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Orion737
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:28 pm

Is AA the only carrier serving Port-Au-Prince? With what equipment? Any other US airlines considering this volatile but lucrative route??
 
DFW13L
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:39 pm

I can't answer for other airlines, but AA sends in 3 A300s from MIA, 1 A300 from FLL, and 1 737-800 from FLL.
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
Orion737
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:42 pm

No NYC service? AA could do with a bit of competition. How about DL now they are looking for international expansion?
 
luv2fly
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:47 pm

It is not a tourist destination by any stretch of the imagination.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Orion737
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:49 pm

I know that but demand exists, hence AA service with A300s and their relative high fares.
 
mia
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:51 pm

Air France does the route from MIA with a A320 as well I think.
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luv2fly
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:55 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 4):
I know that but demand exists, hence AA service with A300s and their relative high fares.

High fares are part of doing business to this country, i.e., security costs and such. I am sure other airlines are more then happy not to be serving this third world country.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
DFW13L
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:02 pm

Also, the cargo capacity of the A300 is a big deal for this route.
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
VictorKilo
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:05 pm

Spirit also has one daily flight from FLL to POP.
 
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United_fan
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 8):
Spirit also has one daily flight from FLL to POP.

It's PAP,not POP.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
PRAirbus
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:28 pm

AA has a daily AB6 flight from JFK. A few years ago AA offered a BOS-PAP-BOS flight several times per week...I guess it was not profitable. AA also flew from SJU a daily AT7 and sometimes via SDQ (SJU-SDQ-PAP), that was cancelled too. Not sure if Air Caraibes still flies to PAP from MIA and SJU they used to.
 
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United_fan
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 6):
High fares are part of doing business to this country, i.e., security costs and such. I am sure other airlines are more then happy not to be serving this third world country.

I've read that it's so bad there,AA will not RON there .
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
rwsea
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 11):
I've read that it's so bad there,AA will not RON there .

That's probably the reason that AF's flight is during the daylight and doesn't connect to it's CDG service. Just too risky.

Not US-Haiti, but I believe AC serves PAP from YUL also.
 
aa1818
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 11):
I've read that it's so bad there,AA will not RON there .

What's RON?

Cheers
AA1818
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DFW13L
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 13):
What's RON?

Remain Over Night. Just another annoying code word for..the plane overnights there.

You know...everything in the airline industry has a 3 letter code. I thought you knew this by now!
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
BigGSFO
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:15 pm

It's my understanding that due to the security risk, the AA crews don't even get off the plane. It lands from the US and turns right around.
 
Orion737
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:18 pm

Thay are anxious not to give this 'fat' route up though. Come on DL or CO, give them some much needed competition.
 
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United_fan
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 16):
Come on DL or CO, give them some much needed competition

I'm sure there's easier $ to be made,or they'de be there...plus the A300's are perfect for all the excess cargo Haitians bring.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
RAFVC10
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US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:41 pm

Spirit Airlines flies daily from Fort Lauderdale to Haiti. On Monday, Tuesday and Sunday, there are a second daily flight from this city to Port Au Prince.

Regards,

Gerard
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
 
2travel2know
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:08 pm

Haïti is very much an O/D destination.
It would be interesting to see a DL ATL-PAP or US CLT-PAP since those would be flights into PAP from hubs, but very little traffic would be made from outside South Florida, NYC area or YUL.
CM flies twice weekly from PTY hub and that flight it's known to have lots of O/D traffic.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
MAH4546
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:21 pm

Miami probably accounts for more than eighty percent of US-Haiti demand. The AA flights show it. It rarely has more than twenty connecting passengers and they are mostly coming from Montreal and Nassau. The market from New York is also not as large as it used to be. If Delta wanted to give it a shot, they would likely not be able to pull it off from Atlanta but rather JFK or FLL. Also the security costs of flying there are very high. Starting next month every AA flight to PAP will be an A300 as they are upgrading the FLL route.
a.
 
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United_fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:07 pm

So there must be a sizeable Haitian population in YUL? I would have never thought that...
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
G5ive
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 21):
So there must be a sizeable Haitian population in YUL? I would have never thought that...

Oh yeah..pretty much.
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United_fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
It is not a tourist destination by any stretch of the imagination

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_917.html

Ummm,yeah. After reading that,there must ALOT of O/D!
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
rwsea
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
If Delta wanted to give it a shot, they would likely not be able to pull it off from Atlanta but rather JFK or FLL. Also the security costs of flying there are very high. Starting next month every AA flight to PAP will be an A300 as they are upgrading the FLL route.

I would agree that if DL added PAP, likely it would be from JFK (their FLL flight to SDQ didn't last long). Regarding security, DL might be an expert in that soon given some of the new routes they're starting (specifically LOS).
 
flymia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 16):
Thay are anxious not to give this 'fat' route up though. Come on DL or CO, give them some much needed competition

Well if DL would try to fly to PAP it would have to be from JFK or FLL. JFK market is not that big though. MIA/FLL is where most of the demand to PAP is. Its almost al O/D. American Airlines and Spirit Airlines have ticket offices in the Miami neighborhood of Little Haiti for the people who want to buy tickets cash.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 12):
That's probably the reason that AF's flight is during the daylight and doesn't connect to it's CDG service. Just too risky.

AF flys MIA-PAP with their A320's for the O/D market. There is no connecting traffic and never would be any. Locals like the flight because the service is a little bit better on AF and they get a hot meal for the short flight.

Haiti is a very dangerous and under developed place, no airline crews from outside the country will get off their planes.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
nkops
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 11):
I've read that it's so bad there,AA will not RON there .

It's not a good idea to RON there... even when we ran 3 flights a day from FLL-PAP... none of them would overnite.. always turns.
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
2travel2know
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 25):
Haiti is a very dangerous and under developed place, no airline crews from outside the country will get off their planes.

Some daring crew members from one of the few airlines flying scheduled to PAP do go into the airport dutyfree stores to buy Haïtian rum.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
AlexPorter
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:43 pm

Remember that a year or so ago, all the US security checkpoints had these little warning messages that said Port-Au-Prince did not practice proper security measures.
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Alessandro
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:25 am

Perhaps many uses DR instead and goes overland to Haiti?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
luv2fly
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 29):
Perhaps many uses DR instead and goes overland to Haiti?

The Island is divided by a large mountain range that effectively rules out that option.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Alessandro
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:36 am

Luv2fly, sure, but there are bustravel to Haiti, I been to DR myself (Souza) and you could go to Haiti on daytrips at a low price.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Caymanair
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 21):
So there must be a sizeable Haitian population in YUL? I would have never thought that...

Yes....a good 1/4 million Haitians in Quebec. Canada's Governor General is a Haitian woman.

AF serves MIA-PAP and PAP on to some French West Indian destinations.
NAS-PAP and NAS-CAP was offered by Bahamasair for a while....they have wanted to enter the market again but aircraft problems have prevented this.
KIN-PAP was offered by AJX, but after AJX was closed down the route ended. It was profitable.
MIA/FLL/JFK-PAP by AA (evil empire)
FLL-PAP by Spirit.
YUL-PAP by AC. it was a 2 weekly 747 before...now a 3 weekly 767. always full.

AF used to only have one A320 based in the Caribbean and therefore couldn't serve PAP-MIA daily. Air Caraibes used to operate as Air France Regional 2 daily PAP-MIA on an ERJ that left 30 minutes apart on the days an A320 couldn't be spared. When Air Caraibes launched service from FWI to Paris, Air France got angry and ended that relationship. Air Caraibes continues to serve PAP from Caribbean cities.
 
aircanada014
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 21):
So there must be a sizeable Haitian population in YUL? I would have never thought that

Air Canada has been flown to Port Au Prince for many years.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:56 am





Interesting footage of the the airport.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:00 am

The biggest issue with PAP and Haiti is what posters above haves said. It isn't a tourist destination unlike it's neighbor to the east (Dominican Republic) which has flourished as a favorite tropical escape destination for over two decades now for Canadians and Europeans especially. Haiti by far and away remains the poorest nation in the western hemisphere, well ahead of Ecuador, Honduras, the D.R. amongst others with not much hope of moving up in the pecking order or even narrowing a gap with the after-for-metioned countries. Environmental conditions in Haiti also don't favor developing much of a tourist market given the massive amounts of deforestation. It's amazing (if not scary) to look at satellite and aerial imagery of Hispaniola, you can physically see the border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Caymanair
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:26 am

O come on.....its not that bad......Haiti is quite a beautiful country. The cruise line has a large piece of land called Labadee on the North Coats that they used to pass off as a 'private island'.

The only thing holding Haiti back is violence. During the Duvalier dictatorship the economy was much better and it was more stable....and as such they had a thriving tourism industry. The DR was (back then) not popular and people preferred to go to Haiti. There was significantly more service then from AF, including non-stops to Paris, and some local carriers.

There are 2 or 3 local carriers that fly between Port au Prince, Cap Haitien, Port de Paix, Jacmel, and Les Cayes.


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shadez
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:31 am

Lynx Air International also flys FLL- Cap Haitien
 
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yyz717
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:51 am

Air Transat also operates weekly charters from YUL in the winter.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
md90fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:51 am

One must also take into account that there are high security risks involved, for instance, IIRC 60 people were kidnapped around PAP last year (source: Miami Herald Bahamas edition), and the fact that Haiti is the poorest nation in the Western hemisphere doesn't help either.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
. It rarely has more than twenty connecting passengers and they are mostly coming from Montreal and Nassau

...No BOS pax?

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 32):
NAS-PAP and NAS-CAP was offered by Bahamasair for a while....they have wanted to enter the market again but aircraft problems have prevented this.

It stopped because of the outbreak of violence and the opinions that Bahamians had on the flight (they thought more Haitians were coming in)

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 32):
Air Caraibes continues to serve PAP from Caribbean cities.

Yeah, I've seen PTP-PAP flown with an E-175.

[Edited 2007-11-02 21:53:40]
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
co777er
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 23):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
It is not a tourist destination by any stretch of the imagination

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_917.html

Ummm,yeah. After reading that,there must ALOT of O/D!

I remember seeing signs at the TSA checkpoints at SNA declaring Port au Prince an airport not authorized by the State Department b/c of security concerns.
 
commavia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting CO777ER (Reply 40):
I remember seeing signs at the TSA checkpoints at SNA declaring Port au Prince an airport not authorized by the State Department b/c of security concerns.

Yeah, those signs are everywhere around FLL. On a trip through FLL on my way back to DFW on AA, as we went through security at FLL, there were probably 3-4 signs - some on the wall, some on placard stands - saying that PAP was deemed unsafe/unsecure by the TSA. (It was somewhat comical, as my flight to DFW left about 20 minutes before the flight the AA flight to PAP, so about half the people in the security line at the time of the morning were Haitians headed to Haiti.)
 
miamix707
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 21):
So there must be a sizeable Haitian population in YUL? I would have never thought that...

There is a relatively large Haitian population in Orlando as well.

Quoting Shadez (Reply 37):
Lynx Air International also flys FLL- Cap Haitien

They used to fly from MIA as well IIRC.

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 36):
There are 2 or 3 local carriers that fly between Port au Prince, Cap Haitien, Port de Paix, Jacmel, and Les Cayes.

That Haitian 707 is gorgeous! Elegant livery (but that was a cargo airline). Besides those good old carriers there was also Halisa Air and Hanair, both short-lived airlines during the earlier part of the '90's. More recently there has been Air D'Haiti which has been operated by Falcon Air and Aerocontinente.
 
md90fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 42):
More recently there has been Air D'Haiti which has been operated by Falcon Air and Aerocontinente.

How can you forget about the Haitian start-ups surfacing every couple of years wanting to wet-lease Falcon Air 727s and MD-80s?  silly 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
MAC26000
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:56 am

Its for security reasons that they do not RON. The crime rate is extremley high and there is really no stable government to speak of.
 
skywatch
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 36):
O come on.....its not that bad......Haiti is quite a beautiful country. The cruise line has a large piece of land called Labadee on the North Coats that they used to pass off as a 'private island'.

The only thing holding Haiti back is violence. During the Duvalier dictatorship the economy was much better and it was more stable....and as such they had a thriving tourism industry. The DR was (back then) not popular and people preferred to go to Haiti. There was significantly more service then from AF, including non-stops to Paris, and some local carriers.

The problem with that statement is that you are using the present tense "is" with comparisons from the past. I lived in Haiti for 2 months in 2000, during Aristide's presidency. Everywhere you look (with the exception of a few rich neighborhoods) poverty is rampant. What used to be an island covered in tropical rainforests is now a semi-arid land prone to drought. I have been to a few nice spots on the coast, but what country doesn't have at least a few places to escape to? From my experience, Haiti is a mess that can't be fixed through foreign aid. The U.S. has tried that, and hardly any of the money made it past the Hatian government. Interestingly enough, a global study found Haiti to be the most corrupt nation in the world.

So that's why there is such limited service too Haiti. In short, more routes will be added when the demand is present, but right now, Port-au-Prince is very dangerous for tourists. I

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 34):
Interesting footage of the the airport.

Wow, that made that airport look pretty cool/exotic! What they didn't show was the inside of the terminal! It smelled so bad in there, and there was no air conditioning. To make matters worse, the efficiency of the baggage handlers isn't that great, so I spent way more time in there than I wanted to. The departure end of the airport is much better, having shops, A/C, and was just more clean in apperance.

---Skywatch
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 36):
Haiti is quite a beautiful country. The cruise line has a large piece of land called Labadee on the North Coats that they used to pass off as a 'private island'.

Notice the term "used". Haiti {b]used[/b] to be more popular.

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 36):
The only thing holding Haiti back is violence. During the Duvalier dictatorship the economy was much better and it was more stable....

Perhaps under the father. But "Baby Doc" is the one that really sank this country and built up such a huge oligarchy that this country has sank into such depths they may never dig themselves out of. Voodoo is still VERY prevalent and the military oligarchy that still exists is the biggest source of all of the violence. Nice pic's in the d-base from a bygone era however....

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 45):
The problem with that statement is that you are using the present tense "is" with comparisons from the past. I lived in Haiti for 2 months in 2000, during Aristide's presidency. Everywhere you look (with the exception of a few rich neighborhoods) poverty is rampant. What used to be an island covered in tropical rainforests is now a semi-arid land prone to drought. I have been to a few nice spots on the coast, but what country doesn't have at least a few places to escape to? From my experience, Haiti is a mess that can't be fixed through foreign aid. The U.S. has tried that, and hardly any of the money made it past the Hatian government. Interestingly enough, a global study found Haiti to be the most corrupt nation in the world.

 checkmark  This completely sums up what I was trying to say in my reply above. It is quite interesting to point out the night and day difference between Haiti and the DR. The State Department and Canada's overseas tourist agency strongly advise all citizens to even avoid the area in the DR close to the Haitian border due to the security issues.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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United_fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:26 pm

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL837

AA's JFK flight must be Sat only . Notice the flight arrives @ 17:30 and departs @ 19:51. I'm sure the crew is praying that nothing goes wrong and the plane goes tech there  Smile
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
miamix707
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:12 pm

It begs the question, why doesn't the govt. seem to care as much about countries closer to home when we're always talking about poverty in Africa and do all this regime change in Iraq, etc. Shouldn't we start by doing something in our neighborhood? For sure It would've been much cheaper than Iraq AND w/out the casualties.

Oh wait, Haiti has no oil..

[Edited 2007-11-03 12:15:24]

[Edited 2007-11-03 12:16:42]
 
Caymanair
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 48):
It begs the question, why doesn't the govt. seem to care as much about countries closer to home when we're always talking about poverty in Africa and do all this regime change in Iraq, etc. Shouldn't we start by doing something in our neighborhood? For sure It would've been much cheaper than Iraq AND w/out the casualties.

Oh wait, Haiti has no oil..

Preach it father.......

Still, The US has basically been the ones putting all these terrible governments in power. Since 1919 (when they invaded Haiti) they have basically been in charge, and of course, things have only gotten worse.

Tourists still came in droves during Baby Doc's time. Things got worse for Haitians under him, but it got better for foreigners. Baby Doc had a very expensive wife to keep, after all.

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