Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
Posts: 5356
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:33 am

I wanted to know why LX added the GRU-SCL leg, to its ZRH-GRU flight? As I recall, LX flew ZRH-GRU-EZE-GRU-ZRH but withdrew service to Buenos Aires, though a few years after the economic crisis. Why?

The only other route to deep South America that LX had was GIG. That route was axed in 2003 at a time when LX was in deep financial trouble.

So, my question is this...why SCL and not EZE?
 
AlitaliaMD11
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:19 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:47 am

I believe the added segment to SCL was in an agreement with Lufthansa. Basically Lufthansa dropped their flights to SCL and had Swiss operate the flights instead.
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:55 am

On March 26 2006 Lufthansa dropped SCL route replacing it with a Swiss flight from Zurich via Guarulhos. At his moment Swiss offers a daily service with an Airbus A340-300 and they have an excellent profits (including pax and cargo )on ZRH-GRU-SCL route.

According with the official information of air traffic and passenger/cargo movements provided by Junta Aeronáutica Civil (JAC Chile), Swiss has growth 75,2% during 2007 (Jan to Sept).
 
ANITIX87
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:15 am

How long is the GRU-SCL leg and does it affect the return from GRU to ZRH by much? Is the flight short enough that it allows a long enough turn-around in SCL and GRU for catering, cleaning, etc and then gets back to ZRH early enough to be used on another long-haul? Or does the GRU-SCL leg add enough time that another aircraft is needed?

I hope I'm wording my question correctly, but I can't think of another way to say it.

TIS
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:28 am

Lufthansa flew a daily FRA-GRU-GIG and FRA-EZE-SCL. They dropped FRA-EZE-SCL and GRU-GIG, consolidating their presence at GRU with two daily flights. Yields dropped, and with LX onboard, LH dropped SCL, LX moved its GRU-EZE to SCL.
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 3):
How long is the GRU-SCL leg

GRU-SCL 3 hrs 40 min aprox.
SCL-GRU 3 hrs aprox.
 
stylo777
Posts: 2869
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:16 am

LH had a mini-hub at GRU until end of March. The schedule of LH's FRA-GRU-(EZE) and LX's ZRH-GRU-(SCL) were perfectly coordinated that they moved ZRH pax ongoing to EZE easily on LH and FRA pax going to SCL on LX. But with the beginning of the Winterschedule LH removed the tag-on to EZE and fly there directly. Therefore ZRH pax to EZE must connect now via FRA and not GRU. This was a very high amount of passengers which are now missing on LX's flight to GRU. In my eyes the next best thing would be to reschedule the MUC-GRU and make a tag-on to GIG to continue the "mini-hub" at GRU. Sao Paolo is the heart of South America, but Rio d.J. is also a very significant destination.
 
ogre727
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:43 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 2):
According with the official information of air traffic and passenger/cargo movements provided by Junta Aeronáutica Civil (JAC Chile), Swiss has growth 75,2% during 2007 (Jan to Sept)

But wouldn't this be comparing apples and pears? I mean, last year was when Swiss started, right? therefore, 75% of growth against a year that was not even full does not say much.

Maybe I am wrong about this.
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 7):
But wouldn't this be comparing apples and pears? I mean, last year was when Swiss started, right? therefore, 75% of growth against a year that was not even full does not say much.

Not say much? I don't think so. When Swiss started SCL service they only offers 5 weekly flights vía GRU, then upgraded the route with 6 frequencies and on June introducing a daily service. So I consider that 75% of growth is a good indicator for nine months (considering only Jan 2007 to Sept 2007).
 
loalq
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:18 pm

I really would like to understand why LX/LH do not fly to GIG anymore, and why there are no known plans to go back to this route.

I often have to fly home to Brazil, and prefer to do so with Star Alliance (miles, you know...), but TAP is a terrible option...

Regards.
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Loalq (Reply 9):
I really would like to understand why LX/LH do not fly to GIG anymore, and why there are no known plans to go back to this route

I don't either. South America really is the only weak part in LH/LX's route network (besides oceania), and I don't know how long LX will maintain the tag-on flight to SCL for, now that LH gave up the scissor-hub strategy in GRU.

Quoting Loalq (Reply 9):
but TAP is a terrible option

uhoh, I know an a.netter who will jump on you for that  duck   rotfl 
 
stylo777
Posts: 2869
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 10):
uhoh, I know an a.netter who will jump on you for that

me too... hahahahahaha.... Big grin  Wink
are you still friends Sandro??? Big grin

back to the topic:

the GIG question will nobody understand... give up trying...  Smile

I presume LX will discontinue the SCL tag-on in the future or they add another South American destination (e.g. EZE, MVD, LIM) with the tag-on to SCL still remaining. in this case they would have two flights to SA, non-stop return to GRU and as above mentioned a second flight with two stops and final destination SCL.
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13725
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Loalq (Reply 9):
I really would like to understand why LX/LH do not fly to GIG anymore, and why there are no known plans to go back to this route.

Technically, LH does fly to GIG, although currently only once a year as a charterflight out of HAM with a 747, for people who want to spend new year's in Rio. Other than this yearly charterflight, I believe JJ isn't flying the route either, and RG's service is subpar compared to what LH, LX and JJ are offering. Maybe it's all about economics in the end that killed the route for LH, either there isn't enough demand to justify a flight to GIG or they simply don't have enough aircraft available, especially with their ongoing expansion in Asia and the new longhaul focus city in DUS.
 
LXA340
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 10):
I don't either. South America really is the only weak part in LH/LX's route network (besides oceania), and I don't know how long LX will maintain the tag-on flight to SCL for, now that LH gave up the scissor-hub strategy in GRU.

Possibly we will se a ZRH - GRU - GIG flight again in the future in case GRU - SCL will be dropped due to a lack of passengers?
 
stylo777
Posts: 2869
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 13):
Possibly we will se a ZRH - GRU - GIG flight again in the future in case GRU - SCL will be dropped due to a lack of passengers?

as long as we don't have any numbers we can't tell excatly. where are the LX insiders? tell us the numbers to SCL!  Smile
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 11):
are you still friends Sandro???

With him? Well..... NO! Big grin

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 14):
where are the LX insiders?

I'm not quite there yet, but im working on it Big grin
 
User avatar
HECA
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:35 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:05 pm

Does LX have full traffic rights on the GRU - SCL - GRU legs? Or does it only transport ongoing passengers who depart to/from ZRH?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting HECA (Reply 16):
Does LX have full traffic rights on the GRU - SCL - GRU legs? Or does it only transport ongoing passengers who depart to/from ZRH?

LX has 5th freedom local traffic rights. I'm sure the operation would be totally uneconomic otherwise.
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:57 am

I think the problem with GIG is that it is mainly a holiday destination and not business thus low yield.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:44 am

Good discussion !

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 6):
In my eyes the next best thing would be to reschedule the MUC-GRU and make a tag-on to GIG to continue the "mini-hub" at GRU. Sao Paolo is the heart of South America, but Rio d.J. is also a very significant destination.

With a one stop product LH/LX will not be able to offer a good product. There is no difference from AF services which offers 2x daily with early morning and night arrivals. Convenient to places like HAM, DUS, TXL, MUC and others.

Quoting Loalq (Reply 9):
I really would like to understand why LX/LH do not fly to GIG anymore, and why there are no known plans to go back to this route.

The never end question... it's just LH focus on São Paulo market that explains this.

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 14):
as long as we don't have any numbers we can't tell excatly. where are the LX insiders? tell us the numbers to SCL!

Yes, we have from Junta de Aeronautica Civil data
From January to June/07

SCL-ZRH - 8.136 pax
ZRH-SCL - 8.228 pax
SCL-GRU - 11.047 pax
GRU-SCL - 8.405 pax
SCL-GIG - 168 pax (*)
* don't ask me why, probably one day during PanAmerican Games or because of GRU closed.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 18):
I think the problem with GIG is that it is mainly a holiday destination and not business thus low yield.

ZRH, sorry not to agree with you but several airlines are very happy with their non-stop flights to GIG. AF is the best example with 82C every day. And Rio is not just a holiday destination, there is lots of business and just to be clear, the headquarters of the three biggest Brazilian Corporations: Petrobras, Cia Vale do Rio Doce and Telemar
Not so strong as São Paulo, yes it's a fact, but still a city with 12 million people, almost 85% of all Brazilian Oil production, 100% of Oil Market including the top destination for deep water research in the world, among other facts.
And oil industry is world known as a high-yield (very) one.

Felipe
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):

Well, thats nice, but I'm sure that if LH and LX would think that flying to GIG would be worthwile, they wouldn't hesitate to do so. They seem to generate more revenue on other routes and thus deploy their fleet on those routes rather than GIG.

[Edited 2007-11-06 17:49:00]
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
Well, thats nice, but I'm sure that if LH and LX would think that flying to GIG would be worthwile, they wouldn't hesitate to do so. They seem to generate more revenue on other routes and thus deploy their fleet on those routes rather than GIG.

Sandro, the same way AF, TP and some others make more money flying 2x or more to GIG as they seem to generate more revenue on such route. It's the market.

Also there is no huge Swiss investment in Rio as well as no strong ties, so i would never expect a LX flight (even a tag).

Felipe
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Also there is no huge Swiss investment in Rio as well as no strong ties, so i would never expect a LX flight (even a tag)

That's exactly what I was thinking, and I think it's what ZRH was refering to, because the thread is about LX (LH), he just wasn't that clear. There are a lot of destinations who generate more revenue for LX and LH than GIG.

Case closed

[Edited 2007-11-06 18:12:37]
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 22):
That's exactly what I was thinking, and I think it's what ZRH was refering to, because the thread is about LX (LH), he just wasn't that clear. There are a lot of destinations who generate more revenue for LX and LH than GIG.

Case closed

German investment in Rio is huge and increasing with Thyssen-Krupp. But it's a matter for another thread.

Case Closed !
 
SwissA330
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:23 am

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 10):
Quoting Loalq (Reply 9):
but TAP is a terrible option

uhoh, I know an a.netter who will jump on you for that

TWO!

I Like TAP, and would fly their ex-SR A330's anytime  Smile
 
loalq
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting SwissA330 (Reply 24):
I Like TAP, and would fly their ex-SR A330's anytime

Well, I respect that of course. But I still think that their "Top Executive" is the most expensive economy-class ticket on the market...
Their A330s are very good though.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Also there is no huge Swiss investment in Rio as well as no strong ties, so i would never expect a LX flight (even a tag).

In general, there are no huge Swiss investments in Brazil. But there are HUUUUGE Brazilian "investments" in Switzerland these days...  Wink
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3309
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: LX In Latin America

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Thread starter):
So, my question is this...why SCL and not EZE?

From the point of view of Star Alliance, they are currently operating LH FRA-EZE 5x weekly with 744.
Because EZE is not getting daily flights on LH, Star Alliance system shouldn't sustain additional operations given by LX.
This fact may justify the tag-on GRU-SCL instead GRU-EZE.


.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
believe the added segment to SCL was in an agreement with Lufthansa.

Yes, LX code-shares the entirely route with LH.
LX 97 LH5301 SCL-GRU-ZRH.
LX 96 LH5300 ZRH-GRU-SCL.



.

Quoting Loalq (Reply 9):
I really would like to understand why LX/LH do not fly to GIG anymore, and why there are no known plans to go back to this route.

Star Alliance by means of TP is currently participating in the market towards Europe as TP GIG-LIS and vice versa.
I am aware LIS is getting limited connection and frequencies as compared with FRA. However, the key European destinations are linked through LIS and reflected on TP network as well.



.

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 2):
Swiss offers a daily service with an Airbus A340-300 and they have an excellent profits (including pax and cargo )on ZRH-GRU-SCL route.
According with the official information of air traffic and passenger/cargo movements provided by Junta Aeronáutica Civil (JAC Chile), Swiss has growth 75,2% during 2007 (Jan to Sept).



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
From January to June/07

SCL-ZRH - 8.136 pax
ZRH-SCL - 8.228 pax
SCL-GRU - 11.047 pax
GRU-SCL - 8.405 pax

With respect to operations from SCL to Europe, Oneworld group is getting services given by LA and IB.
Moreover, AF as full Skyteam member has their slots to Europe.
I would also add A7 Air Comet concerning to SCL-MAD plus some limited connections once in MAD.
The participation of Star Alliance through LX seems slightly unappealing taken into account the layover in GRU on the way to Europe.
Based on all the information listed above, I wonder how healthy operations are occurring from Chile to ZRH on the daily LX SCL-GRU-ZRH.

Regards.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos