andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 47):
Even if I were to cut their A380 fleet outlook by 50%, they will still be the world's largest A380 operator.

And the problem with that is - ?

Nothing, but that is half of what they want to be.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 49):
I do think EK will be a major player ... but I do think that EK's grand visions could be wishful thinking

Agreed.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
I did - and I also lost a lot on CMGI. I knew it was a bubble but I didn't get out fast enough. I can't blame CMGI for my mistake.

..its a shame you didn't purchase "put" options to protect your positions... Sad

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 49):
= Agree. However, SQ's growth was organic.

..so is EK's, besides purchasing part of Sri Lankan Airlines they aren't going out and purchasing a bunch of carriers..they too have grown organically since the mid 1980's...

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 49):
its service has gone down hill. Cosmetic touches and great IFEs only hide overall poor FAs, meals, etc. .

.....while service has gone down a little (I'll agree to that), I can't say its "overall poor"....I've been flying with EK for almost a decade and I still have no problems with 90% of my flights I take with EK.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 49):
and my biggest grip, a LACK OF CONSISTENCY. On a good day, I get MH/9W/NH. On a bad day, I get a RJ/KU/SV. While SQ has fallen, it is remarkably consistent in providing an far above average flight ... not the best, but far above average.

..I can see what your saying..lack of consistency is something which EK needs to address..but I don't think they are as bad as you are making them out to be........
"Up the Irons!"
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 49):
Personally I found your post to be condescending with the inherently good western capitalism juxtaposed over the evils of another system;

I never said it was "good" - I make no value judgement on it, simply that is the form they are using, and, since the issue seems to be about profit, now or potential, I am not sure why it would be dismissed as condescending.

However, as an old leftie, I do not think that socialism is inherently "bad". So I have no idea what is "neo-colonial" about the post.

 confused 

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 52):
I never said it was "good" - I make no value judgement on it, simply that is the form they are using, and, since the issue seems to be about profit, now or potential, I am not sure why it would be dismissed as condescending.

However, as an old leftie, I do not think that socialism is inherently "bad". So I have no idea what is "neo-colonial" about the post.


mariner

= Let us continue this dialogue over PMs as I would be a hypocrite to continue the same over on aviation forum. I can point out your hidden neo-con  Wink. And I dont think socialism and leftie have anything to do with coloniation. France was a pretty big colonizer  Smile.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 51):
..so is EK's, besides purchasing part of Sri Lankan Airlines they aren't going out and purchasing a bunch of carriers..they too have grown organically since the mid 1980's...

= Agreed initially in the 1980s. Dont think so now.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 53):
Let us continue this dialogue over PMs as I would be a hypocrite to continue the same over on aviation forum.

Let us not. I don't have a deal of interest in the debate. The moment anyone imputes value judgements to facts, I shrug.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18849
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:32 am

Why has this discussion gotten so far off course?

EK has placed a bit on the A380. As an aviation fan, I'm very curious to see how it goes. Until I see there is no longer a "J class" shortage from the west coast US to India... there is room for growth.

Quoting Swallow (Reply 33):
Make that 3 772A leaving the fleet in 2011, 29 332s & 8 343s in 2013 and 12 773A in 2014 for a total of 52 planes that need replacement.

I missed something here! ARe the 332's leased? All 29 go in one year? (I had to re-look at wikipedia to verify that quantity). And I thought the 6 772ER's would leave in 2013 too. When are they planned to go?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 46):
I am constantly amazed by the negativity that exists on this board to both Dubai and Emirates. A tiny country in a volatile but critical part of the world is using the forms of modern western capitalism to reinvent itself.

Me too. They're doing well building off of not much. But they might be overbuilding a bit... I'm not talking aviation, but rather housing.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 47):
The housing bubble created plenty of profit for many companies,

Now that's something we can agree on. The housing bubble... is getting interesting.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1320
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 47):
The housing bubble created plenty of profit for many companies, which are now beginning to suffer. Amount of profit does not necessarily mean a bubble does not exist

Not true, bubbles exist when certain part of a economy faces a economic turnout increase due to several factors which are limited due to time. Dubai does not have this problem, the middle class in dubai is extremely well to do compared to the US. Bubbles happen when common people start running away with the economics such as what happened in the US, every man and his dog was out buying a house for a quick buck but using a mortgage rather than cash. The same thing happened up here in western Canada but the bubble continues to exist because people were given loans based on their liabilities and balances not trust. Dubai is very much same in this respect, anyone doing business in dubai has a tax free incentive on pretty much everything available to him/her. This leads to higher savings account for the middle class, and less outstanding balances, one of the reasons why you will see people that the bubble will continue to exist for a long time to come.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 53):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 51):
..so is EK's, besides purchasing part of Sri Lankan Airlines they aren't going out and purchasing a bunch of carriers..they too have grown organically since the mid 1980's...

= Agreed initially in the 1980s. Dont think so now.

..then how have they been growing?

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 55):

Now that's something we can agree on. The housing bubble... is getting interesting.

.. checkmark ...interesting indeed!
"Up the Irons!"
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 55):
EK has placed a bit on the A380. As an aviation fan, I'm very curious to see how it goes.

I'm fascinated. They only started twenty or so years ago, I think, and the growth is spectacular. I first flew them in 1990 - trying out "new" airlines - and several times since then, but I could not imagine they would ever become what they have - or fly trans-Tasman.

But - I flew with them last January from New Zealand to Australia and back.

I don't want to sound like an apologist for them - the aircraft orders are remarkable, and I'm interested to see where they are deployed.

So far they have made very few mistakes. They may not actually become the No. 1 airline in the world, but they get full marks from me for that ambition.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 55):
But they might be overbuilding a bit... I'm not talking aviation, but rather housing.

Same rules apply. They seem to be able to balance supply with need. I was a slight sceptic when they announced the Palm Islands - but not anymore.

No one ever got anywhere by thinking little, and, for me, what is happening at Dubai is extremely impressive and a cause for optimism, in a somewhat troubled world.

I found the first SQ flight of the A380 to be impressive for similar reasons. Granted it is a European aircraft but that first flight did not involve Europe or the US.

It was an Asia-Pacific event, and I can't think of anything else like it in civil aviation.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 54):
Let us not. I don't have a deal of interest in the debate. The moment anyone imputes value judgements to facts, I shrug.

mariner

= As you wish. It would probably be unproductive anyways as I shrug when anyone passes of value judgements as facts.

One thing I am sure we can both agree on. Lets wish EK and fair competition well. This can only ensure consumers across the board win.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 59):
It would probably be unproductive anyways

That's for sure. When someone gets personal and calls me a neo-colonialist in one post and a neo-con(servative) in another, I can't a constructive discussion.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 57):
..then how have they been growing?

= I tend to agree with those who consider EK as a bubble waiting to burst. Initially, it was organic growth (1980s, 1990s) ... now, I would tend to equate their growth as a bubble.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 56):
Not true, bubbles exist when certain part of a economy faces a economic turnout increase due to several factors which are limited due to time. Dubai does not have this problem, the middle class in dubai is extremely well to do compared to the US. Bubbles happen when common people start running away with the economics such as what happened in the US, every man and his dog was out buying a house for a quick buck but using a mortgage rather than cash. The same thing happened up here in western Canada but the bubble continues to exist because people were given loans based on their liabilities and balances not trust. Dubai is very much same in this respect, anyone doing business in dubai has a tax free incentive on pretty much everything available to him/her. This leads to higher savings account for the middle class, and less outstanding balances, one of the reasons why you will see people that the bubble will continue to exist for a long time to come.

= Very valid points. As I mention elsewhere, I tend to view the "bubble" in UAE to last longer than EK. The downside risks to EK are far greater than that to Dubai as a whole. Either way, we will see how it all shapes out when the 50+ 380s start arriving. I look forward to understanding where they would be deployed.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 58):
So far they have made very few mistakes. They may not actually become the No. 1 airline in the world, but they get full marks from me for that ambition.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 58):
No one ever got anywhere by thinking little, and, for me, what is happening at Dubai is extremely impressive and a cause for optimism, in a somewhat troubled world.

= As an old Apple ad says, those who questioned the world are the ones who changed it. However, questioning and big risks have to stem from a vision of the world. And perhaps EK does it have it right. I just do not agree with its outlook of the aviation world ... there are fantastic examples of spectacular failures with airlines having lots of ambitions and not much due dilligence. There are lesser examples of spectacular ambition actually translating into profitable stable airlines in the world.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 61):
However, questioning and big risks have to stem from a vision of the world.

I work in show biz. We walk a constant tightrope between success and failure. Almost always, both have wonderful visionaries at the helm.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 55):
But they might be overbuilding a bit... I'm not talking aviation, but rather housing.

EK is meant to fly those who have purchased homes in Dubai, also. Hence, if too much was built, it is a little less passengers for the area.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 56):
Bubbles happen when common people start running away with the economics such as what happened in the US,

That is what some would like to believe, that it was common people that got into a little trouble.

This was not all true.

Example.

1. My father is building a mansion (7000 sq.ft.) on speculation. Competing with about 15 others in the same street. Sale price will be about $2.5 million.
2. In-laws have lost about $300K in equity since they purchased their slice of heaven (it really is)
3. Sister purchased a fixer-upper in LA for $700K. They can afford it.

Here are my examples of well educated family members, with money, that made terrible financial decisions. Bubbles don't differentiate between rich and poor. Those who believe 'it is different this time' are bound to make the same mistakes made in previous bubbles.

To reiterate, I don't doubt that UAE and Dubai can reach the same levels as Singapore and Hong Kong, just not 2X as much.
 
swallow
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:23 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 55):
I missed something here! ARe the 332's leased? All 29 go in one year? (I had to re-look at wikipedia to verify that quantity). And I thought the 6 772ER's would leave in 2013 too. When are they planned to go?

I guess it will be a phased retirement of planes from 2013, as the new birds enter the fleet. No idea if the 332s are leased or owned.
The grass is greener where you water it
 
qantas787
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:59 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
30-40 years ago, who would have thought Singapore would become a "world-class gateway", yet through foresight, hard work, dedication and commitment, its become a world class economic hub/gateway....

Singapore Airlines growth rate has slowed enormously as will EK's.
G'day
 
Fly2CHC
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:23 am

They should buy a large stake in Air New Zealand - would complement their network and growth strategy superbly.
 
philzh
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 10:22 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 66):
They should buy a large stake in Air New Zealand - would complement their network and growth strategy superbly.

There's been talk here on A.net about EK building a secondary hub in AKL, even before Dubai tried to buy parts of the airport. I too think that NZ would complement EK extremely well, and enable them to become truly global.

However, I'm not sure you Kiwis would be overly happy seeing EK buying into ANZ.
 
Fly2CHC
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting Philzh (Reply 67):
However, I'm not sure you Kiwis would be overly happy seeing EK buying into ANZ

Let the best scenario for aviation prevail  Smile

Imagine if, as a result of the partnership, Air NZ were directed to firm up some key North & South American destinations. GRU, EZE, IAH, etc to complement SFO and LAX - all of a sudden EK really does have a worldwide network. They would be able to channel passengers between Asia/Australia and South America.
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: Emirates Wants To Be NO. 1 In The World

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 45):
I call it here officially IMHO that EK will be a large airline, but not as large as they plan to get. Dubai is a bubble waiting to burst.

There are so many variables that could lead to a burst. I cannot imagine that the fundamentalists in the region like the idea of such a westernized city in their midst. One major terrorist act would have a major impact on the city. It doesn't take much to frighten away investors. Also, they are having major labor strife right now. The workers are choosing to leave due to the harsh work environment and the soaring inflation that the city is facing. The cost of housing has become staggering.

Las Vegas is the perfect example of a bubble. Everyone has always believed that Las Vegas is recession proof due to the gaming industry. Well, only so many people can afford to buy a $550,000.00 home. The area is littered with empty homes in that price range.

I agree with you, that which goes up, will come down.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos