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avek00
Posts: 3245
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:38 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 139):
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 136):

Based upon what antitrust legal theory?

It's not based upon theory, it is based upon common sense and rationale.

That's just not how large-scale corporate mergers are evaluated by DOJ regulators. If regulators cannot bring forth an argument to justify blocking a merger based on a sound antitrust legal theory buttressed by the facts, the DOJ decision has zero chance of withstanding federal appellate review.

Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 103):
THERE ARE NO MERGER TALKS BETWEEN DELTA AND UNITED TAKING PLACE.

Just because they said so doesn't make it so!

Unless Anderson is ready to go to prison, it is so for the time being.

Quoting 777law (Reply 143):
Of course their denying the talks. That's how these things work.

As an attorney (according to your profile), I'd expect you of all people to understand that corporate officers simply cannot lie about material events like a merger.

Can they refuse to confirm or deny rumors? Yes. Can they acknowledge talks? Sure. But outright lie about negotiations? Absolutely not.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:51 am



Quoting Hoya (Reply 14):
But what about all the government travel?

They can connect just like the rest of the US does. And they can connect in ATLANTA!!!!!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
hiflyer
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:57 am



Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 147):
And what happened to Pan Am?

Delta withheld financing as Debtor in Possession which closed the shrunken carrier after making a quiet deal to sell off the Latin rights to UA.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:01 am



Quoting Delta Fly Boy (Reply 148):
Excuse me? Do you/have you ever worked for Delta?... if so, please I would like to know just how 'dismal' Delta's track record is....

13 years boy......(retired thank god).... well lets see... how about DFW, ANC, JNU... LAX.... DL management said they would fully continue to support these cities.... ok... CVG... OO.... the list goes on... pay scales.... benefits... healthcare.... retirement..... job security....failed oriental plan... failed PDX hub.... outsourcing jetside ops...DGS..... "Leaders of the New Delta".....give me a break... have some more Koolaid
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
Super80DFW
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:02 am

If it was to ever happen, the airline would drop IAD and move those flights to ATL, drop SLC and move those flights to DEN, drop CVG and move those flights to ORD, and drop SFO to move to LAX.
 
platinumfoota
Posts: 213
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:04 am

Negative, they will not merge. This was talk between shareholders not management.
Never forget United 93
 
Gnomon
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:10 am



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 150):
Can they refuse to confirm or deny rumors? Yes. Can they acknowledge talks? Sure. But outright lie about negotiations? Absolutely not.

This is of course exactly right. Which makes all the more befuddling the AP's reports that its source -- an "official" involved in the negotiations -- steadfastly stands behind the first details of the talks: that the UA name would survive and HQ would relocate to Chicago. [Someone else, either in this thread or another one, noted some linguistic similarities between the source's quote and the quote of a university professor/airline analyst, but the AP wouldn't refer to a university professor as an "official" involved in the negotiations unless s/he was actually involved...]

Add to this Pardus' obvious interest in massaging the value of both DL and UA stocks, as well as its apparent interest in pushing the players toward consolidation, and this story becomes highly suspect, IMHO.

I do agree that a corporate officer would face criminal penalties for misrepresenting facts regarding a material event. As you said, the response would be to withhold comment or confirm, to some extent, that talks are taking place. But Anderson (a former prosecutor) and DL's legal team are smarter than to deny the reports as emphatically as DL executives have today unless the denials are truthful.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:13 am



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 154):
the airline would drop IAD and move those flights to ATL, drop SLC and move those flights to DEN, drop CVG and move those flights to ORD, and drop SFO to move to LAX.

I have to say, I agree on the CVG and possibly the SLC front, but I think IAD and ATL would both exhist togther... UA pulls a lot of political capital from the hub there, not to mention the void that would be created on their exit... it's basicly a HUGE gift to FL and WN based on the a/c coming in this year... lots of popular high yielding routes...
1.4mm and counting...
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:15 am

From a route map perspective, it does have some credibility. UA is weak on the East Coast, even with IAD, which is more of a transit point than a true O&D hub, and DL, despite SLC and a renewed emphasis on LAX, is weaker out West. UA would gain Delta's massive European presence, Central and Latin America and Caribbean routes, all of which are weak spots in the UA system, and Delta would gain UA's Asia Pacific system. Problem here is sheer size. These are two very large airlines, with huge workforces, limited similarities as far as fleets go.

I don't see it happening.

What would be healthier for the US airline industry would be for the low cost carriers to merge. JetBlue and AirTran or Southwest and AirTran, and a reduction in the overlap all these and the legacy carriers have, without driving up fares.
 
777fan
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:25 am



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 119):
I only pray the DOT and DOJ are smart enough to realize that any Major Carrier merger would only raise fares for the consumer and create a more monopolistic system. Certainly DL and UA will not be allowed.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 135):
With mergers comes unemployment, and with unemployment a weak economy.

I noticed that you're in college - have you completed macroeconomics yet?! Say, hypothetically, both UA and DL are liquidated...what happens then? The economy is already teetering on a recession that has nothing to do with the airline industry and more on inflation, which could prove to be a double-whammy in the form of (continually) rising fuel prices and declining revenue brought on by fewer leisure travellers.

If you're so concerned about mergers and layoffs, try searching Google for "americanautomakers.net", or "disappearingmanufacturingbase.org"; GM, Ford, et al. have laid off tens of thousands of employees over the last twenty years. While you might not want to admit it, both UA and DL have an obligation to their shareholders which in some cases includes UA and DL employees. If it's in the shareholders' interest to merge, then they'll probably pursue it.

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 132):
J.P.Morgan - Chase Manhattan N.A..

Don't forget about Exxon-Mobil...funny, that hasn't been cited yet given some a.netters' obsession with the "oil company conspiracy".


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
777law
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 150):
As an attorney (according to your profile), I'd expect you of all people to understand that corporate officers simply cannot lie about material events like a merger.

Can they refuse to confirm or deny rumors? Yes. Can they acknowledge talks? Sure. But outright lie about negotiations? Absolutely not


And how exactly, does denying a press report about preliminary talks constitute lying about negotiations?

Nothing in the press states that the parties have commenced formal merger negotiations. The press reports are only that the the airlines have "talked" about the possibility of merging. There is a massive difference between the two.

In fact, there is probably a confidentiality agreement between UA and DL that obligates both sides to keep the talks secret. Now that word has leaked of the talks (not negotiations) both sides are denying the talks have occurred.

The preliminary talks between UA / DL, assuming they are actually talking, probably didn't even require board authorization. There is no issue of lying or illegal behavior here.

[Edited 2007-11-14 18:37:09]
If its not a Boeing I ain't going
 
daron4000
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:30 am



Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 147):
As mentioned elsewhere on this thread something akin to the return of Pan Am.

And what happened to Pan Am?

Pan Am went out of business for many reasons but their route network was not one of the reasons. They went bankrupt because of the massive 747's on domestic routes that could not be filled profitiably after the oil crises, the increase in costs after National, and the fact that by the late 80's, their security reputation was severely tarnished. Also, when they began selling off their network, they lost FF's but it was never becasue of their original international network.

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 154):
If it was to ever happen, the airline would drop IAD and move those flights to ATL, drop SLC and move those flights to DEN, drop CVG and move those flights to ORD, and drop SFO to move to LAX.

And the reason for these unsabstantiated claims is what? If you listened to UA's corporate calls, IAD is making boatloads of money right now and that is why international expansion has been so successful there. There is no way that IAD would be dropped, especially when JFK is about to become slot restricted. Similarly, there is no room for any CVG flights at ORD as they are also maxed out on slots. And SFO is by far more profitable for UA than LAX, hence the reason why UA chose to make it thier Asian gateway, while pulling down LAX at the same time in the late 90's.
 
Super80DFW
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:41 am



Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
And SFO is by far more profitable for UA than LAX

But it is already a hub or focus city for BOTH of the airlines. It makes way more sense than SFO.

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
Similarly, there is no room for any CVG flights at ORD

Well, I guess the airline wouldn't have much to lose on CVG. DL could drop CVG this second and take those aircraft to better places.

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
IAD is making boatloads of money right now

What, from a once maybe twice a day RJ to their n/s cities except for other UA hubs.
 
JRDC930
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:42 am



Quoting 777fan (Reply 159):
While you might not want to admit it, both UA and DL have an obligation to their shareholders which in some cases includes UA and DL employees. If it's in the shareholders' interest to merge, then they'll probably pursue it.

YES i have taken macroeconomics, and for your information there are various different economic sub theories in Macro. Unfortunately However, you are right, that "obligation" which leads to greed is how the U.S. has caused so much misery to its own people. weather i like it or not thats the way it is. (By the way was it their own interest or the stockholders interest for the people at ENRON, and what about the California electrical price gouging?) I just personally find it revolting to see so many people on airliners.net blindly supporting corporate America's attempts to pocket more cash for themselves at the cost of the workers and the consumer. I guess in my perfect world if both UA and DL were struggling the solution would be Nationalization or government subsidies, that way you promote competition by preventing a merger, and prevent a collapse of the company, but I'm ranting now...

For practical purposes and sheer market power, i SERIOUSLY doubt the DOT and DOJ would allow the merger. After all what was the point of deregulation? To promote competition, not LESS competition. If airlines are allowed to re regulate themselves, what benefits do the consumers get? High prices? Flights only for the super wealthy, so management and the stock holders can buy a 5th house from an already profitable future monopolistic-like triopoly?.

P.S. People dont like higher fares, government officials know this, government officials want votes; im sure merger mania will not sit well with the democrats. If i agree with nothing else about the Democratic party, its with their opposition of large corporate power plays, like what airlines like UA and DL want to do.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:46 am



Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 49):
757 (UA RR powered, DL PW powered)

No, they're both PW powered.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 68):
Even a merged UA/DL doesnt reach places like Valencia, Spain or Lyon France without a partner

Not true, as per those examples. DL has already announced the resumption of Lyon, and Valencia is on the shortlist for upcoming destinations in Europe.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 139):
It's not based upon theory, it is based upon common sense

...and what about Aviation law/mergers, is based on that?  Wink

Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
a flag carrier for the US that really serves the entire country, domestically and internationally. This is something AF does for France

LOL, you're using Air Paris as an example of such?

Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
Their route system overlaps in NYC, Texas and Ohio.

Used to... DL's got a large customer base, but no real presence to speak of, in Texas nowadays
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:01 am



Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 147):
As mentioned elsewhere on this thread something akin to the return of Pan Am.

And what happened to Pan Am?

Pan Am went out of business for many reasons but their route network was not one of the reasons. They went bankrupt because of the massive 747's on domestic routes that could not be filled profitiably after the oil crises, the increase in costs after National, and the fact that by the late 80's, their security reputation was severely tarnished. Also, when they began selling off their network, they lost FF's but it was never becasue of their original international network.

I disagree. Pan Am's route network, specifically their prohibition from serving US domestic routes (except Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico) until deregulation in the late 1970s, was a major problem for PA since they lacked a domestic feeder network to their international gateways at JFK, MIA, SFO, LAX etc. PA and NW were major competitors on the Pacific for years but NW had the advantage of also having a domestic network which PA lacked. TWA had the same advantage on transatlantic routes where they were PA's major compeititor but also had a large domestic network.

Pan Am's merger with National was intended to provide domestic feeder routes but National's routes weren't ideally suited for that. If domestic deregulation had arrived a decade or so earlier, permitting PA to develop their own domestic network, they would have become much stronger. When deregulation did happen, PA was already financially weak and couldn't really capitalize on it.
 
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mariner
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:04 am



Quoting 777law (Reply 160):
There is no issue of lying or illegal behavior here.

I think the SEC would have a different view.

Delta CEO Anderson said:

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...cles/newstex/AFX-0013-20990279.htm

'There have been no talks with United regarding any type of consolidation transaction and there are no such ongoing discussions.'

That is not an ambiguous statement.

Given the stock price action both prior and subsequent to that statement, if it were discovered that any talks regarding some type of consolidation had, in fact, taken place, at whatever level, then the SEC would have a lot of questions for Mr. Anderson.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
steeler83
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:05 am

I really do not see this merger happening. UA keeping the name of the airline, and dropping DL? UA may have more of a global presence, but I think that DL would have the better track record (pax satisfaction/complaints etc...) I could be wrong, but that's what I would think considering what I have heard of other folks who delt with UA...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
atlaaron
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:16 am

I have been reading about this off and on all night and quite honestly the best information is located at www.ajc.com which of course is the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

Long story short, this thing is not going to happen, I think DL is more interested in NW.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:09 am



Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 168):
Long story short, this thing is not going to happen, I think DL is more interested in NW.

