redflyer
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787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:03 am

Quote:
Finmeccanica SpA, the Italian company building carbon fiber pieces of Boeing Co.'s Dreamliner, has suspended shipments to Boeing until the U.S. planemaker is ready to fix a new schedule for production of the aircraft, which is delayed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aV.pWP6dW2Hw

I can't figure out if they are suspending the shipments unilaterally or if it's at the request of Boeing. Not even sure this is anything surprising or unknown (I haven't read every single 787 thread out there).
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
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zeke
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
I can't figure out if they are suspending the shipments unilaterally or if it's at the request of Boeing.

As WAH64D said in another thread, "it requires a minimum of 3 independent analyses, 2 official press releases, an earnings forecast conference call and a signed statement by the chief exec to be considered reliable info."

Who would ever believe what a Boeing supplier has to say about delays in a Boeing production schedule, how would they know ?

 sarcastic 
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tdscanuck
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
I can't figure out if they are suspending the shipments unilaterally or if it's at the request of Boeing.

I'd guess the latter, if for no other reason than I doubt Alenia gets paid until they ship a component so they'd want to ship all they can. I don't see what would be in it for them to suspent unilaterally...better to have Boeing pay for storage of the parts than Alenia.

Tom.
 
redflyer
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
Who would ever believe what a Boeing supplier has to say about delays in a Boeing production schedule, how would they know ?

It is strange that the announcement would come from a supplier. You would think Boeing would coordinate this, especially since the report states that there will be no financial impact to Alenia as a result of the delays (which means Alenia doesn't have a compelling reason to make the announcement out of lock-step with Boeing).

On the flip side, I'm trying to understand the significance of this announcement/admission. Since production is behind schedule, wouldn't this be expected? Indeed, wouldn't the decision to delay shipments have occurred a couple of months back?
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:16 am

Last shipment was on 09 October. CHS must be getting pretty cluttered, since nothing is going to the final assembly line... by my count there are at least five shipsets in CHS at the moment. The article doesn't state it clearly, but it seems like a move directed by Boeing. Hey, more time for stuffing, just in time for Thanksgiving.  Big grin
 
masseybrown
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
It is strange that the announcement would come from a supplier.

It's probably a "material event" (large deviation in revenue/profit plan) to Alenia and not to Boeing; so Alenia would be required to report it and Boeing wouldn't necessarily have to.
 
redflyer
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
It's probably a "material event" (large deviation in revenue/profit plan) to Alenia and not to Boeing; so Alenia would be required to report it and Boeing wouldn't necessarily have to.

I thought that, too, but the article states:

Quote:
Zappa said ''there is no financial impact'' anticipated at Alenia as a result of the current Boeing delay.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
siromega
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 4):
CHS must be getting pretty cluttered, since nothing is going to the final assembly line...

Exactly - there is no place to put this stuff. Until Boeing can get Ship 1 sorted out and put back together and ready for flight there isn't a whole lot of room for these things to just sit around.
 
masseybrown
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 6):
I thought that, too, but the article states:

Quote:
Zappa said ''there is no financial impact'' anticipated at Alenia as a result of the current Boeing delay.

Hmmmm ... Do you believe that?
 
redflyer
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 8):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 6):
I thought that, too, but the article states:

Quote:
Zappa said ''there is no financial impact'' anticipated at Alenia as a result of the current Boeing delay.

Hmmmm ... Do you believe that?

Not sure. Depends on what kind of agreement they have with Boeing, which means: is Boeing on the hook financially or not as a result of delays NOT caused by Alenia. On the other hand, as a partner in a project intended to spread the costs of new aircraft development, Alenia would be expected to share in development costs including any resulting in additional costs from unforeseen circumstances. But, again, what's the agreement between Alenia and Boeing? If I were Alenia, I might agree to go out on a limb financially on a new project, but I certainly would not accept financial loss for ANY issues, in particular those that had nothing to do with my operations. So in that case, I would expect Boeing to pick up the tab, which would mean this particular delay wouldn't have any financial impact.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 7):
Exactly - there is no place to put this stuff. Until Boeing can get Ship 1 sorted out and put back together and ready for flight there isn't a whole lot of room for these things to just sit around.

This is similar to halting the A380 convoys. If they are delaying assembly, that ripples down the chain.

But is Alenia halting production, or only shipments? At what point do they "run out of room?"
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
masseybrown
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 9):
So in that case, I would expect Boeing to pick up the tab, which would mean this particular delay wouldn't have any financial impact.

I agree with all your reasoning, except that while Boeing might very well cover the out-of-pocket costs to Alenia of any delay, I don't see them guaranteeing any lost profits. So wouldn't there have to be some impact?

But as you say, we don't know the details of the Boeing-Alenia agreement.
 
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scbriml
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 8):
Hmmmm ... Do you believe that?



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 9):
I would expect Boeing to pick up the tab

That would be my take as well. Given the complex nature of the beast, I would expect each contractor to have certain guarantees on the financial side if there's an interruption to production through no fault of their own.

If contractor A is having issues that impact contractor B, why should B be out of pocket? If there is a cost to B, I would expect a combination of A and Boeing to cover B's costs (which is where the risk sharing comes in).
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n1786b
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:27 am

Did anybody read this article? They are suspending SHIPMENTS not PRODUCTION.

"Alenia had sent six shipments to the U.S. Alenia's just finishing work on the seventh and eighth shipments, he said, and is at various stages of completion on shipments up to the 18th aircraft."

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):

This is similar to halting the A380 convoys. If they are delaying assembly, that ripples down the chain.

Exactly, but that didn't keep places like Meaulte from building and storing up to +40 A380 cockpit sections. Same thing going on here.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
But is Alenia halting production, or only shipments? At what point do they "run out of room?"

See above and the following quote "though Alenia had enough space to store fuselage sections while awaiting shipments." So I guess they feel that this is not a problem and expect shipment to resume shortly.

-n1786b
 
swallow
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:01 am

Quote: Finmeccanica SpA has suspended shipments to Boeing until the U.S. planemaker is ready to fix a new schedule for production of the aircraft

I thought Boeing had already communicated a new production schedule on Oct 24th with first delivery in late 2008 and 109 or so deliveries in 2009. Are they referring to this schedule or is a revised schedule in the offing?

Quote: The Chicago-based planemaker said Oct. 24 it's still coping with ''challenges'' linked to aircraft assembly, software integration and parts availability.

Which parts are in short supply? There seems to be info in the public domain about fasteners and FCS but not about the 'parts' shortage.
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Stitch
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:40 pm

Thanks for the clarification, n1786b. So Alenia is continuing to build shipsets, but they will not be sending them on to CHS for the time being.

Swallow, Boeing does have a production schedule planned, but that schedule is dependent on completing LN0001, which right now is "holding up the line", so to speakl. Also, Boeing is really cranking out 777s at the moment, so they are using the forward sections of both the 767 and 787 production lines to hold completed 777s that are having their interiors fitted and other final work done.

So while Boeing is capable of moving LN0001 forward now (she is supported by her own landing gear again) to free up space to start work on LN0002, at the moment it appears better to keep LN0001 where she is. Boeing is also setting up the two static test frames (LN9997 and LN9998), whose parts have been arriving the past few weeks.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:59 pm

The wings for LN 9998 arrived from Nagoya last night and word is the fuselage sections should be arriving this week and assembly of the fatigue frame should begin late this week. Parts for LN 2 (the 2nd flying aircraft) are planned to be shipped to Everett around the end of Nov/early December and the static frame (right now behind LN 1) will go into 40-23 (for the start of static tests) around early December.

So parts are starting to move again in the supply chain and Boeing is makingplans to resume production.
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:09 pm

This doesn't sound good and gives me a bad feeling, sort of like the news that came out of the A380 program; where everyone was scratching their heads as they read the press releases and saying "What"? I want to give Boeing the benefit of the doubt but I'm getting worried.

At this point there has to be a problem other just fastener shortage. If the first 787 was ready for paint July 1st, how on earth do they not have at least 1 more built a full 4 months later? Shouldn't a 787 be taxiing under its own power by now, or sitting there put together the correct way just to prove they can do it? I dont mean 9 planes or the whole original schedule,but just 1 more plane assembled perfectly? It's frustrating.

I would think boeing would have been able to completely build another 787 from new parts since July, and build it much quicker than the first one using all that they've learned.
 
slz396
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:54 pm

Interesting to note how painfully obvious the total disconnect has become between Boeing's official communication on one side and what strong rumours (first), deeds (later) and official announcements (now) from key subcontractor(s) are saying on the other.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
Who would ever believe what a Boeing supplier has to say about delays in a Boeing production schedule, how would they know?

Indeed, in several topics regarding several officiously but obviously delayed programs from the entroubled aircraft manufacturer Boeing, numerous people have taken the easy way out by asking: "Which subcontractor exactly dares to say that?", "What did they say exactly?", thus challenging the credibility and the inside knowledge of the source, rather than checking the rumour itself, despite it being undeniably true: THERE ARE NO SHIPMENTS BEING MADE.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
"it requires a minimum of 3 independent analyses, 2 official press releases, an earnings forecast conference call and a signed statement by the chief exec to be considered reliable info."

This statement is unprecedented in that Alenia are basically saying in a slightly more polite wording:
"We, Alenia, the manufacturer of the 787 fuselage, are suspending all shipments of parts to Boeing, because at present they don't have a clue when they will be able to screw them together".

Expect production to halt soon too now, as Alenia doesn't have the capacity to store hundreds of fuselage barrels neither. They were never supposed to do so and even if they have the facilities, they will likely not do so either, as it would mean inventory costs would skyrocket due to errors and mistakes for which they are not to blame...
In this regard, the statement about the absence of any financial impact from the decision is telling a lot already...

I think Boeing has some URGENT explanation to do, because a radio silence is not going to help them get rid of the growing impression the problems with the 787 are not under control nor contained. In fact they seem to be growing as more time goes by, with the program falling more behind schedule than they have timidly dared to admit so far. This very rare public remark from a key partner like Alenia can only be seen as a way to put some serious pressure on Boeing to come out and face reality: the current 'recovery plan' still isn't realistic.

[Edited 2007-10-29 06:58:26]
 
beagleboys
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:50 pm

also actually there's nothing about that on the alenia internet site... no press relase, no word...

last news on alenia website (www.alenia.it) is about ATR72 and last news on Finmeccanica website (Alenia howner) is that "Agreement signed for the development of Finmeccanica group middle managers" 26/10...
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baroque
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Expect production to halt soon too now, as Alenia doesn't have the capacity to store hundreds of fuselage barrels neither. They were never supposed to do so and even if they have the facilities, they will likely not do so either, as it would mean inventory costs would skyrocket due to errors and mistakes for which they are not to blame...

It would be interesting to know what RR are doing with T1000 production.
 
jacobin777
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
So parts are starting to move again in the supply chain and Boeing is makingplans to resume production.



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Expect production to halt soon too now

....who should I believe..I wonder... scratchchin -hint..its fairly obvious...... Wink
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Stitch
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 17):
At this point there has to be a problem other just fastener shortage.

There are, mainly in the flight control software, but what is holding up production of LN001 is the need to complete the internal fittings while the plane is together, instead of in pieces per the plan. Also, far more internal fittings need to be fitted then planned. And the majority of fasteners are being sent to the suppliers to complete other 787s, leaving less available for the first, which is not in a condition to use them all now even if they were available.

Quote:
If the first 787 was ready for paint July 1st, how on earth do they not have at least 1 more built a full 4 months later?

Because all the first 787 was ready for was painting. Nothing else. Instead of building it first and then painting it later, Boeing decided to paint it first and then build it later to meet a PR date.

Quote:
Shouldn't a 787 be taxiing under its own power by now, or sitting there put together the correct way just to prove they can do it?

That was the plan, but that plan is no longer in play.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 17):
I would think Boeing would have been able to completely build another 787 from new parts since July, and build it much quicker than the first one using all that they've learned.

The parts for the second 787 continue to be built and flown to sub-assemblers.
 
n1786b
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:53 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):

I think Boeing has some URGENT explanation to do, because a radio silence is not going to help them get rid of the growing impression the problems with the 787 are not under control nor contained.

Were you that demanding when Airbus was denying any and all A380 problems?

-n1786b
 
jacobin777
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting N1786b (Reply 23):
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):

I think Boeing has some URGENT explanation to do, because a radio silence is not going to help them get rid of the growing impression the problems with the 787 are not under control nor contained.

Were you that demanding when Airbus was denying any and all A380 problems?

..that's fairly obvious... Wink
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klkla
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:52 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Expect production to halt soon too now, as Alenia doesn't have the capacity to store hundreds of fuselage barrels neither. They were never supposed to do so and even if they have the facilities, they will likely not do so either, as it would mean inventory costs would skyrocket due to errors and mistakes for which they are not to blame...

Not completely true. Alenia was the first major screw up in the chain if you remember correctly. They shipped their initial pieces without the wiring because they were so far behind causing Boeing to have to do out of sequence work in Washington. In light of the fact that they are just as much to blame as anyone else in this problem I am sure they can and will find temporary space to store the units they create. It is also my understanding that their production rate has slowed a little because they are now doing the wiring they were suposed to do in the first place.
 
threepoint
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:53 pm

Sitting back and watching the banter regarding the various production difficulties during recent new aircraft construction serves as a very telling case study on personalities and circumstances. There are many of us, airplane enthusiasts but neutral when it comes to prefering one manufacturer over another, that are watching the incessant jockeying for some perceived superiority as each airplane maker takes turns sharing fortunes and woes.
If the ability to accurately determine personalities through anonymous web forums is possible, some graduate students would have buckets of material right here with which to complete a few doctoral theses on human behaviour and psychology.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:59 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Expect production to halt soon too now, as Alenia doesn't have the capacity to store hundreds of fuselage barrels neither.

While the 787 production plans at full capacity are impressive, I believe the schedule is closer to 100 units per annum, and not per month, so I tend to think Alenia won't be pressed for "storage space" quite so soon...
 
ikramerica
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Expect production to halt soon too now, as Alenia doesn't have the capacity to store hundreds of fuselage barrels neither.

Good thing they would never even come close to having to store hundreds then. But we'll keep that in mind. When Alenia gets HUNDREDS of barrels ahead of everyone else, they'll have to stop work...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 26):
Sitting back and watching the banter regarding the various production difficulties during recent new aircraft construction serves as a very telling case study on personalities and circumstances. There are many of us, airplane enthusiasts but neutral when it comes to prefering one manufacturer over another, that are watching the incessant jockeying for some perceived superiority as each airplane maker takes turns sharing fortunes and woes.
If the ability to accurately determine personalities through anonymous web forums is possible, some graduate students would have buckets of material right here with which to complete a few doctoral theses on human behaviour and psychology.

So you're saying they prefer Boeing, then...
What the...?
 
olle
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:32 pm

Gents;

I am managing projects and R&D for the ID solutions. From my experience the following quit often happens when you working with high tech and special technologies that you need to learn on the way:

1. You present a business case and the sales people tell you: I need this not tomorrow: I needed it yesterday.
2. You present a plan that you believe in but do not have any space for suprises.
3. Suprises happens.
4. Customers asks: Where is it?
5. The company desires that instead of telling a new dat that you are not convinced about, let us tell something when we can tell an honest date.

Only my experience...
 
threepoint
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
So you're saying they prefer Boeing, then...

I'm saying they clearly prefer....oh no you don't!
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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ER757
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 26):
Sitting back and watching the banter regarding the various production difficulties during recent new aircraft construction serves as a very telling case study on personalities and circumstances. There are many of us, airplane enthusiasts but neutral when it comes to prefering one manufacturer over another, that are watching the incessant jockeying for some perceived superiority as each airplane maker takes turns sharing fortunes and woes.
If the ability to accurately determine personalities through anonymous web forums is possible, some graduate students would have buckets of material right here with which to complete a few doctoral theses on human behaviour and psychology.

I've often thought this same thing. Funny to watch the wording some folks use in their posts. There's obviously some people who enter these threads merely to stir the pot and start a flame-fest, while others want to try and keep things on a more even keel and have an intelligent discussion. Unfortunatley, things aften de-generate into the A vs B thing that many of us are quite frankly tired of.
OK - I'm off my soapbox now, back to the topic. I can't believe this can be viewed as good news, but I don't think it's the end of the world either. I share some of ShortyBrown's concerns as expressed in reply 17, but I will reserve judgement for now and see how soon things get back to "normal" or not.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:09 pm

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 31):

Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in...
What the...?
 
douwd20
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:16 pm

From today's WSJ

John Plueger, president and chief operating officer of American International Group Inc.'s International Lease Finance Corp., says the aircraft-leasing giant will "trust but verify" Boeing's promises. "I don't think Boeing is anywhere close to being in the same situation that Airbus was on the A380, but this delay does cause you to ratchet up a notch your healthy skepticism."


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119361635997674367.html?mod=crnews
 
iwok
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
I can't figure out if they are suspending the shipments unilaterally or if it's at the request of Boeing. Not even sure this is anything surprising or unknown (I haven't read every single 787 thread out there).

I don't really think this is new... Boeing already told us that suppliers will stop shippments in order to allow for more stuffing to be completed on the vendor side, as per the original plan.

Having said that, its very important for the FF and certification to happen on the new schedule; otherwise I see a big erosion in confidence.

Its too bad the flightblogger website is still closed; it was very useful to see what's going on.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
Who would ever believe what a Boeing supplier has to say about delays in a Boeing production schedule, how would they know ?

Expecially since this news was already announced by Boeing several months ago, and this happens to be the 787 not the 748  Wink

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
doesn't have the capacity to store hundreds of fuselage barrels

 rotfl  you are so cute when you think you see hard times ahead at Boeing.

iwok
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):
Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in...

That's okay. I feel the need to sit on the sidelines for a bit and rest, so you can have my spot.  Smile
 
swallow
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:29 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):
It would be interesting to know what RR are doing with T1000 production

I hope lightening does not strike twice. They have just re-started T900 production and it would be sad if they had to suspend T1000 production.
The grass is greener where you water it
 
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ER757
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:43 pm

Quoting Douwd20 (Reply 34):
John Plueger, president and chief operating officer of American International Group Inc.'s International Lease Finance Corp., says the aircraft-leasing giant will "trust but verify" Boeing's promises. "I don't think Boeing is anywhere close to being in the same situation that Airbus was on the A380, but this delay does cause you to ratchet up a notch your healthy skepticism."

Ahhh - the voice of reason. Looks like some sound advice that we should follow. Any chance of that?
 
douwd20
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:10 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 38):
Ahhh - the voice of reason. Looks like some sound advice that we should follow. Any chance of that?

On aa.net ..............ZERO.
 
n710ps
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RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:20 pm

I can confirm on this end the suspension of shipments after the current batch that is in manufacture is complete. This suspension is going to hold untill furthur notice. The storewhouse will be cleared and what has been planned for shipping will be shipped and than you will see no more shipments untill furthur notice. I can tell this with confidence as the company my dad is president of the freight forwarder in the USA on the 787 project.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
EI321
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 40):
I can confirm on this end the suspension of shipments after the current batch that is in manufacture is complete. This suspension is going to hold untill furthur notice.

Its is being dont on the basis of lack of storage space?
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1574
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 40):
I can confirm on this end the suspension of shipments after the current batch that is in manufacture is complete. This suspension is going to hold untill furthur notice. The storewhouse will be cleared and what has been planned for shipping will be shipped and than you will see no more shipments untill furthur notice. I can tell this with confidence as the company my dad is president of the freight forwarder in the USA on the 787 project.

Well, hopefully after this post he won't be the former "president of the freight forwarder." Careful with references son.  no 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
redflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 32):
I can't believe this can be viewed as good news, but I don't think it's the end of the world either.

It's definitely not good news and certainly not the way it was first reported on Bloomberg last night (my time). And you're right that it's not the end of the world. My only question is: Is anyone really surprised by this? I almost didn't post the article because I thought for sure it would have been discussed on the earnings call last week. Obviously, if the floor space at Boeing is still occupied by the first two 787s and have been for the past couple of months then there's not going to be much room for receiving anything else. So the suppliers are going to have to stop shipping parts. And they are just now stopping shipments???
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 40):
I can tell this with confidence as the company my dad is president of the freight forwarder in the USA on the 787 project.

Be very careful with what you say. People from Boeing read these threads all the time, and if your dad has an NDA with Boeing, it could potentially be bad.

iwok
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 pm

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 11):
But as you say, we don't know the details of the Boeing-Alenia agreement.

Boeing and Alenia may (have) enter(ed) a row on who is going to get paid exactly when. Deliveries have been delayed by 6 months while the production plan is left more or less unchanged. Everything produced by Alenia ties up Alenia capital. Under the current contracts, Alenia may not get paid for their shipments until after the complete aircraft has been delivered to the airline customer (say day of delivery + 14...30...60 days).

Right now, both Boeing and Alenia are claiming that there will be no financial impact. But someone will have to bear the extra cost incurred by the delayed deliveries.  scratchchin 
 
FAEDC3
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:11 am

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting Klkla (Reply 25):
They shipped their initial pieces without the wiring because they were so far behind causing Boeing to have to do out of sequence work in Washington.

and keep them together with duck tape?  Wink

Even if Alenia had shipped their fuse barrels, completely stuffed, and on time... the fasteners shortage would of created the same situation that we are discussing now... I wouldn´t blame the calamity on Alenia... they are definately not the ones to point at.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1276
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:38 pm

Feel free to flame me for what I am going to say, but I personally think that, despite the 6 month delay in delivery schedules already announced by Boeing, that December 2008 delivery date to ANA may look optimistic if things don't get sorted soon enough between Boeing and its suppliers.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 26690
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 47):
Feel free to flame me for what I am going to say, but I personally think that, despite the 6 month delay in delivery schedules already announced by Boeing, that December 2008 delivery date to ANA may look optimistic if things don't get sorted soon enough between Boeing and its suppliers.

No reason to flame you.

I just think some people are - in some cases, intentionally - reading too much into it.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: 787: Alenia Suspending Shipments

Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 2):
I'd guess the latter, if for no other reason than I doubt Alenia gets paid until they ship a component so they'd want to ship all they can.

I found an article today that says Alenia gets $6-8 million for every shipset they deliver to Boeing. That suggests they'd want to keep pushing deliveries as long as Boeing would take them.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 17):
If the first 787 was ready for paint July 1st, how on earth do they not have at least 1 more built a full 4 months later?

Because ready for paint doesn't say anything about the state of the interior, and that's where all the work is. They don't have one more fully built because they're building several in parallel.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 17):
Shouldn't a 787 be taxiing under its own power by now, or sitting there put together the correct way just to prove they can do it?

LN1 was never intended to go together as a production airplane. It's a flight test airplane, which means a whole bunch of extra wiring, instrumentation, equipment, etc. The next plane down the pipe is one of the structural test airplanes (can't remember if it's static or fatigue), then you get to the next plane that will be flow, which is expected to finish about the same time as LN1.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 17):
I would think boeing would have been able to completely build another 787 from new parts since July, and build it much quicker than the first one using all that they've learned.

But it's not Boeing that builds the 787, it's Boeing that assembles it. In order for the supply chain to work, the suppliers have to learn to build their parts. It's possible that Boeing could have built one from raw parts since July, but they don't have any of the tooling to do such a thing and it wouldn't tell them much useful about how the real production line would work anyway.

Tom.

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