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BAKJet
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IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:19 pm

After reading the IND-AMS possibility on NW it got me thinking-
-Is it even possoble that AF(CDG) or BA(LHR) would start service to IND

BTW-Did ATA ever have service from IND-Eurpoe when IND was their hub/base?
 
Boston92
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:20 pm

Yes it's possible. Plausible? Not so much.
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:22 pm

I mean't plausible/ going to happen within 5-10 years. I know its physically possible.
 
Boston92
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 2):
I mean't plausible/ going to happen within 5-10 years.

And I answered that question in my first post. Maybe reduced frequency, but I don't see you getting daily service.
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:29 pm

And I answered that question in my first post. Maybe reduced frequency, but I don't see you getting daily service

oh, sorry Boston92
 
Boston92
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 4):
oh, sorry Boston92

Nothing to be sorry about mate! And oh, Welcome to A.net!
 
luv2fly
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:35 pm

Not going to happen anytime soon. Connections from IND via numerous airports in the USA, direct flights from CVG which is a drive away.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
roseflyer
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:36 pm

I don't think any of the European airlines have much interest in IND. It isn't a particularly large market.

*There are 10 metro areas larger than Indianapolis that do not have nonstop service to Europe.

*In general IND is underserved based on my own regression analysis. There are roughly 4 million passengers per year flying out of IND per year, yet my calculations show that there should be 4.8 million based on regressions. If the city can't sustain the expected amount of overall travel, then I can't imagine it getting European service.

*PDX just got service to Europe from NW and it is a market that is 75% larger than IND based on passenger traffic.

However, if NW is doing well out of IND, then it is likely to be one of the next destinations to get nonstop service to AMS.

[Edited 2007-11-08 13:39:06]
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fxramper
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:40 pm

FX 0034 STN 11/09/2007 04:30L (09:30Z) 11/09/2007 17:00L (17:00Z) MD-11
FX 5081 CDG 11/09/2007 04:28L (09:28Z) 11/09/2007 18:17L (17:17Z) MD-11

Just throwing that out there.

 airplane 
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:41 pm

However, if NW is doing well out of IND, then it is likely to be one of the next destinations to get nonstop service to AMS.


I hope   

[Edited 2007-11-08 13:46:42]
 
roseflyer
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 8):
FX 0034 STN 11/09/2007 04:30L (09:30Z) 11/09/2007 17:00L (17:00Z) MD-11
FX 5081 CDG 11/09/2007 04:28L (09:28Z) 11/09/2007 18:17L (17:17Z) MD-11

Just throwing that out there.

Haha. If only I could put myself in a box, I could easily get a lot of places nonstop. For the number of times I've flown SEA-ORD-IND, I would almost prefer the choice of three daily nonstop flights, although a purple and white box wouldn't be that comfortable.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:51 pm

Nothing is going to happen until the new terminal opens. The one we have now can't even handle our current load. You want to be able to make an impression on arriving guests. I don't think the international arrivals barn gets the job done. Open skies will help as well as the new 787. RDU has service as does BDL. I don't see why eventually IND won't. The area is growing very fast and the focus is more and more going to point to point service. I may have grandchildren before we ever see something like IND-DUS (true point to point) but I think its likely we'll see IND to a European hub. I think for starters it will take some cargo in the belly to help pay for the route and maybe a local grant.

Rising fuel costs are going to help promote this. The higher the fuel prices the more profitable point to point service becomes. This is just in terms of miles flown. Eliminating that extra connection saves time for travelers. It can save you a few hours.

It will happen. Will it be sooner rather than later? Who know. We do have one thing going for us. NW has a big operation here and if they don't start the service they face the possibility of an European carrier coming in first and taking that market away from them. First guy to start it wins. The rest are left out in the cold. While passenger numbers from the commerce department show IND can support IND to a European hub flight there is no way we could support two.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:53 pm

While passenger numbers from the commerce department show IND can support IND to a European hub flight there is no way we could support two.

I never thought that IND could get at this point in time.

[Edited 2007-11-08 14:53:59]
 
Mir
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
although a purple and white box wouldn't be that comfortable.

With airline service these days, you're probably not that much worse off. And at least you get there when they say you're going to get there.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MAH4546
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Open skies will help as well as the new 787.

787s will not help secondary markets in the U.S. get new trans-Atlantic flights. What they will help is primary markets in the U.S. get service to more secondary-European markets (i.e. Seattle-Moscow; Miami-Manchester) thanks to the cost savings and range, the former of which will allow dense, but low-yielding trans-Atlantic routes (both holiday and VFR) to become more viable. The aircraft is still too large for a market like IND, MKE, CMH, etc.
a.
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Open skies will help as well as the new 787.

787s will not help secondary markets in the U.S. get new trans-Atlantic flights. What they will help is primary markets in the U.S. get service to more secondary-European markets (i.e. Seattle-Moscow; Miami-Manchester) thanks to the cost savings and range, the former of which will allow dense, but low-yielding trans-Atlantic routes (both holiday and VFR) to become more viable. The aircraft is still too large for a market like IND, MKE, CMH, etc.


Boeing does, however advertise for going on routes that otherwise wouldn't be viable like ones to smaller cities because of the less operating cost even a half-full plane won't be bad.

[Edited 2007-11-08 17:07:12]

[Edited 2007-11-08 17:07:31]

[Edited 2007-11-08 17:11:09]
 
7e72004
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:18 am

I agree with Indy. It will NOT happen while the current terminal is open...but rather after the new one is in operation. I think once IND gets the service, it will not be daily..more like an "Allegiant" type schedule until more can be supported. THe metro/suburban area around IND is growin fast and i think with companies relocating to the IND region, the demand will eventually come. True, you have the flights out of CVG...but at a much higher cost...Delta has too much of a stranglehold there.
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TZTriStar500
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 18):
I agree with Indy. It will NOT happen while the current terminal is open...but rather after the new one is in operation. I think once IND gets the service, it will not be daily..more like an "Allegiant" type schedule until more can be supported. THe metro/suburban area around IND is growin fast and i think with companies relocating to the IND region, the demand will eventually come. True, you have the flights out of CVG...but at a much higher cost...Delta has too much of a stranglehold there.

its not going to happen if ever, new terminal or not
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7e72004
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:33 am

It will happen...maybe not next year but chances are within the next 5-7 years.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 19):
its not going to happen if ever, new terminal or not

I disagree with that. With the way the market is growing there is no reason it wouldn't happen eventually. Times are changing.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 20):
It will happen...maybe not next year but chances are within the next 5-7 years.



Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
I disagree with that. With the way the market is growing there is no reason it wouldn't happen eventually. Times are changing.

not as much as you think....you guys are dreaming a little too much and also assuming that all future growth will be point-to-point. Hubs are never going away.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
7e72004
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:37 am

I would also add that the A concourse at IND is constantly overcrowded. I have been there at different times of the day and different times of the week, and it is easy to tell that NW does a very good job at IND. The demand is there and i think we will get a better idea of how things are going to turn out come November 2008.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:45 am

In 2005 Indiana ranked 25th in the nation in overseas visitors at 152,000. This ranked ahead of Minnesota which only had 108,000 overseas visitors.

Source: Office of Travel and Tourism Industries
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:49 am

In 2005 Indiana ranked 25th in the nation in overseas visitors at 152,000. This ranked ahead of Minnesota which only had 108,000 overseas visitors.

Source: Office of Travel and Tourism Industries


Yet Minnesota get the service because NW has the hub MSP.
 
IADCA
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
787s will not help secondary markets in the U.S. get new trans-Atlantic flights. What they will help is primary markets in the U.S. get service to more secondary-European markets (i.e. Seattle-Moscow; Miami-Manchester) thanks to the cost savings and range, the former of which will allow dense, but low-yielding trans-Atlantic routes (both holiday and VFR) to become more viable. The aircraft is still too large for a market like IND, MKE, CMH, etc.

I think MAH is more or less right on here. In the transatlantic market, 787-8s will fill a similar role as 762s and 763s, only they will do it more efficiently. The range extension will only become a factor in a very few instances. Basically, there are two ways the 787 could create new routes: places that a 767 can't reach and are too small for a 777 (already covered with 332s, etc), and places that a 767 can reach but the yields are too low to make it economically smart. Many of those places that can be reached with 767 but not profitably are now covered with 757s. The only places that might really have any chance of seeing any new service because of the 787 are therefore ones that are A) too far for a 757, B) too small for a 767 but might be economical with something 25-30% more efficient.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Open skies will help as well

Open Skies isn't nearly as much of a help to secondary airports in the US as many seem to think. If there were a market tfor IND-CDG, for example, someone would be doing it already. Open Skies isn't going to magically triple the number of slots at CDG or make someone more willing to try the route. Open Skies seems to be causing European carriers to fly from other carriers' hubs to major US hubs. It's not like LH is going to start CDG-IND just because they now can, for example. The carriers for whom such a route could be profitable (US carriers, AF) already had the rights before Open Skies, and they didn't exercise them. Open Skies doesn't change that. US carriers could already fly from secondary US cities to anywhere in Europe if they wanted (except LHR, of course), and at least one carrier from Europe could serve any city in the US from any given European hub. In short, Open Skies doesn't open up any new routes for US cities, save possible LHRs.
 
luv2fly
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 26):
Open Skies isn't nearly as much of a help to secondary airports in the US as many seem to think. If there were a market tfor IND-CDG, for example, someone would be doing it already. Open Skies isn't going to magically triple the number of slots at CDG or make someone more willing to try the route.

Best analogy EVER!

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 25):
In 2005 Indiana ranked 25th in the nation in overseas visitors at 152,000. This ranked ahead of Minnesota which only had 108,000 overseas visitors.

Source: Office of Travel and Tourism Industries


Yet Minnesota get the service because NW has the hub MSP.

Yes as it cuts your risk in filling the plane by routing it via a hub and offering connections.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
LambertMan
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 19):

its not going to happen if ever, new terminal or not

Wow, that's a firm stance. I've moved back off my stance with regard to new transatlantic service in fringe markets. Isn't a whole Indianapolis better than a piece of Portland?

4 years ago would anyone have thought that Amsterdam, Frankfurt, and Tokyo would be offered out of Portland? Portland might be the exception to the rule, but its still relevant.

It -is- probably a long shot, but its not out of the question.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 28):
4 years ago would anyone have thought that Amsterdam, Frankfurt, and Tokyo would be offered out of Portland? Portland might be the exception to the rule, but its still relevant.

Who ever thought SLC would get something like a DL flight to CDG, and places such as PIT would have nothing. I don;t think you'll see KLM come in and offer IND-AMS (NW is a stronger likelihood as mentioned), but I think BA has bigger fish to fry. IND has too many international portals nearby in ORD, DTW and CVG.
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7e72004
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:21 am

Tristar...i think you are clearly in the minority so let's just leave it at that.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 29):
IND has too many international portals nearby in ORD, DTW and CVG.

Those portals don't matter. The idea is to avoid the double connection and the extra unnecessary flying. Otherwise why don't we just end all transatlantic service around the country and feed everyone into those 3 portals. It won't happen because it is a waste of money. What is the point of flying IND-DTW-AMS when you can just fly IND-AMS? Cut out that unnecessary connection. It will save passengers 2+ hours each direction. That includes extra travel time and the big international connection on the return trip. You fly home. You clear customs at home. And you go home. You don't have to recheck your bags and wait around for another flight. And you certainly weren't in a room with passengers from many other flights trying to clear customs. Much better for the passenger all around.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Boston92
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 30):
Tristar...i think you are clearly in the minority so let's just leave it at that.

As what Tristar said is opinion and has no factual evidence, nothing is really wrong with being the minority. This website would be pretty boring if everyone agreed, eh?

Also, you other people that are the "majority" are also expressing an opinion and have no factual evidence, so "let's just leave it at that".
 
Boston92
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
The idea is to avoid the double connection

Wait, we went from non-stop to double connections? I believe there is something in between.
 
RW170
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
Much better for the passenger all around.

Unfortunately the airlines aren't as concerned with what's better, more convenient, or more comfortable for the passenger as they are with what's profitable.
319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 33):
Wait, we went from non-stop to double connections? I believe there is something in between.

It works out nice for me because if I fly IND-AMS I can get picked up in AMS, take the train to where I'm going to get a connecting flight. What happens in AMS will happen no matter how I travel. The difference is whether I have to waste my time dealing with that extra stop in DTW. Not that I mind DTW. In fact I rather like the place. It is an unnecessary leg in my journey. Coming back from AMS means I have to have at least a 2 hour connection in DTW. It means I am in customs with a number of other flights. It means I have to claim my bags twice in my trip.

International arrivals in Europe is a breeze. Honestly I rarely even notice it. When my journey ends in FRA I rarely see a person when I arrive in the morning. Last couple of times to FRA the customs station was closed. When I went to CGN I didn't even see customs. Maybe they were closed too. You come to the U.S. and its a whole different ball game. If I could be one of 175 to 200 passengers clearing customs I'd be thrilled. It would likely be the only flight of the day coming through the inspection station. There might be another on Saturday when the CUN flight comes in. Overall it will be a breeze. So I clear customs and I go home. Thats it. No killing an hour or two waiting for a connecting flight.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:46 am

I agree with Indy.  Smile
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 36):
I agree with Indy. Smile

Out of curiosity... have you ever traveled out of the country?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
BAKJet
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:57 am

Out of curiosity... have you ever traveled out of the country?

Yes,and now I avoid connecting from domestic to International at LAX. It was a nightmare, security took two hours, plus collecting bags and checking in at Air NZ in total it two 3.5 hours of my 5 hour layover. I found Houston to be quite relaxing though, it is now my international connection airport of choice; but then again, I didn't change airlines.

BTW- Have you ever traveled out of the country Indy?

[Edited 2007-11-08 18:58:22]

[Edited 2007-11-08 18:59:21]

[Edited 2007-11-08 19:01:04]
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 35):
It works out nice for me because if I fly IND-AMS I can get picked up in AMS, take the train to where I'm going to get a connecting flight. What happens in AMS will happen no matter how I travel. The difference is whether I have to waste my time dealing with that extra stop in DTW. Not that I mind DTW. In fact I rather like the place. It is an unnecessary leg in my journey. Coming back from AMS means I have to have at least a 2 hour connection in DTW. It means I am in customs with a number of other flights. It means I have to claim my bags twice in my trip.

Hey...you have to claim your bags twice in one trip if you are an O&D passenger at ATL or CVG too, right?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 39):
Hey...you have to claim your bags twice in one trip if you are an O&D passenger at ATL or CVG too, right?

You only have to recheck your bag if you are catching a connecting flight. Otherwise you just leave.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
chase
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 17):
787s will not help secondary markets in the U.S. get new trans-Atlantic flights. What they will help is primary markets in the U.S. get service to more secondary-European markets (i.e. Seattle-Moscow; Miami-Manchester) thanks to the cost savings and range, the former of which will allow dense, but low-yielding trans-Atlantic routes (both holiday and VFR) to become more viable. The aircraft is still too large for a market like IND, MKE, CMH, etc.

I don't really get what you're saying here. Okay, today we have transatlantic flights going (primary city) to (primary city).
Seems like everyone is saying that the 787 will enable transatlantic flights going (primary city) to (secondary city).
Are you saying that that will only happen when (primary city) is on the left side of the pond and (secondary city) is on the right side? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Or are you saying that that will only happen when (primary city) is on the operating carrier's side of the pond and (secondary city) is on the other side? Or...?
 
OBSMGR
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
Those portals don't matter. The idea is to avoid the double connection and the extra unnecessary flying

A lot of assumptions being made here folks. The reality is that the IND market really isnt that large. Its not growing in as much as it's being shuffled from one carrier to another.

How do you figure that IND will make an AMS flight work when MEM (with all their conectivity) hasnt demonstrated they need more than that. Are IND and MEM equal in your mind from NW's perspective?

And for those of you talking about point to point and the need to eliminate connections, am I to assume that means you believe all the European travelers in IND (all 152,000 of them) are from AMS? What about the connection on the other end? If I am in IND and going to LON, isnt it better to have multiple choices to ORD, ATL, JFK, IAD, etc, where I can connect to multiple flights to LHR or LGW (or STN), as opposed to taking the lone IND-AMS flight and connecting there?
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 42):
The reality is that the IND market really isnt that large. Its not growing in as much as it's being shuffled from one carrier to another.

That is not accurate. This year will likely finish as the 2nd busiest year ever for IND. Falling just short of 2005 (or was it 2004?) when TZ was building their hub here. So it is growing very well. Next year will likely break the traffic record.

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 42):
How do you figure that IND will make an AMS flight work when MEM (with all their conectivity) hasnt demonstrated they need more than that. Are IND and MEM equal in your mind from NW's perspective?

If you listen to everyone on here it seems MEM is making AMS work perfectly well. IND and MEM are different creatures to NW. IND is an LCC modeled focus city where MEM is a hub. IND is build on O/D. MEM can rely on feed while IND can rely on a larger market. MEM has a population of 1,260,581 and IND has a population of 1,984,644 (2,006 CSA est.) Population numbers obtained from wikipedia.

And on the issue of those 152,000 international travelers. Those are foreigners coming to Indiana. It doesn't include people who reside in Indiana going overseas.

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 42):
isnt it better to have multiple choices to ORD, ATL, JFK, IAD, etc

I think you will find people will choose to avoid those places. Especially the first three you mention. I've never been to IAD so I can't comment. I believe you will find more people going IND-AMS because of convenience. I have made many international connections. I've flown across the pond on approximately 30 round trips. I know this nightmare well. U.S. hub airports are horrible for international arrivals. European ones are a breeze. It is easier to make your connection over there.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 40):
You only have to recheck your bag if you are catching a connecting flight. Otherwise you just leave.[..]

...by rechecking your bags, reclearing security, taking the train down to the other end of the airport, and picking up those bags that you just rechecked ten minutes ago at the E-concourse...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:28 am

ATL makes you recheck them even when ATL is your destination? Are you positive? If so then what kind of messed up system is that? Though when I was in ATL I remember their setup being a bit strange.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:40 am

Another note: Do you think the airport authority and the city is going to spend the kind of money needed to have a proper international arrivals facility including a dedicated baggage claim if they weren't going to use it? The original plan was to have one baggage claim that could be blocked off by a sliding wall. The plan was changed to have the baggage claim completely dedicated. I doubt they do that for the Saturday service to Cancun. They aren't going to go through all this trouble unless they feel confident they are going to make use of that space. That is why you build a 40 gate versus 60 gate terminal. You build according to need.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
OBSMGR
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:18 am

Ok folks... I'll just sit back and watch. Good luck with the new Indianapolis International....
Maybe "Gateway to the World" should be your new slogan? There is still time to get the sings changed before your new terminal opens right?

Probably would be a good idea to start service to Europe anyway, afterall, everyone over there is going to want to come and see Peyton Manning and the Indy 500 right? Hell, why not service to NRT and GIG while your at it?

More Kool-Aid anyone?

(By the way, there are NUMEROUS markets in the US bigger than IND that lack a direct link to Europe- including ones that have made it work in the past.... STL comes to mind immediately)
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
Indy
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 45):
(By the way, there are NUMEROUS markets in the US bigger than IND that lack a direct link to Europe- including ones that have made it work in the past.... STL comes to mind immediately)

Your point is what? That everyone should strive to fail? You can focus on failure or you can focus on the fact that places like RDU and BDL have the service. I choose to focus on success versus failure. I'll be quite honest... like it or not... that listening to people on this site for a couple of years it is obvious why the airline industry is a mess. Its like that old saying. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I used to hear this whiny crap like "Why would your city ever get a football team? You are so close to Cincinnati and Chicago... blah blah blah" I'm sure I can think of bigger markets in the U.S. that don't have pro football teams. A lack of vision will only leave you blinded.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 28):
Tristar...i think you are clearly in the minority so let's just leave it at that.

hey, we're not talking about what the majority thinks, but basing it on airline operations fact. I should change my mind because a majority of you think otherwise? How many on here actually work for airlines?

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Those portals don't matter. The idea is to avoid the double connection and the extra unnecessary flying. Otherwise why don't we just end all transatlantic service around the country and feed everyone into those 3 portals. It won't happen because it is a waste of money. What is the point of flying IND-DTW-AMS when you can just fly IND-AMS? Cut out that unnecessary connection. It will save passengers 2+ hours each direction. That includes extra travel time and the big international connection on the return trip. You fly home. You clear customs at home. And you go home. You don't have to recheck your bags and wait around for another flight. And you certainly weren't in a room with passengers from many other flights trying to clear customs. Much better for the passenger all around.

Your entire premise is wrong. Hub and spoke and international route structure economics don't work this way.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 30):
As what Tristar said is opinion and has no factual evidence, nothing is really wrong with being the minority. This website would be pretty boring if everyone agreed, eh?

Also, you other people that are the "majority" are also expressing an opinion and have no factual evidence, so "let's just leave it at that".

Oh, but I do have factual evidence. Without a hub here, there isn't a large enough market to support European service. Also, there are other larger markets in this country that don't have European service either that are not already within several hundred miles of three airports already providing the service (i.e. ORD, CVG, DTW).

Quoting RW170 (Reply 32):
Unfortunately the airlines aren't as concerned with what's better, more convenient, or more comfortable for the passenger as they are with what's profitable.

 checkmark 

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 40):
A lot of assumptions being made here folks. The reality is that the IND market really isnt that large. Its not growing in as much as it's being shuffled from one carrier to another.

How do you figure that IND will make an AMS flight work when MEM (with all their conectivity) hasnt demonstrated they need more than that. Are IND and MEM equal in your mind from NW's perspective?

And for those of you talking about point to point and the need to eliminate connections, am I to assume that means you believe all the European travelers in IND (all 152,000 of them) are from AMS? What about the connection on the other end? If I am in IND and going to LON, isnt it better to have multiple choices to ORD, ATL, JFK, IAD, etc, where I can connect to multiple flights to LHR or LGW (or STN), as opposed to taking the lone IND-AMS flight and connecting there?

 checkmark 

Quoting Indy (Reply 44):
Another note: Do you think the airport authority and the city is going to spend the kind of money needed to have a proper international arrivals facility including a dedicated baggage claim if they weren't going to use it? The original plan was to have one baggage claim that could be blocked off by a sliding wall. The plan was changed to have the baggage claim completely dedicated. I doubt they do that for the Saturday service to Cancun. They aren't going to go through all this trouble unless they feel confident they are going to make use of that space. That is why you build a 40 gate versus 60 gate terminal. You build according to need.

Politicians designed the new terminal and always have delusions of grandeur and over promises. Public works projects based on reality?  Yeah sure

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 45):
Ok folks... I'll just sit back and watch.....Hell, why not service to NRT and GIG while your at it?

More Kool-Aid anyone?

(By the way, there are NUMEROUS markets in the US bigger than IND that lack a direct link to Europe- including ones that have made it work in the past.... STL comes to mind immediately)

 checkmark 

Quoting Indy (Reply 46):
Your point is what? That everyone should strive to fail? You can focus on failure or you can focus on the fact that places like RDU and BDL have the service. I choose to focus on success versus failure. I'll be quite honest... like it or not... that listening to people on this site for a couple of years it is obvious why the airline industry is a mess. Its like that old saying. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I used to hear this whiny crap like "Why would your city ever get a football team? You are so close to Cincinnati and Chicago... blah blah blah" I'm sure I can think of bigger markets in the U.S. that don't have pro football teams. A lack of vision will only leave you blinded.

The airline business is simply not as easy and simple as you portend to understand. Also, thank you for bashing all of us airline employees that we are the reason the industry is a mess, as you say, because we just are too stubborn or stupid to think outside the box or to listen to people like yourself with all this common sense.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
OBSMGR
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 44):
Another note: Do you think the airport authority and the city is going to spend the kind of money needed to have a proper international arrivals facility including a dedicated baggage claim if they weren't going to use it? The original plan was to have one baggage claim that could be blocked off by a sliding wall. The plan was changed to have the baggage claim completely dedicated. I doubt they do that for the Saturday service to Cancun. They aren't going to go through all this trouble unless they feel confident they are going to make use of that space. That is why you build a 40 gate versus 60 gate terminal. You build according to need.

If you build it, they will come...... thats it right?

Gee, someone should find out what STL and PIT are doing wrong... they already have it and no one is running to them with more flights....

Why is that?
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
chase
Posts: 658
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RE: IND Service To Europe- Is It Possible?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 40):
If I am in IND and going to LON, isnt it better to have multiple choices to ORD, ATL, JFK, IAD, etc, where I can connect to multiple flights to LHR or LGW (or STN), as opposed to taking the lone IND-AMS flight and connecting there?


Honestly, if I wanted to go IND-LON, and NW/KL did offer IND-AMS, I'd prefer IND-DTW-LON-AMS-IND. I like the longest hop of the day to be the last one.

To answer the OP's other question...there's a poster-sized old routemap in ATA's HQ that shows Riga, Latvia as a destination. The founder is Latvian, and the startup was funded with lots of help from IND's Latvian community. The routing was (somewhere in the US)-(somewhere to refuel)-Riga. Probably IND-SNN-Riga, but don't quote me on that. Or maybe IND-Gander-Riga, but I doubt it. Something like that, anyway.

Another point for the IND-AMS flight...NW does funnel a little bit of connecting traffic through IND. So an IND-AMS might be used in itineraries like DEN-IND-AMS or MCI-IND-AMS. Not primarily, as DEN/MCI-DTW-AMS would be better in a lot of ways...but I'm sure some would buy it if it were made available for purchase.

[Edited 2007-11-09 09:04:20]

[Edited 2007-11-09 09:05:14]

[Edited 2007-11-09 09:06:07]

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