Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:17 pm



Quoting NW748i (Reply 199):
Well, that is what happens in a merger. Two entities become... 'United.'

Yes, but there is more to it than 'uniting' two entities...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
CV880
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:56 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 196):
Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

What's wrong with resurrection of the best known airline name and logo in the world? (Should never have been auctioned off in the 1st place.) Even the 2nd alternative (think STL) isn't all that bad....

[Edited 2007-11-15 10:02:26]
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:59 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 196):
Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

Because UA is a much better recognized brand throughout the US and the world. It is a symbol of being one of the USA's flag carriers and is better established in the world's most important cities (e.g. LHR, FRA, NRT, HKG, SYD, SIN, LAX, SFO, ORD, etc.). Sure they're weak in NYC right now but they've historically had a good presence and there's still good brand recognition.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 191):
United would have to start upgrading the heck out of their airplanes. Delta is a tier above them domestically for the in-flight experience. If they lowered the quality to match current-United, the new airline would certainly lose customers.

How is DL so much better than UA domestically? Sure they've added PTVs on a few of their transcon planes but that doesn't really mean better service to me. Every recent UA flight I've taken has had comfortable seats, IFE, the same buy-on-board as DL, Economy Plus, etc. It's not like DL has suddenly crossed the line where they're now by the far the best carrier in the sky. They're still in transition and their product is extremely inconsistent. I doubt such a merger would lose a single customer because of "in-flight experience".
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:37 pm

United:

ORD
DEN
SFO
LAX
IAD

Delta:
ATL
CVG
SLC
LAX

My guess is that either IAD or CVG will go to cancel either of them out and SLC will be gone in favor of DEN.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
dia77
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:41 pm

Just to play devil's advocate, while most people are assuming that a UA/DL merger will result in a consolidation of the SLC hub into DEN, I wonder if the increasing capacity and competition in DEN (and consequently lower yields) will make the merged airline consider SLC as their mountain west hub. Although DEN has much more O/D and a larger business community, it looks like F9 and WN are going to be there for long haul. DEN may ultimately be the choice, if and when a merger takes place, but I don't think we can completely discount SLC's position.

On another note, I think that a UA/DL merger is not going to happen, so my previous statement is most likely a moot point.  Smile
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2208
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:54 pm



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 181):
Are we still talking about this? It was a false media report, that was denied within 10 minutes...

Usually when companies start denying stuff is when it's really close to happening...

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 196):
Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

Brand Equity
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
VC10er
Posts: 4257
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:01 pm

i think this merger would be great for me as a new yorker and an avid UA flyer. the problem is the Delta international product is so bad. i just did BOM to JFK in a "new Delta" 777. it was shockingly awful, and they should stop boasting in their advertising. the new Delta is just lipstick on the pig.
on the BOM to JFK ride the seats and IFE had no power for the first hour and a half with the crew saying there was a chance we would have to do the entire 13 hour flight sitting straight up with no entertainment. the food was average business class quality.
Would a merged UA and DL install United's new business class product (and new first class) both lie flats vs Delta recliners across the entire fleet?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:04 pm



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 188):
If a DL/UA merger happens, here's what I think will happen...

-Headquarters would be in Chicago, but Delta management would be the boss.
-The current (2004) UA livery will be the surviving livery.
-The MD-88s/MD-90s would be sold. 737s, A319s/A320s, 757s, 767s, 777s, and 747s would remain.
-Hubs would be ORD, DEN, JFK, LAX, SFO, IAD, and ATL. CVG and SLC would be downgraded to focus cities.
-Comair, Delta Ground Services, Delta TechOps, and United Services would be sold to independent buyers to reduce debt.
-The airline would be a Star Alliance member.
-There will be a fight between Chase (UA's partner) and American Express (DL's partner) for the cobranded Mileage Plus credit card. (Maybe with Visa and JPMorgan Chase settling a recent lawsuit with American Express, Chase could issue United Mileage Plus cards in both Visa and AmEx versions?)
-At least one smaller regional partner would be dumped.
-Rhapsody in Blue will be the song used in commercials for "the new United".

Why would you sell a major fleet like the -88/90s? I think they would use the combined huge size of the carrier to put the hurt on the competition and finally equalize the playing field with SWA and the other LCCs. I wouldn't sell off planes and routes just to see other carriers come in and backfill them. I'd blanket the country with aircraft and use the opportunity to get get rid of 100's of RJs and upsize them to mainline equipment.

