ComeAndGo
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 35):
It's funny how just because EK, BA, SQ, etc. won't order the 748i, that it is dead in the water and won't get any more orders. Let's not forget that there are still a lot of 744 customers out there that don't need to order a VLA anytime soon. By the time they do order, the A380 will be in service a few years and they can see if they really need a much larger aircraft flying around empty seats.

Yes,
But … don't forget that pretty much all those same airlines are upgrading their first and business classes to flat bed standard and will need considerable more real estate on their aircraft.
 
speedbird2263
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting NA (Reply 32):
The 747 is the only really "characterful", different design left in a mass of boring twinjets. Its an unusual looking, yet very elegant and well balanced looking airliner, just perfect. The 767, 777, 787, A330, A300, A350 and so on, they all look almost the same. Distinguishable only for experts. If not for the 747 (and now the A380, for its impressive size, not for beauty) I wouldn�t be so much of an aviation enthusiast as I am now.

Good Point. It's good when one tries to be objective about the subject. It has been said before though, and continues to be said, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I wont forget the very first pic that was posted on A-net of the A380 "fully assembled":

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Goldmann Air Spotters


The immediate response by most enthusiasts was how ugly the big girl was, I remember thinking that most of those that commented on how aesthetic/beautiful she was were doing so and she wasn't even fully assembled yet and painted at that. However as time rolled on some on here became new converts with the first roll-out pics of her fully painted and assembled:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © French Frogs Aviation Pictures


There were however those that remained and still remain adamant that she is far from representative of "beauty"/"beautiful". As for me personally and my humble opinion, the big girl is in a class all by her self, just as the 747 was when she first rolled out back in the 60's. Now what folks have become to distinguish the 747 with is her impressive wing span, overall size and most notably her humped forehead if you will. Those particular design features have endeared her to many over the years and will continue for years to come:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Shaun Grist


However now that the A380 is finally in service and has also generated its fair share of Media attention compared to the 747 when it rolled out, albeit in somewhat of a more negative light with regards to the delays, she's now able to do her time and make a name for herself. There are the younger ones of today's generation, those of the following generations and of course those of previous generations that will come to love and respect the A380 in her own light. She may not have the particular aesthetic appeal as the 747, however she has her own thing going; the now totally new double rows of windows, the sight of triple jet-bridges docked at her port-side and her gull wings along with the impressive span are just some of her design features that I forsee will stamp her as definately being the SuperJumbo when seen on the Tarmac or in the sky where she belongs.

[Edited 2007-11-06 18:57:03]
Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Speedbird2263 (Reply 51):
The immediate response by most enthusiasts was how ugly the big girl was, I remember thinking that most of those that commented on how aesthetic/beautiful she was were doing so and she wasn't even fully assembled yet and painted at that. However as time rolled on some on here became new converts with the first roll-out pics of her fully painted and assembled:


View Large View Medium

Photo ? French Frogs Aviation Pictures

Wow! That is the best view I have seen yet of the cockpit section! It actually looks pretty cool in this picture. The best features of the aircraft however are those beautiful gull shaped wings and the size of the engines in proportion to the rest of the aircraft.
 
iwok
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 50):
Yes,But … don't forget that pretty much all those same airlines are upgrading their first and business classes to flat bed standard and will need considerable more real estate on their aircraft.

One thing that has me worried for aviation in general is the now close to $100/barrel oil price. If things continue like this we might find a lot of ship cancellations and much lower order rates in the not too distant future. If that happens, premium services will become less and less on the planes, similar to what happened after 9/11, and we might find ourselves in an intercontinental travel world dominated by LCC.

Its really astounding that with these record oil prices, the aviation business is still booming. The boom is somewhat helped by the low dollar and Asian economic boom, but I don't see how this can continue for much longer; especially with the risk if hyper inflation. The main issue is that the Asian boom and low dollar a closely linked due to currency controls in Asia, which is fine for now. But any hiccup along the way; such as the US not being able to finance debt or Asian ecomies no longer being able to support currentcy controls could cause the whole house of cards to come down.

Interesting days ahead indeed.


iwok
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting Speedbird2263 (Reply 51):
There are the younger ones of today's generation, those of the following generations and of course those of previous generations that will come to love and respect the A380 in her own light.

I think the A380 is the first aircraft that got a full multi media launch.

An endless stream of videos of every stage / visit / test / happening / press event was immediately available via corporate websites, new sites / agencies and most of all YouTube. Many of the thousands of professional / amateur / in between snapshots getting hundreds of thousands millions of views..

Boeing and Airbus learned from that. Expect boeing to Flush the web with a wide variation of attractive videos on the 787 to drown less favourable ones..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 45):
it seems as if most are going to be calling the A380 "Super Jumbo"..which is fitting also

I don't understand why you do think that replacing the 'Jumbo' with a 'Super Jumbo' is ok, but at the same time you see replacing the 'Queen' with 'New Queen' an 'obvious flagrant attempt at replacing an icon'.

For most of the people in the world the 747 is the Jumbo Jet - Queen of the Skies is something used by aviation enthusiasts... Also I recall a certain huge bomber being called with the same title.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:17 am

It seems that most news stories have dubbed the 380, "Super Jumbo". I think that's the name that will stick with the public.
What the...?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 53):
One thing that has me worried for aviation in general is the now close to $100/barrel oil price. If things continue like this we might find a lot of ship cancellations and much lower order rates in the not too distant future. If that happens, premium services will become less and less on the planes, similar to what happened after 9/11, and we might find ourselves in an intercontinental travel world dominated by LCC.

...according to some, we might see oil at $150/barrel..though I think at that point countries will be forced to create alternative energy sources...

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 55):

I don't understand why you do think that replacing the 'Jumbo' with a 'Super Jumbo' is ok, but at the same time you see replacing the 'Queen' with 'New Queen' an 'obvious flagrant attempt at replacing an icon'.



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 56):
It seems that most news stories have dubbed the 380, "Super Jumbo". I think that's the name that will stick with the public.

.. checkmark ..its perception...

To be honest, its a bit trivial.. yes 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Carls
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 40):
"The 747-8 Intercontinental is more than 10 percent lighter per seat than the A380, and consumes 10 percent less fuel per passenger. That translates into a trip-cost reduction of 19 percent and a seat-mile cost reduction of more than 3 percent compared to the A380."

http://boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_background.html

And: "The 747-8 Intercontinental is the only jetliner in the 400- to 500-seat market, stretched 5.6 m (18.3 ft) from the 747-400 to provide 467 seats in a three-class configuration and a 14,815-km (8,000-nmi) range. Using 787-technology engines, the airplane will be quieter, produce lower emissions, and achieve better fuel economy than any competing jetliner. Compared to the 747-400, the 747-8 Intercontinental will provide nearly equivalent trip costs and 10 percent lower seat-mile costs, plus 28 percent greater cargo volume. Operating economics will offer a significant improvement over the A380. The 747-8 is more than 11 percent lighter per seat than the A380 and will consume 10 percent less fuel per passenger than the 555-seat airplane. That translates into a trip-cost reduction of 19 percent and a seat-mile cost reduction of more than 3 percent, compared to the A380."

You should send this information to SQ, LH, Air France, British Airways, Qantas etc. It is very important because seems they did not took this in consideration. How stupid this people is, they just ignore all this info you are giving us. They should not be in their position, they do not know their business.
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 40):
"The 747-8 Intercontinental is more than 10 percent lighter per seat than the A380, and consumes 10 percent less fuel per passenger. That translates into a trip-cost reduction of 19 percent and a seat-mile cost reduction of more than 3 percent compared to the A380."

Is that based on a 525 seat Airbus 380-800 versus a 469 seat Boeing 747-8i?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
baroque
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
If we must give the A380 a royal title, I respectfully submit "Empress" for consideration.

I presume you are remembering that India had an Empress for quite a long time, and so are proposing that India now needs another Empress.  duck 

Quoting Iwok (Reply 53):
One thing that has me worried for aviation in general is the now close to $100/barrel oil price.

Yes, well on 7 Nov Tapis crude was indeed close to $100 a barrel, but close from the opposite side to the one I think you are assuming!! And the jetfuel for the "Empress" will be coming mostly from Tapis crude. So if the sky was going to fall in, it should have happened in Singapore on 7 Nov. No reports in the news, mind you it has been raining in E Australia so perhaps that qualifies for the sky falling in. Being serious, I suspect that demand for oil is much less price sensitive than has commonly been assumed. There is probably a number at which there will be more sensitivity, but it seems that 100 might not be that number!  Confused
 
swallow
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:10 pm

The 748F is due for delivery in 08 and the 748i in 2010. The 787 test flight delay means six months less flight test data for the GEnx1B if 748 schedules remain unchanged. GE and Boeing may need to generate some additional data for the GEnx-2B for the 784 since it uses bleed air. It remains to be seen if 787 delays have a knock on effect on 748 EIS. The priority at Boeing will probably be ramping up 787 production, not to mention 777F deliveries.
The grass is greener where you water it
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:37 pm

Is there a point of no return for the 747-8i?

Point of no return : moment when it gets more expensive to stop then to proceed.

Famous examples of worst case programs (Concorde, VFW 614, Dassault Mercure).

Everyone wants to stay away from 20 aircraft projects.

Big enough to require a full blown production / support organization, too few to make any profit.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:45 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 62):

No matter how you cut it, 20 747's is at least 3 billions dollars. (I thought it was 24). The Freighter version is paying for most of the R&D. The 'i' is basically along for the ride. Sure, they'd love to have hundreds of orders but 24 still means a huge chunk of cash.

And let's say they decide they can live without the orders; they give those orders to the competition. That really doesn't make any sense to me.
What the...?
 
WINGS
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Swallow (Reply 61):
The 748F is due for delivery in 08 and the 748i in 2010.

748F - late 2009
748i - mid 2010


Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 60):
I presume you are remembering that India had an Empress for quite a long time, and so are proposing that India now needs another Empress.  duck 

While it was hardly all peaches and cream, Victoria wasn't a total disaster for India.

I imagine the A388 will not be, either.  Smile

Quoting Keesje (Reply 62):
Is there a point of no return for the 747-8i? (A) moment when it gets more expensive to stop then to proceed.

I would hazard a guess that Boeing has already passed that point and is now committed to build it if LH wants it. Even if the 24+ frames don't cover the costs, they'll still help and the freighter will ensure a solidly positive program RoI.

I'm almost willing to go out on a limb and say Boeing won't sell any more. I really think that the 77W is the plane for "now", and the 77W/A3510/787HGW/A388 are the planes for "then".
 
columba
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:51 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 62):
Is there a point of no return for the 747-8i?

Point of no return : moment when it gets more expensive to stop then to proceed.

Famous examples of worst case programs (Concorde, VFW 614, Dassault Mercure).

Everyone wants to stay away from 20 aircraft projects.

Don´t make the 747-8I worse as it is. It will definitely see the one or other customer besides when you look at the 747-8 don´t forget that there is a freighter version as well which is selling not too bad so it is not a 20 aircraft project.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 66):
Don´t make the 747-8I worse as it is

...Look at the source... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
khobar
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:41 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 42):

The point being made was that previously Boeing was very quick to compare the 748i to the A380. This latest announcement doesn't do that. It's mildly interesting.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q4/071106c_nr.html

I don't think Boeing updates the product pages very often.

http://boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_background.html - revision date of 9/20/2007 so it is pretty recent.

I understand the point some are trying to make, but it's weak at best. Rather amusing, actually, since Boeing has previously stated the intent of the 748i was to fill the gap between 777 and A380 and still provides the numbers anyone can use for comparison to anything they like.

Now if Boeing had gone back and revised all their marketing info to redact comparison to the A380...
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:45 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 63):
No matter how you cut it, 20 747's is at least 3 billions dollars. (I thought it was 24).

25, to be precise. 20 LH, and 5 748BBJs, and no doubt those customers going for the BBJ aren't as hell-bent on getting the lowest price compared to normal airlines  Wink .
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 62):
Point of no return : moment when it gets more expensive to stop then to proceed.

Famous examples of worst case programs (Concorde, VFW 614, Dassault Mercure).

A380?  Wink
 
nema
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
The following is interesting: In that press statement, they don't compare it to the A380 any more, unlike in previous press releases. IMO this just shows the aircraft complement each other, rather than compete in the same market as many people still think

I agree but you cant tell the 'one siders' on here that. A true enthusiast will accomodate all but on here there are many that just wont accept Airbus at any level it seems.
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 62):
Big enough to require a full blown production / support organization, too few to make any profit.

How about $20 Billion for under 200 orders?

You know here is something to consider. Let us say that Airbus sells each A380 for $200 Million. After all costs to build, let us say that they achieve 10% profit. That makes $20 Million for each aircraft. How many do you need to sell to make up $ 20 Billion in development cost?
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 62):
Big enough to require a full blown production / support organization, too few to make any profit.

The sales they've already made are profitable.

NS
 
don81603
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 21):
Kings are usually fatter and uglier.

All it needs are a rhinestone jumpsuit, sideburns, and cheesy shades, and the image will be complete.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:33 pm

ok Boeing and you folks say there is no problem & everything is going smoothly

costs are already recovered & every single on time 747-8i will perform as predicted

nothing to worry about then

 eyebrow 

you´re all real diehards are you?

 Wink

I expect some fireworks not to far away..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 72):
You know here is something to consider. Let us say that Airbus sells each A380 for $200 Million. After all costs to build, let us say that they achieve 10% profit. That makes $20 Million for each aircraft. How many do you need to sell to make up $ 20 Billion in development cost?

The rough actual build cost for an A380-800 is around $100 million. To my knowledge, even considering discounts and compensation, no airline will pay less then that to Airbus for an A380-800.

Now, Airbus has said that some of the initial frames will be sold "below cost", but that is because all of the costs associated with the delay is being "front-loaded" on to those frames to just get it off the books now so the remaining deliveries can apply their profits to the program costs and RoI calculations.
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:40 pm

Don't think I saw anything on this:

Will the 748i have a higher humidity cabin like the 787?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 72):
You know here is something to consider. Let us say that Airbus sells each A380 for $200 Million. After all costs to build, let us say that they achieve 10% profit. That makes $20 Million for each aircraft. How many do you need to sell to make up $ 20 Billion in development cost?

It doesn't work like that. Costs include the development amortized over each plane. The program doesn't need 1000 sales to pay back the d costs even if it is over budget and late. It will take about 500 frames. It was designed to pay it back by 300 frames, targeted at 270-275 frames.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
It doesn't work like that. Costs include the development amortized over each plane. The program doesn't need 1000 sales to pay back the d costs even if it is over budget and late. It will take about 500 frames. It was designed to pay it back by 300 frames, targeted at 270-275 frames.

So Keesje's contention regarding the 747-8 and its inability to make money back for Boeing applies to the A380 and Airbus as well, correct?  Wink
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:47 pm

They're completely different animals.

The 747-8i is an incremental upgrade of a fully amortized project. The changes are small, a few bil, and my guess is that its going to be paid back with the number of sales already made.

It does work the same way, but we're not talking about $20 billion. In some ways, the price of 747-400s being shipped out right now includes some cost of the 747-8.

NS
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 80):
So Keesje's contention regarding the 747-8 and its inability to make money back for Boeing applies to the A380 and Airbus as well, correct?

The 747-8i is a different aircraft. It has a different unique upperdeck, fuselage, certification, cabin interior, airco, waste, galley, evacuation, crew rest, IFE and fuselage/window certification.

Saying it´s costs are automatically included in the 8F have nothing to do with reality. Arguing the 20 LH machine already paid for themselves is a fairytale. Say the 747-8i unique developments cost $1.5 billion. spread out over the 20 LH machines .. what price did LH pay eager Boeing for their 747-8i´s, do the math.. nonsense.

Let me say it more precise: if Boeing feels it won´t get a second substantial 747-8i order within a certain time frame they will IMO pull the plug, in close consultation with Lufthansa. They are in the business to make money & resourses are sparse.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 82):
do the math.. nonsense.

Have you ever done the math on the A380?  Wink
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 82):
It has a different unique upperdeck, fuselage, certification, cabin interior, airco, waste, galley, evacuation, crew rest, IFE and fuselage/window certification.

Again, I reiterate my previous statement except a little more politely. Nothing you say about anything is ever correct.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 82):
Saying it´s costs are automatically included in the 8F have nothing to do with reality. Arguing the 20 LH machine already paid for themselves is a fairytale.

Great. You keep yapping. I know better, as do some other people. I have done the math, yes.

NS
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:59 pm

Henry VIII was dashing and handsome when younger, before becoming fat in his later years, the equivalent of the A346 gradually bloating into the A380 as it gets older  Smile

Isn't the 747 in danger of becoming (using a British analogy) The Queen Mother...much loved, but usurped by a younger Monarch...

In reality, each airline will make it's own judgement call, based on its on needs, and what offer is made to them. LH chose the 748i, but then they also chose the A346, a plane which has been heavily outsold by the 77W (and effectively replaced by the A3510), so they aren't always trend setters...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:20 pm

Radical statement from a.nets always angry young man.

I think Boeing will respond, the airlines have voted with their checkbooks.

After the A380 production gets running, the cargo market will get a steady stream of used 747-400´s, doing $70-80mill including a heavy check.

That will impact the demand / margin on the 747-8F. Thats is why Boeing plans to sell 2/3 of their 747-8s in the passenger market. No doubt they are in the process of rewriting the business case / media story.

A single product lean -8F line will become increasingly tempting for Boeing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Boeing_747-8F_Large.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 83):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 82):
do the math.. nonsense.

Have you ever done the math on the A380?

Two wrongs dont make a right. Im not throwing guesses at the break even point for the A380 because we already know what it is - between 400 and 500 frames,

If we assume a development cost of $1.5b for the Intercontental, and assume that Lufthansa and 5 others got a 45% launch discount off list, then we are left trying cover $1,500,000,000 in development costs with total revenue of $3,850,000,000. That implys that Boeing are building these things at $94,000,000 a piece and taking a profit from it. Possible? Maybe. Maybe not.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 86):
After the A380 production gets running, the cargo market will get a steady stream of used 747-400´s, doing $70-80mill including a heavy check.

Is that because the A380 has "NOT" been available to purchase for the last seven (7) years?  Yeah sure

Boeing has sold 70+ freighters already and they just froze the design.
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 88):
Boeing has sold 70+ freighters already and they just froze the design.

All of which are going to replace ............ [drum roll] ........... their existing fleets of 747-400's.

Neither the 747-400F or the 747-8i have won an order from an operator that does not fly its predocessor. The 747-8 has no real competitor in the VLA heavy cargo market and never has.

Its like comparing the A340-600 and the A340-300 - Newer engines, aerodynamic improvements and technology improvements, but still inferior to the 777-300ER.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 87):
That implys that Boeing are building these things at $94,000,000 a piece and taking a profit from it. Possible? Maybe. Maybe not.

If Airbus can build an A380 for around $100 million, I would like to think Boeing could build a 747-8I for less...  scratchchin 

As such, I think Boeing might just make it even with 25 planes. And if they don't, it just means the overall RoI is not as great as it could be, but still solid.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 78):

Will the 748i have a higher humidity cabin like the 787?

Unlikely. The primarily enabler for higher cabin humidity is a corrosion-proof fuselage. 748i, although it might change some alloys, will still be an aluminum fuselage.

Tom.
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well so much for the "news" that the 747-8I is behind schedule as some people on this foru mare hoping for:

In addition to the closure of the -400F line, engineering resources have been diverted away from the 747-8 program to assist with both the 787 and 777F programs. This diversion has been confirmed by sources inside the 747 program and partially accounts for the change in the schedule as well.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...-pushes-back-7478f-rollo.html#more

The writing was on the wall. Only some folks are unwilling to read.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 92):
The writing was on the wall. Only some folks are unwilling to read.

Excuse me while I take another sip of the Kool-Aide, but this strikes me as something that is more likely to help production then hinder it since it should allow production to commence and proceed more smoothly, which is why Boeing says they will still meet their delivery date even with the later start.

It looks to me that they are accelerating deliveries into customer's hands - who themselves have to agree to take the planes ahead of schedule - in order to "clear the decks" and prepare for production of the 747-8F, which will likely require some changes in the tooling and jigs and assembly stations that they use for the 747-400 since the 747-8 incorporates a number of physical changes in both the fuselage and the wings.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:46 pm

Looks like Vought might be the weak-link in both the 787 and 747-8I programs:

Quote:
The new leader of Boeing's troubled 787 Dreamliner program has moved quickly to shuffle top management and reorganize responsibilities.

Among other changes, new 787 Vice President Pat Shanahan appointed an executive specifically to oversee one of the major supplier partners, Vought, which builds the airplane's two rearmost fuselage sections in Charleston, S.C.

The appointment is a clear indication that Vought is a weak link in the Dreamliner supply chain.

Strode will give "special attention to 787 recovery and production ramp-up," the internal announcement said, though his oversight also extends to Vought's development work on the new jumbo-jet derivative, the 747-8.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2004003350_boeing09.html
 
PC12Fan
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Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 91):

Unless I missed something in this article, the delays are being caused by other programs and not within the -8 program itself.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
EI321
Posts: 5028
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 28):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 25):
That's sorta stupid, don't you think? They're the largest buyer of both airframers' flagship products.

EK has no 744's and has yet to buy the 748.

EK have the 747-400F in their fleet already and have the 747-8F on order.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
If we must give the A380 a royal title, I respectfully submit "Empress" for consideration.

I've been suggesting that for a while. But there are certain people who are more interested in creating a fight than actually choosing a cool new nickname for the big lady.

King of the Skies is fine, though planes are usually girls I guess. But Empress sounds very regal and classy.

How about the soprano of the skies, although it may be too quiet to desere that ttitle  Wink

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 35):
It's funny how just because EK, BA, SQ, etc. won't order the 748i, that it is dead in the water and won't get any more orders.

But they were the airlines mooted as being the most likely customers, and are the only ones that I know have seriously evaluated the type apart from china airlines whom have yet to decide.

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