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SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:22 pm

SAS CEO Mats Jansson has told the media today that the entire fleet of Dash 8Q400s will be removed from the fleet. This decision was made with the board today.

More here, in danish only:
http://epn.dk/handel_service/transport_logistik/article1146408.ece
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
 
ENU
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:23 pm

At what pace? Do they have any short-term solution?
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:25 pm

I am not surprised.

Wonder what the will replace this with now. They have to decide pretty fast because they need a/c for the routes that was served by the Q400s.
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:26 pm

SAS Group net news:

SAS removes Dash 8 Q400 from service permanently

Following the recent period of events involving aircraft of the Dash 8 Q400 type, SAS's management, following an unscheduled meeting of the Board of Directors held today, has decided to immediately discontinue the use of this type of aircraft.

"Confidence in the Q400 has diminished considerably and our customers are becoming increasingly doubtful about flying in this type of aircraft. Accordingly, with the Board of Directors' approval, I have decided to immediately remove Dash 8 Q400 aircraft from service," says Mats Jansson, President and Chief Executive Officer of SAS.

In January 2000, SAS was the first customer to use the Dash 8 Q400 in its traffic operations. The aircraft have accounted for approximately 5 percent of the Group's passengers. The aim is to replace traffic based on the Q400 by reallocating current aircraft in the SAS Group's fleet and by means of leasing.

"The Dash 8 Q400 has given rise to repeated quality-related problems and we can now conclude that the aircraft does not match our passengers' requirements concerning punctuality and regularity. SAS's flight operations have always enjoyed an excellent reputation and there is a risk that use of the Dash 8 Q400 could eventually damage the SAS brand," says John Dueholm, Deputy CEO of SAS.

Due to the decision, SAS's traffic services will be affected by flight cancellations in the period immediately ahead. The customers concerned will be given an opportunity to either rebook or have their tickets refunded. For detailed information about traffic services, reference is made to the airlines' various websites (www.sas.se www.sas.dk www.wideroe.no)
SAS Group Corporate Communication
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CV990
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:26 pm

Hi!

Pretty radical that...but absolutely acceptable! Let Bombardier find out what going out in this plane and how why this is happening mostly with SAS! I applause this move from SAS!!!
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teme82
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:31 pm

Smart move but what to replacement?? I think that ATR has full book of orders and superjet isn't ready. So EMB's for SK???
Flying high and low
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 5):
So EMB's for SK???

That would I like to see happen.
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Alessandro
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:36 pm

Guess they talk to SAAB and lease some planes ASAP, SAAB 2000.
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voodoo
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:36 pm

Maybe they will lease out the service to some airline that flies..... Q400s?
Maybe Air Baltic if they just ordered them. heh


Anyway Flybe should jump at these ... they service them already anyway. heh heh
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
CXfirst
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:36 pm

Does this mean SAS, or the SAS group. Will airlines such as Wideroe drop the Q400 (all of wideroes fleet are dash', some being Q400's)

-CXfirst
 
BrianDromey
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
I am not surprised.

Neither am I. At teh rate the incidents were happening it was just unaccecptable. No way could SK have kept this a/c in service, regardless of who is or is not at fault.

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 5):
So EMB's for SK???

Hmm, as much as I would like to see it, I dont know where they are going to get them from in suffeciently large numbers. I would imagine this is a good oppertunity to get rid of a fleet type and just use the aircraft they currently have more effeciently. They might be able to pick up some A320s or 737 for the larger routes and move the 319 and 736 to the lower demand routes, or bring back some MDs that are leased to Spanair.

Brian.
 
gsosbee
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:38 pm

I hope that SAS's action is not a move to keep SAS's maintenance out of the investigation. Without problems at other operators the finger begins to point inward.
 
BCNGRO
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:38 pm

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 8):
Maybe they will lease out the service to some airline that flies..... Q400s?
Maybe Air Baltic if they just ordered them. heh

Anyway Flybe should jump at these ... they service them already anyway. heh heh

I don't think anyone wants them now. I think they will seek a compensation from the manufacturer.

[Edited 2007-10-28 07:39:16]
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RayChuang
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:38 pm

The big problem for ATR is that after that unfortunate crash with the ATR72 due to wing icing in 1994, I'm not sure if SAS wants to buy the ATR72 to replace the now-phased out Dash 8-Q400's. I'm sure Horizon Air might take the Q400's once they pass a full C-check overhaul, though.  Smile
 
columba
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 5):
Smart move but what to replacement?? I think that ATR has full book of orders and superjet isn't ready. So EMB's for SK???

Embraers or Suckhoi Super Jet sounds likely. If the Superjet can be delivered within one or two years and SAS will find an interim solution (second hand ATRs or Saabs, 737s etc...). I doubt they would go for another Bombardier product like the CRJ700 or 900.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):
Guess they talk to SAAB and lease some planes ASAP, SAAB 2000.

Are there any Saab 2000s around ???
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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OA260
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:40 pm

Im glad they have finally taken this decision. Something is wrong and they couldnt possibly have expected to carry on like this. I hope a full investigation will take place even if they do not plan to keep any of them in the fleet.
 
levg79
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 8):
Maybe they will lease out the service to some airline that flies..... Q400s?
Maybe Air Baltic if they just ordered them. heh

BT doesn't operate any Q400s.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
Alessandro
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:46 pm

Columba, problem is that SAAB has rebuilt a quite a few of the to AWACS planes.
I think lot of MD-80ies will replace them in the beginning, we´re talking about 27 planes, that´s a lot.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
hightower
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:47 pm

It had to happen. Not many in scandinavia that follows any source of media trusts SAS anymore.... the 3rd time was simply unforgiveable. It'll be interesting to follow what'll happen next and what SAS will do...
Take action and responsibility to do yours for the environment... thx
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
we´re talking about 27 planes, that´s a lot.

It is 22 Q400s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
columba
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
I think lot of MD-80ies will replace them in the beginning, we�re talking about 27 planes, that�s a lot.

Nice, I am a huge MD 80 fan and I am happy for every plane that is not an A320 or 737 so I hope I would see some MDs here in TXL.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Alessandro
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 19):



Quoting B747forever (Reply 19):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
we´re talking about 27 planes, that´s a lot.

It is 22 Q400s.

"Kigger vi på selve beslutningen at grounde 27 fly, er det en drastisk beslutning. De 27 fly transportere 5 pct"
From the Danish link, clearly says 27.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
voodoo
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 16):
BT doesn't operate any Q400s.

Yeah I was speculating on a previously unidentified order for 10.
But I see it has gone to Germania/Air Berlin. UFO Q400 Order Placed (by Flying-Tiger Oct 23 2007 in Civil Aviation)
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
From the Danish link, clearly says 27

But airfleets.net says that SAS has 22active Q400s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:00 pm

Widerøe is also cutting the Q400 from its fleet:

Article in Norwegian only:
http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostafjells/vestfold/1.3871221

Rought translation of the major points:
The Q400 phase out will encompass the entire SAS group. We're working with temporary solutions to carry out the flight schedule, but we're also on the lookout for other aircraft types to replace the Q400, says Richard Kongsteien spokesperson for WF.

We have backup planes we can put into service now, but this is not the best solution in the longterm. We'll go to the leasing market to find a suitable replacement aircraft which will cover for the Q400s until a replacement aircraft can be delivered. Major disruptions to the flight schedules at Sandfjord Torp is to be expected today, worsening on monday.


I'm quite surprised WF as such a long standing customer at DHC has gone to this step. They have operated DHC products right back to the DHC-2 Beaver in the -50ies. This is a massive setback for Bombardier, with repercussions that can easily be as bad as the mentioned ATR-72 icing problem, possibly even worse.

I think the only example of a similar dumping of an entire aircraft fleet type, is Singapore Airlines dumping of the A340-300s which made a huge dent in the possibilities of the A340 afterwards.
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 24):
Widerøe is also cutting the Q400 from its fleet:

Okey, that makes it maybe for 27 Q400s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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Mortyman
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 23):
But airfleets.net says that SAS has 22active Q400s.

Could it be that they have left out the planes that Widerøe is operating ( Widerøe is part of SAS )
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 26):
Could it be that they have left out the planes that Widerøe is operating

It has to be so. Otherwise I dont know.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
BrianDromey
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 26):
Could it be that they have left out the planes that Wider¸e is operating ( Wider¸e is part of SAS )

I dont think so, on the press release it mentions both SAS and wideroe. So both airlines will pase out, I believe.

Sad really, the Q400 should have been a great aircraft for SAS.

Brian.
 
Alessandro
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:08 pm

Wideröe got 29 Dashes, 4 Q400, which means 31 all in all for SAS+Wideröe?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
B747forever
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:11 pm

Wonder if other Q400s operator will stop their service with the Q400s. ??
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OV735
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 23):
But airfleets.net says that SAS has 22active Q400s.

Some may have been leased out to other carriers.
 
SmoothDash7
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:17 pm

How about the CRJ?

With their collaboration with Cimber Air they are not completely unfamiliar with the type.

I Guess the - 700, sizewise, would be able to do the job?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:17 pm

According to Aftonbladet, all Dash-8 Q400 are now grounded by the Scandi Authorities regardless of operator: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article1115988.ab
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
scalebuilder
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 11):
I hope that SAS's action is not a move to keep SAS's maintenance out of the investigation. Without problems at other operators the finger begins to point inward.

This is a pretty crude statement knowing that maintenance personnel are as dedicated to the safety for passengers as the crews operating the aircraft. Your statement is incredibly insulting. What could SAS maintenance personnel possibly have gained by sabotaging the Q400? A better contract or the loss of a job? What do you think?

The decision to finally pull the plug on the Q400 is a good one. There is no need to throw good money after bad money. On the upside the only positive to mention here is that nobody flying in the SAS Q400 ever got killed. Kudos to the SAS crews who got everybody back on safe ground. They should all be saluted for a job very well done.

SAS may now take Bombardier to court and ask for restitution. If I bought a car that performed as poorly as the Q400 has for SAS, the lemon law would have enabled me to return it to the dealer, and I would have gotten my money back. SAS should do the same. I believe their effort to train crews, maintain and operate this particular aircraft was honest, and I believe they gave the effort time and patience.

I wish for SAS to prevail in this effort, and I wish for this great airline to once again deserve the confidence of the traveling public. Clearly people have their doubts today.

Scalebuilder
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BMED
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:18 pm

But it still seems unclear as to what aircraft are going to be used to operate the flights. I guess you could use A319/737 but thats a jump in capacity and do the Q400 not serve small airports in the SAS network? I don't know anything about what the airports are like in the region.
Living the jetset life! No better way to be
 
Alessandro
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:20 pm

Smooth, why would they do that, with their relation with Bombardier in shambles I think they´ll route out all the Dashes also from Wideröe.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
extspotter
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:24 pm

I would guess that at a low enough price, QX and BE will take the majority of the Q400s and C check them to bolster their current fleets, help replace the Ex BACON E145s (BE) and have spares if the dispatch rates are so horrid. Anyhow, I remember seeing SK Q400s here for maintainance all the time, too bad they won't be around anymore, makes a change from BE everything (We are getting a PD A320 soon too!).

Alex @ EXT/EGTE
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SKAirbus
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:25 pm

A wise and sensible decision by SAS in my opinion! SAS is as usual putting safety first and I applause them for it...
Now they just have to find replacement aircraft. I saw an SAS Norway aircraft at CPH a few weeks back to operate some of the OSL-CPH routes... This route is exclusively operated by SAS Denmark so by allowing SAS Norway to operate it will free up some machines.

Once again well done to the crews of the three aircraft involved for ensuring that no one got killed or badly injured.

What will happen with the Q400 pilots??? Will they be retrained on other types or made redundant?

[Edited 2007-10-28 08:26:47]
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petertenthije
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:27 pm

Last thursday I saw a ARJ85 in basic SAS colours but without titles standing next to the paintshop at EIN. Could that be related?
Attamottamotta!
 
ENU
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 39):

No, that one is for Transwede (with Braathens and SAS logo/title).

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/photos/01sedjo.jpg
 
SmoothDash7
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 36):

Off course, you are right. In the heat of the moment I forgot that we are talking about the same manufacturer.

Sorry.
 
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Navigator
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:40 pm

I think this type together with the Fokker 70/100 would be excellent replacement in the short term. So now SAS has to look for leases...

https://www.airliners.net/open.file/1280772/L/
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petertenthije
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 42):
I think this type together with the Fokker 70/100 would be excellent replacement in the short term.

There are no F70s available, getting F100s might be possible.
Attamottamotta!
 
SKAirbus
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:45 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 42):
I think this type together with the Fokker 70/100 would be excellent replacement in the short term. So now SAS has to look for leases...

Maybe Flybe and SAS can do a swap... Flybe need more Q400s and also want to streamline their fleet and remove the RJs  Wink

But seriously... SAS should consider the ATR as a replacement or maybe see if they can enter a partnership with a small regional airline to operate their regional flights.. like is done with most of the major US airlines...
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Rbgso
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:48 pm

There are a bunch of Brasilias laying around. Could these be used at least on some routes?
 
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Navigator
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 44):
But seriously... SAS should consider the ATR as a replacement or maybe see if they can enter a partnership with a small regional airline to operate their regional flights.. like is done with most of the major US airlines...

Going for props was a mistake SAS will not do twice I think. Even if the ATR is a good plane I think SAS needs a larger replacement now that the market is recovering. They and their passengers also probably want a jet...
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SKAirbus
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:53 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 46):
Going for props was a mistake SAS will not do twice I think. Even if the ATR is a good plane I think SAS needs a larger replacement now that the market is recovering. They and their passengers also probably want a jet...

Good point. I also don't enjoy riding on a turboprop.. they are more uncomfortable because of the vibrations.

Well maybe SAS could order the A318.. Of course the capacity will be increased but there will be fleet commonality with the other single aisle airbuses that SAS Denmark operate... Bringing in 737NGs will not work with SAS Denmarks fleet...
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sebring
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 30):
Wonder if other Q400s operator will stop their service with the Q400s. ??

Only if they have had chronic problems which doesn't seem to be the case.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 34):
This is a pretty crude statement knowing that maintenance personnel are as dedicated to the safety for passengers as the crews operating the aircraft. Your statement is incredibly insulting. What could SAS maintenance personnel possibly have gained by sabotaging the Q400? A better contract or the loss of a job? What do you think?

Even good airlines have bad problems from time to time. In the early 1980s Air Canada had two serious back to back accidents - the Cincinnati fire with 23 fatalities and the Gimli Glider fuel-out - and though Air Canada has a very solid safety reputation, it undertook to have an outside auditor review all of its safety practices from the board room to the tarmac. One should never make assumptions, especially when there seems to be a critical mass of Q400 failures at SAS carriers.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 34):
SAS may now take Bombardier to court and ask for restitution. If I bought a car that performed as poorly as the Q400 has for SAS, the lemon law would have enabled me to return it to the dealer, and I would have gotten my money back. SAS should do the same. I believe their effort to train crews, maintain and operate this particular aircraft was honest, and I believe they gave the effort time and patience.

Lemon laws apply to cars that were trouble from their early days. These planes are not new, nor has the Q400 been a poor performer for SAS all along. I suspect SAS will sue, but the issues will be more complex and far-reaching than any lemon law. I'm sure the court will be intrigued by this critical mass of issues at SAS and lawyers for Bombardier and the suppliers of the relevant parts will ask questions about maintenance procedures, training, and the sourcing of spare parts. If a carrier's procedures are insufficient, if they don't buy OEM parts but look for bargains in the after-market, if they don't follow best practices as recommended by the manufacturer, if they had lapses of staff or excessive staff turnover, all these are issues that could come up in a court case. You assume that everything is as it should be, you assume the carrier was honest - although perhaps what we are really looking for is "effective", "diligent" and "competent". I'm sure Bombardier has nothing to gain from building an unsafe plane, and even if SAS and BBD had a poor relationship, it doesn't explain why BBD seems to have a good relationship with many contended Q400 customers and a 19-month order backlog for the aircraft.
 
2H4
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RE: SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s!

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:57 pm

What is being done with the crews? Replacing an aircraft type involves replacing the aircraft themselves, sure, but it also involves re-training the flight crews. Presumably, there will be a fair amount of downtime until a replacement fleet is found and acquired....will the pilots be paid their usual salary throughout the downtime and through training?

2H4

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