Indeed...and to add to that

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...ries/2007/11/14/delta_isakson.html

"U.S. Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Georgia) said Wednesday he was personally given assurances by Delta CEO Richard H. Anderson that Anderson would back a merger only if "Delta is the survivor" and the carrier continued to be based in Atlanta"
 
DALOCCDtyDrctr
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:15 am



Quoting Flydl2atl (Thread starter):
It's official, so I thought it might deserve it's own thread...if not I guess the moderators can delete it:

Since when does an AP report about a statement made by a group of investment bankers seeking to boost their returns, make anything official?
N102DA
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:31 am

What's the next merger in the US airline industry if this merger story regarding DL and UA is indeed true? Would Continental and Northwest will have no choice left but a merger if Delta/United goes through? Also, I think that American and USAirways may be forced merger partners, and then Frontier/JetBlue/Alaska may end up in a 3way merger just to remain competitive with the mega-merger of the other major US airlines?
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
ckfred
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:39 am

Here are some reasons why the merger is a bad idea.

First, the feds nixed the UA/US merger back in 2001. If UA couldn't buy US, why would the feds allow UA to buy a bigger airline?

Second, there probably will be some serious lay-offs. A lot of DL white-collar employees will be let go, if the combined carrier is to be United, headquartered in Chicago. Further, my guess would be that SLC and CVG would be seriously downgraded, as well as IAD. That is going to upset the DL employees who helped in the fight to keep US from buying DL.

Third, if UA is the acquiring carrier, then would DL employees join UA's various union groups? It would make much more sense for DL to be the acquiring carrier, so that UA's employees would become non-union. This was the case when Western employees became DL employees.

Fourth, there is an incredible mix of narrowbodies, with UA flying A320s, A319s, 737-300s, and 737-500s. Meanwhile, DL flies 737-800s, MD-88s, and MD-90s. The only narrowbody that both airlines fly is the 757-200. That will present a maintenance and scheduling headache, as well as some hard decisions later on about fleet renewal. UA is sitting on Airbus options, while DL has deferred Boeing orders.

Fifth, what happens to Star and Skyteam? There is no way that regulators on either side of the Atlantic would allow an alliance that has both LH and AF/KL on the European side, and NW, CO and UA/DL on the U.S. side.

It seems to me that UA really wants 2 things, a larger presence in the Northeast and a larger presence in the Southeast. Yes, DL has a lot of trans-Atlantic service, and UA would certainly benefit from those routes.

This is just talking out loud, but if UA wants a bigger presence in the Northeast, which was one of the reasons why it tried to buy US, then wouldn't buying B6 make more sense. First, UA gets the Northeast and JFK presence that it wants. Second, it would be much less expensive. Third, integration would be less of an issue. Fourth, you also get rid of a competitor.
 
United Airline
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:15 am

Is UA taking over DL or DL taking over UA?
 
jmhLUV2fly
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:22 am

I just have two words in responding to the concept of Delta merging with UAL: "Get Serious"
I didnt read through all the replies but when I saw the thread that was the first thought that came to mind.
Such a merger should never be approved, it would create such a huge airline creating what I believe would be an unfair monoply in the airline business, I believe if such did occur, SLC would be dropped or least dramatically reduced as it would be too close to DEN, same would go for CVG as it would be too close to ORD, but I dont think there is anything to stress about, only time will tell, but if any merger were to have taken place concerning DL I think joining up with US was the better of two evils.

JMH-Pensacola, Florida!!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:05 am

UA have stated that they are not going to comment on basically a complete load or rubbish. This merger is going nowhere.
 
jfk777
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:52 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 131):
Absolutely not. Under no circumstances will a full merger between UA and DL be allowed. Other airlines, such as AA and CO, would take parts of the airlines. AA, for example, might buy some 763s and the Dulles hub, or CO could buy 738s and the SLC hub, etc., etc.

Other airlines may buy pieces of DL/UA, like the RR Delta 777-200ER airplane. Delta and UA have little route overlap internationlly and within the USA. I just don't see what they would have to give up like LHR or NRT slots since UA has most of those & DL has almost none, one at NRT and 3 at LHR in March 2008. ORD, LGA and DCA slots may be given up to appease the critics but they don't overlap on shuttles or DL's north - south versus UA LGA and DCA to ORD and Denver flights. If another airline wants SLC or CVG they can buy the hub from DL. Terminal space at LAX may be on the table but these are small things relative to the whole merger. If another airline wants a route to China or Japan that may be a price to consider or call the whole thing off. I can see the folks in Texas at AA & CAL headquarters doing the Asia Calculus as how to get those new Atlanta to PVG and PEK routes swithched to them. The airline world series has began.
 
AviationAddict
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:56 pm

Heard on the news this morning that both airlines are denying the story but that Delta is thinking about a possible merger, but anything to do with UA is, for the time being bogus.
 
bobnwa
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:30 pm



Quoting Centrair (Reply 149):
Buy merging with UA, they get a very good route network. With NW...not much better and as I said in the past, NW's Japan agreement is restrictive and could in the end not benefit DL as much as getting UA's (PanAm's rights

I know you keep saying that NWA's Japan rights are restrictive and only the Northwest name can own the rights. This pure BS and an A.net myth. Do you have anything at all to back up your statement. Just because you keep saying it, does not make it so!!!
 
lrdc9
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:27 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:42 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 10):
I could see the smaller CVG and SLC hubs being very easily combined into the much larger more dominat ORD and DEN hubs (respectively).

Denver yes, but ORD, no. They don't have the room to expand since ORD is slotted.
Just say NO to scabs.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:52 pm



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 172):
First, the feds nixed the UA/US merger back in 2001. If UA couldn't buy US, why would the feds allow UA to buy a bigger airline?

Does anybody know exacftly how long it took for the US regulators, from the day UA/US applied for approval to mergr,, to the day the ruling came down, to rule against the merger?

I think it took longer than the time that is left in the Bush administration. Point is, there will be no UA/DL merger.In addition this situation would have CO and AA protesting loudly. There are also both Texas companies and sure to get Bushs attention pronto. It is just another reason why this lame brained idea will not go anywhere.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:01 pm

Are we still talking about this? It was a false media report, that was denied within 10 minutes... Im sure we will ahve plenty of time to discuss more realistic merger posibilities when actual discussions are confirmed. Meanwhile, the last this this forum needs is another BS merger thread.

somebody lock this thread....
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:08 pm

Ditching the Delta name and keeping the idiots in Chicago would combine to make this the worst merger ever. I'm wondering if DL's loyalty in ATL would die down if the name changed to United? It might present a real opportunity for FL to jump on DL in ATL and for B6 to jump on them in SLC, not to mention a scramble for the LCCs to show up in CVG all of a sudden.
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:08 pm



Quoting Centrair (Reply 149):
Buy merging with UA, they get a very good route network. With NW...not much better and as I said in the past, NW's Japan agreement is restrictive and could in the end not benefit DL as much as getting UA's (PanAm's rights).

UA's (Pan Am's) rights are exactly the same as NWA's rights and are covered by the exact same treaties and agreements.

The 5th freedom rights are government to government with NWA and UA being the current 2 USA Government nominated carriers. These rights are completely transferable by the USA government between USA flag carriers by notification to the Japanese Government (JAL and ANA also have similar rights for beyond USA flights but do not often use them).

The only sticking point for the complete transfer of the NWA asian route system to another carrier (or the takeover of the entire NWA system) would be in the transfer of NRT slots. There is no doubt that in the event of a corporate merger, the slots would be retained by the merged carrier.

The question before was whether Pan Am could sell them off with the slots as a part of a piecemeal sale instead of having them transfered as a part of a corporate takeover. The question was subject to extensive negotiations between the countries. In the end, it was allowed in that particular case. It is the SALE OF THE SLOTS, not transfer of slots in a merger, that causes the problem. UA is in the exact same position WRT their NRT slots.

If NWA merges with another carrier, the rights and slots would continue to the surviving carrier regardless of the name.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:23 pm



Quoting IADLHR (Reply 180):
Point is, there will be no UA/DL merger.In addition this situation would have CO and AA protesting loudly. There are also both Texas companies and sure to get Bushs attention pronto. It is just another reason why this lame brained idea will not go anywhere.

I'm not so sure that the government would come down against a merger just because CO and AA oppose it. After all, there is an extremely compelling economic argument for mergers if you assume that the industry is not sustainable at present. The transaction costs associated with a merger are far lower than those associated with liquidation and other carriers cleaning up the mess piecemeal.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DC9RHI
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:18 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:49 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 118):
“They can’t do that to Delta! Only WE can do that to Delta!”

Thank you for paying attention.

Now, we all know there's only one main merger question . . .
the one everyone wants to know . . .
HOW WILL THIS AFFECT NORTHWEST'S DC-9's'?
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:04 pm



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 182):
Ditching the Delta name and keeping the idiots in Chicago would combine to make this the worst merger ever. I'm wondering if DL's loyalty in ATL would die down if the name changed to United? It might present a real opportunity for FL to jump on DL in ATL and for B6 to jump on them in SLC, not to mention a scramble for the LCCs to show up in CVG all of a sudden.

Cirtus Critter youre making a good point. I said earlier that AA, FL, WN and B6 should be rooting for such a stupid merger. It would open up opportunities in SLC for WN or B6, FL could get all sorts of concessions from a desperate DL/UA for slots and gates at DCA, LGA and gates in ATL. Loyality to UA in ATL would wane im sure. AA could also pick off some pieces her and there. NW might be able to grab IAD if the DOJ concludes that ATL, IAD and JFK make too much concentration ont the east coast.

I dont believe DL wants a merger, but is being forced to by wall street. UAL and their idiots want a merger to enrich themselves. And their behavior back in 2000-01 showed they are willing to pay nearly any price for one.
 
NW748i
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:40 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:16 pm



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 119):
to allow merger mania to create a monopolistic airline system for the super wealthy

I'm sure the LCC threat will balance that... it's the one thing they're useful for.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 121):
Delta seems to have done much better over the period than USAirways when compared by stock performance.

I understand your point. He didn't say it, but I assume when JPMorgan/Parker say this they are assuming the stock price of US had the deal gone through. On the last earnings call he said "everybody's balance sheets would look a lot better had that dealgone through." Though we can only speculate, I can't help but wonder how a US/DL combo would be performing. More on point to your comment, I wonder how the two companies respective stock would be performing now, as I suspect that had that deal proceeded they would have separate stocks for at least several months...

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 122):
This is all coming out of Rupert Murdoch

No. It came from AP and the first network to report it was CNBC (and they just had to bring in Mike Boyd). In fact, when Fox Business Network reported on it during 'Nightly Scoreboard,' David Asman just sat there lamenting how consumers would lose out--apparently not what you would expect from "Rupert Murdoch land." In this case, however, I think Asman is dead wrong (I doubt he knows much about the industry anyway).

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 128):
assurances by Delta CEO Richard H. Anderson that Anderson would back a merger only if "Delta is the survivor" and the carrier continued to be based in Atlanta.

That's good... unless the Board of Director's cans him at the behest of the shareholders disappointed in the unfulfilled promises and wanting a quick out (whatever the expense of the airline itself).

Quoting STT757 (Reply 138):
DL wants to be the acquirer, which brings us back to NWA.

Let DL acquire Great Lakes... that's a good match!
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2791
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:18 pm

If a DL/UA merger happens, here's what I think will happen...

-Headquarters would be in Chicago, but Delta management would be the boss.
-The current (2004) UA livery will be the surviving livery.
-The MD-88s/MD-90s would be sold. 737s, A319s/A320s, 757s, 767s, 777s, and 747s would remain.
-Hubs would be ORD, DEN, JFK, LAX, SFO, IAD, and ATL. CVG and SLC would be downgraded to focus cities.
-Comair, Delta Ground Services, Delta TechOps, and United Services would be sold to independent buyers to reduce debt.
-The airline would be a Star Alliance member.
-There will be a fight between Chase (UA's partner) and American Express (DL's partner) for the cobranded Mileage Plus credit card. (Maybe with Visa and JPMorgan Chase settling a recent lawsuit with American Express, Chase could issue United Mileage Plus cards in both Visa and AmEx versions?)
-At least one smaller regional partner would be dumped.
-Rhapsody in Blue will be the song used in commercials for "the new United".

[Edited 2007-11-15 07:20:09]
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:31 pm



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 188):
If a DL/UA merger happens, here's what I think will happen...

you forgot that the airline merger woudl likely fall flat and drive the surviving airline into bankruptcy
 
NW748i
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:40 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:36 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 186):
AA could also pick off some pieces her and there. NW might be able to grab IAD if the DOJ concludes that ATL, IAD and JFK make too much concentration ont the east coast.

I say AA at DCA and NW at IAD.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 188):
-Rhapsody in Blue will be the song used in commercials for "the new United".

 checkmark 
UA has the classiest ad campaign (esp. TV) in the industry. The only DL ad that I've ever seen (on TV) is actually for AMEX... even if the DL mgt had to stay, I hope they have the good sense to keep the UA marketing division.
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
micstatic
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:48 pm



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 182):
I'm wondering if DL's loyalty in ATL would die down if the name changed to United?

