Airportguy1971
Topic Author
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:49 am

Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:35 pm

DENVER -- Frontier has staked part of its future on an airplane that one airline has now deemed "unsafe." Over the weekend scandinavian ailines announced it has removed the Q-400 from its fleet because of safety concerns. FOX 31's Leland Vittert has the story and Frontier's reaction to the allegation.

Mr. Vittert filed this story on Oct 29th. A follow up to his earlier report on how unsafe the Q400 was without O2 masks... Seems like he has an axe to grind...
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17856
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:42 pm

Talk about bad timing....
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:43 pm

Seems like an axe to grind is right...I'd get on a DH8-400 right now no problems...
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:45 pm

I wonder if he'll be a good little reporter and eat his words if BBD is found blameless in this last accident....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH......whew...yah, right...
What the...?
 
Super80DFW
Posts: 862
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:03 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:48 pm

Has Lynx even started yet?
EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting AirportGuy1971 (Thread starter):
Mr. Vittert filed this story on Oct 29th. A follow up to his earlier report on how unsafe the Q400 was without O2 masks... Seems like he has an axe to grind...

Much like SAS has lost faith in their Q400s, I've lost faith in the media's ability to fairly and objectively report the facts and tell the true story of anything...

November "Sweeps" start 01NOV and run through 28NOV; think that may have anything to do with the tone of this latest story treatment?  scratchchin 
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
I'd get on a DH8-400 right now no problems...

As would I, but I can't argue with the premise of the report that much. SAS is a respected airline whose maintenance practices are not considered questionable. It's not at all unfair to question Frontier as to why they have decided to continue to operate the planes. Horizon's situation is different because they have been operating the Q400 successfully for a while now - Frontier is just starting out.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):

Right...so instead of looking at an airline which has been successfully operating the same type of aircraft, under the same conditions, right at home, they focus on a story from across the ocean which may end up bearing little on their equipment or operations. SAS is a story...just not the whole story.

Or...maybe they're looking for some juicy ratings 'cause planes are scary and scary makes for good headlines.

On the other hand, I shouldn't be so harsh. I haven't seen the story and it may be entirely even handed. Let us know how it turns out.
What the...?
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 7):
Right...so instead of looking at an airline which has been successfully operating the same type of aircraft, under the same conditions, right at home, they focus on a story from across the ocean which may end up bearing little on their equipment or operations. SAS is a story...just not the whole story.

Horizon was mentioned, though not by name, in the report, along with the fact that they have had no problems with the plane.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
rikkus67
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Horizon was mentioned, though not by name, in the report, along with the fact that they have had no problems with the plane.

-Mir

While I am not letting Bombardier or Goodrich off the hook until a complete investigation is done, the fact that a journalist is using scare tactics to get his point across shows that he is more interested in ratings, than investigating the entire truth.

It is interesting that the reporter chose only to highlight the SAS story, and NOT mention the U.S. carriers name. This unfortunately shows what is prevalent in U.S. (and now more often worldwide) journalism...SENSATIONALISM. Although Horizon has had previous reliability problems, it is interesting to note that while operating in similar conditions to SAS ( and similar sized fleets), they have not had the problems with landing gear that SAS has had.

I have to question why the journalist would NOT mention Horizons name, if he bothered to mention that the "other" airline hasn't experienced the same problems?

All this aside, I hope BBD and Goodrich can get this continued problem with the older Q400's finally rectified. It makes me want to go to BBD's head office and roll some heads!
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
User avatar
rikkus67
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:33 pm

Reading the other current Q400 posts, it appears the preliminary investigation is showing the latest collapse is an MX issue to do with an O-ring.

This is getting more interesting.... and I sure hope that BBD can get to the bottom of these issues, and rectify the problems.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2129
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:39 pm

I was wondering when this "reporter" was going to do a follow up on this.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
bennett123
Posts: 9197
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:54 pm

And the source of this report is Fox News...
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 12):
And the source of this report is Fox News...

Are you going to add anything valuable to the discussion? Sure that is the source, but have you been paying attention to Q400 news recently? Combined problems with the plane itself (BBD issue) to maintenance (SAS issue) have hurt the planes reputation. As long as F9 MX is better than SAS', the only problems would be those from the manufacturer, which are a cause for concern, no doubt about it.
I love ASO!
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4282
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 9):
While I am not letting Bombardier or Goodrich off the hook until a complete investigation is done, the fact that a journalist is using scare tactics to get his point across shows that he is more interested in ratings, than investigating the entire truth.

You are absolutely right about that. As a reporter, he made no report about the impeccable safety record of the Dash 8 product, nor did he even mention that the incidents involving SAS did not have any fatal results. He had a one sided story obviously, and made no attempt to relay factual information. Poor reporting, and poor report. Also not to mention QX has a perfect safety record with the Q400's, and one of the largest fleets of the Q400. One sided, and obviously an axe to grind. Did he not get a free ticket or something?

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 10):
Reading the other current Q400 posts, it appears the preliminary investigation is showing the latest collapse is an MX issue to do with an O-ring.

This is interesting information. I doubt he will follow up with that information.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
Seems like an axe to grind is right...I'd get on a DH8-400 right now no problems...

Your absolutely right about that. I would fly on LYNX anytime, any day, and anywhere. I am saddened that a reporter would try to create fear with his hometown airline. I bet the jerk would be the first to admit that he flies Frontier, and would be the first to admit he would be the first to hop on LYNX to take a ski vacation.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 13):
Combined problems with the plane itself (BBD issue) to maintenance (SAS issue) have hurt the planes reputation. As long as F9 MX is better than SAS', the only problems would be those from the manufacturer, which are a cause for concern, no doubt about it.

Perhaps the plane's reputation is hurt for the interim, but long term, I really don't see this being an issue.

What's more to be concerned about is the politicizing that happened very quickly after the most recent incident, and at which I think has done more damage than the actual incident itself. SAS has put themselves in a very awkward position.

IF indeed the issue at hand is MX related, and SAS will take 'most' of the blame for the accident, taking the Q400 out of service permenently, (which effectively tells your customers that you have no faith in the plane itself), will cause them to have egg on their face in the long run.

Imagine you have MX issues, and you've just effectively told the world that you have no faith in the plane.. when in fact, you probably should be looking at your own people instead.

HAVING said that.. there's also reports that BBD has been monitoring the MX practices.. If that is also the case, then that also changes the dynamic quite a lot....

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 9):
the fact that a journalist is using scare tactics to get his point across shows that he is more interested in ratings, than investigating the entire truth.

And I thought Fox affiliates reporting were suppose to be "fair and balanced"
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9197
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:18 pm

AirTranTUS

The point that I am making is that the source of the report is important. Presumably, you would rate the NTSB above a TV station or Wikipedia. Furthermore, FOX is hardly a highly rated source.

As a matter of fact, I have been paying attention to all of the relevant threads.

In case you are interested, there have recently been three incidents concerning SK, and well as 1 with Jejuair(?) and 1 at Munich. Of these, there are prelimary reports on both of the first 2 SK incidents. The cause was identified as corrosion in an area that was not subject to inspection, (IMO this is a design weakness, hence down to Bombardier/Goodrich). It seems that the 3rd SK incident and the Jejuair incident are due to an o ring being inside an actuator. Given that this is apparently not just an SK issue it seems that further investigation is needed.

IMO, there are 2 issues, the first is a design/documentation failing and the second is not yet fully clear.

David
 
aeronut
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:41 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 15):
Perhaps the plane's reputation is hurt for the interim, but long term, I really don't see this being an issue.

What's more to be concerned about is the politicizing that happened very quickly after the most recent incident, and at which I think has done more damage than the actual incident itself. SAS has put themselves in a very awkward position.

IF indeed the issue at hand is MX related, and SAS will take 'most' of the blame for the accident, taking the Q400 out of service permenently, (which effectively tells your customers that you have no faith in the plane itself), will cause them to have egg on their face in the long run.

Imagine you have MX issues, and you've just effectively told the world that you have no faith in the plane.. when in fact, you probably should be looking at your own people instead.

HAVING said that.. there's also reports that BBD has been monitoring the MX practices.. If that is also the case, then that also changes the dynamic quite a lot....

1011yyz

I hope that SAS had decided to retire the Q400 before the latest incident and finally announced it when the latest accident occured else they will look pretty silly if SAS is on the hook for this one. Yeah, whats happened is bad, yeah, their customers probably have lost confidence in the product, but their have been a hell of a lot of problems recently, and everytime all the PAX walked out of those planes. There is something to be said about that.
 
geotrash
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:25 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:36 am

Frontier (Lynx) isn't even operating them yet. They're still sitting on the ramp at BJC. Rumor mill says they should be flying them by the first week of December, in time for the holidays.

Dave
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:27 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 17):
the 3rd SK incident and the Jejuair incident are due to an o ring being inside an actuator. Given that this is apparently not just an SK issue it seems that further investigation is needed.

The only thing I've seen on the Jeguair incident implied that the gear collapsed as a result of the aircraft running into a drainage ditch.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9197
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:26 am

I am sure that there was a suggestion that it happened the other way round.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 20):
The only thing I've seen on the Jeguair incident implied that the gear collapsed as a result of the aircraft running into a drainage ditch.

The only thing these Dash 8 threads have confirmed is that most people here at A.net jump to conclusions very quickly, and let their emotions get the best of them, which overrides their sense of judgement, and the above thread is a minor example OF that.

