EI321
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Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:35 pm

Quote:
The proposed all-cargo version of the Airbus A350 XWB will offer Boeing MD-11F levels of payload and volume, but development is unlikely to begin until work on all the passenger models is completed.

Airbus plans to use the A350-900 variant as the basis for the freighter, which will follow the passenger versions of the twinjet that are due to enter service in 2013 (-900), 2014 (-800) and 2015 (-1000). A -900R extended-range version is also planned.

Airbus says that as now proposed, the A350-900F will have a similar payload and volume to the MD-11F, and a range of 9,250km (5,000nm).


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...volume-says-european-airframe.html

I wonder what GE will think of this. They dont like competing with their own Boeing product on the 777 and have even pulled the CF6 from the A330F programme. The A350F would be a serious blow to the 777F.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting EI321 (Thread starter):
The A350F would be a serious blow to the 777F.

It's 9-10 years off. I think GE will be okay with it, because they are pretty aware by now that the new build life for the 777 program is going to come to a close (for the most part) in about 2015.

GE still gets to sell parts and engines to support all the 777 longer range series for many years to come.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting EI321 (Thread starter):
The A350F would be a serious blow to the 777F.

How?

777F Payload 229,000 lbs  checkmark 
777F Total volume 23,051 cu ft  checkmark 
777F range 4,885nm

A350-900F (MD-11F) Payload 202,100 lbs
A350-900F (MD-11F) Total volume 21,096 cu ft
A350-900F range 5,000nm  checkmark 


So the A350-900F can carry 26,900 lbs less cargo for only 115 more miles. How is that a serious blow to the 777F?  confused 
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ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
So the A350-900F can carry 26,900 lbs less cargo for only 115 more miles. How is that a serious blow to the 777F?

Efficiency. But considering the large market for conversion freighters of all ages, not sure that efficiency is the most important factor. All else being equal though (including price and long term costs), the more efficient plane should win the RFP.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
How is that a serious blow to the 777F?

It won't be an issue till it's available, but the A350F would be significantly cheaper to operate (as indeed would be Boeing's likely response, a 787F).

While neither would offer quite the volume and payload of the 777F, they would be close enough that their superior operating costs will be a bigger factor in their favour.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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LAXintl
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:12 pm

I dont think GE is much worried. After all are not going to be offered on the A330F either.

Want a GE powered freighter -- 763F, 748F or 777F
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
swallow
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting EI321 (Thread starter):
and have even pulled the CF6 from the A330F programme.

Why did they withdraw the CF6 from the 330F? The CF6 powered 330 is a mature platform and no new tweaks were required.
The grass is greener where you water it
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
So the A350-900F can carry 26,900 lbs less cargo for only 115 more miles. How is that a serious blow to the 777F?

I'm guessing the characteristic you missed that might be relevant to that question is MTOW..

777F = 350t (IIRC)
A350F = 295t (IIRC)

Regards
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:09 pm

I am confident Boeing will sell plenty of 777Fs over the next 15-20 years which will be plenty of GE90 engines for GE to sell.

I do not expect either are deeply worried about an A350-900F - assuming, of course, the A350-900F launches within the next decade or period.
 
T773ER
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:24 pm

A majority of cargo planes today are of the second hand variety. So I don't see the A350F blowing away anything for many many years.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:27 pm

However, FX would have taken new build M11Fs until hell froze. This plane is targeting that market. The 77F is supremely expensive.

NS
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
The 77F is supremely expensive.

And the A350F will be cheap?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
However, FX would have taken new build M11Fs until hell froze. This plane is targeting that market. The 77F is supremely expensive.

Boeing can always discount more to maintain sales...
 
olle
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:45 pm

>Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
>The 77F is supremely expensive.

>And the A350F will be cheap?

Something tells me that Airbus is looking to make the 777 family absolete.  Wink

The cost of 777 will go down and profit will be much less for B.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
And the A350F will be cheap?

Relatively? Yeah, I think so. The manufacturing methods behind both the 787 and A350 should make them cost much, much less.

I was really just talking about why the 77F hasn't taken off... as its price declines, it will start to make bigger inroads.

NS
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
I was really just talking about why the 77F hasn't taken off

Its not selling badly by any means, but the 747-8F and A330F have stole its thunder somewhat.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:05 am

The 777F has a major leap a head of the A350F. The 777 has proven world reliability, economics and flexibility. Airbus has to once again figure everything out by themselves from scratch.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
So the A350-900F can carry 26,900 lbs less cargo for only 115 more miles. How is that a serious blow to the 777F?

The A359 will do it using ~12% less fuel per ton-mile. The A359 will even undercut what will soon be the most efficient freighter in the sky, the 748F-- a crown it will enjoy until about 2016.

Due to yet another forum bug, I can't post my fuel burn chart-- look under my profile, the 8th chart down the list (entitled freighter fuel burn) gives a graphical comparison of new-build freighters. This chart is based on analysis using the Breguet range equation with published specs.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:07 am

I enjoy some of the things you have in your profile, such as this chart.

NS
 
karan69
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 17):
The A359 will do it using ~12% less fuel per ton-mile. The A359 will even undercut what will soon be the most efficient freighter in the sky, the 748F-- a crown it will enjoy until about 2016.

Thanks for that interesting bit of information and as always your charts are very useful.

I have one question would a A389 XWB Freighter outdo every possible freighter in terms of proportionate performance.

Karan
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:18 am

If you extrapolate linearly? Yes.

Is that reality? Maybe.

The A380-900F XWB will have a lot of capability problems in terms of payload density. These charts are great to display fuel burn and capability. It would be interesting to see a 3d graphic that put actual capability in an axis as opposed to the size of the dot.

NS
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
I enjoy some of the things you have in your profile, such as this chart.

Thanks. Numbers (even if computed only to first order) have many interesting stories to tell.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
would a A389 XWB Freighter outdo every possible freighter in terms of proportionate performance

It would probably match the CFRP twin-engine freighters, but it all depends on what you assume. The A388F 'XWB' as shown in the chart reflects a simple drop in the engine SFC, with all other specs remaining the same as the A388F. A better option than an A389F 'XWB' would be to beef up the A388F's maximum payload, even at the cost of some extra weight. The range would probably drop to < 5000 nm, but the payload could increase by a significantly larger factor than the OEW... improving not only fuel burn, but also payload density. I believe this is the best freighter you could get out of the A380 airframe.

But the A359F and 787F will still beat it.
 
karan69
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 21):

Thank you so much for that invaluable explanation

Karan
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:04 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
I was really just talking about why the 77F hasn't taken off

Its not selling badly by any means, but the 747-8F and A330F have stole its thunder somewhat.

For all new build "Fs", the market is a lot smaller than those airplanes passenger version sisters. The B-77-200LRF is selling just fine. It is the only freighter in it's class for capacity and range. Neither the B-747-8F, nor the A-330-200F have stolen sales from the B-777-200LRF, as they are both in different capacities and range combinations. Additionally, the B-747F has different features no other commercial "F" offers.

Currently, there is no new build "F" that offers the range the B-777-200LRF offers. That is one reason FedEx bought the airplane, and will, most likely order more.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 17):
The A359 will do it using ~12% less fuel per ton-mile. The A359 will even undercut what will soon be the most efficient freighter in the sky, the 748F-- a crown it will enjoy until about 2016.

How do we know the A-350-900F will offer a 12% reduction in fuel comsumption? The design isn't defined yet. There cannot be any final numbers (except from the sales people) until the engineers are finished with their work.  banghead 

Don't believe a used car salesman (but, it was only flown on Sundays by a little old lady to church). I don't care if the salesman works for Airbus, or Boeing, don't believe them. Believe the engineering numbers.
 
columba
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting EI321 (Thread starter):
Airbus says that as now proposed, the A350-900F will have a similar payload and volume to the MD-11F, and a range of 9,250km (5,000nm).

Possible customers that need to replace their MD 11s around 2015 Fedex, UPS, LH Cargo..........
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 24):
Possible customers that need to replace their MD 11s around 2015 Fedex, UPS, LH Cargo..........

FX is starting with the 77F now, so I tend to think they will take 777BCFs.

5X could go either way.

LH would be a solid A350F customer since I expect them to order the A350 passenger family.
 
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moo
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
FX is starting with the 77F now, so I tend to think they will take 777BCFs.

FX was linked not that long ago to the, currently non existent, A330-300F.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
FX is starting with the 77F now, so I tend to think they will take 777BCFs.

5X could go either way.

LH would be a solid A350F customer since I expect them to order the A350 passenger family.

I would think Boeing would make UPS a very good deal on new build B-777-200LRFs, just to keep them in the Boeing family (new build B-747-400Fs and B-767-300ERFs), as well as keep them away from the A-350-900F and A-330-200F. So, 5X has a better chance of going Boeing, than Airbus, at least right now. Additionally, 5X may not ever need the A-330F (because of the B-767F) or A-350F (because of the MD-11F/CF and possibly the B-777F) as they also have several MD-11CFs, and B-747-400BCFs in the works along with the new builds.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:07 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 26):
FX was linked not that long ago to the, currently non existent, A330-300F.

Well an A330-300F would certainly have the volume and range would be good enough to replace the MD-10 and MD-11 fleet for CONUS operations.

However, I am not sure Airbus would want to offer it lest it cannibalize both A332F and A359F sales.

And A333 passenger resale values remain relatively strong, so a conversion market is likely not economical as of yet. The A343 is a much more likely prospect for passenger to freighter conversions due to a falling resale market, but that might be a wash in terms of overall economics to keeping the MD-10 and MD-11 fleet...
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
How do we know the A-350-900F will offer a 12% reduction in fuel comsumption? The design isn't defined yet

We know that it will offer a ~12% reduction in fuel consumption simply by applying the laws of physics to the performance parameters published so far by Airbus (across all the A350 models.)

Will the specs change? Possibly. But they won't change by much, or Airbus will be in a world of financial hurt for their existing 200 orders, which doubtless came with performance guarantees. So we can say with very high confidence that the fuel burn of the A359F will undercut the 777F and 748F by a significant margin, even if a few points short of 12%.

Remember, freezing the spec is not the same thing as freezing the design. The former happens many months prior to the latter, and it better be frozen if you're signing up to contractual performance guarantees.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
How do we know the A-350-900F will offer a 12% reduction in fuel consumption? The design isn't defined yet. There cannot be any final numbers (except from the sales people) until the engineers are finished with their work.

Why worry now about an airplane that won't be in service for another 9 years? Boeing could decide to go with a freighter version, and have the engineering ability to make it work, of the 787 by then. The 777 family is doing fine and looks set to continue on that course for a number of years. The 748F looks to do likewise. I have to wonder why Airbus would make an announcement regarding the A350F when its development is still well into the future. Just some sort of effort to show they'e looking to the future? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on the present and near future (production and development of current products over the next 2 to 5 years, for example)?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 16):
Airbus has to once again figure everything out by themselves from scratch.

Heh, you really do believe that everything in this industry is just sudden realization that came from a bunch of guesswork, don't you? I've been noticing a trend in your posts.

Its SCIENCE. Not MAGIC.

NS
 
7cubed
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting Olle (Reply 13):
The cost of 777 will go down and profit will be much less for B.

I believe AB is in the hot seat as far as profits go. They're still ass deep in dept on the a380 and now the m400 is weighing on their profits. Factor in exchange rates...I'd rather be Boeing. The A380 payoff likely isn't going to happen anytime soon as neither is the m400. There's also the R&D for the xwb - which is now considerably more than what was initially envisioned. Boeing has always stated they will not sacrifice profits for market share. Looking at both's balance sheets it appears as though B's methodology is proving to be more profitable.
joe
 
airbazar
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
Efficiency. But considering the large market for conversion freighters of all ages, not sure that efficiency is the most important factor.

But that's about to change. 5 years ago oil was at $20/barrel. In 15 years we'll be paying $200+/barrel. You will not see many older generation aircraft around, even on cargo carriers.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33):
But that's about to change. 5 years ago oil was at $20/barrel. In 15 years we'll be paying $200+/barrel. You will not see many older generation aircraft around, even on cargo carriers.

Cargo is less price-elastic then passengers.  Smile

Also, cargo doesn't care much how it gets somewhere as long as it gets their on schedule. Since long-haul travel trades payload weight for fuel weight, a fleet of 744BCFs at 115t payload doing two 3000nm hops might end up being more efficient then an A359 hauling 75t 6000nm because you likely use less fuel and carry more stuff.
 
columba
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RE: Airbus Reveals Details Of A350F

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
I would think Boeing would make UPS a very good deal on new build B-777-200LRFs, just to keep them in the Boeing family (new build B-747-400Fs and B-767-300ERFs), as well as keep them away from the A-350-900F and A-330-200F. So, 5X has a better chance of going Boeing, than Airbus, at least right now. Additionally, 5X may not ever need the A-330F (because of the B-767F) or A-350F (because of the MD-11F/CF and possibly the B-777F) as they also have several MD-11CFs, and B-747-400BCFs in the works along with the new builds.

UPS and Fedex have big enough fleets to have both Airbus and Boeing, I don´t think they want to become dependant on one manufacturer.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong

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