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aces727
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:39 pm

I have a couple of friends that fly for Copa Airlines. They hate to fly to Haiti, they cannot understand the control tower, moreoever many passengers don't behave, (more than any other nation Copa flies to). Passengers on this route go full of bags, more than what they should, but hey no body can tell them not to. They seat wherever they want to seat, period. I also believe Copa had to suspend their Panama-Port Au Prince-Kingston/Montego combination, as Haitians will be fighting with the Jamaicans (my friends have no complaints at all about Jamaican passengers). I don't know if Copa still has the Jamaica / Haiti flight combination (I am not sure). I have by my self experienced a small "riot" of a group of Haitians ready to board a flight to Port Au Prince @ PTY. And I've never seen such aggressive scene. I don't know the reason why they were upset, but boy....... Scary to be a flight attendant or pilot in those flights.
 
miamix707
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:44 pm

Seriously, it's pretty obvious the last two US presidents have done nothing to improve the situation in the neighborhood and bring the Americas closer together. The first one goes into a war to look good in front of the Muslims in the Balkans and bombed a place we had no business bombing. As if wasn't enough gave away millions so N. Korea would use it for peaceful purposes. Results? They spent it on getting nukes. Then Bush goes over to Iraq and spends billions to look good to a culture that still lives in the stone age. If anything they should've toppled the Iranian regime... too late now IRAN too has nukes.

If Reagan was president I doubt Chavez would still be alive wrecking his country and uniting poor Latin America into hating the US. There would not have been thousands and thousands of Venezuelans fleeing to Miami buying overpriced properties helping make housing completely unaffordable in south florida for the average incomes. It's very possible we'd be seeing cheaper oil prices too.

Help in Mexico and Central America improving the quality of life for those people. That will eventually reduce illegal inmigration and poverty. Thanks to these poor conditions spring up gangs like MS13 that eventually end up on a neighborhood nearby here in the US. I'm all for protecting Israel and taking democracy to Iraq, but if they spend as much money making sure the neighborhood looks nice, we woudln't have to be sucking up to the Saudis and worried so much about what the Arabs think of America. Maybe we could even import cheap biofiuel from places like Brasil, since we don't want to produce anything anymore. Let's make stuff in Haiti and it will cost less to ship it here.

And last but not least stop helping China control the US economy and let's make it made in the Americas. Just an idea...
 
Viscount724
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 32):
Quoting United_Fan (Reply 21):
So there must be a sizeable Haitian population in YUL? I would have never thought that...

Yes....a good 1/4 million Haitians in Quebec. Canada's Governor General is a Haitian woman.

That number is too high, at least according to the 2001 Canadian census which reported about 83,000 people of Haitian origin in Canada, about 90% in Quebec and mostly in YUL. 2006 Census data not yet available. I'm sure the number has increased but I doubt it's close to 1/4 million. About 2% of YUL's population was of Haitian origin in 2001.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepu...621-XIE/2007011/tables/tab2-en.htm
 
2175301
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:40 pm

I have spent several days in Port-Au-Prince, and seen parts of the rural areas. I have a painting (painted on sugar bag canvas) hanging on my bedroom wall from Haiti.

I do not believe that the vast majority of people posting on this thread - or the vast majority of people on this world even have a clue what life is like in Haiti, and Port-Au-Prince.

If you get up and walk the streets of Port-Au-Prince in the morning you will find dead bodies here and there (and you may have to step over them). If you are not careful after dark it will be your body that someone else steps over in the morning.

While I have not been there for years; If I were to return today the first thing I would do for protection is to get to the nearest house of prostitution - hire several escort gals for my stay - and pay extra money to the brothel owner to not have any problems during my visit. I cannot imagine that I would actually have sex with any of the gals - its just a relatively cheap way to purchase relatively reliable protection.

The poverty is extreme - and shocking to most people (even seasoned travelers to other "poor" nations). The people have stripped the forest and land.

Port-Au-Prince is one of the places in the world where international sex slavery rings operate in the relative open. I have personally been where I could buy a young woman - nationality of my choosing (Asian, Spanish, North American, etc), of several age ranges (young teenage, older teenage to very early 20's) who would be mine to do with as I pleased. They would drug her as needed or requested and supply any other items anyone could desire... Sickening (at least for me), and I'll not post the worst of it (note the reason I was there was others in my group that were interested in some of the other services offered by that establishment - and for safety we had to travel as a group). Also, yes these girls have been either kidnapped or sold into slavery from their home countries or when traveling - and their lives are only worth what the ring can sell them for. Most end up dead or get put into lifelong prostitution after their first client is done with them.

Haiti was the one country that really educated me about the world. In my youth, when traveling while in the US Navy - I was forever seeing problems in other countries and saying to myself (and projecting to others)... Here is how we would solve this problem in America.

Haiti, when I first visited, was the country where I realized that US solutions would not work. I literally walked around on autopilot in shock for about a week after my first visit in the late 70's. Then I started asking myself what was different about the culture - and what solutions would work for that culture.

I will say that it made me look at other foreign countries in a new light and stop thinking about how we would solve the problem in the US. Instead I would try to understand the culture - and start asking how would you solve the apparent problems within that culture. I also started to see some of the reasons that many people in other countries do not like americans in general. However, I also found that I was a very welcome guest once these people understood that I wanted to learn about them and their culture - and not impose American solutions and culture on them (I have had some really great meals as peoples house guest in a half dozen countries of the world - and made some great friends).

Very few people understand the issues involved for those thinking that we should "fix" the problems of Haiti (or many other 3rd world countries in the world). The missionaries have offered some help - but have not gotten far (and I have a missionary friend who goes to Haiti every year for a month or so, and I know a gal from Haiti who fled for political persecution reasons and became a nurse here in the US. She would be dead if she ever traveled back to Haiti).

I do not have a solution to how to solve the problems of Haiti and bring it better into the fold of the world. I've been there, seen it, and thought about it a fair amount.

Sobering. The US travel advisories do not tell the full story. But, I do suggest that you actually go there for a few days - and get out of the hotel and see the city and the countryside if you really want to learn about the world.

Or is it that, to quote a great line in a movie, "You want the truth...You can't handle the truth..."

I doubt that many other airlines are really interested in servicing Haiti.

I also understand that the real issues in many parts of the world are not things that US solutions will solve. I suggest that the real reason that we, the US, did not have a good plan after winning the initial war in Iraq was that the "leadership" of the military, congress, and the President did not really consider the cultural issues involved. I propose that properly considering the cultural issues would have the US at this time very close to turning over, with minimal fighting and casualties to this point, a rebuilt and robust Iraq - and the world and America would have been proud of the job done.

I also understand that some of the crime and poverty issues within the US are also more of a cultural issue.

I also understand that the United States of America is a unique country in the world with freedoms and a system that allows people from many cultures to blend together and grow. While success is not guaranteed - people living in the US have a chance for success that does not exist in many other places in the world - where the chance for success is much less dependent on background, class, race, or anything else than any other place in the world. I am not interested in living in any other country in the world. Now if more people living in America would only learn - really learn - that much of the rest of the world operates to different cultural norms - and learn to work with those other cultures; we, as a country, would do much better in the world than we do now.
 
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United_fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:21 am

Well put,2175301. I was watching 'The Serpent and the Rainbow' the other night. Anyone wanting to go to Haiti should watch this movie first. Not the 'horror' parts,but how things are on the island.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
miamix707
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:18 am

Interesting experiences I bet, but so there's nothing we can do? Even if we supposedly and absolutely coudln't help bring a better leader to Haiti.. history has shown there's plenty of instances we missed the chance to help in the neighborhood and it has come back to bite the US in the rear later. Cuba, Venezuela, etc. Examples are many.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 53):
I also understand that the real issues in many parts of the world are not things that US solutions will solve. I suggest that the real reason that we, the US, did not have a good plan after winning the initial war in Iraq was that the "leadership" of the military, congress, and the President did not really consider the cultural issues involved.

No, IMO the only reason why we are still at this "war" is because the US was afraid, again of the Arab and more precisely Muslim opinion. There could've been a much reduced number of casualties if radicals like Al Sadr and hate-instigating figures like this had been taken out fromt he beginning instead of being "ignored". Same thing with the many foreign fighters that were pouring in at the beginning from Iran and elsewhere and they were just ignored because their "focus" was to get Saddam and his top 55 whatever (those probably were the best of the bunch compared to the AlQaida and AlSadr suppoters that were blowing themselves up later). I remember seeing a reporter talking to some locals when a guy comes up and says yeah I was behind the attack, I did it. You don't give this guy a second chance, you call the military and take him out.

Another country would've ended this earlier. The US tried to be too careful and respect local customs and all of that. This is how it should've been done from the beginning: There are fighters holed up in say Sadr City? Bring some loundspeakers, drop some leaflets that warn if the fighters don't come out and drop their weapons we're going to destroy house by house until they come out..

People would start getting the point and copperating when they see it's either them or the terrorists.
 
captaink
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:41 am

Don't foreign airports have to meet FAA standards for American carriers to fly there? Or for a flight from said airport to land in the US? If there are so many security concerns why is AA flying there? Aren't they afraid of some calamity taking place?
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miamix707
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:49 am

Haiti is a tiny country.. it shouldn't be that difficult to formulate a plan and help this country get back on it's feet.

Good question Captaink, I too wondered the same thing.. maybe they make an exception?
 
commavia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 56):
If there are so many security concerns why is AA flying there?

It's about as close to a license to print money as you can get in North American aviation. The U.S.-Haiti market is large, in a few markets like South Florida and to a less extent New York, and it is incredibly high-yielding, as there aren't too many people flying to Haiti who are using Orbitz to book their $139 round-trip fare. Just doesn't happen. Planes are packed, and with people paying very high fares to go home and visit relatives. In addition, AA in particular (due to the massive amount of life that the humongous A300s provide) clean up because people make shopping runs to the U.S. and bring tons of stuff back with them. It is not at all uncommon for a family of 6 or 7 to check-in at JFK with 2-3 pieces of luggage or jam-packed boxes - each - to check to go back to PAP with. They come to the U.S. to buy stuff like jeans and other clothing, household supplies, etc. in bulk because it is so much cheaper, and many times they go back and resell it in the islands.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 56):
Aren't they afraid of some calamity taking place?

Not really, because they take major precautions. Planes only fly in and then fly right back out - no aircraft remain in PAP overnight. Turn times are kept to a minimum, with most flights turning around and going back out in around 60-70 minutes. Same with crews: fly in, fly out, no staying. They never leave the airport.
 
Caymanair
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 53):
I have spent several days in Port-Au-Prince.... do much better in the world than we do now.

Wow. Iv'e never heard of Haiti having that effect on anybody.... although it's a good thing. I'm happy to hear someone thinking like you.

As I said, Iv'e been to Haiti several times and I'm currently working in the country. The first time I visited, there was serious risk of me just not returning because I loved it so much. Haiti is a very beautiful country....not completely barren as some posters have suggested. And there are some great experiences to be had there (vodou festivals, carnival, film festival). I don't think just anyone can go there, though, some can't handle that society.

I think only a certain number of airlines would be interested in serving PAP (AA, Air Caraibes, Copa, Air Jamaica, BW, AF, Spirit, Bahamasair) and maybe a home grown carrier. There is opportunity for service to that country, but most airlines won't risk serving the country until the airport is upgraded. They don't need the country to be completely stable or prosperous because tourism isn't necessary. VFR and business links with other cities is all that needs to be there for carriers to want to serve the city. Look at POS - no tourism, but built on business and VFR. Although POS and PAP can't really be compared, POS also has a terrible crime rate similar to Kingston.
 
Orion737
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:55 pm

Its nice to hear some positives in respect of Haiti. SN probably has security issues in Kinshasa and many other of its destinations but it doesnt stop them providing a vital service to these poor countries.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting Captaink (Reply 56):
If there are so many security concerns why is AA flying there? Aren't they afraid of some calamity taking place?

AA's operation in PAP is certainly an uncommon one...
First of all, as stated above, you just wouldn't imagine the amount of money they make out of that destination. There are up to 8 flights/day during the high season from MIA, JFK & FLL, packed to the brim of pax paying an overprice ticket due to the complete lack of any competition. That's not even mentioning that pretty much each of these pax will pay a hefty extra for the extra baggage.
The check in line for Haiti flights in MIA, JFK or FLL is not hard to spot, just look for the one that has moving mountains of bags and boxes that are higher than the people pushing them...

It's a certainty for everyone in Haiti (although on Anet I'll have to state it as a rumor) that AA keeps the local civil aviation administration 'happy' to enjoy their operating permit and prevent anyone else from getting one.

Whenever the country heats up (read: civil uprisings, outbursts of violence in the city or police/UN ops against the rebels), AA magically cancels all the flight from the day before. As a matter of fact, that's how some people can tell things are about to get hairy there... They get intel from high up there.

However, the final approach to the main runway still takes you a few hundred feet above the most dangerous part of the city, where even the police won't go and have no control whatsoever, and where armed gangs do just about what they want, which is mostly kidnapping rich people for money, but sometimes includes shooting a airplanes passing overhead... And yes, it's happened to AA a time or two (as well as to other operators there).

Whenever an AA aircraft takes off from PAP, an security vehicle drives along the taxiing aircraft all the way to the end of the runway to make sure no ones grabs on to the gear for a free ride to the US. (people would really do anything to get out of there)

AF has a minimal service between PAP and MIA 3x/week, mostly to fill up the A320 that comes from PTP.
Jetblue has finally started to fly there, as I understand, which might or might not answer the plea of so many Haitians for a better and cheaper service to the US.

They are just tired of being charged overpriced tickets for an abysmal level of service (and I mean being constantly yelled at by nasty FAs) on an 1&1/2 hour flight. And I can understand why, as it seems unfair that one of the poorest country of the world would be used by AA, the biggest airline in the world and an american institution, as a cash cow...

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 57):
it shouldn't be that difficult to formulate a plan and help this country get back on it's feet.

Some countries have tried, mostly France and then the US, mostly through political manipulation, just to make things worse. Now the UN is there, helping as they can, but not really achieving much.
The harsh reality is: there are no resources in Haiti, and no one cares...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Orion737
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:36 pm

I notice AA doesnt serve a meal on flights to PAP, even though its international. Im assuming AF does.
 
2175301
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:15 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 61):
Some countries have tried, mostly France and then the US, mostly through political manipulation, just to make things worse. Now the UN is there, helping as they can, but not really achieving much.
The harsh reality is: there are no resources in Haiti, and no one cares...

Actually the US once tried to infuse a bunch of cash and other resources. The problem was that virtually none of it got to the people it was intended to help.

The real harsh reality of Haiti is that all of the various "group" leaders and organizations will (from political leaders and organizations to gang leaders and crime organizations) will force you to work through them - and absorb almost all cash and other resources provided. Virtually none get to the level of helping people.

I have not gotten back into the mountains far - to the places that are beautiful - and not stripped like it is on rural areas near Port-Au-Prince (back in the mountains is where my friend does missionary work). My understanding is that the various missionary groups have had the best success - doing things like building schools, better water, and a few other simple things away from Port-Au-Prince. They do not focus on providing, or leaving, cash aid. Cash tends to disappear fast (for personal gain) - at all levels of society there.

What I do not personally understand - is that in other parts of the world most organized crime will in fact at least work with aid societies and get most of the resources to the people who need it (and in some areas of the world the crime organizations are better known for emergency disaster aid than the governments). In those areas the "crime organizations" want people to at least trust them to help (at least somewhat) so that they are more acceptable as part of the culture.

