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imapilotaz
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 48):
Then let's try a closer distance. Phoenix to Tucson is about 108n.m.
Mesa charges $238 (according to expedia) for a one-way purchase with less than 7 days notice. Distance has much less to do with airfares than most people believe. The per-cycle cost is what drives airfares, not distance. It doesn't matter if you went across town, it still costs a large percentage of what it costs to fly across the country.

This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines. Mesa does not set any fares or do anything except be a "mass transit company" for US Airways. US Airways sets everything from schedules to fares and Mesa has no say in it. Also, there is virtually 0 "true local" traffic from PHX-TUS, as its an easy 2 hour drive. US has those flights for connections, and the fares are likely $30-$60 more expensive than Phoenix. If you do a normal square root of the miles pro-ration, then the PHX-TUS leg of a connecting itinerary is unequivically being sold WAY below cost. Should that be considered predatory? No. Its worth the loss on one route for the betterment of the entire company (US). You could say that the loss of go! in the short term while trying to prove its viability of offering a stand alone product is worth the loss to the whole Mesa Air Group. Granted that was before they got hit with $80M judgement. Now, it likely isnt worth it.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines.

HAL is a 767 First Officer for Hawaiian Airlines and I guarantee he knows alot more than you do...especially with regard to Hawai'i and our interisland market.

Regardless of which airline is charging the fare, someone brought up a comparison of routes in miles and he countered with a route of similar length with higher fares than AQ or HA EVER have charged.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:13 pm

[

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines

first of all this type of flame bait is just wrong.

You will not find ANY EC or US domestic carrier cheaper on a terminating segment length basis than AQ or HA (excepting Ryanair, EasyJet and Skybus or WN's PIT-PHL 19 dollar sometimes special) pre or post Go! . That is a fact.

[Edited 2007-10-31 16:28:43]
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georgebush
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 46):
And United contracts with Mesa for a lot of its regional flying on the mainland. If UA weren't happy with what Go is doing in Hawaii vis a vis Aloha, they'd have the muscle to make them stop. Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Who would UA get to pick up all that flying?? You know United as well as I do, they look the other way untill its THEIR problem. UAX Mesa is the most rag tag operation I have ever seen in my life. Their pilots are inexperienced, the a/c falling apart, the worst bag hits in the industry, and the worst on-time BY FAR. I am sure UA will get rid of them when possible, its just a matter of time (OO has already replaced some of their UAX flying). JO knows this too, thats why he is going into China (STUPID) and started GO!

I am just not sure how well they are doing for US and DL, but for UA they blow.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 53):
I am sure UA will get rid of them when possible, its just a matter of time

Unlikely for a while. UA just contracted Mesa for even more flying -- 22 CRJ700s on 10 year terms commencing in 2008.

In the big picture Mesa does fine for UAX.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 54):
In the big picture Mesa does fine for UAX.

Especially when UA can cancel YV's flights into and out of UA hubs to get their own metal in during irregular ops and then ping them for not hitting ontime performance for their contract escalators  Smile
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freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 48):
Mesa charges $238 (according to expedia) for a one-way purchase with less than 7 days notice.

Sure this is Mesa charging this and not Mesa flying for US Airways Express who would set the price on that route?
 
freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 53):
Their pilots are inexperienced, the a/c falling apart, the worst bag hits in the industry, and the worst on-time BY FAR.

You need to get the facts together first before posting very incorrect information like this. When you do come back and post the correct findings Mr. Bush.
 
777fan
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
Unfortunatly J.O. .will push one of them out of business.



Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 13):
To me this says that everyone who wanted to fly was flying before.

Certainly not the case. I knew of many people that wanted to fly to the other islands pre-go! but couldn't afford to do so. The lower fares that go! forced on the market worked wonders for those that want to come to HNL to shop or visit family and friends on the other islands.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 46):
United owns a nice chunk of Aloha. And United contracts with Mesa for a lot of its regional flying on the mainland. If UA weren't happy with what Go is doing in Hawaii vis a vis Aloha, they'd have the muscle to make them stop. Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Bold prediction: go! leaves the Isles, AQ dumps its 732s, UA buys a bigger stake in AQ and contracts Mesa to fly AQ's interisland routes on Mesa RJs!!!


