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RobK
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:12 pm

SAS should be taking Bombardier to court right now... Their aircraft clearly have issues. I'm sure in addition to the other 6 incidents, there was a post a few months ago about a BE Q400 having landing gear problems as well.

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Navigator
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting Aeronut (Reply 96):



Quoting Aeronut (Reply 96):
I think you should clarify your last statement...

I have never heard of anything worse when it comes to serious faults in flight in modern types. Air speed indicator failures, engine failures, gear collapses, no gear extentions, faulty indications in cockpit etc etc the list is long and longer and more serious than in any other airliner old or modern that I heard of since the 70:s

Do you know of any other modern type with such a record? Luckily there has been no casualties that I know of with this type.
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Maersk737
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting Mika (Reply 99):
What i am saying is that there might be one or more individuals (mechanics in this case) within SAS who may want to sabotage for the airline.

Starting with this accident ? The investigators haven't found any sabotage, in all of the previous accidents and countless incidents.....

Cheers

Peter
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B747forever
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 102):
The investigators haven't found any sabotage, in all of the previous accidents and countless incidents.....

Why would SAS want to sabotage their Q400s???
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Maersk737
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 103):
Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 102):
The investigators haven't found any sabotage, in all of the previous accidents and countless incidents.....

Why would SAS want to sabotage their Q400s???

Why do you ask me?

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
aeronut
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 101):
Do you know of any other modern type with such a record? Luckily there has been no casualties that I know of with this type.

I don't think you get it!

I do not know of a case where ONE AIRLINE has had so many problems with ONE modern type of aircraft.

FLYBE and HORIZON for example. I How many accidents have they had in the last month? Quantas is ordering more, everyone is ordering more. Are a cheap airplane, they are more money than an ATR I beleive. The reason they are ordering more is they make money for the airlines.
 
legoguy
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 103):
Why would SAS want to sabotage their Q400s???

SAS wouldn't want to sabotage their aircraft... but a cheesed off mechanic of SAS could have a motive. It could take only one person to sabotage an aircraft.

Of course the sabotage is an extreme possibility at the moment, but until the thing is investigated we are all just throwing forward possible reasons behind the accidents. Nothing more than speculation at this moment.

As for why SAS are having a lot of problems with the Q400... probably a lot of small factors all combined which contribute towards the issues we have seen so far. Could it be anything to do with how SAS train their crews to land the aircraft, e.g heavier than normal landings?

EDIT... In another thread, a newspaper found mentions that 25 out of 27 SK aircraft had the corrosion on one or both landing gear of each aircraft. Could it be that after the undercarriage was removed to replace the component at fault, the undercarriage was reinstalled in the wrong way, causing a failure of one of the undercarriage to extend? e.g. was a small nut or bolt not reinstalled correctly.

[Edited 2007-10-27 13:28:59]
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BrianDromey
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 43):
They already have A319 and A321's. A318 can land at airports with shorter runways such as London City

Yes, BUT the best 318 engine (and SAS tends to order the best combo ranter than whats already in the fleet) is the P&W, which has no commonality at all with any engine in the varied SAS fleet, the CFM is far too heavy for the A318, as evedenced by Fronter who ordered thier A319s with CFM and A318 with P&W's, although they took the 318 with CFM's in the end. I dont know if the CFM powered A318 is approved for LCY, although Im sure it would be possible if SAS wanted to do that.

The 736 is a member of the NG family and so is every bit a 'modern/new' as the A318 would be. It would be so much cheaper to intorduce additional 763s and send Blue1 to LCY with the Avros on behalf of SAS. Frequencies would suffer in any case involving the 318/736 though. E-Jets are the best options for jets in this size, but that would be utter madness, even if it were to be a part of MD-80 replacement, unless they ditch the airbusses as well, and move to a 737/E170/190 fleet.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 88):
I think the Baltic salt is getting on the landing gear and corroding important bolts.

I was wondering about this, BUT flyBe has a lot of routes to the channel islands and the south coast of the UK, and thus far there have been no problems.

Brian.
 
B747forever
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 106):
SAS wouldn't want to sabotage their aircraft

Okey, I see.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 106):
It could take only one person to sabotage an aircraft.

That is actually true and really sad. Wonder if it is sabotage. But I doubt it still.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 106):
Could it be anything to do with how SAS train their crews to land the aircraft, e.g heavier than normal landings?

Hmmm, that is another guessing. Maybe it is true. I cant answer that.
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Viscount724
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:41 pm

The title of this thread should be corrected. The gear can't collapse if it wasn't extended in the first place. This appears to be a very different type of incident from the first two. It could be a totally unrelated problem.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 87):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 34):
Wasn't there a German Dash 8 that had problems witth the landing gear a few weeks ago also?

Yes, it involved an IQ Q400 at MUC.

though a landing gear accident, it is not connected with the incidents experienced by SK - SK experiences those incidents due to corrosion found in the main landing gear, IQ's incident was a mechanical problem in it front landing gear.

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 60):
Other airlines with larger numbers of Q400s and of a similar age haven't had the problems...

Flybe: 32 Q400s, oldest delivered 19-10-01

Horizon Airlines: 33 Q400s, oldest delivered 24-11-00

Austrian Arrows: 10 Q400, oldest delivered 04-06-00

as a matter of fact, corrosion was found on many Dash 8-400 aircraft. i know of examples at OS and IQ which had found corrosion on their landing gears, however, there were no related incidents. so i wouldn't rule out that above mentioned operators are having these problems. european operators of the aircraft type had severe difficulties in getting exchange parts because demand for them was so high.

i think the theory with sea salt is not too bad. however, it seems to contradict that many other operators (with bases far away from salty waters) had those problems as well. but perhaps it worsened the corrosion already in place in SK's aircraft and so lead to incidents (so far) only at SAS.

this is why, imo, there can be no doubt that this is not a problem caused by SK (bad maintenance or whatsoever) or even sabotage, as someone mentioned. as so often in aviation, it seems to be a combination of faults which, in those cases, lead to the incidents only at SK.
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legacy135
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:46 pm

To blame SAS for this series of problems seems to me a pretty simple answer to a growing problem, an answer that is just to simple to be correct. The Q400 had several problems from the beginning on, also on the undercarriage. I remember also Tyrolean loosing a wheel on take off. I also remember Tyrolean crews telling exactly the same "Christmas tree" stories we can now read in some of the previous answers, as SAS crews obviously experience this kind of Warning Light Parade and black panels as well.

Just because the Q400 is extremely efficient and gives low cost per seat-mile it does not mean that this is the perfect aircraft. I would not be to much surprised if SAS and others are going to replace the type rather fast. The only option I personally can see is a E170 or E175 as the ATR72 isn't really a fast plane.

Talking to friends and colleagues from business aviation flying other Bombardier products as Challengers or Globals, they love the planes flying characteristics, but don't really praise the quality and reliabilities. Coming to talk about customers support, one of my friends operating a Challenger 300 recently meant "....what do you think my grey hairs are coming from...."

So taking all aspects in consideration, I absolutely trust SAS and I get confirmed my impression about Bombardier.

Cheers

Legacy135  Wink
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 87):
There is the rumour that SK is considering the SSJ100 as a replacement.

I doubt that. These are not 1960s to replace props with jets. Those planes were bought in order to cut down costs.

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 91):
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 88):I think the Baltic salt is getting on the landing gear and corroding important bolts. Maybe they should go to a different material for the landing gear or park the planes in hangars?
And the salt is only having an affect on the Q400 ??? But of course the salty winds, could be player in all these strange events.

It might be the case, but SAS was one of the launch customers of the type and both Bombardier and SAS probably paid attention to such possibility even during test flights.

Quoting RobK (Reply 100):
SAS should be taking Bombardier to court right now...

They could in case the same problems occur to other airlines that have Q400s. If that is not the case, there is a slight chance that SAS could gain anything in such process.

Quoting Mika (Reply 99):
What i am saying is that there might be one or more individuals (mechanics in this case) within SAS who may want to sabotage for the airline.

Don't get me wrong, but it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Why on Earth would group of mechanics jeopardize lives of passengers just to prove their point and what point would it be?
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extspotter
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 100):
SAS should be taking Bombardier to court right now... Their aircraft clearly have issues. I'm sure in addition to the other 6 incidents, there was a post a few months ago about a BE Q400 having landing gear problems as well.

There was but it wasn't to do with the landing gear failing to deploy, if I remember right, it was a wheel falling off the left undercarriage. It happened again at Exeter about a week ago too, but that again was a wheel falling off the left undercarriage, I was going to make a thread about it here, but I thought it would have just turned into another Q400 bashing thread.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 107):
I was wondering about this, BUT flyBe has a lot of routes to the channel islands and the south coast of the UK, and thus far there have been no problems.

The Q400 maintainance base is at Exeter, on a river and very close to the sea, EXT has a large Flybe presence, with 8 or more aircraft overnighting there on flights plus whatever is in for maintainance (I know because there is only 9 or 10 stands), and there are a large number of flights departing (between 7 and 9) before the first one arrives back. Usually aircraft operate from the same base from day to day, meaning that Q400s may be operating 10 or more cycles a day (e.g. EXT - GCI - JER - GCI - EXT - EDI - EXT - DUB - EXT - GCI - JER - GCI - EXT - CDG - EXT - GLA - EXT). This is possible in the flight sceduals as many flights are less than an hour in length, meaning that even though many aircraft may be new, the oldest aircraft in the fleet, G-JEDI, could have a huge number of cycles already with a conservative estimate, minus maintainance time and with a lower number of cycles a day (10 x 340 x 6 = 20400) (Cycles per day x Days in year in service x number of years in service = total cycles).

I know this is crude, but it is just to demonstate a ballpark figure of how many cycles older Q400s in BE fleet may have done.
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SKAirbus
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:27 pm

Hi,

This is my first post!!

Anyway...

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 88):
I think the Baltic salt is getting on the landing gear and corroding important bolts. Maybe they should go to a different material for the landing gear or park the planes in hangars?

Well first of all... The Baltic sea / Kattegat has very low salt levels, which means that this would not have an effect on the aircraft. If the plane was located next to the Atlantic then maybe i would believe this..

Also, it is very unfortunate that SAS has been victim to this type of incident on 3 seperate occassions not to mention numerous emergency landings inbetween BUT remember that Bombardier has been extremely arrogant and unhelpful here and I hope SAS sue them for all they have!!

Also, SAS received the first batch of Dash 8 -Q400s and operates them on high cycles so this is in my opinion the most likely reason.. they received the first junk... Maybe in a years time, other older Q400s will develop similar problems? I hope to god that they wont and hopefully airlines will once again thoroughly check the landing gear..

[Edited 2007-10-27 14:34:38]
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teme82
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:58 pm

Is it just me or is that the same side landing gear that collapsed in those too other SK Dash's??
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SKAirbus
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 115):
Is it just me or is that the same side landing gear that collapsed in those too other SK Dash's??

Yes that is correct... right hand landing gear. It could be a coincidence or maybe a construction fault.. The cause of the first 2 accidents were attributed to a bolt in the landing gear. Curious how the three aircraft involved were all among the first batch delivered. Also maintainence proceedures for the Q400 don't state that this should be part of routine maintainence... i assume that SAS and all other airlines follow rules set out by Bombardier.. of course adapting them on the way... or?

[Edited 2007-10-27 15:04:29]
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EBGflyer
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 115):
Is it just me or is that the same side landing gear that collapsed in those too other SK Dash's??

No, it's not you. It's the right landing gear in all 3 gear collapse incidents.
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drgmobile
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:11 pm

I find all these comments about "it obviously is Bombardier's fault" rather ridiculous. Do you have know idea what the problem is. The reality is that this seems to be particularly impacting SAS. That would tend to suggest that it's more than just the aircraft. Perhaps there is a misinterpretation in the company's understanding of the maintenance manuals? All you would need is for a handful of people to believe A is really Z, and spread that interpretation through the organization. Perhaps there IS something particular about the weather/operating environment that is causing systems to deteriorate more quickly than had been projected. Perhaps there is an issue with parts or oils being purchased to maintain the aircraft.

Oh, and if you think SAS is going to ground a 70-seat turboprop and arbitrarily replace it with a brand new, unproven 100-seat regional jet -- or even worse -- an A318, doesn't really understand what factors go into fleet decisions. It is likely the Q-400s are operating on routes that are not operationally or financial appropriate for anything other than a similar product (ie the ATR). Most likely, SAS is highly motivated to getting to the bottom of what is causing problems with this expensive airplane it bought that other carriers don't seem to have a problem with.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 118):
The reality is that this seems to be particularly impacting SAS.

Perhaps, but:

- SAS operates the oldest Dash 8 aircraft around

- Augsburg Airways had a few weeks ago a similar problem with one of their Dash 8 aircraft

- ANA had last year a similar problem with one of their Dash 8 aircraft
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 119):
- Augsburg Airways had a few weeks ago a similar problem with one of their Dash 8 aircraft

- ANA had last year a similar problem with one of their Dash 8 aircraft

Yes the Q400 seems to be having more landing gear problems than the average airliner.. also i wonder if Bombardier will investigate this?

But even if they find they can 100% fix the problems with the Q400 it wont help to restore passenger confidence very soon. It might be in SAS best interest to seek out a replacement otherwise their business could suffer a lot more than now... Anyone have any load factor figures for SAS Dash 8s since their return to service?? Just out of interest...
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[email protected]
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:51 pm

To clarify some of the statements given above, I find it prudent to summarize the various gear related incidents the Q400 has racked up so far:

12March 2007 ANA Flight1603 Tokyo-Kochi
The forward landing gear failed to deploy. Reports of other problems mentioned in this article.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17586367/

Follow this link for a video of the landing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHXpV4vZLOU

12Aug 2007 Jeju Air Flight502 Jeju - Busan
Runway overrun with gear collapse
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070812-0

For pictures of the incident, follow this link:
http://thebluesky.info/113

09Sep 2007 SAS Flight1209 Copenhagen - Aalborg
Gear collapsed upon landing
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070909-0

For a video of the crash follow this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLexl8AyCck

12Sep 2007 SAS Flight2748 Copenhagen - Palanga
Gear collapsed upon landing, aircraft diverted to Vilnius for the emergency landing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_Flight_2748

Follow this link for a video showing the aircraft following the crash:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070912-0

27Sep 2007 SAS Fligth2867 Bergen - Copenhagen
Right main landing gear failed to extend prior to landing.
http://www.flysas.com/en/Media-cente...egarding-flight--SK-2867/?vst=true

Follow this link for a video of the crash, in Norwegian sorry:
http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/nyheter/spill/verdi/19053

The interview in the latest video, is with the spokesman for Widerøe, who went on to say their 4 planes along with SAS' fleet of Dash 8Q400s were grounded, and that Bombardier and the Q400 has some way to go, to gain back the trust from the flying public.

Personally, this string of accidents, have made me choose KLM/NWA for a flight later this fall to Seattle. Having to battle a possible rerouting made me choose KLM/NWA, although SK usually is the better option itineary/comfort wise.
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:59 pm

Thanks for that summary!!

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 121):
Personally, this string of accidents, have made me choose KLM/NWA for a flight later this fall to Seattle. Having to battle a possible rerouting made me choose KLM/NWA, although SK usually is the better option itineary/comfort wise.

I'm sure SAS' Dash 8s wont be flying for a long time. Not until the Danish government and SAS are 150% sure these aircraft are airworthy and safe.... personally i agree with a number of people here who say that SAS will not have these aircraft for much longer.

Also i have another question... Have SAS had any technical related accidents with other aircraft types before? Or accidents that were blamed on SAS' own maintainance standards/procedures?
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BrianDromey
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 113):
I know this is crude, but it is just to demonstate a ballpark figure of how many cycles older Q400s in BE fleet may have done.

I do seem to remember that on a flyBe thread there were AWFUL reports of dispatch reliability of the Q400, comments like (from memory) "everything is built to a price and the Q400 is built to a very cheap price..."

The Q400 is clearly less than perfect, but what airliner is not. The probelm for SAS is a PR disaster and the loss of confidence of the crews in the aircraft. The professionalisim and the lack of inhuries in the 3 accidents points to the high standards and importance of training at SAS, IMHO.

IIRC, SK sent some of the Q400s back to be "remanufactured" and refused to accecpt any more at one point until problems were solved, not that this has anything to do with the gear problems, but SAS and the Q400 have not been a match made in heaven, while they have operated F50/70, B707, B737, B747, B767, DC-9/MD-80/MD-90, A300/A310/A319/A321/A330/A340 all without so many problems. It just does not add up.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 118):
Oh, and if you think SAS is going to ground a 70-seat turboprop and arbitrarily replace it with a brand new, unproven 100-seat regional jet -- or even worse -- an A318, doesn't really understand what factors go into fleet decisions.

My thoughts exactly. The Danes have never liked the Q400's from day one, now the reputation is totally destroyed. Its ATRs or nothing for SAS, there is no way PR can bring the Q400 back from where it is now in the minds of teh Danish public and media.
 
[email protected]
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 123):
IIRC, SK sent some of the Q400s back to be "remanufactured" and refused to accecpt any more at one point until problems were solved, not that this has anything to do with the gear problems, but SAS and the Q400 have not been a match made in heaven, while they have operated F50/70, B707, B737, B747, B767, DC-9/MD-80/MD-90, A300/A310/A319/A321/A330/A340 all without so many problems. It just does not add up

While SAS has operated a wide variety of aircraft, they haven't operated the Fokker 70 (I think you mean the F28), neither the B707 (they did fly the Convair CV-990 for a few years though) nor the A310 (just the A300).

For a full list of the historic and current fleet, visit the best resource on the net:
http://www.plane-spotter.com/Airlines/SAS/The_fleet.pdf
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
 
rampkontroler
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 121):
12Aug 2007 Jeju Air Flight502 Jeju - Busan
Runway overrun with gear collapse
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...812-0

Well, if he ran off the runway and THEN the gear collapsed, that seems entirely another matter.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 123):
I do seem to remember that on a flyBe thread there were AWFUL reports of dispatch reliability of the Q400, comments like (from memory) "everything is built to a price and the Q400 is built to a very cheap price..."

If flybe was that unhappy with their first Q400s, I doubt they would have ordered another 15 (with 15 more options) a few months ago to add to their earlier orders for 30.
http://www.flybe.com/news/0705/08.htm
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 123):
The Danes have never liked the Q400's from day one, now the reputation is totally destroyed.

Let me correct you- all of Scandinavia now hates the Q400 (including Scandinavians living abroad). It will be a major PR problem for SAS to continue to operate this type. Now it can certainly be used against them. I'm about to fly on a Q400 in three weeks. It is not very likely that this will happen. I'm not sure what my family and I will end up flying on at all at this point.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 118):
find all these comments about "it obviously is Bombardier's fault" rather ridiculous. Do you have know idea what the problem is. The reality is that this seems to be particularly impacting SAS. That would tend to suggest that it's more than just the aircraft.

Could it be so that quality assurance at Bombardier, and early on when the first Q400's were built, was different than for the more recent batches that were produced? Could there have been changes in parts, the quality of these, and/or how these were assembled that differed from the early batches that were delivered to SAS? What is your thought on this?

Testing and certification of the Q400 before any delivery can be made to a customer comes to mind here also. I find it hard to believe that Bombardier would not have caught these problems early knowing that their testing and certification process is as tough and thorough as I assume it is. Are you as surprised about this as I am?

Scalebuilder
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Danny
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 42):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 9):
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
This seems like a SAS problem more than a DH4 problem

Seems so, because any other Q400 operators dont have any of this problem.

This statement is more than crap.

I remember about a year ago concerns were raised about quality of maintenance at SAS. At the time it related to A330/340s. Fact is no other operators experience series of gear collapses in their Q400s.

SAS could take AT72-500 which would do the job and is much more reliable aircraft.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:02 am

Didn't the Danish government rule out SAS being to blame for the accidents in AAL and Lithuania? Or is this investigation still ongoing?... Of course there is the possibility that SAS is at fault, i seriously doubt it considering how well trained their air crews are... We should take our hats of to them for ensuring the safe evacuation of all passengers involved in all three incidents.

Also a passenger onboard the flight took a picture of the landing gear from inside the plane... link is here: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...ice=bildeviser&nr=0&felt=brodtekst for the picture and http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article2070298.ece for the article (in Norwegian). I wont upload it here because of copyright... The landing gear is barely sticking out!

[Edited 2007-10-27 17:12:05]

[Edited 2007-10-27 17:14:42]
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doug_or
Posts: 3244
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Rampkontroler (Reply 125):
Well, if he ran off the runway and THEN the gear collapsed, that seems entirely another matter.

That was my reaction. Synopsis implies that is what happened. Anyone know more?

Narrative:
The DHC-8 landed on either unway 18L or 18R and went off the side of the runway.It ran into a drainage ditch which lies between both runways. The left hand main gear leg collapsed and propeller blades separated.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
UA_727
Posts: 156
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:35 am

Good grief, this **really** concerns me. I personally am a huge advocate of the Q-400 product, both from a business and customer perspective. This has me really worried...

I apologize for not having a source for this - i searched for about half an hour for the story - but I recall a time when I was working in BIL that QX had a Q-400 landing gear problem. I believe the flight deck got some sort of indication that that there was a problem with one of the mains after take-off from BIL. Also - passengers claim to have heard a loud noise as the gear attempted to retract (one of my fellow workers at HP was actually on this flight and gave me his perspective on the incident - IIRC, he said that he could see out the window that the gear would not fully retract into the bay). I believe the flight had to do a low fly-by over the runway so that the tower could take a look at the gear to see if it would fully deploy for landing. DARN, I wish that I could find something on this, because my memory is very foggy on this...

I'l keep looking, but at any rate, the Q-400 is such a great aircraft; i hate to see this happening, and truly hope that a solution will be found soon.

Thanks,

-UA-
"AW - I'm on Board..."
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:14 am

This is surprising, what is Bombardier doing about this?
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hightower
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:18 am

It's too bad for SK with their current status as an airline just keeping above the deep waters, but I sure wouldn't fly 'em if i saw that q400 at the gate... wonder whose fault it is. Bombardier or SAS mechs... my guess is probably both.
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scalebuilder
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 132):
Bombardier or SAS mechs... my guess is probably both

Likely you're wrong (though I can't prove it). SAS maintenance is admired, and worldwide, and should it be so that this part has anything to do with the recurring operational problems of the Q400, you would think that SAS would have all kinds of problems maintaining the rest of their fleet to acceptable standards as well. SAS clearly does not have that problem.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
acjazzame
Posts: 43
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:07 am

Just Curious, does SAS maintain any other turboprops right now? How long was the F50 in operation with them?
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 134):
Likely you're wrong (though I can't prove

looks like anet is still screwing up, you quoted Hightower but its said you quoted me  scratchchin , It probably is Bombardier's fault.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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czbbflier
Posts: 866
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:14 am

This is really distressing. IMO Dehavilland Canada has an excellent reputation... and so has SAS. It appears that after the last series of collapses, the Airworthiness Directive (AD) issued by Transport Canada was a very simple one: In addition to doing a general visual inspection of the entire assembly,

Quote:
...perform a general visual inspection of the left hand and right hand main landing gear retract actuator jam nut to ensure the wire lock is in place and the nut is secured. If the wire lock is not in place or the jam nut is not secured, prior to further flight, accomplish Bombardier Repair Drawing (RD) 8/4-32-059, Issue 5, or later approved revision.

It then goes on to require a similar inspection one month or 250 landings later, which ever comes first.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what exactly was the cause of this failure but if it turns out to be the same issue, how could this have possibly been missed?

Bombardier has a lot of catching up to do in the confidence-department... orders or no orders.

You will find the Airworthiness Directive by clicking here and entering "CF-2007-20" into the AD Number search box on the left.

(By the way, FYI the Bombardier Q400 is actually the DHC-8 Series 4, not a DH-4 as I have been reading here)  duck 
 
Baron52ta
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:52 am

RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 57):
The right-hand landing gear on a SAS Dash4-Q800.

That would be DHC8-400(Q400) to all referring the them as DH4

but as to no one else having the gear problems, when the last SAS Q4 collapsed there was a Flybe one the same day or within days and BA had a Q3 incident about the same time.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 137):
I suppose we'll have to wait and see what exactly was the cause of this failure but if it turns out to be the same issue, how could this have possibly been missed?

I doubt this is the same issue. The problem on the first two gear failures was that the gear was coming down too quickly. The gear retract actuator is supposed to dampen the gear as it comes down, but when it became detached from the drag brace the gear was allowed to freefall and that damaged the gear which led to the failures. In this incident, it appears that the gear would not extend.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 139):
The gear retract actuator is supposed to dampen the gear as it comes down, but when it became detached from the drag brace the gear was allowed to freefall and that damaged the gear which led to the failures. In this incident, it appears that the gear would not extend.

Funny how it strikes me that an unappropriate or flawed fix to the first issue you mention could easily lead to the latter...

I hate to speculate on aviation incidents though, and it could be another issue altogether, which would not necessarily be a good thing.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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teme82
Posts: 1353
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 116):
Yes that is correct..

Thanks. It makes me wonder why the problem has been the right side. Only thing that I can Imagine are design fault on the structure or wrong materials. Anyways it's not looking good for SK and Bombardier ...  Sad
Flying high and low
 
Someone83
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting Acjazzame (Reply 135):
Just Curious, does SAS maintain any other turboprops right now? How long was the F50 in operation with them?

SAS still has and uses the F50. SAS Norway has 6 F50 and their fleet and partially owned Air Baltic also have a few of them and AFAIK most of them are x-SK aircrafts
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3024
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 124):
they haven't operated the Fokker 70 (I think you mean the F28), neither the B707 (they did fly the Convair CV-990 for a few years though) nor the A310 (just the A300).

Ah, right. Sorry about that! My history with SAS aircraft is somewhat blurry, but it seems like they have operated a few of almost every aircraft ever manufactured, so I think my point is still good! Cheers though.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 126):
If flybe was that unhappy with their first Q400s,

Its not flyBe that are unhappy, its the people dispcacching them. flyBe has become known as flymaybe around the UK and Ireland, and the number of tech delays I have seen on this particlar aircraft is quite high, I travel through MAN at least once a month and there is always one Q400 flight "delayed due to technical problems". Is not to say that the Q400 does not make money for flyBe, or to say they are unhappy with the aircraft, but it certainly is not as reliable as it probably should be.

Brian.
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1546
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:22 am

Am i the only one who thinks Bombardier hasn't given an adequate response to the Dash 8 incidents?? I mean the Dash 8 seems to have landing gear problems, not only with SAS but also other airlines... compare that to some aircraft types that never have had a gear collapse... like the 777 for example (or am i wrong?)

Well i think the Dash 8 program looks to be in jepoardy now. SAS is going to take Bombardier to court, which could cost them hundreds of millions of dollars and I doubt other airlines will put in orders for the Q400 if/until the problems are identified and sorted out... Probably good news for the ATR program!!

Oh well poor SAS will have a bad time offloading their Q400s... who would want them?
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cainanuk
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:05 pm

RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 143):
Its not flyBe that are unhappy, its the people dispcacching them. flyBe has become known as flymaybe around the UK and Ireland, and the number of tech delays I have seen on this particlar aircraft is quite high, I travel through MAN at least once a month and there is always one Q400 flight "delayed due to technical problems". Is not to say that the Q400 does not make money for flyBe, or to say they are unhappy with the aircraft, but it certainly is not as reliable as it probably should be.

Also small delays at MAN become long delays at MAN because not all of the engineers are Q4 qualified as they are the ex BA guys. Little stuff, no big deal. More serious stuff and you are flying an engineer in from GLA or EXE.
Cainan Cornelius
 
B747forever
Posts: 13878
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 144):
I doubt other airlines will put in orders for the Q400 if/until the problems are identified and sorted out..

Think you have wrong. QF has put a order for the Q400. But they did it before this accident, right???
Work Hard, Fly Right
1052 flights/294 airports/180 airlines
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 146):
QF has put a order for the Q400. But they did it before this accident, right???

Yes i think they did but maybe when the results official results of the accident enquiries emerge, they might change their minds or even delay the orders. But of course that is speculation.. We need to see what Bombardier and the Danish Civil Aviation Authority say... lets hope Bombardier send some investigators to Copenhagen.

Personally I will avoid flying with the Q400 until i am sure they are safe again...
Base: BRU
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 40):
Prior to the accident problems with the main landing gear was reported.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 75):
There is obviously something going on with the landing gear system with the Q400, and it is now imperative that something be done to solve the issue

I did not know how lucky we were that our landing gear problem on a flight CPH-AAR were the other way around a year ago (23-10-2006). The captain could not retract the landing gear, but according to him the gear was perfectly locked in the down position and we returned safely to CPH.

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 82):
I still have full confidence to SK Group safety. Some of you are saying Scandinavian pax don't want Q400. That would be Asian style idiocy as far as I'm concerned. The Q400 is perfectly fine to fly, some issues with SK that Bombardier should take care of. SK has requested this hundreds of times.

Reminds me of the reputation of F100s in Brazil...
 
B747forever
Posts: 13878
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RE: Dash8 Gear Collapse At CPH

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 147):
Personally I will avoid flying with the Q400 until i am sure they are safe again...

I will not avoid to fly the Q400s, but I will avoid to fly SKs Q400s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
1052 flights/294 airports/180 airlines

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