EI321
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 48):
Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
Emirates will announce an LOI for 50 A350 XWBs

So much for an ORDER for 100

It looks like Clark is taking a page form Airbus and doing the Leahy backtrack

It was UP TO 100. And thats exactly what 50+50 is. We will see.

Quoting Iwok (Reply 48):
Anyway, 50 350's is better than nothing, and while not exactly a home run, the LOI for 50 ships is not too bad.

Not bad at all considering that that there is another six years of orders to come before the A350 even enters service.
 
billreid
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:12 am

The A350XWB is illogical based on Boeing concentrating on the B787. As the A350XWB hasn't even reached design completion why would anyone assume it will meet specs?

Thats like saying the 2007 car in the lot doesn't meet design specifications yet, so I think i'll order a car from 10 years from now that hasn't been designed yet.

Where's the logic?
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JAL
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:42 am

Airbus didn't win this order, it's more like Boeing losing it!

I can't believe Boeing let this slip away!
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tdscanuck
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
The A350XWB is illogical based on Boeing concentrating on the B787.

Not really. The market for aircraft of that size is far larger than either Boeing or Airbus can supply themselves. It's a big sandbox with room for both to play profitably.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
As the A350XWB hasn't even reached design completion why would anyone assume it will meet specs?

If Airbus was really bad at meeting specs, they'd have gone out of business a long time ago. Those airlines willing to take the risk of buying an airplane that's unproven in service generally have performance guarantees in the contract so that, if Airbus doesn't meet the spec, the operator is compensated for the additional cost of the performance shortfall. The financial risk to the operator is comparatively low.

You can't know that an airplane will meet specs until you built it and fly it. And, at least for large commercial jets, the economics are such that you can't design it to build it and fly it unless someone orders it. So pretty much every commercial airplane you've ever flown in recent memory was purchased by someone assuming it would meet specs before it was even designed.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
Thats like saying the 2007 car in the lot doesn't meet design specifications yet, so I think i'll order a car from 10 years from now that hasn't been designed yet.

Where's the logic?

If the manufacturer says "It will meet spec's or we'll pay you the difference" why do you care?

Tom.
 
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 48):
So much for an ORDER for 100

It looks like Clark is taking a page form Airbus and doing the Leahy backtrack

I think Airbus will take their time getting the 389 launched, because its clear they can't bank on anything from EK.

Anyway, 50 350's is better than nothing, and while not exactly a home run, the LOI for 50 ships is not too bad.

iwok

Are we really at the point on A.net where an order for 80 widebodies - a FIRM order if we are to believe the rumor - is "not too bad"??? Are you serious? Man, some of us are going to be in for a rude awakening one day when the orders start drying up.

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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
What I find most intersting is the mix of aircraft, A350-900ER and A350-1000. No 358 or "regular" a359 if this report is accurate.

Some space there for a later 787-8 order?  Smile

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
its the fastest selling widebody in civil aviation history...they can barely keep up with demand..where would the so-called "alarm bells" be? They can't get every order anyway....



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
Boeing needs to get their situation in order before making an attempt at other iterations of the B787

 thumbsup 
Spot on on both counts, IMO

Regards
 
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Airbus is not a lessor and they seem to be rather in cash deficit that surplus these days.

Neither is Boeing Commercial Aircraft, but I believe they do have their own leasing arm in the group, and they even leased a few A340s to EK themselves (the A340s being aircraft that SQ gave to Boeing as part of their initial 777 order).

Plus it isn't unheard of that Airbus would lease out or even "lend" an aircraft to an airline. EA got to test the A300 courtesy of Airbus and later were so satisfied with the aircraft, that they decided to buy them and order a few more.
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chiad
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 55):
Are we really at the point on A.net where an order for 80 widebodies - a FIRM order if we are to believe the rumor - is "not too bad"??? Are you serious? Man, some of us are going to be in for a rude awakening one day when the orders start drying up.

 checkmark 

PlanesNTrains just made it to my respected list!

This will certainly be one of the biggest commercial aviation orders ever made. Geez ... "not so bad".
It's crazy ... just try to imagine 80 planes, especially widebodies, lined up next to each other or flying overhead.
 
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:52 am

Mr Clark speaks again.....

Emirates may not sign $20b aircraft order at air show

BY ISSAC JOHN (Deputy Business Editor)

3 November 2007

DUBAI %u2014 The $20 billion widebody jet order, which Emirates has been widely expected to announce at the Dubai Air Show, is unlikely to be ready in time for the show opening within days, aviation sources said.


The Dubai carrier has warned that there is no guarantee that negotiations with Airbus and Boeing over more than 100 widebody aircraft order would be finalised in time for the announcement at the air show, according to Flight International.

Emirates Airline President Tim Clark was quoted by the industry publication as saying that while the plan has been to "get something knocked out" for the show, "this will only be if we have what we want from Airbus and Boeing. If the things aren't right then we won't sign."

Speaking to Khaleej Times, an Emirates spokesperson confirmed the report as "accurate." An Airbus spokesman also hinted that the long-awaited order would not be announced at the Dubai air show as Emirates has yet to take the final decision about the choice between the two aircraft types. "It can happen after the air show as the carrier is under no pressure to place the order at the show itself."


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...ness_November87.xml�ion=business

Guess that leaves plenty of room for further speculation in the coming weeks.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 54):
Are we really at the point on A.net where an order for 80 widebodies - a FIRM order if we are to believe the rumor - is "not too bad"??? Are you serious? Man, some of us are going to be in for a rude awakening one day when the orders start drying up.

 thumbsup  PlanesNTrains get's straight to the point as we near the end of an elongated order cycle. One just needs to go back to 2002, 2003 & 2004 and realise that an order of this magnitude would have constituted a substantial % of either OEMs entire order book for the year.

Even 12 x 777s and 8 x A388s getting firmed would have been a significant talking point in those lean years.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 48):
Anyway, 50 350's is better than nothing, and while not exactly a home run, the LOI for 50 ships is not too bad.

Not forgetting 30 A330s as well.

How many larger, single orders have there ever been?  sarcastic 
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EI321
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
As the A350XWB hasn't even reached design completion why would anyone assume it will meet specs?

Why assume any aircraft will meet its specs? There are performance guarentees.

The 787 is just not able to do what Emirates wants as it seems. In the same way that the 787 has a monopoly in the 787-8 sized sector, the A350 has the monopoly in the A350-1000 sized sector - and that is what Emirates needs considering their large 777-300 fleet.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
The A350XWB is illogical based on Boeing concentrating on the B787.

Do you mean Illogical in Emirates eyes, or Illogical in gereral?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 60):
The 787 is just not able to do what Emirates wants as it seems. In the same way that the 787 has a monopoly in the 787-8 sized sector, the A350 has the monopoly in the A350-1000 sized sector - and that is what Emirates needs considering their large 777-300 fleet.

So far, of the new plastic planes, we only have firm design specs for the 787-3, -8, -9. Nobody on A.Net knows what the specs are for the 350 because the design hasn't been frozen yet. We don't even have any solid data about what customers are hearing about the performance guarrantees of the 350.

As well, nobody knows what Boeing is telling customers they can do to produce a potential -10 or beyond...and/or what the specs of they will be.

Considering that Boeing is already building the 787, (slowly), I'd be surprised if they didn't have a pretty good handle on what it would take to make a larger version. There is absolutely nothing stopping Boeing from making a 787 that'll compete with the 350, in every category, and visa versa.

The 350 and 787 will be competing for exactly the same market, (the same way the 320 and 737 are), for decades. Who gets to market first, with what model, is the only question.
What the...?
 
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scbriml
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 60):
The 787 is just not able to do what Emirates wants as it seems.

More correctly, the -10 that Boeing is currently prepared to offer doesn't seem to be good enough for EK.

I can't believe that EK won't end up ordering something smaller than the A350-900. The real question for them will be, do they want a plane as "small" as the 787-8? They could well decide that they don't want anything smaller than the 787-9, in which case, they may as well order A350-800s and operate a long-term single fleet of A350s in the medium to large twin category. The top-end will be A380s and possibly 748is if they go for them.

My understanding is that the A330s will definitely be -300s and that the deal was basically done some time ago (indeed, 30 may be on the low side!)
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 49):
Wait a minute, its the only real efficient 250-300 seater you can buy during this economic boom & still Airbus is supposed to run the line at break even or at even a small loss?

You should quantify that statement with "the only real efficient 250-300 seater for missions at or under 5000nm" because if you desire to fly farther, then the 77E and 77L are "the only real efficient 250-300 seater".  Smile

Quoting JAL (Reply 52):
Airbus didn't win this order, it's more like Boeing losing it! I can't believe Boeing let this slip away!

If Airbus won it, they did so because they have the better product at the moment. Boeing has a product - the 77L and 77W - and they're both darn fine planes. They're the best planes in their role at the moment. And EK has been buying them by the score.

But Airbus says they will have something better when EK needs their next set of planes. So they're doing what any intelligently-run airline does and, after crunching the numbers, went with the better option. It's why EK bought 77Ls instead of more A345s and why the canceled their A346s to buy more 77Ws.
 
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
As the A350XWB hasn't even reached design completion why would anyone assume it will meet specs?

Probably for the same reasons that airlines ordered the 787 before design completion. How is it any different?
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columba
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
The A350XWB is illogical based on Boeing concentrating on the B787. As the A350XWB hasn't even reached design completion why would anyone assume it will meet specs?

That did not stop Boeing to get 700 orders even before the plane took off for the first time.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 58):
PlanesNTrains get's straight to the point as we near the end of an elongated order cycle. One just needs to go back to 2002, 2003 & 2004 and realise that an order of this magnitude would have constituted a substantial % of either OEMs entire order book for the year.

Exactly just look at the numbers of Dc 10s and L1011s airlines in the 1970s and 80s had, now an aircraft of the same size can see up to 80 orders by a single customer. That is amazing.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 65):
That did not stop Boeing to get 700 orders even before the plane took off for the first time.

Plane has yet to take off for the first time.
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columba
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 66):
That did not stop Boeing to get 700 orders even before the plane took off for the first time.

Plane has yet to take off for the first time.

That is what I am trying to say the 787 had no chance yet to show that it lives up to its expectations but with Boeing it is taken for granted that it will while it is the opposit with Airbus despite such succesful aircraft as the A300, A320, A330. Granted that there where difficulties with the A346 and the A380 but the A380 delay has nothing to do with performance issues but with the production of the aircraft. Let´s hope that everything goes fine with the 787. I am very confident in both aircraft the 787 and the A350  Smile
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
iwok
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:15 pm

Quoting Chiad (Reply 57):
This will certainly be one of the biggest commercial aviation orders ever made. Geez ... "not so bad".
It's crazy ... just try to imagine 80 planes, especially widebodies, lined up next to each other or flying overhead.

I think you mean to say "this will MAYBE be one of the biggest LOI's" ever placed.  Wow! Why is it that everyone bends over for Clark? There have been many other more impressive "large orders" such as QR's, QF's, ILFCC etc etc, by real airlines who put their money where their mouths are.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 59):
How many larger, single orders have there ever been?

Actually, right now any order for widesbodies is larger because what Clark is now saying (and has for 3-years now) is simply:
"potentially-an-LOI-for-up-to-100-air-craft-with-both-manufacturers, which-might-be-less-than-that, and-which-might-be-placed-as-an-LOI-at-the-Dubai-air-show-but-probably-not"

So I wouln't get all fired up just yet. Many people want this 748/350-787/330 order comes to fruition. It could be nice when ever it happens, but lets just wait and see.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 54):
Are we really at the point on A.net where an order for 80 widebodies - a FIRM order if we are to believe the rumor - is "not too bad"??? Are you serious? Man, some of us are going to be in for a rude awakening one day when the orders start drying up.

These are indeed the glory days, and orders will dry up eventually and don't forget how quickly any of these "mega orders" will be cancelled or defered for 10-years if the world economy goes south... So it doesn't really matter if they are ordered now or not; espeically for planes that are 6-years away like the 350.

iwok
 
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Stitch
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 68):
Why is it that everyone bends over for Clark? There have been many other more impressive "large orders" such as QR's, QF's, ILFCC etc etc, by real airlines who put their money where their mouths are.

A good point. EK's order, whether it is 50 planes or 100, and whether it goes to Boeing, Airbus, or both, is a nice plum, but it is not the end-all, be-all of orders.
 
MD-90
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:47 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 66):
Plane has yet to take off for the first time.

Touché, Motorhussy!
 
gigneil
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
It will also sign a lease of "around 30" A330s as interim lift. No delivery dates given.



Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
Until EK confirms this, its still a rumour, but I am even more pleased to the the A330 included and wonder if the A330-300 are among their plans?

They would almost have to be A330-300s to cover the way EK does business. They can reconfigure their 777-200ERs for further-afield flights and fly the 333s around the Gulf and perhaps to India.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 45):
We're talking about enough airframes to form a new subfleet... so it would work. 29 A332's, 29 (ish) A333s? Now only at the highest MTOW (EK will need the range. The 68k thrust powerplants would have marginal cargo on a few routes.

They would almost certainly config them up with Trent 772Bs just like their 332 fleet - and I am not 100% sure I agree with you that a subfleet is needed. The 333 and 332 are well over 90% common

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
It will order a mix of A350-900ERs and 350-1000.



Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
What I find most intersting is the mix of aircraft, A350-900ER and A350-1000.



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
Is this a new variant? How does it differ from a A350-900?



Quoting Chiad (Reply 19):
Is there an A350-900ER already?

I have a hard time believing that they will wait for the A350-900R, since that is the LAST model in the passenger lineup to be delivered. But yes, it is available for order.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Sorry. What I meant to say was maybe the press was the one adding the "ER" to the name, not Airbus. So these would be A350-900s and not A350-900Rs.

IDK if you have any way necessarily to support that statement... they could well be 900Rs and the press just added the E. I tend to agree with you, but not for reasons of misplaced typography.

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Airbus is not a lessor and they seem to be rather in cash deficit that surplus these days.

As was pointed out, they are indeed a lessor, and they are certainly not short cash.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Doesn't e.g. ILFC own a few Airbusses?

Please tell me that's a joke.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
The A350XWB is illogical based on Boeing concentrating on the B787. As the A350XWB hasn't even reached design completion why would anyone assume it will meet specs?



Quoting BillReid (Reply 51):
Where's the logic?

I don't follow your logic in any way. We're talking about $200m airframes not $25k Corsicas. They come with massive performance guarantees and delivery compensation, clearly as you've seen with the A380.

Airbus has never blown one of their performance guarantees, sure we all can agree that the A340-600 falls a little short of the 777-300ER but they are both still MASSIVELY efficient airframes that delivered on their agreements.

This is science, not random speculation.

NS
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:00 pm

It will be very interesting to see how this EK order goes.

Aspects of the order:
1. Short term (early deliveries). If done by "placeholder" aircraft on a relatively low cost lease.
2. A large quantity of airplanes.
3. CASM/fuel burn are the differentiators that EK is focusing on. Hence, their demand for rather large airframes.
4. EK's willingness to split orders. e.g, the possibility of 10 to 20 748's.

Question: Whom else in the next 12 months is bidding out a large widebody order? I'm aware of VA, but no one else other than EK currently soliciting bids on the scale of dozens of airframes. So quickly we became numb to QF sized orders!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Columba (Reply 65):
Exactly just look at the numbers of Dc 10s and L1011s airlines in the 1970s and 80s had, now an aircraft of the same size can see up to 80 orders by a single customer. That is amazing.

We a.netters get numbed by the volumes of narrow bodies. Most wide bodies are successful at 300 orders. Any aircraft that breaks 1000 is considered a major success by everyone in the industry.

Quoting Columba (Reply 67):
but the A380 delay has nothing to do with performance issues but with the production of the aircraft.

Mostly... there is a weight issue that must still be worked on. So obviously they need to hire more R&D engineers.  Wink

Since delivery timing will be of great interest to EK (previously discussed retirements of A343, A332, 77A, 773, 772ER), I do not think EK has forever to negotiate. If they can squeeze a further 10% cost cut... it makes a big difference. I have a feeling its like an order for engineering services one of my friends is negotiating. They are stalled at the contract table due to a 2% difference is costs between the business plan and the bids. Since there is no bid without meeting the target ROI, the contract isn't going forward. However, if cost savings can be realized, then the corporate minimum ROI is met... and the purchase goes forward. But no new venture is initiated at most companies unless a certain minimum ROI can be met. These "number run" companies tend to be 'tough nuts' to negotiate with; but I cannot help but notice they are also the companies that do well in the long term.