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 58):
Certainly not the case. I knew of many people that wanted to fly to the other islands pre-go! but couldn't afford to do so. The lower fares that go! forced on the market worked wonders for those that want to come to HNL to shop or visit family and friends on the other islands.

The numbers simply do not pan this out. The market has grown between 3% and 8% on a 20% capacity increase and a 50-75% decrease in fares. This (the extra 3-8%) is hardly a segment of consumers worth fighting over. Businesses need to focus on consumers who are willing to pay enough to cover costs. Mesa does NOT have lower costs and therefore there is no rational justification for lower fares.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
80 mil is the settlement for AQ and HA.

no it's not.. and GO can't continue to use the information.. the 80 MM is the penalty for illegally using the info in the first palace.. the AQ HA lawsuit is still out there... we'll see how that turns out... Mesa may heave in order to mitigate the damage on this one and shed money losing operations..
1.4mm and counting...
 
imapilotaz
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 57):
You need to get the facts together first before posting very incorrect information like this. When you do come back and post the correct findings Mr. Bush.

Wow Freshlove, I believe that may be the first halfway positive comment ive seen from you about Mesa.
 
freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 60):
no it's not.. and GO can't continue to use the information.. the 80 MM is the penalty for illegally using the info in the first palace.. the AQ HA lawsuit is still out there... we'll see how that turns out... Mesa may heave in order to mitigate the damage on this one and shed money losing operations..

This will go on forever. Appeal after appeal and so forth like any other legal battle between companies. It's not worth wasting time on. This is HI flying people not mainland flying. Does anyone really care what happens out there on the islands, probably not. Stick it to JO and lets get on to something else worthwile.

Money losing operations....that would be GO! and Air Midwest which will be gone by this time next year so there is not much to dump. JO will take the CRJ's to China and the Beech 1900's are in the process of being sold to Gulfstream and Great Lakes.
 
T prop
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:45 am

From the Mesa pilot leadership:

"We are shocked and appalled by these developments," said Captain Michael Jayson, chairman of the Mesa Air Group unit of ALPA. "The actions of MAG's senior management have put the future of Mesa Air Group and the livelihoods of their hard-working employees in jeopardy. Although the negative publicity will soon die down, the financial impact of the Hawaiian Airlines decision -- if it is not overturned on appeal -- will likely be felt for years to come. Combine this with the skyrocketing attrition among our pilots and the on-going operational and staffing problems at Mesa Air Group, and you can begin to appreciate why the pilots are so concerned about the future of our company."


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071031/dc06107.html?.v=1

As Mesa continues to operate in Hawaii the damages go forward, how much a day is added if they ultimately lose on appeal?
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting T prop (Reply 63):
As Mesa continues to operate in Hawaii the damages go forward, how much a day is added if they ultimately lose on appeal?

The judge set an interest rate of about 4% per year. Thats $3,200,000 million more for the first year or about $8,700 more per day.
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
T prop
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 64):
The judge set an interest rate of about 4% per year. Thats $3,200,000 million more for the first year or about $8,700 more per day.

That's just interest, the 80 mil figure came from losses that HA incurred the day go started till this month I think. As go continues to operate that figure grows. Does $150,000 a day + the interest sound right?
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting T prop (Reply 65):
That's just interest, the 80 mil figure came from losses that HA incurred the day go started till this month I think. As go continues to operate that figure grows. Does $150,000 a day + the interest sound right?

I'm not sure the amount grows. One report I read said that Hawaiian was exploring how to recoup the losses it will continue to sustain while go! continues to be in the market. I suppose one risk of Mesa's appeal is that the next judge will agree with HA and increase the amount due to the months/years that have gone by in the interim.

My guess is that the Mesa BOD is telling JO that go! isn't worth it. They've already 10s of millions of dollars and have made no inroads into the market in revenue or traffic growth. I predict an attempt to settle with Aloha and go!'s pullout within 6 months. Mesa's stock price has dropped from over $10 to $4 since go!. If I was a stockholder I would be pissed.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:16 pm

Mesa must also post an 80 Million dollar bond while the appeals process takes place, this will cost a tidy sum also to purchase a bond from a financial institution.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...ies/2007/10/29/daily32.html?page=2


"Mesa will be required to post an $80 million bond until the case is resolved. "


"In his ruling, Faris ordered Mesa to pay 3.97 percent interest on the $80 million judgment per annum. Mesa must also turn over to Hawaiian (NYSE:HA) any confidential material in its possession related to the case. "
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HAL
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:53 pm

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
This comment right here just proves that you in no way work for any airline and have little understanding of airlines.

Lighten up Francis! I guess I didn't say it quite right in my original post. What I meant was that the cost to the airlines is dictated much more by cycles than distance. Since in a rational world airfares follow cost, then the cycle is the initial driver of airfares. For those that don't follow that train of thought, here's an example;

For each and every departure you have to pay for gate fees, landing fees, gate agents, ground handlers, fuelers, and per/cycle maintenance inspections. Each flight, no matter how short it is, also requires the use of dispatchers, crew scheduling, marketing and executive personnel, adding to the cost. Aircraft lease costs are normally per month, but if you fly shorter legs you fly less hours per day, which means that those lease costs are spread over less flying, so it actually costs more per hour to lease your planes on short flights than on longer ones. Engine lease cost is normally by the hour, but with additional cost per cycle too. Fuel cost per hour is much greater on short flights because a large portion of the fuel used in a flight is burned during takeoff and climb. Really short flights (like interisland Hawaii flights) are flown at lower altitudes with a greater fuel burn/hour than longer high-altitude flights. Crew costs remain about the same per hour, but at most airlines will be a little higher for shorter flights when there is an additional pay per landing. But overall, the crew costs are a very small part of the overall cost of flying a plane.

When you take all this into consideration, you'll see that that first foot off the ground is pretty darned expensive. You simply can't take the distance of a flight and use that as a direct yardstick as to how the flight should be priced. There's a minimum cost to the airline no matter how short the flight is, then beyond that, it is distance and market pressures that add to that cost. Fares often have little to do with the cost though, as evidenced by Go!'s frequent use of $9, $19, and $29 fares, when outside analysis has shown that it costs Mesa nearly $70 to fly each seat on each flight.

Marketing and Advertising are wonderful things, but don't let yourself forget how to use your brain to discriminate between promotion, hype, and misdirection. Jonathan Ornstein has repeatedly said that Hawaiian is merely trying to stop Go! from providing the people of Hawaii affordable interisland transportation. However Mesa has lost millions of dollars in starting up the Go! operation. Do you honestly think Mesa would continue to fly people around Hawaii for $19 forever when they're losing so much money every day? Are they doing it because they love the people of Hawaii so much? I'd say probably not. Their goal (and this is what was shown during the recent trial) was to push one of the current airlines out of business so they could raise fares and make money that way. Mesa is not a charity, they're a business. And as a business they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to earn a profit. The only way they can do that on such short interisland flights is to sell the seats at or above cost, which has been shown to be several times what they are offering the seats at right now.

Short flights do not equal low cost, and should not equal low fares either.

And for your information, I have been flying for 23 years, flown for Hawaiian for over 8 years, have 7000+ hours flight time, and grew up in an aviation family, so I've been around airlines my whole life. If you'd like to have a rational discussion about any part of the industry I'd be happy to oblige.

HAL

[Edited 2007-11-01 10:11:10]
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 68):
Short flights does not equal low cost, and should not equal low fares either.

One of the best posts I have seen on Anet this year and very spot on.

a CRJ is just not viable on these short segments.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 50):
Mesa does not set any fares or do anything except be a "mass transit company" for US Airways.

The consumer doesn't care who is operating the flight. The point is for a ticket between these cities that is what you will pay. YV gets very little for that flight connecting or P2P aside. US doesn't really try to compete on TUS-PHX on price since there are several van services running up and down I-10 24 hours a day practically, an option not available on the islands.


With the Super Ferry on hiatus and no other easy way to get between islands,HA and AQ charge very decents fares with or without Go!

[Edited 2007-11-01 10:05:29]
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hawaiian717
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 62):
Does anyone really care what happens out there on the islands, probably not.

How about the 1.2 million residents of the state of Hawaii? What about the frequent visitors to the islands? What about the shareholders of Hawaiian Holdings and Mesa Air Group? What about the shareholders of UAL Corporation, as part owners of Aloha?

I'd say lots of people care what happens out there.
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:19 am

HAL, you said it perfectly!!! But lets stoke the fire LOL!!!

How ironic that HAL has posted record profits this last quarter, yet state in court that they need the 80mil to make up for their losses.

I'm not "pro" any airline, as a matter of fact the best flights to Hawaii are on Hawaiian (the only airline we fly to the mainland), second would be Continential, but I've been an Air Traffic Controller here since 1986 and can tell you that everything that HA and AQ are accusing Go! of doing lest the "confidential information " those two did the same to:

1. Mid Pacific
2. Discovery but used the "international" ownership card to put them out
3. Mahalo

If you think that HA and AQ didn't have inside information as to how much and for how long they could drop their fares until the afor mentioned airlines went out to sea; you're really not in touch with how vicious the airline game is.

This is a "smoke and mirror" on HA and AQ's part; they couldn't break Go! because of their financial standing, so they sued because of " confidential information".

BTW if you read the newspaper it clearly stated the honorable judge said "I have to assume that the deleted files were of confidential information nature" so nothing was proved.

Do I think JO did this because he didn't get his way, HECK YES look at his track record.

But say what you will, Go! has made it affordable to fly to the other islands to see family and friends (for now). If they do raise the fares a little then ok, its still cheaper then it was before. HA already stated "under oath" that the fares would go back to the old fares if Go! leaves. So again "the pot calling the kettle black"!!!


This is a tax write off for Mesa and if you think its not; ask yourself, what fool would use CRJ -200 on short hops. But the share holders won't stand for much more of this.

If you're not from the Islands don't compare our fares to the mainlands "short hop fares" you forget, if the fare is to high in the mainland at least you can drive to the city, do that on water.

I say this sends a bad message:

All the "Mom and Pop" shops should band together and file suit against all the Kmarts, Sears, Walmarts, Home Depots etc. because of all the monies they've lost because of the compitition and inside information.

JO knows he only has to play the "wait and see" court game and he'll still win; and someone else may be going out to sea.


Keep it real HAL and tell John Tzak "nahale says hello"
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting Hiloboy1 (Reply 71):
if the fare is to high in the mainland at least you can drive to the city, do that on water.

if you live on an island you kind of have to realize you have limited options  Smile


Would you agree AQ and HA are a vital part of the Hawai'i economy and are more of a public utility than anything else?
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masseybrown
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 72):
Would you agree AQ and HA are a vital part of the Hawai'i economy and are more of a public utility than anything else?

If that is the accepted case, then the State of Hawaii, not the operators, should subsidize the fares or regulate the competition. The operators are entitled to a market rate of return.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 73):
The operators are entitled to a market rate of return.

I agree with that too, I am just saying that Hawaii is a set of islands, and air travel is the primary way to get around, if every one goes bankrupt and quits operating then the traveling public and economy of the state suffer.
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WesternA318
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
AQ and HA may have "won" now but unfortunatly I think one of them will lose in the long run then Mesa can step in and take the place of the one who had closed up shop, raise prices, and gouge the people of Hawaii with high fares like HA and AQ are doing now.



Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
I say everyone should boycott GO! entirely.

Entirely good idea, as I tend to boycott MOST Mesa ops, aside from the SLC-LAS night flight.

BT^W, isn't Gordon Bethune on the BOD of Aloha? I wonder what his opinion is?

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