Jet Airways To Start BOM-PVG-SFO In Feb. 2008

LAXDESI · Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:27 am

This is from the airlinersindia blog.
http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/...c.php?t=2563&mforum=airlinersindia

Quotes:
NDTV Profit has just said that Naresh Goyal has said that Jet Airways is to start Shanghai, San Francisco flights both from Mumbai.

"We are designated by the (Indian) government to fly to Shanghai from Mumbai as India has very liberal bilateral civil aviation agreement with China. It would be operated from February next year," said Goyal.

copaair737 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:45 am

Will be nice to finally see an Indian carrier at SFO, which needs at least one.

If AI starts up flights to BLR, that'd be a boon too.

cricket · Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Quotes:
NDTV Profit has just said that Naresh Goyal has said that Jet Airways is to start Shanghai, San Francisco flights both from Mumbai.

"We are designated by the (Indian) government to fly to Shanghai from Mumbai as India has very liberal bilateral civil aviation agreement with China. It would be operated from February next year," said Goyal.

Better late than never, but I wonder how much lift 9W will actually offer India-China, since it is likely as with Brussels most passengers fly through to the US

ANother · Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
"We are designated by the (Indian) government to fly to Shanghai from Mumbai as India has very liberal bilateral civil aviation agreement with China. It would be operated from February next year," said Goyal.

Does this include 5ths PVG-SFO-PVG from both the Chinese and Americans?

cricket · Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
Does this include 5ths PVG-SFO-PVG from both the Chinese and Americans?

Yes...

Nimish · Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:01 am

I wish they would quickly upload the schedules on the GDS system - my next SFO trip is likely in the first week of Feb and I might consider trying 9W on this sector!

juventus · Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:13 pm

The Indian population in the Bay area is definetly growing. Can't see the flight not being succesfull. Good for SFO. Will Jet Airways consider LAX as well????

Flying Belgian · Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
Does this include 5ths PVG-SFO-PVG from both the Chinese and Americans?

IIRC, 9W always stated that they would start up the route if that 5th freedom right is granted. It should be tha case.

Feb 2008 is well within the time frame that 9W was hoping for. I guess they'll need at least two 777s to be allocated on that route. So I'm not too sure BRU will get a new 777 route by feb 2008.

In terms of mileage for the BOM-SFO traffic, a routing through PVG is about 500nm shorter than a stop in BRU.

FB.

behramjee · Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
The Indian population in the Bay area is definetly growing. Can't see the flight not being succesfull. Good for SFO. Will Jet Airways consider LAX as well????

LAX is confirmed for 2008...routing is BLR-BRU-LAX daily with a B 773ER according to 9W YYZ office. Originally they wanted to fly the A 332 to LAX but now they feel the need to put F class on this route hence the B 773ER is needed.

Also confirmed for April 2008 is daily A 332 to ORD from AMD via BRU.

MaverickM11 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 7):
In terms of mileage for the BOM-SFO traffic, a routing through PVG is about 500nm shorter than a stop in BRU.

But it doesn't make sense when they're trying to build up a BRU "hub". Speaking of which, how deep is the relationship between Brussels Airlines and Jet Airways? You can't even book BRU/India on Brussels Airlines' webpage.

mk777 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
Also confirmed for April 2008 is daily A 332 to ORD from AMD via BRU.

logically, the next route should be CCU-BRU-IAD, lets see what 9W announces!!

jacobin777 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
The Indian population in the Bay area is definetly growing. Can't see the flight not being succesfull. Good for SFO. Will Jet Airways consider LAX as well????

....yet another loss for SJC... Sad

Silicon Valley has the larger Indian population and SJC would have been more convenient for those who live in San Jose, Fremont, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, etc.....not to mention all of the technology companies..

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
Also confirmed for April 2008 is daily A 332 to ORD from AMD via BRU.

...thanks Behramjee...I'm thrilled to see them there soon... Smile

LAXDESI · Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
LAX is confirmed for 2008...routing is BLR-BRU-LAX daily with a B 773ER according to 9W YYZ office.

Also confirmed for April 2008 is daily A 332 to ORD from AMD via BRU.

In light of the above, Jet should reconsider its decision to fly BOM-PVG-SFO as they had planned to make PVG a mini hub for flights to SFO and LAX.

Since LAX will be via BRU, why bother with SFO via PVG; instead offer a terminator BOM-PVG flight, and offer India-SFO via BRU.

LAXDESI · Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
LAX is confirmed for 2008...routing is BLR-BRU-LAX daily with a B 773ER according to 9W YYZ office. Originally they wanted to fly the A 332 to LAX but now they feel the need to put F class on this route hence the B 773ER is needed.

Also confirmed for April 2008 is daily A 332 to ORD from AMD via BRU.

Here's a likely list of cities served via BRU:
NA Cities:
JFK, EWR, YYZ, ORD, LAX, IAD, SFO(?)

Indian Cities:
BOM, DEL, MAA, AMD, BLR, CCU, HYD

This will give 49 city-pair one-stop flights via BRU. I would expect this to be completed by end of 2009.

Any other city(NA or Indian) that you think will make economic sense?

mk777 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 13):
Any other city(NA or Indian) that you think will make economic sense?

As for NA cities, here are a few more i can think of - IAH, DFW, BOS, DEN (maybe), YVR, SEA (maybe), MIA/MCO (maybe).

Indian cities- I can't think of any other airport other than the ones you mentioned, maybe ATQ, PNQ, JAI, LKO but i think this might take a while. I am not sure if these airports can handle 773ER's or the A332 (infrastructurally) besides ATQ.

I guess once these cities get modern airports, it could be a posibility. Or else, 9W can expand into NA with the same 6 destinations and offer double dailies to BRU.

dutchjet · Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 7):
IIRC, 9W always stated that they would start up the route if that 5th freedom right is granted. It should be tha case.

Interesting that fifth freedom rights are available on routes between China and the US, while US carriers are strongly competing for limited frequencies between the US and China. I assume that China must agree to the flights, have they?

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
LAX is confirmed for 2008...routing is BLR-BRU-LAX daily with a B 773ER according to 9W YYZ office. Originally they wanted to fly the A 332 to LAX but now they feel the need to put F class on this route hence the B 773ER is needed.

Also confirmed for April 2008 is daily A 332 to ORD from AMD via BRU

Thanks for the details, so it seems that LAX will be served via BRU but SFO will be served via the Pacific (PVG). There has been much discussion concerning how Jet will connect the US West Coast cities and India.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
But it doesn't make sense when they're trying to build up a BRU "hub". Speaking of which, how deep is the relationship between Brussels Airlines and Jet Airways? You can't even book BRU/India on Brussels Airlines' webpage.

As mentioned in other threads concerning Jet's BRU hub......thus far, Jet has been far more focused on moving passengers between the US and India via BRU than the BRU-USA and BRU-India markets; Jets airplanes arrive from India or the US filled, and go out to India or the US filled....with limited pax headed to or departing from BRU. As destinations and flights are added to the schedule, I assume that Jet will begin boarding more pax at BRU and maybe then we will see some type of alliance with Brussels Airlines.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 13):
Here's a likely list of cities served via BRU:
NA Cities:
JFK, EWR, YYZ, ORD, LAX, IAD, SFO(?)

Indian Cities:
BOM, DEL, MAA, AMD, BLR, CCU, HYD

There were some rather serious rumors about IAH being added.....maybe SFO can be dropped from the BRU list (SFO will be served via PVG) and replaced with IAH?

jacobin777 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:16 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Interesting that fifth freedom rights are available on routes between China and the US, while US carriers are strongly competing for limited frequencies between the US and China. I assume that China must agree to the flights, have they?

Pakistan/PK has 5th freedom rights out of China also....not that it makes a difference.. spin

legacyins · Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 12):
Since LAX will be via BRU, why bother with SFO via PVG; instead offer a terminator BOM-PVG flight, and offer India-SFO via BRU.

PVG would probably be higher yeilding for 9W. The only competition they will have is with UA. It appears 9W will offer a far superior product than UA on this route. Also, they will probably pick up extra cargo destined for the U.S.

LAXDESI · Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting Legacyins (Reply 17):
PVG would probably be higher yeilding for 9W. The only competition they will have is with UA. It appears 9W will offer a far superior product than UA on this route. Also, they will probably pick up extra cargo destined for the U.S.

Good points.

Perhaps, Jet will offer SFO via BRU in couple of years, if not sooner.

airplanetire · Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:37 pm

Doesn't a person have to get a transit visa to connect through China? If that's the case, many people would probably prefer going via Europe to save the money and the hassle of having to get one.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
LAX is confirmed for 2008...routing is BLR-BRU-LAX daily with a B 773ER according to 9W YYZ office

Good to know. Ill be excited to see 9W come to my back yard!!! By the way is 9W going to partner with any of the American Carriers for FF milage?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
....yet another loss for SJC...

Yeah dude, SJC is overlooked once again. We could go over the reasons again, but thats another night and another slice of Pizza. Wink

fly2yyz · Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Airplanetire (Reply 19):
Doesn't a person have to get a transit visa to connect through China? If that's the case, many people would probably prefer going via Europe to save the money and the hassle of having to get one.

I thought PVG had a holding area for international passengers so they didn't have to obtain transit visas?

jacobin777 · Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 20):
Yeah dude, SJC is overlooked once again. We could go over the reasons again, but thats another night and another slice of Pizza.

....I agree... Wink

....are you back in LA yet?

GA330 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Airplanetire (Reply 19):
Doesn't a person have to get a transit visa to connect through China? If that's the case, many people would probably prefer going via Europe to save the money and the hassle of having to get one.

As far as I know, pax transferring through PVG does not need to have a transit visa. Furthermore, I think passengers are allowed to go out of the airport during transfer. Certain nationalities are even allowed to stay in transit for 48 hours, including US citizens.

28thguy · Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:22 am

This seems like something that will be much to the annoyance of the American carriers that are fighting for US-China frequencies. I wouldn't be surprised if U.S. Congress alters the treaty to preclude US-India open skies treaty from applying to U.S.-China fifth freedom rights. The U.S. airlines have a lot of lobbying power in Congress.

flamedude707 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:11 am

Why SFO over SJC? The number of Chineese and Indians in the Silicon Valley surrounding SJC is huge, and rapidly growing. I can't see how that would be worse than SFO.

15a · Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:40 am

The India-China MOU allows for 42 weekly frequencies by Indian Carriers to China of which 14 are permitted fifth freedom rights beyond or enroute to China. AI is already utilising some of these by flying India-Bkk-Pvg. 9W is therefore allowed to fly 7 frequencies on Pvg-Sfo and pick up traffic.
However, this bilateral rules out a scissor hub (ie Bom-Pvg-SFO and Blr-Pvg-Lax etc) - so at best 9W can fly termintor flights to Pvg from Del or Blr (which will have enough demand for 3x-4x weekly) and time them to link up with the Bom-Pvg-SFO flights.
Also, the India-USA Air Transport Agreement allows such fifth freedom rights to airlines of both sides with no limitations- indeed both were/are being utilised (AI on LHR-JFK, CDG-EWR, FRA-ORD, NW on AMS/BOM, DL earlier on CDG-MAA). The open skies agreement between the USA and India is an extremely liberal accord and entered into force in 2005..therefore dont think politicians from either side can meddle.

MAH4546 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 24):
I wouldn't be surprised if U.S. Congress alters the treaty to preclude US-India open skies treaty from applying to U.S.-China fifth freedom rights.

Then it wouldn't be Open Skies.

In the same way that airlines like Air India and Kuwait Airlines have been allowed to fly between the United States and Heathrow for decades while airlines like Delta and US Airways were locked out, the U.S. will do absolutely nothing about Jet Airways being granted rights San Francisco-Shanghai rights by the Chinese government.

copaair737 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:49 am

I, in a way, wish they'd fly via BRU, as it would be another option to fly to Europe from SF, but I suppose it makes more business sense to tap into the HUGE SFO-Shanghai market.

Can't wait to see them there. They are hiring at SFO right now too.

cricket · Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 24):
This seems like something that will be much to the annoyance of the American carriers that are fighting for US-China frequencies. I wouldn't be surprised if U.S. Congress alters the treaty to preclude US-India open skies treaty from applying to U.S.-China fifth freedom rights. The U.S. airlines have a lot of lobbying power in Congress.

Very honestly, I doubt more than 20% of 9W's total load on the sector would actually go PVG-SFO. India-West Coast demand is huge!

karan69 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 13):
Here's a likely list of cities served via BRU:
NA Cities:
JFK, EWR, YYZ, ORD, LAX, IAD, SFO(?)

Indian Cities:
BOM, DEL, MAA, AMD, BLR, CCU, HYD

That seems to be the plan as of now,

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 14):
Or else, 9W can expand into NA with the same 6 destinations and offer double dailies to BRU.

If there is any credibility to the rumours i have heard, except certain flights to be operated by VLAs , infact expect an order for A380s and 748F/77LRF early next year.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
maybe SFO can be dropped from the BRU list (SFO will be served via PVG) and replaced with IAH?

Yup that seems more likely.

Quoting 15A (Reply 26):
so at best 9W can fly termintor flights to Pvg from Del or Blr (which will have enough demand for 3x-4x weekly) and time them to link up with the Bom-Pvg-SFO flights.

They should chalk out these plans quickly given how slots and the fact that AI/IC might also apply for the remaining PVG frequencies to block 9Ws entrance just like they tried to do in 2005 with BKK and KUL and have now successfully although unfortunately for pax done with HKG.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 29):
Very honestly, I doubt more than 20% of 9W's total load on the sector would actually go PVG-SFO. I

, absolutely correct i doubt hardly any people will get off at PVG., not to mention that the PVG-SFO route is 500nm shorter than via BRU cutting atleast 45 mins in flying time.

Karan

cricket · Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 30):
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 13):
Here's a likely list of cities served via BRU:
NA Cities:
JFK, EWR, YYZ, ORD, LAX, IAD, SFO(?)

Indian Cities:
BOM, DEL, MAA, AMD, BLR, CCU, HYD

That seems to be the plan as of now,

Not SFO - Vancouver is what NG has stated earlier. SFO is going to continue to be served via PVG!

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 30):
They should chalk out these plans quickly given how slots and the fact that AI/IC might also apply for the remaining PVG frequencies to block 9Ws entrance just like they tried to do in 2005 with BKK and KUL and have now successfully although unfortunately for pax done with HKG.

I think 9W might start a DEL-PEK service because I heard some talk of that sometime ago!

karan69 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 31):
SFO is going to continue to be served via PVG!

Ofcourse overlooked it a bit in the long message i typed.

Karan

LAXdude1023 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
....are you back in LA yet?

I wish, I leave Chicago on Wednesday. Ill be back in Los Angeles on the 4th.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 30):
bsolutely correct i doubt hardly any people will get off at PVG., not to mention that the PVG-SFO route is 500nm shorter than via BRU cutting atleast 45 mins in flying time.

The talk is that when they open LAX, it will be through BRU. Would it make more sense to route LAX through China? Not to mention that AI already serves LAX-India through Europe. 9W could offer something different by routing LAX traffic through Asia. I would think that sending LAX traffic through Asia might be the smartest move.

jfk777 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:59 pm

Great for JET to offer service to the USA over both Oceans. While BRU sounds neat, the next step should be NONSTOP to the USA. Mumbai to Newrak with a 773ER would be great.

karan69 · Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:03 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):
9W could offer something different by routing LAX traffic through Asia. I would think that sending LAX traffic through Asia might be the smartest move.

It might "be the smartest move" but there is a question of Flying Rights, between countries and allotment of frequencies to go with those ASAs,

Karan

LAXDESI · Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:25 am

News on Jet's slots at PVG.
http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=14552865

Quotes:
Jet Airways hopes to soon sort out the slots issue that is preventing it from launching flights to China and onwards to the US.

“The Chinese side has given us a 2 a.m. slot. This does not suit us and we will be looking to exchange this at a global slot exchange meeting scheduled to be held soon. This is normal in the industry and we do not foresee any problem in launching the India-Shanghai-San Francisco flight early next year,” the official said.

Jet Airways To Start BOM-PVG-SFO In Feb. 2008

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