Many people dislike EK for being run as a business. So what? From what I can tell in their negotiations, they target a certain ROI on airframe purchases and keep negotiating until something changes to get that ROI. Its about time airlines were run the way most other companies are run.


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keesje
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 71):
They would almost have to be A330-300s to cover the way EK does business. They can reconfigure their 777-200ERs for further-afield flights and fly the 333s around the Gulf and perhaps to India.

I think the A330-300 covers more then India & the Gulf from Dubai.

5500nm range from DXB.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
QantasHeavy
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:10 pm

Has anyone done a calculation of the numbers of airframes EK has announced over the last 5 years... seems like a few hundred thousand. Hard to image a few years ago when they had a couple old Airbuses going to India and Gatwick.

Really an amazing story. They seem to fill airplanes, but one would think with the fleet they are building it will truly test supply and demand via DXB. I just wish they would treat their employees better; EK used to have such good service, now it is OK but not as good as it used to be. Crews don't seem fresh and happy. All just my opinion, but I remember when flying EK was something special; now the service calibre on most flights is mass market (albeit with great food and incredible IFE!). I wish they would invest some more $ in staff along with their metal.
 
gigneil
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 73):
I think the A330-300 covers more then India & the Gulf from Dubai.

I don't.

First of all, and you know damn well, no plane flies at the stated zero-wind min-reserves range.

Second, Dubai is a HOT airfield.

Third, EK loves their cargo.

Fourth, their cabin densities generally are well above average.

Fifth, owning them doesn't fit their business model otherwise. They can now move their more capable 777-200ERs that are on some of those shorter routes further afield. It makes sense to keep planes within their optimum payload bands.

NS
 
EI321
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 75):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 73):
I think the A330-300 covers more then India & the Gulf from Dubai.


I don't.

Well EI flys the A330-200 from Dubai to DUB. Even if you cut over 1000 miles off the rang fort the -300, it could reach much of Europe. Not that it matters because they will use the A330-300s on the shorter routes where it would be better than a 777, if they order it.
 
gigneil
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:20 pm

I'm not saying it can't.

I'm saying it won't.

I think we agree.  Smile

NS
 
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keesje
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 75):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 73):
I think the A330-300 covers more then India & the Gulf from Dubai.


I don't.

Yes it does. I could not find a payload range diagram but I think it is safe to assume that even from the hottest airport, at MTOW with full passenger load and cargo it easily covers Europe, India, Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong and Shanghai. It's a medium - long range twin, not a regional.


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gigneil
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:44 pm

Like I said. I'm not saying it can't. I am saying THEY won't.

NS
 
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 79):
Like I said. I'm not saying it can't. I am saying THEY won't.

there's no reason. <4500 it carries the same amount of passengers & cargo. Only for less money.

A330 are what made EK grow during the last 10 years. All over the place from Melbourne to Manchester, Moscow Bangkok and Joburg. Everywhere except the US.

For reference Cathay also flies them to e.g DXB, Australia. NWA fies a fleet of them full & heavy over the Atlantic.

Reason : high fuel prices, its taste for cargo & lowest CASM: http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...nStanleyDeanWittervalueBriefin.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
swallow
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:37 pm

Scott Hamilton says Airbus may get up to 100 A350 orders at the show including the Emirates order. He thinks they will order the 3510 variant.

He is also predicting an order from Dubai Aerospace Enterprise, a new leasing company, for the A350 at the Dubai Air show

http://www.leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn110607.pdf
The grass is greener where you water it
 
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keesje
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting Swallow (Reply 81):
Scott Hamilton

A journalist that has opinions and dares to communicate them regardless of official statements and public sentiments and gets the phone picked up by the big OEMS. Lets give him a face..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:44 pm

He also evidently haunts airliners.net, since some of his questions asked to Northup on the KC-30 program were asked in the thread about that program in the MilAv forum.

Which, frankly, is quite fine by me since he has access to industry resources I do not and the answers to those questions helps me understand things better and more logically and effectively form and frame my own arguments.
 
kaitak
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:01 pm

The A330-300 is, as stated above, a highly efficient aircraft; true, early examples - such as those delivered to IT and now with EI and SN-BRU, were a bit short legged, but even the EI ones fly from DUB-ORD which, in Winter, is around 8h (and of course you have to allow for weather holding and diversion). I'm guessing that EK will probably want the -343X model, even if it is just flying regional services, e.g. primarily India and the M/E. For a start, there's the climate issue (40 degrees plus is rare in Dublin in Winter - even in Fahrenheit!!), but also there's the flexibility issue. How will the EK 333s be configured - let's say (ballpark figure) - about 280 in 3 class and 320 in Economy, which puts it nicely between the 332 and 772.

With the extra type, EK can interchange between the 333 and 332 on certain routes, without worrying about different crews for different aircraft. The closeness in capacity between the various models in different configs makes it easier for EK to match different aircraft to different missions more easily; the incremental increases in capacity can be quite small: it's not like going from (say) an A300 to a 747.
 
gigneil
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 80):
there's no reason. <4500 it carries the same amount of passengers & cargo. Only for less money.

I've given my reasons. You're just ignoring them.

NS
 
kaitak
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting Swallow (Reply 81):
Scott Hamilton says Airbus may get up to 100 A350 orders at the show including the Emirates order. He thinks they will order the 3510 variant.

He is also predicting an order from Dubai Aerospace Enterprise, a new leasing company, for the A350 at the Dubai Air show

Thanks for introducing me to Scott's column and Leeham; it's always great to find new sources of aviation news!
 
EI321
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 83):
He also evidently haunts airliners.net

Im pretty sure all the big journos do. And Randy and Leahy.
 
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keesje
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
Until EK confirms this, its still a rumour, but I am even more pleased to the the A330 included and wonder if the A330-300 are among their plans?

maybe 12 A330F's is part of the deal, seems a suitable aircraft for EK, covering much of asia / europe at superior efficiency while maintaining commonality with their large a330 fleet..


64 tons over 4000nm, 69 tons over 3200nm from Dubai.

[Edited 2007-11-07 07:06:26]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 88):
maybe 12 A330F's is part of the deal, seems a suitable aircraft for EK, covering much of asia / europe at superior efficiency while maintaining commonality with their large a330 fleet..

How did you come to that conclusion and the number of frames?

What would be nice, is if EK becomes the launch customer for the A333-300F. Less range but more cargo capability over the A332F.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
EI321
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 88):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
Until EK confirms this, its still a rumour, but I am even more pleased to the the A330 included and wonder if the A330-300 are among their plans?

maybe 12 A330F's is part of the deal, seems a suitable aircraft for EK, covering much of asia / europe at superior efficiency while maintaining commonality with their large a330 fleet..

Well I have been quite accurate with my A330F order predictions this year and Emirates are one of the airlines that I have tipped to order it.

I also predicted that the A330 would hit the 200 order mark in 2007 and its a case of so far so good.  Wink
 
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Stitch
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 88):
maybe 12 A330F's is part of the deal, seems a suitable aircraft for EK, covering much of asia / europe at superior efficiency while maintaining commonality with their large a330 fleet..

On the flip side, additional 77Fs would allow them to carry 100t to all of Asia and Europe at even superior efficiency while maintaining commonality with their large combined 77F, 77L and 77W fleet.  scratchchin 
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 91):

On the flip side, additional 77Fs would allow them to carry 100t to all of Asia and Europe at even superior efficiency while maintaining commonality with their large combined 77F, 77L and 77W fleet.

Exactly Stitch. The 77F is perfect for EK's cargo needs, although I would not rule out an eventual A330F order to supplement their 748F/77F fleet.

Have three models to serve the three distinctive niches of the market.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A&C: Emirates - 50 A350XWB + 30 A330s

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 92):
Exactly Stitch. The 77F is perfect for EK's cargo needs, although I would not rule out an eventual A330F order to supplement their 748F/77F fleet. Have three models to serve the three distinctive niches of the market.

Indeed. The A332F should prove to be a great mid-size freighter. EK may very well find a need for her now, but if not, I do agree they will likely find a need for her later.

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