the global economy work - rather spend some money to increace revenue on the things that will make you aditional funds and spend it on fighting the sources that chause the most bad!

Just my thoughs from a little oily and gassy rich country up north....

Mateo
What goes up, must come down.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 4):
I don't know what the Plane Stupid people want? It has been shown pretty clearly that carbon emissions only account for 2%.

They want to redistribute wealth and use the guise of environmentalism to do it. It's not a new concept.  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
NYC777
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Why dont they propose a VIABLE method of long range transport as an alternative to aviation? Because there simply is no other solution with todays technology.

I say let those jerks walk where ever they have to go to and then they'll realize what morons they are. I bet half them still take a plane today to where ever they are going.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 12):
I've heard nothing about stopping the methane from animals and humans

Oh, we hear about it over here. We even hear about how Reindeer pollute way more than anyone thought, and how Scandinavian and Russian forests are actually CO2 negative, not the Carbon sinks everyone expected them to be.

So the answer is, of course, to cut down all your trees and kill all the wildlife. Turns out that grassy fields are the best carbon sinks around, as nature goes. But not if cows or deer or whatever are eating the grass and pooping it out...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:23 am

I'm more of a Boeing fan, but I like Airbus too (what? you can like both??), and this news makes me like the A380 even more!

If they want to go after a plane why not go after something like the BAE-146? Oh, it's because these people are "stupid" and think that since its smaller, its more fuel efficient. Sure, it uses less fuel per flight, but considering capacity, the economy of scale makes the A380 more efficient per passenger. Probably the only current jet-powered competitor to the A380 in terms of fuel efficiency per passenger is probably the 777-300 as the largest twinjet.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
bok269
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Why dont they propose a VIABLE method of long range transport as an alternative to aviation? Because there simply is no other solution with todays technology.

 checkmark 

THese people think the world can revert back to local economies, where no long range travel is needed. It's just plane stupid (pun intenended). Our economy is now global, and barring a major disaster, is going to stay that way. Better to use efficient airliners than inefficient surface vehicles.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
D328
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 6):
No A380 fan here, but hte A380 shoudl be quite an environmentally friendly plane per seat mile..better one A380 than 3 767s

4 engines of A380 to 6 engines of the B767(and yes I know the 767 engines may put out a little pollution) but not a good example I think. Plus the 3 767s could carry more cargo? more pounds carried by those 3? Anyone help with it?
 
PlanenutzTB
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:44 am

Is Al Gore a member of Plane Stupid?
I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Scandinavian and Russian forests are actually CO2 negative, not the Carbon sinks everyone expected them to be.

I didn't know that. I start searching and I found more info, very interesting.

"Planting new trees in snow-covered northern regions may actually contribute to global warming as they have the counter-effect of tropical forests, according to a study out Monday.
While rainforests help cool the planet by absorbing carbon dioxide and producing clouds that reflect sunlight, the dark canopy of Canadian, Scandinavian and Siberian forests catches sunrays that would be reflected back to space by the snow, the study said."

http://forests.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=72628
 
aveugle
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 19):
Is Al Gore a member of Plane Stupid?

No, He isn't misguided like the people of Plane Stupid.


Plane stupid is just plain not going anywhere.

[Edited 2007-10-26 23:10:14]
 
B747-4U3
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 19):
Is Al Gore a member of Plane Stupid?

No, he IS plane stupid.


I glanced at Plane Stupid's website a couple of weeks ago and I have to say what a pathetic, poorly written and nonsensical argument these Leaf Eating Green Headed Nazis have come up with. Even the valid points they come up with are a turn off because they are so poorly written and riddled with over-hyped garbage.
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 19):
Is Al Gore a member of Plane Stupid?

He was for awhile but his Gulfstream II puts out too much hypocrisy per gallon so he got kicked out.
.
 
davidkunzVIE
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:57 am

A random quote from thei website:
"The aviation industry is only the 26th biggest industry in Britain.

It's half the size of the computer industry, and just a tenth the size of banking and finance"

And, surely, these industries would have developed at the same speed without aviation, wouldn't they...
DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
 
bh4007
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:11 am

One of their aims is to see an "end to short-haul flights"! I can picture it now; British holidaymakers getting the train to Majorca  Wink
 
Rj111
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:22 am

Generally speaking the more efficient an aircraft is (for its size) the more the airlines are going to buy and fly it, and the more customers are going to use it. So there's no point attacking one individual aircraft (or the industry as a whole but that's another story).

Quoting D328 (Reply 18):
4 engines of A380 to 6 engines of the B767(and yes I know the 767 engines may put out a little pollution) but not a good example I think. Plus the 3 767s could carry more cargo? more pounds carried by those 3? Anyone help with it?

Well the A380 is the most efficient plane in the sky, and the 767 is now one of the least efficient aircraft with any legs. So i can think of few better examples.
 
Glom
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:26 am

Ugh!!! Remember this lot are of the same variety as the Trot windbags carrying banners at the climate camp stating "Revolution, not runways!" (Didn't we have a revolution 20 years ago? Why do we need another one so soon?). Essentially, aviation is viewed as a very bourgeois activity. It's an activity undertaken by people who do not know their place in the world as humble peasants working on collectivised farms. That's why it is such a target. It's a socio-political thing. The environment is just a stick used to beat it with.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 17):
THese people think the world can revert back to local economies, where no long range travel is needed.

And that is misguided in of itself because that will only make the environmental situation worse. Globalisation causes a greater acceleration of economic development, which leads to a faster development on affluence. This in turns means the world population peaks at around 9 billion in 2050 before declining to 7 billion by 2100. Sticking to isolationist policies, without the transfer of goods, knowledge, services etc, economic development is slower, particular in the places like Africa and the population continues to grow to 15 billion by 2100. That's the economic scenarios that forms the basis of the IPCC's climate scenarios.
 
777236ER
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:53 am

If Plane Stupid gets their way aircraft order falls, the industry enters recession, airlines don't buy new aircraft and manufacturers don't produce newer, significantly greener aircraft. Members of Plane Stupid are made up of the museli-eating, confused, ignorant upper-middle class idiots who only eat organic.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
killjoy
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:06 am

Why don't we ever see any groups pushing for environmental action that wouldn't harm the economy or people's quality of life? Here's a few ideas just off the top of my head:

-Force minimal packaging for all products.
-Put a penalty tax on anything that could be done over the internet (CDs, DVDs, bank account statements...)
-Update building codes to ensure that absolutely everything is properly insulated from both hot and cold weather
-Put a penalty tax on zero value items that exist purely for marketing (insanely shitty toys attached to magazines, magazines wrapped in plastic, happy meal toys...)

And then there's the whole SUV thing, but people get way too emotional over their cars, so I'm not going to include it in a list of things that should be easy.

But seriously, why isn't anyone trying to accomplish any of those things? Why does everything have to be about some high profile industry?
 
Stealthz
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting SpeedyGonzales (Reply 8):
The A380 is the most fuelefficient plane flying,



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 26):
Well the A380 is the most efficient plane in the sky,

Is it, the above comments were certainly bandied about (rammed down our throat) during the sales & development days of the 800+ seat A-380 and I have no reason to doubt those claims.
What I am curious about is how those claims for efficiency stack up now that the real working A-380s have between 470 &550 seats.
Not the commercial efficiency as I am sure SQ et al will be happy on the return from those lavish suites but the pax/km per kg of increasingly expensive hydrocarbon fuel?

Cheers
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jamman
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:13 am

I remember watching a TV interview of one of these people, when asked what she did for a living she answered 'Full Time Professional Protester' that just summed it all up for me, how can they be taken seriously.

The fact is we live in a global economy now and air travel is needed to keep it afloat, the best thing we can do is develop new technologies to reduce any significant pollution produced by air travel and perhaps reduce domestic air travel that is under an hours flight time. Rather than getting in the way of the public (see protest at Manchester Airport) they should be lobbying fuel and engine manufactures to get these new technologies to the the manufacturers and the public.
Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 30):
What I am curious about is how those claims for efficiency stack up now that the real working A-380s have between 470 &550 seats.

Well, thinking about it on an A380 Vs 3x 767, only one taxi out/in period Vs 3. Only one climb out period Vs 3. Only one structure to get in the air Vs 3, these are areas of duplication which have been avoided, I doubt if the A380 wiighs 3 times a 763? Even though it might not be too ar short of it there are only one landing gear, one tail fin, wing & cabin structures, etc

As for plain stupid, well perception is reality. If people listen to the moronic comment they make people will believe that aviation will casue the world to choke in an black cloud of CO2 and Nitrous Oxides! They sipll out figures such as "XXX bliions tons of CO2 per year" and it sounds like a massive number, but they dont put in proportion to the larges contributrs of co2, or the total yearly output of CO2.

Brian.
 
killjoy
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 30):
What I am curious about is how those claims for efficiency stack up now that the real working A-380s have between 470 &550 seats.
Not the commercial efficiency as I am sure SQ et al will be happy on the return from those lavish suites but the pax/km per kg of increasingly expensive hydrocarbon fuel?

Who cares? It's not the plane's fault if people are willing to pay for that. Only holiday tour operators fly aircraft at their maximum capacity.

IIRC the consumption values used in their advertising are based on an average of 555 passengers.

Quoting Jamman (Reply 31):
Rather than getting in the way of the public (see protest at Manchester Airport) they should be lobbying fuel and engine manufactures to get these new technologies to the the manufacturers and the public.

That wouldn't make much sense. The market is already taking care of that.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 33):
It's not the plane's fault if people are willing to pay for that.

Oh, I didn't mean to come across as a charter member of Plane Stupid, just curious how the seat/km numbers have changed and I did mention I was not asking about the commercial numbers.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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OA260
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting Jamman (Reply 31):
'Full Time Professional Protester'

Hmmm these people need to either go back to college and study for something worthwhile or get a job!!! Judging by the look of them a haircut and shower wouldnt go a miss either. Sad thing is they are claiming the benefits paid for by the British taxpayer and then go protesting.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:00 pm

Plane Stupid. The name says it all. Sad they haven't spotted the irony, really.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
mestrugo
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:48 pm

This thread makes me wonder why those people choose the airline industry as their target time after time. So that led me to the question, "in which way the commercial planes affect the environment?" So I went and googled to see the results, 'cause I'm curious and everything.

As far as I can tell, aviation is said to affect the environment in several ways. First, we've got the famous greenhouse gases; let's not forget, jets work burning kerosene, etc etc. Those harmful gases are mainly carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxides. According with the European Union, direct emissions from aviation account for about 3% of the EU’s total greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and are increasing steadily. (source: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...ML&aged=0%3Cuage=EN&guiLanguage=en ), although I can't tell myself, nevertheless, the effect is there, and moderating that percentage wouldn't be bad in any case. And, in fact, the industry is going that way. For instance, the AIRE initiative, the "Atlantic Interoperability Initiative to Reduce Emissions", is on its way, and it's supposed to help reduce fuel burn greatly (source: http://optimistmag.org/gb/0002/one.php?id=2260 ).

However, the biggest concern with airliners isn't the gas emissions themselves, but the place and the conditions where planes release those gases, the upper atmosphere layers, where the effects of that contamination aren't still clear. There aren't enough studies about the effect of those gases on the thin, more sun radiated air up there. Contrails are suspected to help developing cirrus clouds, and that, together with gas emissions, are supposed to be way more dangerous than greenhouse gases. (source: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...ML&aged=0%3Cuage=EN&guiLanguage=en ) "In 1999 the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, examining the total climate impact of aviation, estimated these effects to be about two to four times greater than those of CO2 alone, even without considering the potential impact of cirrus cloud enhancement. This means the environmental effectiveness of any mitigation policy will depend on the extent to which these non-CO2 effects are also taken into account." (source: http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2005/2005-08-01-04.asp ).

Certainly, airplanes now are much greener than, say, 30 years before. But it's also true that there are many more aircraft flying everyday. Thus, while the EU's total greenhouse gas emissions fell by 3 % from 1990 to 2002, emissions from international aviation increased by almost 70 % (source: http://ec.europa.eu/environment/climat/aviation_en.htm ). And that's why there's been talks on the EU about taxing heavily the airline industry, especially towards the leisure sector, that seems to be the greatest contributor on that escalade.

So, despite how much I dislike them, those folks got a point, and it's good that they're there, telling the industry and the average person that, despite there's been a lot of improvements, it's necessary to go on and improve aircraft efficiency even more. That we need even greener aircraft, even greener flying procedures, and so on. And our planet will appreciate it, too.  Smile

I love planes, too, as much as any of you. I'm by no means a crazy environmentalist. But, having a little bit of common sense doesn't hurt, neither. Please don't flame me much.  Smile
 
runway24r
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:53 pm

I really get the impression that these groups pick on aviation because it is just convenient and gets publicity. I'm all in favour of doing all we can to 'save the earth,' but I'm also a realist. There loads of other areas that need to be addressed first to reduce pollution such as recycling initiatives, more fuel efficient cars, alternative power sources, etc, etc.

The difference is that there is a lot of media interest in air travel as it affects everyone. These protesters would hardly get the same media attention if the chained themselves to the gates of a land fill site. These guys need to get their facts right. Aviation counts for only 2% of total CO2 emissions in the EU. Sure it's 2% more pollution than is ideal, but the modern world relies heavily on international trade, much of which is performed via air travel. It's all about trade-offs and I've got no problem with the amount of air travel.

Also when you look back over the years, the efficiency of aircraft has been continuously improved and improved over the decades. The efficiency of a typical 1960s car was the same as a typical 1990s car. It's only very recently that European and Asian (not the US unfortunately though yet!) car companies have really began developing the cars to be more efficient. I'd say that aviation is proactive, whilst everything else seems to be reactive to the growing environmental concerns.

In the 'Plane Stupid' group on Facebook, there are all these posts with people moaning about the noise of living near to Heathrow, and how flights should be banned and such. Bit of advise to them - LHR was there way before you were, so you have no right to complain whatsoever. If you can't handle the noise, then move (preferably to Siberia - not too many planes there to my knowledge!)

In short, I believe we do need address climate change, but I'd rather drive a fuel efficient car, recycle my cans and then get on a plane to go somewhere, than get some long-haired ignorant students telling me how to lead my life as per this video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzFqjfgbKBg


That's my 2c anyway...

Regards, Rob  Smile
A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A359, A388, 732, 733, 736, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 773, 77W, 788, 789, CRJ700, MD80
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting Runway24R (Reply 38):
the 'Plane Stupid' group on Facebook,

Is there any way to spam the group to death without actually joining ? What a bunch of whiny, parochial lentil-eating clog-wearers. They need to get a life.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Flighty
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting SpeedyGonzales (Reply 8):
This is barking up the wrong tree. The A380 is the most fuelefficient plane flying,

No it's not. The Emirates 420-pax 773ER is the most fuel efficient international jet flying.

The A380 is a very efficient way to transport 750 people. But will it be used for that? No! Not so far.

The A380 is a downright piggy and odious way to transport 480 people. It weighs 1.2 million pounds loaded, which is a lot more weight to transport 480 people compared to the 400-pax 744. Those 80 extra people cost 200,0000- 240,000lb of new empty jet weight. That's a terrible marginal pollution cost for those extra 80 people.

Is this an equal comparison? No. Neither is a comparison of a V12 SUV compared to a Honda Accord. The V12 SUV is much more powerful and fun. But the Accord carries 4 people much more efficiently. That is my only point about the A380.

[Edited 2007-10-27 09:11:53]
 
Ferroviarius
Posts: 257
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RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:13 pm

[

Good evening,

I think you have mentioned some important points, Mestrugo:

quote=Mestrugo,reply=37]I love planes, too, as much as any of you. I'm by no means a crazy environmentalist. But, having a little bit of common sense doesn't hurt, neither. Please don't flame me much. [/quote]

I am not an expert in the field, but specifically the fact that a major part of the exhaust of airplanes goes directly into the higher layers of the atmosphere appears to be have a considerable impact on the environment.

I think there might be two further points worth to be mentioned:

a)
It is possible to avoid a lot of tourist air traffic, though at the price of economical impact on countries whose economy is dependent on tourism. Formulated in an extreme way: Why should John Smith from Australia catch a holiday cold in Norway while Ola Nordmann gets his holiday sunburns in Sydney? All right, "because it's fun, we like it and we can afford it". Yes, still (!) you can afford it. But is it really necessary?

b)
High speed rail infrastructure is possible. One could build transcontinental high speed rails sytems in the US, in Canada, in Australia, in Siberia. New York - San Francisco in one night would be quite attractive. These systems could be operating for generations of human beings and be supplied with electric power not generated by carbon based energy carriers.

c)
In more general terms: Long distance air travel helps to make people happier. All right, no doubt about that. But do we really need happiness? I doubt we do (and I know it is against even the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America) and refer to 1 Timothy 6, 6-8 ("6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content").

Best wishes,

Ferroviarius
 
FRNT787
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:04 am

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:17 pm

I find it odd they are attacking an industry who is making the largest gains not only in the efficiency of their products now, will continue to do so (787,A350) and is dramatically improving its overall productive efficiency. What  butthead  s.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 41):
do we really need happiness? I doubt we do

Pardon me for saying so, but that is the single most pious, self-appointedly sanctimonious statement I have ever read on a.net. Your hypothesis is offensive - to suggest that we have no right to be happy seems to deny any reason for existence at all. You are free to pursue whatever dour, joyless, narrow and pointless existence you choose, but don't you dare suggest that I have to follow your lead. You go ahead and cycle everywhere (unless of course that might lead accidently to some spark of enjoyment, in which case, you should stay at home and watch some paint dry) - I fully intend to fly across as much of this planet as I possibly can.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
sh0rtybr0wn
Posts: 373
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:36 pm

The A380 will be the most efficient VLA in existence, so good job by Airbus.

If they fill it with 800 people, it will be much more efficient at carrying people around than several smaller planes whose main advantage is frequency.


At 450 people though, the A380 is a disgraceful use of energy. But hey, so are SUVs, and people still buy them and use them. All the people complaining about Plane stupid, they're activists. Their purpose is to stimulate discussion and create positive environmental change. I think its bad form to think of ways to spam them and ban them.

Oil is at $92 USD a barrel now, what will it be like to fly when oil hits $200?

Packed like 850 sardines on an 850 might be the only way to afford it.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 44):
Their purpose is to stimulate discussion and create positive environmental change

No, their purpose is to try and force their stupid vegan never-go-anywhere-live-in-yurt cold damp tedious lentil-eating existence on the rest of us. If they don't like living near Heathrow, they can move. If they don't want to fly, nobody's holding a gun to their heads. The industry it's level best to reduce fuel consumption and therefore pollution, and has been doing so for decades now. Let them complain about really selfish, pointless polluters and environmental rapists, like the cruise industry.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
GDB
Posts: 14256
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:17 pm

Another group, mostly about being about opposing airport expansion, HACAN, have actually given a grudging, qualified, endorsement of the A380.
Presumably due to the low noise and as they hope, potential for reducing flights from slot restricted airports.

But Plane Stupid are an example of something this country produces too much of, full time moaners who also have an aversion to contributing to anything, paying their way, (for all that health and welfare they've enjoyed since birth).
Have they commented on the fact that global shipping produces twice as much CO2 as aviation?

Or on the biggest factor in all environmental problems, not just emissions, that is, there are four times as many humans on Earth compared to 1900, worse still, twice as many compared to 1970-hold that thought, the latter date is within the lifetimes of myself and many on here. And no one has a sane answer-Plane Stupid and similar avoid this, since it's not easy to pin that on their usual targets, 'The West', or 'The Middle/Upper Classes', 'Big Multinational Corporations' and so on.

'Plane Stupid' belong to the small, unrepresentative, but loud and media feted strand who writer Martin Amis recently encountered at the London Institute Of Contemporary Arts, where he asked his audience which of them felt morally superior to The Taliban (as in those women hating, music banning, teacher and schoolgirl shooting, ancient monument destroying, uber oppressors).
About a third of the audience raised their hands to agree with Amis.
I use this example as I see Plane Stupid as the 'Taliban' of the environmental movement, ultra extreme.

Aviation does have to account for and adapt to, the increasing political and public concern on environmental issues, ignoring them is foolish and is, or soon will be, bad business.
But, they need to really start hitting back against groups like Plane Stupid, we cannot wait for a member to be interviewed by for example, the BBC's Jeremy Paxman, who would soon uncover their essential unreasonableness and double standards.

Not just against these types either, I'm rather annoyed that the morning news reports of a minor collision between a static BA 747 and taxing Sri Lankan A340 at LHR recently, ended up having the 1977 Tenerife disaster, still the worst ever, with two 747's colliding, one on take off, alluded to in the reporting. (But at LHR, the BA B747, G-BNLL was repaired and flying soon afterwards).
My annoyance is as much with BA for not angrily objecting as much as the media.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Is aviation the most effective target if your objective is to reduce global warming? At 2 or 3% of the global total, hardly.

Yes and no, nothing is to be left over. However the A380 is as efficient as possible with using today's technology and outdates any VLA. So they (Plane Stupid) lose. I don't know about the real engagement of Airbus (and Boeing) and airlines about environment and sustainable development, but the good thing is, whether they like it or not, expensive oil makes for the same trend. And we all know they all care about saving on fuel expenses... Who said ecology was going against economy?
When I doubt... go running!
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 4):
I don't know what the Plane Stupid people want? It has been shown pretty clearly that carbon emissions only account for 2%.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
They want to redistribute wealth and use the guise of environmentalism to do it. It's not a new concept

Problem being that the global warming issue becomes an excuse for people who want to change the world - especially pushing globalisation back. The fact that so many people have hidden agendas invested in the (certainly real) environmental issues creates a lot of problems and - as a matter of fact - does everything to prevent the real problems being solved!

Abba
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Plane Stupid Against The A380

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 44):

At 450 people though, the A380 is a disgraceful use of energy. But hey, so are SUVs,

That's what I am saying too! I think it's a fair metaphor. The A380 is a Cadillac Escalade / Range Rover with tons of bling. Very heavy and fuel consumptive. No one doubts an Escalade or an A380 is very high technology. But the technology is only used for pleasure, not for efficiency.

Nothing wrong with pleasure. But it is wrong to pollute without paying the cost.

Spilling cancer-causing chemicals everywhere, killing people without compensation, that is not OK. It's been illegal for decades.

The same rationale follows through on CO2. It is fine to emit CO2, but pay for cleanup. Otherwise, you are too poor to emit CO2, and that pollution kills people. It's not acceptable. Just because it's cheap and fun to pollute does not mean it's OK. You must pay for cleanup.

And yes, that goes for steak too.

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