BA
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DEN Concourse C Expansion

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:17 pm

I was reading on the DEN website about how initially, the 23-gate commuter facility will be built unconnected to Concourse C and passengers will be transported between Concourse C and the commuter facility by bus until the 10 gate mainline expansion of the concourse is constructed between them.

My question is why is a 23-gate commuter facility being built on Concourse C? This is 10 gates bigger than the new facility they constructed for United Express on Concourse B.

Will these gates be used by Lynx Aviation and Great Lakes Airlines?

To me, it seems to make much more sense to build a commuter gate facility at Concourse A replacing the existing basic facility on the east end.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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Super80DFW
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Maybe Great Lake will move to C and Lynx will take Great Lake's gates in the A so there would be easy Frontier connections.
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DIA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:57 pm

Good thoughts.

I think it will only be Lynx on these gates...in the beginning...but they are building it for future build-out no matter who the express carrier(s) is/are.


***BTW, DIA/UA just gave the "go-ahead" to re-build the north wing of the east side of Concourse B. they will build it to replicate the south side.

***Another BTW, DIA is now beginning actual construction of the "walk-a-lators" or "moving walkways" in Concourse C.


Just thought you'd like to know.
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 2):

***BTW, DIA/UA just gave the "go-ahead" to re-build the north wing of the east side of Concourse B. they will build it to replicate the south side.

Excellent news! When was this announced? When will it be completed?

Quoting DIA (Reply 2):
***Another BTW, DIA is now beginning actual construction of the "walk-a-lators" or "moving walkways" in Concourse C.

Ah yes...the one concourse without the moving walkways (travelators) is finally getting them!
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Super80DFW
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 2):
DIA is now beginning actual construction of the "walk-a-lators" or "moving walkways" in Concourse C.

Concourse C isn't even that long.
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nosedive
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 4):

Concourse C isn't even that long.

The moving walkways will be needed when they add the new gates... why not plan for it?

When was the commuter gate extension announced?
 
dw9115
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:53 am

I love going through Denver every chance I get because they are proactive about there airport and look ahead and plan accordingly unlike so many airports that wait until when the time to build has come and gone and gone a little longer then finally do build but build it like it was still ten years ago when they first realized they needed to build and did not and the new building is busting at the seems.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 4):
Concourse C isn't even that long.

 checkmark  AS, NW, WN and CO occupy that concourse. I think AA too.

I recall reading that they were going to demolish the two hangars to pave the way for a D concourse. I figured that is what they were going to do for a commuter concourse, but to expand C?? How?
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 5):
When was the commuter gate extension announced?

Back in July:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_6496074

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
I figured that is what they were going to do for a commuter concourse, but to expand C?? How?

Being the smallest concourse, Concourse C is capable of the most expansion out of the three concourses.

They won't build Concourse D until Concourse A and C are expanded to the length of Concourse B. Even Concourse B can be expanded slightly. The original masterplan had shown expanding Concourse B expanded slightly in each direction if the regional jet gates on the east end were removed.

Of course, now that there is a good regional jet facility on the east end, future expansion of Concourse B would probably be done to the west only.
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nosedive
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
two hangars to pave the way for a D concourse

ummm that would be for Conc E. There is room for Conc D if/when it is built.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
but to expand C?? How?

Expand it east and west, perhaps?

The problem is, DEN will have too many pax for its buildings by the end of the decade. Better plan for it.
 
flyf15
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:05 am

Each concourse in DEN is designed to be able to be lengthened on each end to allow for a total of 80 gates per concourse.

They should really just bite the bullet and do this with A or C... no more bandaids, small expansions, etc... they have such a gate crunch that they should just really build out one of the concourses with the present and future in mind.

Seems to me like the ideal solution would be

Concourse A: Frontier and International
Demolish the shed-like regional facility... give A completely to Frontier aside from international flights requiring customs processing. They essentially have most of it right now anyways. It might be a few more gates than they need currently but I'm sure within a few years with the extra Airbuses, Q400s, and E-jets coming, they could easily fill it. In the future, build it out at each end as needed.

Concourse B: United and partners
Expand to the west as needed for mainline growth, expand to the east as needed for regional growth

Concourse C: All others
Expand fully in one direction (such as to not block further expansion on that end by the commuter facility) and build commuter facility on the end. Expand just like B with one end growing for mainline and one end growing for commuters.

If the 3 concourses were purely mainline gates... they'd be able to be expanded to 240 gates. Thats going to be enough for decades to come... and probably much cheaper than building an entirely different concourse.
 
BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:36 am

I completely agree Flyf15...

I really don't see the practicality in building Concourse D anytime soon.

In addition to focusing on expanding the existing three concourses, DEN needs to do something about the terminal which is starting to get very congested.

I know they want to expand the terminal to the south but I'm not exactly sure when they are planning to do this.
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:07 pm

By the way, what ever happened to Frontier's plans to secure two gates on Concourse C? Which two gates were they planning to lease?
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roseflyer
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
CO occupy that concourse.

When did CO move from A to C?
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
When did CO move from A to C?

They didn't.
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ScottB
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 10):
Concourse A: Frontier and International
Demolish the shed-like regional facility... give A completely to Frontier aside from international flights requiring customs processing.

Just one problem: CO doesn't want to move from Concourse A, and Frontier's decision to put heavy maintenance at COS complicates matters since they were leasing most of CO's hangar at DEN. I don't see CO giving up the gates it leases on Concourse A at this point unless DIA lets them out of their lease on the hangar.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 10):
Each concourse in DEN is designed to be able to be lengthened on each end to allow for a total of 80 gates per concourse.

Which, of course, is why the midpoint of each concourse is at Gate 40, and no concourse has single-digit-numbered gates yet.

Quoting BA (Thread starter):
My question is why is a 23-gate commuter facility being built on Concourse C? This is 10 gates bigger than the new facility they constructed for United Express on Concourse B.

I don't quite get that either, unless they are essentially trying to avoid building regional gates that would more or less be expressly for Frontier (if the facility were built on Concourse A) without a long-term lease commitment. Otherwise I do not see the point, given that the likely largest future user of Concourse C does not use regional aircraft and will not for the foreseeable future. I suppose one advantage of the facility being bus-compatible is that passengers could be bussed from any of the three concourses to facilitate connections.
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
unless they are essentially trying to avoid building regional gates that would more or less be expressly for Frontier (if the facility were built on Concourse A)

According to various SEC filings and press articles, Frontier and DIA are in discussion about a regional terminal as an extension of A.

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stburke
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:48 pm

I was under the impression that Great Lakes will use the new gates at C which would leave the north part of the commuter section at A clear for Lynx. However it still boggles me why an airline that code shares with United and Frontier would move to concourse C instead of building the new commuter concourse on the west side of B or A.
Does CO still own some of the international gates?
 
frontierflyer
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:53 pm

CO not moving to C was a big mustake. F9 might have taken over the hanger if CO moved to C not to mention prevented WN from moving in. Now they are stuck with paying for a empty hanger. Is the presidents club worth it? I think that was the big issue with CO.
 
roseflyer
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 18):
CO not moving to C was a big mustake. F9 might have taken over the hanger if CO moved to C not to mention prevented WN from moving in. Now they are stuck with paying for a empty hanger.

I thought that CO did do maintenance on 737s at that hangar. A maintanance facility does not have to be at a hub. Many airlines have maintenance away from hubs. AA is a good example with their Tulsa facility.
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ScottB
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 18):
CO not moving to C was a big mustake. F9 might have taken over the hanger if CO moved to C not to mention prevented WN from moving in. Now they are stuck with paying for a empty hanger.

Perhaps, but Frontier may not get CO's gates as a result, and clearly Frontier sees a far greater impact from WN at DEN than CO ever will.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 19):
I thought that CO did do maintenance on 737s at that hangar.

I believe so too, but as far as I'm aware, they only use a small fraction of the total space. That's why they were renting out much of or all of the rest to Frontier.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
According to various SEC filings and press articles, Frontier and DIA are in discussion about a regional terminal as an extension of A.

This makes sense given the startup of Lynx. I just doubt it will happen without a long-term lease.
 
Super80DFW
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:58 pm

I think it should go like this;

Concourse A: All non Denver hub airlines and internationals, except Air Canada, UA, and F9.

Concourse B: All United and Air Canada.

Concourse C: All Frontier, Lynx, Alaska, Horizon.

That what it should be. Frontier should have all of their gates together next to each other like UA.
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mariner
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
This makes sense given the startup of Lynx. I just doubt it will happen without a long-term lease.

Why would you think Frontier would not sign a long term lease?

As to mainline gates, Frontier told DIA in April that they need three more, soon-ish. I have no idea how DIA will satisfy that requirement.

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ytib
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 21):
I think it should go like this;

Concourse A: All non Denver hub airlines and internationals, except Air Canada, UA, and F9.

Concourse B: All United and Air Canada.

Concourse C: All Frontier, Lynx, Alaska, Horizon.

That what it should be. Frontier should have all of their gates together next to each other like UA.

With the exception of the two gates on Concourse C F9 has all of their gates together on A. Thus your solution above would cause more problems moving practically every airline and also without build out done on C still give gate issues to F9. Keep in mind they do have a code share with Great Lakes as well which is on A and the majority of international arrivals in DEN forcing the movement of planes from the international gates on A back to C. I don't see anyone winning in this solution except UA.
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AirframeAS
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting BA (Reply 14):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
When did CO move from A to C?

They didn't.

Oh, I thought they did. I saw a CO aircraft parked at C in May (Either a 73G or a 739). It was probably a RON aircraft, now that I think about it since the CO hangar is just across the way.... Hmmm....
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ScottB
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Why would you think Frontier would not sign a long term lease?

As to mainline gates, Frontier told DIA in April that they need three more, soon-ish. I have no idea how DIA will satisfy that requirement.

Primarily the negotiating tactics used to get United's Concourse A gates. Yes, they were effective. But they also make me wonder if their plan is to try to get CO's gates in a similar way.

Barring that, if they want three mainline gates, they'll have to make do with any available gates on Concourse C. And unless they commit to leases that would back a Concourse A expansion, they're going to have to convince CO to move and/or use the new gates to be built out on C.
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 25):
Yes, they were effective.

I think that is the key, isn't it? The new built gates were going to cost more, and Mr. Potter wouldn't pay for that as long as they were the United gates that the airline didn't really need.

Back when the ten gate expansion was announced by DIA (the one that didn't happen) everyone was thrilled - except Mr. Potter, who was very downbeat because of the cost of it.

Still - when money has to be spent, it has to be spent, as at COS. Although I doubt we'll ever know the full story behind that. Did DIA believe (as most of the rest of us did) that ultimately Frontier would cleave to DEN? Should DIA have tried a little harder? Could they?

The (A) regional terminal is a little different. With the arrival of Lynx (and the increased E170 fleet), it becomes a necessity. Although I assume Mr. Menke - who seems to be even more parsimonious than Mr. Potter - will drive a hard bargain.

As to the Continental C gates - I simply don't know. I am told Continental is loathe to move, which I fully understand.

Then again, if Frontier's business keeps booming, as it presently is, they're going to be squeezed soon, so something may have to give, bearing in mind that mainline aircraft arrivals slow considerably from now.

I have heard conflicting stories about Frontier taking the C gates - (i) yes, they will and (ii) no, they won't - and I imagine - but it is only a guess - that Southwest might jump in first, or offer more money, or something. I'm sure you'd know more about that than I.

Most people seem to think that Southwest will announce more DEN flights this week, and they must be getting close to capacity with the gates they have?

It's all a long way over my pay scale, and what was true three months ago may not be true now. I am still looking for clues as to what Mr. Menke'e attitude to all this is.

mariner
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:37 am

Continental Airlines moving from Concourse A to Concourse C is a bit complicated considering they have their Presidents Club lounge on the mezzanine level of Concourse A.

They could theoretically sell this lounge to Lufthansa which would convert it to a Senator Lounge. Seeing how Lufthansa now has two flights to Denver, having their own lounge may be justified, especially since British Airways which has only one flight has a Terraces Lounge in the mezzanine level of Concourse A right next to Continental's Presidents Club lounge.

Continental could then build a Presidents Club lounge in Concourse C, perhaps a smaller one than the one they currently have in Concourse A.

Quoting Ytib (Reply 23):
With the exception of the two gates on Concourse C F9 has all of their gates together on A.

Frontier doesn't have two gates on Concourse C. It looks like these plans never materialized as they were supposed to lease them starting in September and they didn't.

I don't even think there are two free gates left on Concourse C, are there? The airline gates map on the DEN website shows C33 as being unoccupied, but checking the flight arrivals, it's being used by Delta Air Lines.
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DIA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
Most people seem to think that Southwest will announce more DEN flights this week,

I understood this to be the case as well. I don't remember the source, but this statement was quoted from a WN exec. commenting on Southwest's Denver growth...and what is to come...very shortly.

Quoting BA (Reply 27):
The airline gates map on the DEN website shows C33 as being unoccupied

From what I understand, DIA is currently building an "end-unit to Concourse C (I believe this is C33). This will actually be two gates: C33A and C33B...they will not have airbridges. **I might have my gate # wrong...but they are building it currently.

I will be departing from Concourse C (on Southwest) this November 19th...so I can finally check out some of these topics of discussion first-hand.

Quoting BA (Reply 3):
Quoting DIA (Reply 2):

***BTW, DIA/UA just gave the "go-ahead" to re-build the north wing of the east side of Concourse B. they will build it to replicate the south side.

Excellent news! When was this announced? When will it be completed?

I just heard this was a "go" this week from one of my neighborhood residents (a DIA marketing exec).
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 28):
From what I understand, DIA is currently building an "end-unit to Concourse C (I believe this is C33). This will actually be two gates: C33A and C33B...they will not have airbridges. **I might have my gate # wrong...but they are building it currently.

What is the purpose of these two gates? For regional aircraft?

I am fairly certain C33 is an already existing gate.
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apodino
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting BA (Reply 27):
Continental could then build a Presidents Club lounge in Concourse C, perhaps a smaller one than the one they currently have in Concourse A.

Do either of the other SkyTeam airlines have a lounge in DEN? (CRC or WorldClub) If so, this shouldn't be an issue because then you can have a shared lounge, like you have in ORD, and like the one in BOS will soon become. They might even be able to fetch a bit of money for the PC in DEN and would actually make money off the move.
 
DIA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 29):
What is the purpose of these two gates? For regional aircraft?

Same question I had. I said, "What are they for, Big Sky airlines?" He told me he wasn't sure, but he heard they could fit 737-size a/c on these two new non-airbridge stalls.

FYI: Just another tad of info I remembered. The latest on the international news indocates LH is seriously sizing-up their gate on Concourse A. Seems they have already gotton cost-estimates for a conversion to fit a double-bridge in order to serve the A380. They have also scouted out where all ground components will have to be located in order to recieve the A380. So, I think it is starting to look more promising that we'll get an A380. What a site that would be...
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BA
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RE: DEN Concourse C Expansion

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:39 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 30):
Do either of the other SkyTeam airlines have a lounge in DEN? (CRC or WorldClub) If so, this shouldn't be an issue because then you can have a shared lounge, like you have in ORD, and like the one in BOS will soon become. They might even be able to fetch a bit of money for the PC in DEN and would actually make money off the move.

Yes, Delta Air Lines has its Crown Room Club.

Quoting DIA (Reply 31):
Same question I had. I said, "What are they for, Big Sky airlines?" He told me he wasn't sure, but he heard they could fit 737-size a/c on these two new non-airbridge stalls.

I assume this extension will be on the west side since the east side will soon see construction of the 10 mainline gates and the regional facility.

Quoting DIA (Reply 31):
FYI: Just another tad of info I remembered. The latest on the international news indocates LH is seriously sizing-up their gate on Concourse A. Seems they have already gotton cost-estimates for a conversion to fit a double-bridge in order to serve the A380. They have also scouted out where all ground components will have to be located in order to recieve the A380. So, I think it is starting to look more promising that we'll get an A380. What a site that would be...

Sounds exciting!
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