I'm absolutely amazed at how most of the people where SAS is based, and how judgemental they have been, as well as how rude some Canadians have been in their response back regarding BBD. I've been terribly upset at how stereotyped I've felt in some of these threads!

It would appear that although there have been lots of issues lately, that most of the time the incidents have been investigated to be MX related issues. Interesting.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 19):
Rumor mill says they should be flying them by the first week of December, in time for the holidays.

Well, in-time for at least one holiday...if they are the first week of December...therefore missing-out on the busiest week of the year.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 17):
Furthermore, FOX is hardly a highly rated source.

Not sure where you were going with this statement. Oppose to which sources are you rating them?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:54 pm

The Q400 product will be fine.

They will investigate, offer a solution and they will be back in the air again. People will soon forget.

Does anyone remember the ATR crash due to ice and they were all moved to warmer climates. Does that come to mind when getting on an ATR? Probably not and we will forget aout the landing gear issue in time as well. The majority of consumers today will book the flight with the lowest fare. period.
 
acjazzame
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:48 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:04 pm

I too share your comments 1011yyz. Everyone here on A-net has blamed Bombardier and let the maintenance dept of SAS out of. All I here is how great SAS's maintenance is and respected they are. Has anyone been to SAS and seen how they do maintenance? So before anyone blames Bombardier or SAS , let the experts at transport Canada and the Danish authorities investigate first!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:13 pm

Quoting ACJAZZAME (Reply 25):
All I here is how great SAS's maintenance is and respected they are

While I thank you for your agreement, you have to be careful with statements like the one above -- *I* know that it's not intended to tug at the hearts of the Danes, but it is statements such as that, that rile the masses up!

You have to be careful what you say --- because it might just come back to bite you in the end -- after all, it IS a preliminary investigation. Further investigation MAY in fact implicate Bombardier.

If everyone could get past the patriotism on this site, and stick to the healthy debate, things would be much nicer and more enjoyable to most.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 24):
Does anyone remember the ATR crash due to ice and they were all moved to warmer climates.

Warmer climates? At altitude or on the ground? The at-altitude "climates" over the South Pacific are usually even colder than temperate areas like America. ATRs operate in freezing temps all the time...on the ground and in the air. Please clarify your statement.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:27 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 21):
I am sure that there was a suggestion that it happened the other way round.

Well not from any source I've seen.

Quote from the aviation-safety.net narrartive on the incident:

"The DHC-8 landed on runway 18R and went off the side of the runway. It ran into a drainage ditch which lies between both runways. The left hand main gear leg collapsed and propeller blades separated."
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 23):
Well, in-time for at least one holiday...if they are the first week of December...therefore missing-out on the busiest week of the year.

Its not a rumor, but the plan. Its buried amongst many articles. Proving runs should be starting soon, good chance they might be seen at DIA when that starts.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7280310?

Quoting DIA (Reply 27):
Warmer climates? At altitude or on the ground? The at-altitude "climates" over the South Pacific are usually even colder than temperate areas like America. ATRs operate in freezing temps all the time...on the ground and in the air. Please clarify your statement.

American Eagle did send all the ATRs south to MIA and SJU. Since they were the major (only? I was pretty young) operator of the ATR in the US at the time, it would make sense that the impression would be that they were all moved south.

Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
altairF28
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:41 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:58 am

Delta Connection (specifically EV) flew both the 42 and the 72 out of both ATL and DFW which, despite being in the South, can both get cold and icy.
A detour is a choice between two tasks, each with its own pros and cons
 
flymad
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:42 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 20):
The only thing I've seen on the Jeguair incident implied that the gear collapsed as a result of the aircraft running into a drainage ditch.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 21):
I am sure that there was a suggestion that it happened the other way round

Don' know if this has been posted before, but might help
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6844292,00.html
 
acjazzame
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:48 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 26):
You have to be careful what you say --- because it might just come back to bite you in the end -- after all, it IS a preliminary investigation. Further investigation MAY in fact implicate Bombardier.

That's what I'm saying, lets leave it to the experts at TC and the Danish authorities to sort it out, right now no one is at fault.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 29):
Since they were the major (only? I was pretty young) operator of the ATR in the US at the time, it would make sense that the impression would be that they were all moved south.

CO moved some (or most) of its ATR-42's ops out of EWR down to IAH after the AA accident.

Also, the EM2's which were used on CO Express routes out of MSY (to LIT/PNS/SHV) were moved to EWR and were replaced by ATR's.
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe Part 2

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:08 pm

CO has been quiet and staying under the radar with this Q400 issue.

CO partern Colgan is supposed to start flying the q400 out of EWR early next year.

I hope this series of issues don't affect the start of this service.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos