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Markw787
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Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:13 pm

Polish press reported that an Air Europa Boeing 737-800 almost crashed at Katowice, Poland on Saturday night.
The plane was chartered to bring Polish soldiers from the Middle East and was on its way from Beirut.
During the approach to Katowice in foggy conditions the aircraft descended too low and damaged approach lights to the runway stretching 870 meters before the runway. The approach lights varied in height from less than 1 meter to 10 meters.
The aircraft suffered extensive damage to the fuselage, wings and the engine coverings but managed to land safely with 111 passengers and 11 crewmembers. Polish Aviation authority is investigating the accident. The aircraft will remain in Katowice for repairs. The repairs to the approach lights will take a few weeks and will affect landings of some aircraft in bad weather conditions.
This is the link to the Polish website reporting the accident (sorry in Polish only):
http://polskalokalna.pl/kraj/polska_...zil-lotnisko-w-pyrzowicach,1001405
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:16 pm

Thank god no one got hurt!!

The 737-800 has suffered a lot of misfortune recently... a lot of it just accidental!

Did the passengers evacuate or disembark normally?

[Edited 2007-10-28 05:16:27]
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B747forever
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 1):
The 737-800 has suffered a lot of misfortune recently

Please dont start any speculations about why, like the Q400s.


Good that any one got hurt.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
strudders
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:19 pm

Good grief!

They were very lucky to plant the kite on the ground!

I would imagine pictures of the A/C will be difficult to come by. However it would have only take 1 light to be ingested and it would have been on the deck.

Best Regards

Struds
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Please dont start any speculations about why, like the Q400s.

Well its a fact that recently 737-800s have suffered misfortune... Taiwan, Brazil, Kenya and now here. Also it is pretty obvious that it wasnt a techinal problem here... Nor was it in Brazil. Just bad luck unfortunately Sad. I like the 738
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zeke
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):

Well its a fact that recently 737-800s have suffered misfortune... Taiwan, Brazil, Kenya and now here. Also it is pretty obvious that it wasnt a techinal problem here... Nor was it in Brazil. Just bad luck unfortunately Sad. I like the 738

Correct, the 737 is a very very safe well designed and built airframe.

Seems it was on approach to runway 27 at KTW/EPKT PYRZOWICE, looking at the notams.

A7697/07 - RWY 27 APPROACH FLASHING LIGHTS U/S. 28 OCT 05:30 2007 UNTIL 30 OCT 23:59 2007 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 28 OCT 06:07 2007

A7696/07 - RWY 27 PRECISION APPROACH CATEGORY I LIGHTNING SYSTEM U/S. 28 OCT 05:30 2007 UNTIL 30 OCT 23:59 2007 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 28 OCT 06:01 2007



Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:55 pm

At least no one got hurt. It does bring up questions on the ILS. Was the Glide Slope (GS) working properly? Was an aircraft or vehicle parked inside the GS critical area, and cause the GS beam to bend? Was the HSI giving the proper information to the pilots, or were they flying the approach below the GS (I cannot imagine anyone doing that in low visibility or fog).

Now on the ALS, those lights should have been mounted on frangable fixtures that should have broken away before causing major damage to the airplane. What kind of ALS is installed on this runway, a MALSR or an ALSF-2? I know Zeke posted the NOTAM saying the Cat I ALS was unusable. But, an ALSF-2 system can be illuminated as a MALSR.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:30 pm

Bad luck, no such thing in aviation.
Here´s a pic of the airport,
https://www.airliners.net/open.file/0584121/M/
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:00 pm

Sounds like almost certainly pilot error in this case.

Things like this simply should not happen.  no 
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
sandrozrh
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 8):
Sounds like almost certainly pilot error in this case

You sound like the tabloid media.

So many things could have possibly gone wrong here that it's just not fair to jump on the crew first, even though that's always the easiest thing to do.

Anyway, glad it all turned out ok.
 
kaitak
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 9):
Anyway, glad it all turned out ok.

Well, up to a point; I'm sure Air Europa has slightly higher operational standards than "any landing you walk away from is a good one"!

Here's a thread from PPRUNE, where you can see photos of the damage to the aircraft. Apparently, the crew just taxied in and parked as if nothing had happened - not a word to the tower!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298066
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
Also it is pretty obvious that it wasnt a techinal problem here

dont be so fast, last night we were on the ILS for 06 in ist, CAVOK weather, and the localizer went nuts, and on the Boeing if that happens, with a coupled app, it disconnects....then it reconnected by our selection and this time we were approaching 5 degrees off, centered.....so don't be so fast.....to blame pilots or anything really, it could be anything....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
luisca
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:02 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 8):
Sounds like almost certainly pilot error in this case.

Things like this simply should not happen.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 10):
Well, up to a point; I'm sure Air Europa has slightly higher operational standards than "any landing you walk away from is a good one"!

These kind of things are almost always a case of mustgetthereitis were they continue an unstabilized approach and go below minimums.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:05 pm

This does not look good at all! :O









For once the media does not seem to have exaggerated  Wink

Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 12):

These kind of things are almost always a case of mustgetthereitis were they continue an unstabilized approach and go below minimums.

Yep, I was thinking the exact same thing.
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:15 pm

how do you carve the side of the CFM without hitting the lip of the engine cowl....was it crabbed to the right???
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
RIXrat
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:20 pm

I've been to the sleepy Katowice airport twice this year aboard EuroLot ATR-42. The place used to be a Warsaw Pact fighter base.

I find it interesting, according to the press, that the pilot did not notify ATC that he'd taken out a bunch of lights while landing. It was the ground crew that discovered damage to the aircraft. Also, the press says, the pilot had alcohol on his breath.
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 15):
how do you carve the side of the CFM without hitting the lip of the engine cowl....was it crabbed to the right???

I was wondering the same thing, but if you take a very close look at my first pic you will see that there is a cut on the engine nacelle and that the whole thing seems to be bent to the right.

Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
SirDeath
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:28 pm

Just goes to show you the 737 is a tough bird... pretty easy to beat up, but pretty hard to kill. Even though it was most likely caused by pilot error, I do give props to the pilots for pulling their heads out of their a$$es long enough to get everyone down safe (again the HUA comment only applies if it was pilot error). As my grandmother (who was Polish) used to say, "Any landing you can walk away from is a good one."
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:39 pm

Wow. Very lucky it made it down safe after that. A few might more feet lower and this may have been a different kind of thread.

I dont think we should jump to conclusions and blame pilots. There could have been an instrument malfunction etc.

Are those wings trashed now? How do you fix those?

What about the engines? Are they fixable? Does anyone knpw the cost of replacement 737 engines ?
 
luisca
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 19):
I dont think we should jump to conclusions and blame pilots. There could have been an instrument malfunction etc.

That is imposible, the 737 has at least 2 if not more fully independant set of instruments, if there is a disagreement between them the approach should be discontinued, there is also the obivous ALTIMETER wich should tell you you are close to the ground and your eyes should tell you there is no runway underneath you. The minimums for a CAT I ILS are 200 feet, the plane was obviously bellow that.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
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zeke
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
those lights should have been mounted on frangable fixtures that should have broken away before causing major damage to the airplane.

That is exactly what looks like happened, the damage in my view would have been a lot worse if they were not frangible.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
What kind of ALS is installed on this runway,

The chart says the RW 27 has sequenced flashing lights, high intensity runway lights, and high intensity approach light system.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
I know Zeke posted the NOTAM saying the Cat I ALS was unusable.

I am assuming considering the date, the Notam was issued after they were damaged.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
fhgandi
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:01 pm

Autoland is a good procedure in fog... Does KTW have CAT3 procedures?
 
BCNGRO
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:04 pm

I bet $1 pilots thought they where landing at PMI (sea level) as usual. They checked the altimeter and thought: "oh, long way to go yet" and kept going down until they hit the ground.
At the bus station, buses stop. At the train station, trains stop. At my desk, I have a work station.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting BCNGRO (Reply 23):
I bet $1 pilots thought they where landing at PMI (sea level) as usual. They checked the altimeter and thought: "oh, long way to go yet" and kept going down until they hit the ground.

could well be, there is no protection in the Boeing for transition level if you don't specify it in the descent/forecast page, normally it would turn amber at the TL or TA depending on mode.....

lucky nothing bad really happened, aside from damage to materials  Smile
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Alessandro
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:10 pm

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:15 am

A couple similar incidents have occurred here in the past, although not recently, but both in Texas... At least 10 years ago, maybe 15...

A 727-200 making a low-viz approach at HRL went missed approach and diverted to SAT. At some point at SAT (IIRC, another crew picking up the aircraft to ferry it SAT to someplace else did their walkaround and) found the belly and lower tail section all messed up from having hit the approach lights at HRL. FAA yanked the tickets of all 3 crewmembers for 1 year if memory serves.

A 737-300 hit some approach lights coming into DFW early one foggy morning. The flight, ironically, also diverted to SAT.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bennett123
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:11 am

IMO the fact that they did not report a problem suggests either that they knew but were keeping stum or that they were asleep/drunk/or drugged.

Surely they would have heard something or felt the impact. Equally would,nt something register on the instruments. I understand that crew do a walk round before take off, would they do so after landing.

Out of the options that I suggested, presumably if they knew that they had hit something, then it is likely that the loaders/fuelers will spot something, (and report it to put themselves in the clear if for no other reason).

This leads me to wonder about overtiredness. I would expect substance abuse to affect take off rather than landing, because unless they were abusing in the cockpit, which seems unlikely, the effects generally fade over time.

It would be interesting to see their worksheets.
 
kaitak
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:05 pm

I was just reading through the Flight article on this ...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...cks-katowice-airport-lighting.html

"Passengers heard a noise ... but didn't feel anything."

DIDN'T FEEL ANYTHING? I would doubt this very much; I think that if your aircraft had torn away much of the approach lights, damaged the wing fairing and damaged the engines as the photos above show, you would certainly have felt something!

As for repairs, looking at the wing photo above, the main damage seems to be to one of the fairings and of course, to the No1, which can easily be replaced (although not cheaply!). I think it is repairable. At an insurance value of $40m, there is a good incentive to do so!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:14 pm

It doesn't look good for the pilots. The aviation authorities generally forgive if you make a mistake (as long as you did not intentionally disobey rules), but the first law in aviation is to own up if you caused damage. Not reporting obviozs damage or an incident is condidered almost as bad as lying about it. I knew pilots who lost their licences over not reporting incidents.

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-29 14:17:51]
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saab2000
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:31 pm

Why were some relevant responses to this thread deleted?
smrtrthnu
 
Markw787
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:48 am

A lot aviation proffesionals speculated wheather tha approach was an auotland or handflown. I found an excellent comment from an Air Europa 737 captain on PPrune :

"Hello. I work for Air Europa. Low visibility app are performed in dual channel (both autipilots) and it's recommended to perform an autoland. In CAT II&IIIA autoland in mandatory in our company. I know very well the crew of that flight. There were two Captains and a F/O flying that day. Both Captains are very good professionals with more than 20 years flying commercial airplanes. One of them is a TRE/TRI who has flown in the Spanish Airforce as flight instructor on the F5 fleet. The other one has flown a lot of aircrafts type, from DC3 to B767. They know what they are flying and I have no explanation of what had happened in Katowice that night. Air Europa has a very high security standards and all crewmembers are very well instructed on simulators about all emergency situations that can be found in manuals.
Please be patient. As soon as I have news of what happened I'll let all of you know but ,please, don't blame the crew since you have all the information about the accident. They are good pilots,good persons and excelent professionals.

PD: One thing is for sure. They were no drunk at all!!!!!!!!"

I guess it's too early to speculate wheather this was a pilot error or there were other factors that contributed to the accident. I really would like to see the final accident report.
 
Danny
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Markw787 (Reply 31):
I work for Air Europa. Low visibility app are performed in dual channel (both autipilots) and it's recommended to perform an autoland. In CAT II&IIIA autoland in mandatory in our company.

Not really relevant comment as KTW has only Cat I ILS therefore the aircraft had to be manually flown. Unless they attempted to make auto land on Cat I equipment and things went wrong (speculation only).
 
KELPkid
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 26):
A 737-300 hit some approach lights coming into DFW early one foggy morning. The flight, ironically, also diverted to SAT.

Did they know that they had hit something? In my mind, once I know that my aircraft has hit something, it has officially become an emergency, and the official destination becomes the nearest suitable field (if in IMC, then of course the nearest suitable field with acceptable landing minimums given the WX conditions...).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Air Europa 737-800 Almost Crashes In Katowice

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 33):
Did they know that they had hit something? In my mind, once I know that my aircraft has hit something, it has officially become an emergency, and the official destination becomes the nearest suitable field (if in IMC, then of course the nearest suitable field with acceptable landing minimums given the WX conditions...).

I think they did...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

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