However, in Haiti - that doesn't work. The crime organizations will absorb virtually all of the resources for their own gain and don't care one bit about taking care other people. The political organizations do the same - at all levels.

The overall result is that plans that are based on providing the kinds of resources needed to really change the country - or address some situations do not work - except to enrich the local political leaders and crime lords.

I've been there a couple of times - and personally see no reason to go back. There are other places in the world where aid actually has a positive effect. There are a lot safer places to go that are stunningly beautiful; and finally due to health issues I'm not sure of doing such trips again (it would take a lot more planning - and likely packing much of my own food for the trip).

As stated above: I have thought hard on how to help Haiti to change their self induced cycle of poverty. I have no answers. However, I am very grateful for the lessons that Haiti taught me.
 
dispatchguy
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 47):
'm sure the crew is praying that nothing goes wrong and the plane goes tech there

Even if it does, unless the problem is one massive major problem like an engine no start, they'll ferry it out, either to SDQ or to the Mainland - neither AA crews, nor AA Eagle crews, overnite in Haiti.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
flymia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 61):
AF has a minimal service between PAP and MIA 3x/week, mostly to fill up the A320 that comes from PTP.
Jetblue has finally started to fly there, as I understand, which might or might not answer the plea of so many Haitians for a better and cheaper service to the US.

AF MIA-PAP service is going to be or now is daily since AF has two A320's based in the Caribbean now.
and I think you mean Spirit airlines,which flys FLL-PAP. I dont think B6 flys to PAP.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
MAH4546
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 61):
AF has a minimal service between PAP and MIA 3x/week,

Air France is now daily on MIA-PAP, finally. The only reason they had not been was because they only had one plane based in the Caribbean. Now that they have two, MIA-PAP can be daily.
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yyz717
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 61):
AA's operation in PAP is certainly an uncommon one...
First of all, as stated above, you just wouldn't imagine the amount of money they make out of that destination. There are up to 8 flights/day during the high season from MIA, JFK & FLL, packed to the brim of pax paying an overprice ticket due to the complete lack of any competition. That's not even mentioning that pretty much each of these pax will pay a hefty extra for the extra baggage.

While AA does not release profit figures on destinations or routes, it does indeed seem logical that they make a mint on PAP service.

The severe logistical and operational problems associated with starting and running PAP service no doubt keep other US carriers out of PAP.

It would be interesting to know if AA has had any serious security issues in PAP (above and beyond the norm), i.e. a maintenance issue forcing an overnight stay. etc.

2175301...very interesting commentary...thanks!
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SLCUT2777
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 62):
I notice AA doesnt serve a meal on flights to PAP, even though its international. Im assuming AF does.

MIA-PAP is a VERY short flight, not even 1.5 hours if even that. Not really enough time for meal service.
That all said, why isn't there very much service from the U.S. to the D.R.? JFK, EWR, ATL, FLL, MIA are it from the U.S. as I recall. Yet up in Canada, look at all the places even as far west as th YVR that have winter charter service to 2-3 airports in the D.R. Why has the D.R. been so much more appealing to Canadians or Europeans than to Americans?
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flymia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 68):
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 62):
I notice AA doesnt serve a meal on flights to PAP, even though its international. Im assuming AF does.

MIA-PAP is a VERY short flight, not even 1.5 hours if even that. Not really enough time for meal service.

Yes but AF does have full meal service on the MIA-PAP flight.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 69):
Yes but AF does have full meal service on the MIA-PAP flight.

AF likely carries more working f/a's than AA does, and that is just the service and/or policy difference between the two carriers.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
jetsetter629
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:24 am

Didn't USAirways fly there shortly from CLT or FLL when they had that big Caribbean expansion?
 
md90fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 68):
That all said, why isn't there very much service from the U.S. to the D.R.? JFK, EWR, ATL, FLL, MIA are it from the U.S. as I recall.

Stop lying. AA has in excess of over 30 flights to/from the DR.
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commavia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 70):
AF likely carries more working f/a's than AA does

I highly doubt that. I don't care how amazing AF's service is - I don't think its likely that they'd ever staff a 150-seat A320 with more FAs than 265-seat A300. If they did, they'd be nuts.
 
mirrodie
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 15):
It's my understanding that due to the security risk, the AA crews don't even get off the plane. It lands from the US and turns right around.

Great topic. I have not been there since I was 4 years old but I have often wondered how wild it is that AA must rape on that JFK-PAP route. Maybe 4 years ago I heard about a new JFK-PAP airline but I'm guessing AA killed knocked it off or it never took off.

Some do get off the plane. My neighbor is a Haitian FA on the route. She does visit relatives from time to time and thus leaves the airport.

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 45):
Port-au-Prince is very dangerous for tourists.

And for Haitians. Seriously. We know relatives of ours who have been ransomed there. One other relative was murdered last year, left 2 teens behind.

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 47):
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL837

AA's JFK flight must be Sat only . Notice the flight arrives @ 17:30 and departs @ 19:51. I'm sure the crew is praying that nothing goes wrong and the plane goes tech there

AFAIK its not just SAT only.


This is all very interesting discussion. It would be great if we could split this topic up into one about the original subject and the other about Haiti's problems. But our forum does not allow topic splitting as of this time.

Therefore, I ask we please revert back to topic. And please start a thread about Haiti in non-av if you like.

Thanks  Smile
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Francoflier
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 65):
since AF has two A320's based in the Caribbean now.
and I think you mean Spirit airlines,which flys FLL-PAP. I dont think B6 flys to PAP.



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 65):
Air France is now daily on MIA-PAP, finally. The only reason they had not been was because they only had one plane based in the Caribbean. Now that they have two, MIA-PAP can be daily.

Thanks for the update on AF guys, I didn't know their second A320 was there already. Good news.

And you're right, I meant to mention Spirit, not Jetblue... Sorry about that.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 63):
Actually the US once tried to infuse a bunch of cash and other resources.

Yes, I believe other countries and organizations as well, but sending money to these kind of countries is just a lost cause, unfortunately, as corruption is way too deeply rooted for it to have any positive effect. To try and change anything there would take a much deeper involvement, like having a strong, lasting 'influence' on the government and on how the aid money is spent, for a start. Still, it's rather hopeless I'm afraid, it'd take generations of going in the right direction to make things 'livable' there...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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United_fan
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:24 pm

Anyone else notice the derelict 727 in the one video? Poor thing...

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 74):
AFAIK its not just SAT only.

I saw this route Sunday,also.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 74):
This is all very interesting discussion. It would be great if we could split this topic up into one about the original subject and the other about Haiti's problems. But our forum does not allow topic splitting as of this time.

Therefore, I ask we please revert back to topic. And please start a thread about Haiti in non-av if you like.

I think Haiti's problems are the reason for the limited air service there.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
Orion737
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:51 pm

Why do US airlines shy away from 'difficult' destinations? SN braves Kinshasa and the like yet US carriers seem reluctant to fly to a destination such as this.
 
commavia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 77):
Why do US airlines shy away from 'difficult' destinations? SN braves Kinshasa and the like yet US carriers seem reluctant to fly to a destination such as this.

While I don't want to rehash the "discussion" I had some months back about the relative safety of U.S. carriers flying into certain places, I think that it is - respectfully - fair to say that there are just certain spots that are not safe for certain U.S. carriers to land.

Haiti is not one of them, largely because much of the unrest there is not related to, or directed at, the U.S., at least directly, and is much more focused on (understandable) internal strife. In that case, AA sending in a few A300s per day - all of which, as others have said, fly in, quickly spin around, and promptly fly out, is probably generally safe. (Not to mention the fact that for Port-au-Prince, like many places in the Caribbean, AA's service is in many ways a lifeline, as it is one of the only large and reliable means to get things in and out.)

I think the same could probably be said of your example of Brussels in Kinshasa. Much of the problems now occurring in central Africa - while largely caused by the European colonial legacy - are now more directed at internal problems than at any particular terrorist threat towards foreign airlines, least of which one - like SN - that provides a crucial link for Kinshasa to the outside world, and to Brussels, one of it's most important foreign markets given historic economic and cultural ties that are left over from the Belgian colonial era.

The same, however, could not be said for some other places in the world where U.S. airlines "shy away" from, as you say, "'difficult' destinations." I don't think you'll be seeing AA landing a big, shiny silver $150 million aircraft with the big, bold word 'American' painted on the side in, for example, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. any time soon. It just provides far, far too appetizing a target for those who would love nothing more than to, God forbid, blow up such a plane to make a (sick) statement. Likewise, I don't suspect you'd see El Al landing planes in Tehran, or JAL 747s touching down in Pyongyang, etc. In certain cases, it's just not feasible - either by law or by practical reality (i.e., real and reasonable safety and security concerns).
 
mirrodie
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 77):
Why do US airlines shy away from 'difficult' destinations?

Liability, I would think? It was mentioned already but I recall even as far back as June 2001, whilst on vaca to Australia, seeing signs at security areas in the USA staing that Port au Prince and an airport in Kuala Lampur were noted as being of questionable security.

As I said, I too often wondered why more airlines didn't fly to PAP. Its not surprising that more don't. But I find it surprising that no other carriers would have tried to break into the virtual monopoly that JFK-PAP has.

Those flights are usually booked. When my uncle last tried to non-rev on the flight, he was 56 on the standby list.
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Orion737
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:03 pm

It makes me have more admiration for SN who even in times of great instability and turmoil continued flights to Kinshasa, Kigali, Bujumbura etc. No way would a US airline have touched those destinations.
 
2175301
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 77):
Why do US airlines shy away from 'difficult' destinations? SN braves Kinshasa and the like yet US carriers seem reluctant to fly to a destination such as this.

Perhaps because of the "risk" versus the volume of traffic.

AA is taking a degree of risk - exposing their flight crew and planes to significant damage if a plane has to overnight due to technical or other difficulties. They can justify the risk based on the volume of traffic and the higher than normal fares.

With solid competition from multiple vendors there would not be that much more volume and the fares would be less. The income would probably not be sufficient to balance the risk of this (and other) difficult locations under that situation. Hence, many companies are willing to let AA have this location (but might have wished that they got there first).

It appears that AA and AF seem to be the two companies servicing Haiti. I doubt that AF rates are much lower either - as they are also looking for a fair compensation for the risk they take.

How many companies service Kinshasa, and what is the degree of risk, - or is that a location also with limited service.
 
commavia
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 79):
Liability, I would think?

Exactly. I doubt AA, for example, would like to contemplate their insurance bill with Lloyd's if they started flights to some of these 'high-risk' places.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 79):
Those flights are usually booked. When my uncle last tried to non-rev on the flight, he was 56 on the standby list.

That's nothing. I myself have witnessed flights leaving JFK around holiday periods for PAP, SDQ and SJU with a standby list that was approaching 200 names. It's stunning to see, but I've seen it.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 80):
No way would a US airline have touched those destinations.

Right you are about that. Not that there is anything wrong with either strategy. SN has determined that the risk/reward equation works for them, and thus their threshold for safety/security is higher. That is commonly the case with European airlines - think about the many stories we've heard about places all over the world where, just before turmoil erupts, the last plane off the runway at the local airport is BA, or AF, etc. For the U.S. carriers, the threshold is just higher - perhaps because of the higher risk associated with anything American in much of the world these days, for obvious reasons. In fact, outside of AA to PAP, I can't really think of that many examples of U.S. carriers flying their own metal to really unsafe/unstable/risky locales, except perhaps the CO/DL flights to TLV (but that's probably actually one of the safest places on earth!), DL to LOS, and maybe NW to MNL. I'm sure there are others I'm missing, but the point I'm making is that yes, you are right, you'll find much more flying to these 'high-risk' places by European airlines, on average, than American ones.
 
luv2fly
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 80):
It makes me have more admiration for SN who even in times of great instability and turmoil continued flights to Kinshasa, Kigali, Bujumbura etc. No way would a US airline have touched those destinations.

OK before you nominate SN for Sainthood ask yourself this, does the market even exists for a carrier from the USA to serve these destinations in the first place. If your going to compare at least be fair about it.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Orion737
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:30 pm

SN is admired throughout Africa and has been seen as their only lifeline for years. Those cabin crew and flight crew working for SN dont scare easily.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 34):

What? No armed gangs shooting up the airport?  Wink

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 42):
There is a relatively large Haitian population in Orlando as well.

Growing constantly and moving up from the Miami area. I went to HS with a Haitian guy. Nice guy...strange family when I met them once...huge cultural differences. Might add that the Hatian gang violence has come to Orlando as well recently.
- CitrusCritter
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Viscount724
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 83):
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 80):
It makes me have more admiration for SN who even in times of great instability and turmoil continued flights to Kinshasa, Kigali, Bujumbura etc. No way would a US airline have touched those destinations.

OK before you nominate SN for Sainthood ask yourself this, does the market even exists for a carrier from the USA to serve these destinations in the first place. If your going to compare at least be fair about it.

Pan Am served Kinshasa for many years.
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:57 pm

AA double caters JFK-PAP. they get the smallest meal you ever saw. Most flight attendants with AA will tell you they are the most humbeling people. They sit in their seats very quietly and are so pleasant, happy to get the meal they get. If you see this flight leave JFK in the AM...you almost want to cry, this is a society that is so depressed and war torn. Meantime, it's one of the best locations in the world geographically with serene beaches and beatiful scenery (less the depressed areas). I am sure some on this site have been to Labadee on Royal Car. Cruises. Its truly a great place.

I have flown a missionary mission on AA to PAP and it was an experience that makes me tear...I will never ever forget it. The flight attendants btw are not allowed to get off the plane..so in it's truest sense, it's a turn.
The fares are not high because of lack of competition...its the security involved and many many other factors.
 
AA767400
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 6):
I am sure other airlines are more then happy not to be serving this third world country.

Haiti is a gold mine even with the fees that go with operating there. MIA-PAP for AA is a big money maker, something that can't be done in the U.S. anymore. "Third world" flights are what make money, DL know this and is starting flight outside of the U.S..
"The low fares airline."
 
miaami
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 87):
The flight attendants btw are not allowed to get off the plane

Thats not true. Many crew members go to duty free or inside to use the company computers all the time. They don't leave the airport but they are allowed off the aircraft.
 
jimbobjoe
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 77):
Why do US airlines shy away from 'difficult' destinations?

I think if the money is right and they had the access, they would go. In its history, Pan Am served an amazing selection of difficult destinations.

Overall the money is probably not right (difficult destinations only bring in so much traffic, historical ties, as mentioned before, explain why SN can make Kinshasa work.) Someone in this thread suggested that AA has a special relationship with the Haitian government, which I can believe.

Interestingly, a thread on a Haitian community bulletin board had this to say...

"American Airlines is, had and will continue to treat us unfairly for years and God knows for how long. Based on a response from a reader, we cannot invite any competitive airlines because AA built the airport for us.

My mother and another reader assured me that Francois Duvalier constructed the airport in 1965. American Airlines has done some repairs to it; but did not build it from the ground."

Another person said:

"AA will always have the monopole in Haiti because they were the ones who funded the construction of our own airport. The only way to eliminate that monopole would be to pay them back and then only then can we invite the competition in."

That's the first time I heard of this concept. Can anyone add info to that, or are these people just confused?
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: US-Haiti, Why So Little Service?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 90):

Well considering NK is flying there, I'd say that's not accurate. I think it's already been well detailed in this thread that PAP is mostly O&D from South Florida and is an expensive and dangerous station. Between the limited market and the problems of operating in an unstable country, why would other airlines be scrambling to start it up? AA is clearly in the surperior position with MIA and FLL flights.
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