United would have to start upgrading the heck out of their airplanes. Delta is a tier above them domestically for the in-flight experience. If they lowered the quality to match current-United, the new airline would certainly lose customers.
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:54 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 12):


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Dulles will stay, though, IMO. Huge local market.

What make you think DOT and DOJ allow IAD to stay?

The idea that this can get done by Jan 2009, is ridiculous.

UA wasted precious time in 2000-01 to adjust to the economic downturn pre-911, with the moronic UA/US merger..this will be at least 2x as difficult.

AA, FL and WN should be dancing over this. While these two DL and UA are dicusiing way to destroy their companies, AA, FL, CO and WN are looking for ways to grow smartly, ie internally without the pain of integration of fleets, employees etc.

What do they intend to gain by merging? Neither airline is in great shape, financially. Wouldn't you think this is only digging a deeper hole for each?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
CitrusCritter
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:26 pm



Quoting Micstatic (Reply 191):
United would have to start upgrading the heck out of their airplanes. Delta is a tier above them domestically for the in-flight experience. If they lowered the quality to match current-United, the new airline would certainly lose customers.

Not just that, but a lot of the loyalty to DL in ATL is based around the fact that it's Delta, which has been in ATL for a very long-time, and that it's based in ATL. If you change the name on the side to "United" and move the HQ to ORD -- regardless of which mgmt team stays -- that won't be Delta anymore. The folks in Orlando at AirTran are probably jumping for joy over this rumor because it would throw UA/DL into all sorts of chaos and give FL a chance to really pound them in ATL.

Of course, it'd suck for MCO, because FL would probably jump up and move their HQ back to ATL to fully capitalize on the deal.  Sad
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
sxf24
Posts: 991
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:46 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 131):
Absolutely not. Under no circumstances will a full merger between UA and DL be allowed. Other airlines, such as AA and CO, would take parts of the airlines. AA, for example, might buy some 763s and the Dulles hub, or CO could buy 738s and the SLC hub, etc., etc.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 139):
It's not based upon theory, it is based upon common sense and rationale.

There is no common sense or rationale to much of your comments. The perspective of the DOT/DOJ has changed dramatically since UA and US tried to merge. In addition, neither can require an airline to sell capital assets such as aircraft (not to mention why would an airline want to sell valuable, long-haul aircraft). SLC and IAD are not slot restricted airports and there is nothing - outside of ground equipment - to sell. The airlines could be required to give up some gates, but I think they would voluntarily. The only area where possible issues exist is with DCA slots.
 
JRDC930
Posts: 882
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:36 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:49 pm

[quote=Cubsrule,reply=184]After all, there is an extremely compelling economic argument for mergers if you assume that the industry is not sustainable at present. The transaction costs associated with a merger are far lower than those associated with liquidation and other carriers cleaning up the mess piecemeal.[/quote
The issue is that many economists and Industry experts cant agree if the airlines are sustainable or not. They certainly weren't under regulation, and all they have been doing for 30 years is whining about having to actually compete in a free market system. No, having studied abit of Aviation law and regulatory practices, i can tell you the DOT and DOJ are definately skewed NOT to allow such mergers, especially when the two airlines are just starting to recover. Hopefully the DOT and DOJ wont change their anti-merger slants in the industry, because merger mania would mean the elimination of LCC's by sheer market strength, and 2-3000 dollar fares for 4 min. flights.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:59 pm

Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

 Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:00 pm



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 193):
Of course, it'd suck for MCO, because FL would probably jump up and move their HQ back to ATL to fully capitalize on the deal.

that is another thing i think could happen...FL has resisted moving to ATL because the state and city have been so politically in the corner of DL epsecially after the hard times post 911. Move the HDQ to ORD and paint the planes United, and I think the state and city would be falling over themselves to get FL...then the city would change it tune when it came to catering to UA versus DL. FL would find it easier to get gates at ATL, might see some terminal expansion that was dedicated to FL.......as I said FL, B6, WN and AA could very well benefit from a giant UA/DL clusterf&ck. If NW could persuade DOT/DOJ that ATL, IAD mad JFK was too much concentration on the east coast, then NW would do real well to take over UA operation in IAD...it would compliment DTW, MSP very well.
 
regupilot
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:45 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:05 pm

Interesting how a merger between 2 airlines becomes a problem for many organizations.
 
NW748i
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:40 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:15 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 196):
Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

Well, that is what happens in a merger. Two entities become... 'United.'
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!

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