If I were running this combined behemoth, I'd make DL the surviving carrier and de-unionize a large portion of the work force. Of course they could vote the unions in again but smart managers will give employees plenty of incentives not to.

Finally, I'd remain in Skyteam because AF/KLM is the largest player in Europe and CDG is the best hub. The AF/DL joint venture will be extremely profitable for both carriers and I can't see DL letting that go.
 
EMB170
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:08 pm

New member here...put have watched for some time. My thoughts (if anyone cares):

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 188):
I'm sure the LCC threat will balance that... it's the one thing they're useful for.

True, but as many in the aviation consulting business point out, there's only so many places that a 100-150 seat jet can make money. Smaller citiies like EVV, FWA, FSD, FAR, BGR, HSV, and TYS rely on the commuter affiliates of the major carriers to have any appreciable service at all. Gut reaction: WN and FL ain't foaming at the mouth to serve TYS or ROA.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 197):
Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

Your comments are always quite insightful and, I have found, one of very few folks here with reliable info on DL, Alitalia744. I was wondering when the forum might hear from you on this matter.

FWIW, here's my thoughts: (but what do I know)

Rather than acquire UA outright, DL, AA, NW, and CO put UA up on a carving block and haggle with each other over the pieces. UA as a whole may not fit well with any carrier, but one airline's trash is another's treasure and vice versa...One carrier gets the NRT slots, another gets 777 aircraft, still another gets the 747-400s, etc. The big questions in this case would be:

1) Labor-- Who has a job, and where? Pilots, obviously with whomever buys which aircraft...but if there aren't any takers on the 737-300/500s, (and, outside of CO, it's unlikely that anyone will want them) Flight attendants? Ground crews? Middle management at the hubs? If so, how are they integrated into existing seniority lists?

2) Hubsites--UA has excellent hubsites with massive amounts of O/D passengers as well as good sites for connecting passengers. The only question mark here, as I see it, could be DEN...could the increased competition from F9 and WN cause the other airlines in such a scenario to decide that DEN's not worth the trouble? Granted, it's a big market, but, hey, it's still no LAX, ORD, or IAD...

3) Brand Loyalty/Misc. Items-- UA has massive pull in the markets that it serves well, such as the D.C. area, Chicagoland, greater Denver, and California. What will happen to those consumers? Will the vacuum created by the loss of a UA open the door to a new competitor to step in and take the customer base? Will these areas (with the possible exception of Chicago) become "no man's lands" such as Boston, which are huge customer bases but have no single dominant airline present, assuming no one steps in and takes over the hubsite? What will happen to Mileage Plus, in such a scenario? Who would buy the miles? Would Chase be left holding the bag?

We do indeed live in interesting times.

EMB170 speaks only for himself; and means no disrespect to anyone.

Wouldn't it be ironic if AA were to negotiate the NRT slots and the Asian network they've wanted, but on the stipulation from SkyTeam members that they don't get the necessary aircraft to fly them?
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
platinumfoota
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:39 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:20 pm



Quoting Micstatic (Reply 191):
United would have to start upgrading the heck out of their airplanes. Delta is a tier above them domestically for the in-flight experience. If they lowered the quality to match current-United, the new airline would certainly lose customers.

Watch for UA new domestic interior in the coming years, starting with P.S  Wink
Never forget United 93
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:26 pm



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 202):
Because UA is a much better recognized brand throughout the US and the world

I think DL serves more countries than does United. Certainly more international destinations
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:42 pm



Quoting IADLHR (Reply 180):
Does anybody know exacftly how long it took for the US regulators, from the day UA/US applied for approval to merge,, to the day the ruling came down, to rule against the merger?

As I recall, the US DOJ never did rule on the merger. UA/US ended their merger discussions based on hints that it would not be approved, so there was no need for a formal ruling.
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3476
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:52 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
Good luck to CVG, SLC, and IAD if this happens....

SLC can nix any new airport development they are currently planning for, and CVG is toast, IAD should survive since it is far enough away from ATL and JFK.

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 208):
Hubsites--UA has excellent hubsites with massive amounts of O/D passengers as well as good sites for connecting passengers. The only question mark here, as I see it, could be DEN...could the increased competition from F9 and WN cause the other airlines in such a scenario to decide that DEN's not worth the trouble? Granted, it's a big market, but, hey, it's still no LAX, ORD, or IAD...

But SLC is no alternative to this one. DEN was built as a multi-airline hub, and should such a plan reach fruition (which I don't think it will), this would be the most logical path. Still further, SLC will likely become a large WN operation as a result of such a move, unless CO or AA take an interest in having a domestic hub further into the western states.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
platinumfoota
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:39 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:53 pm

Once again.

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 155):
Negative, they will not merge. This was talk between shareholders not management.

Pete McDonald spoke at LAX to all employees and said that management is not in talks, but shareholders who hold stocks in both DL and UA want a merger.
Never forget United 93
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26109
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:55 pm



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 194):

There is no common sense or rationale to much of your comments. The perspective of the DOT/DOJ has changed dramatically since UA and US tried to merge. In addition, neither can require an airline to sell capital assets such as aircraft (not to mention why would an airline want to sell valuable, long-haul aircraft). SLC and IAD are not slot restricted airports and there is nothing - outside of ground equipment - to sell. The airlines could be required to give up some gates, but I think they would voluntarily. The only area where possible issues exist is with DCA slots.

I just have to disagree. I think people here are trying to oversimplify how DOT/DOJ will look at this. It won't be that simple, and people against this will have no problem coming up with logical, and well though out arguments as to why a full merger should be disallowed. United and US Airways, IIRC, only competed on about 12-15 routes themselves. They didn't have much overlap outside of some in the Northeast with IAD/PHL. Times might have changed, and DOT/DOJ might become less harsh than they used to be. That doesn't mean it's going to be smooth sailing.

Just because an airport doesn't have slots doesn't mean that they can't sell those airport assets to another airline. They can sell the gate leases, they can sell select aircraft based there, the lounges, and transfer international route authorities, where applicable. It's not that they would be required to give up things, it's that they would do so voluntarily in a plan to appease authorities, just like UA and US had this huge plan to create a spin off airline and sell the Shuttle to try to make the authorities happy.
a.
 
continental180
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:39 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:58 pm



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 188):
The airline would be a Star Alliance member.

dont be so sure


Delta was a founding airline of SkyTeam. Should be intresting to see what happens.
 
EMB170
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 212):
But SLC is no alternative to this one. DEN was built as a multi-airline hub, and should such a plan reach fruition (which I don't think it will), this would be the most logical path. Still further, SLC will likely become a large WN operation as a result of such a move, unless CO or AA take an interest in having a domestic hub further into the western states.

Excellent point. Truthfully, either DEN or SLC could wind up with a bad case of "Boston Syndrome". DEN has much nicer facilities, a stronger local traffic base, and a great deal of loyal passengers. My point was that, if UA was not acquired "turn-key", but rather split up piecemeal with DL, AA, CO, NW, and possibly US, B6, WN, and F9 chewing off chunks and leaving what they didn't want "cafeteria style", would anyone other than WN or F9 really want to ramp up their DEN operations all that much? Especially given that your airline wouldn't have the customer loyalty in DEN that UA currently enjoys, would it be worth it to start from scratch like that?


EMB170, who currently plays a tap dancing steward not unlike an FA doing a safety demo in a musical production in South Jersey.

[Edited 2007-11-15 12:09:09]
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
sxf24
Posts: 991
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:07 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 214):
I just have to disagree. I think people here are trying to oversimplify how DOT/DOJ will look at this. It won't be that simple, and people against this will have no problem coming up with logical, and well though out arguments as to why a full merger should be disallowed. United and US Airways, IIRC, only competed on about 12-15 routes themselves. They didn't have much overlap outside of some in the Northeast with IAD/PHL. Times might have changed, and DOT/DOJ might become less harsh than they used to be. That doesn't mean it's going to be smooth sailing.

The problem with US/UA was WAS and the access to a restricted airport. The problem is significantly less with a DL/UA combo and the DOT/DOJ are looking at a completely different industry now, than in 2001.
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:46 pm



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 217):
The problem with US/UA was WAS and the access to a restricted airport. The problem is significantly less with a DL/UA combo and the DOT/DOJ are looking at a completely different industry now, than in 2001.

concentration still results in higher fares, worse service and employee furloughs, that hasnt changed since 2001.
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:54 pm



Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 213):
Pete McDonald spoke at LAX to all employees and said that management is not in talks, but shareholders who hold stocks in both DL and UA want a merger.

simply more eivdence that this deal or any deal is not in the best interest of employees, the airline or airport...it is shareholders who want a short term bump in the share price, so they can bail on a bad investment. It is out of control capitalism at its worst. Not only that but they want the deal done before Bush leaves office only 14 months from now....that all but guarantees the merger will be a gigantic failure.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:56 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 210):
I think DL serves more countries than does United. Certainly more international destinations

More cities yes but they have a weak presence in the most important business markets. And DL is more ambiguous than UA in terms of what country the airline represents.

Serving more cities doesn't mean better brand recognition where it matters.

Quoting Continental180 (Reply 215):
Delta was a founding airline of SkyTeam. Should be intresting to see what happens.

Yes but I think it's hard to argue that Star is a much better alliance. SkyTeam really only has a respectable presence in Europe and North America. Star is strong in all regions of the world, including places like Oceana and Southeast Asia where SkyTeam is notoriously weak.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14392
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:57 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 218):
concentration still results in higher fares, worse service and employee furloughs, that hasnt changed since 2001.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that concentration does increase fares or worsen service?

I'll buy employee furloughs, but alleviation of overcapacity results in job losses regardless of how it is accomplished. There is no question that a merger is better for employees than liquidation. Or do you disagree?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:58 pm



Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 134):
When you say profitable, do you mean to say that on a profit of $500 million per year, each airline will be able to replace their old fleets of hundreds of aircraft and provide for the demands of their workforce? Because it seems like a $20 billion dollar order is needed to replace these old fleets, which in 10-20 years time depending on teh airline and aircraft may not be airworthy or have the slightest chance of making money and from the AA page, pilots are demanding a 1.4 billion increase in wages every two years! While saving $5 on a ticket may be nice for you, think of all the employees and long term future of the airlines that are being expended for that savings.

the airline industry has never covered their cost of capital, a merger wont change that.
 
blackknight
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:01 pm



Quoting EMB170 (Reply 216):
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 212):
But SLC is no alternative to this one. DEN was built as a multi-airline hub, and should such a plan reach fruition (which I don't think it will), this would be the most logical path. Still further, SLC will likely become a large WN operation as a result of such a move, unless CO or AA take an interest in having a domestic hub further into the western states.

Excellent point. Truthfully, either DEN or SLC could wind up with a bad case of "Boston Syndrome". DEN has much nicer facilities, a stronger local traffic base, and a great deal of loyal passengers. My point was that, if UA was not acquired "turn-key", but rather split up piecemeal with DL, AA, CO, NW, and possibly US, B6, WN, and F9 chewing off chunks and leaving what they didn't want "cafeteria style", would anyone other than WN or F9 really want to ramp up their DEN operations all that much? Especially given that your airline wouldn't have the customer loyalty in DEN that UA currently enjoys, would it be worth it to start from scratch like that?


EMB170, who currently plays a tap dancing steward not unlike an FA doing a safety demo in a musical production in South Jersey.

[Edited 2007-11-15 12:09:09]

I have often leaked the capability of SLC here. If this happens SLC could react in 2 different paths. The first to lay down and let what happens, happen or revamp the expansion plans to adjust to the new future. ( I believe SLC will not be expanding in the next 2 decades if the merger takes place)

Notes: 46 million (Rounded) passengers used Denver in 2006. 21 million used SLC in 2006.
Denver had 13 connection or visiting passengers to every 1 origin and departure passenger. (Using 3.5 million population base within driving range of Denver)
SLC had 8 connection or visiting passengers to every 1 origin and departure passenger.(Using 2.6 million population base within driving range of SLC)
Numbers from the Metropolitan Statistical Areas of the United States of America collected from the last census.

That means a potential of 33.8 million passengers for SLC using the same ratios if all else was equal. This is an increase of 12.8 million pulling from the Mountain West connection traffic. Which without the merger or a different merger say CO or NW would have had promise. Many regard the Denver area as 50% to 75% larger than the SLC Area (Southern Idaho, Southwestern Wyoming, Logan Area, Provo Area, etc.) when in actuality it is only 25% larger.

I think United got wind of the pending negotiations for SLC and wants to protect it's mega-billion dollar Denver hub. In addition wanted to add Atlantic routes and slots. Some of which SLC would be stealing before DEN.
BK
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:26 pm



Quoting Blackknight (Reply 223):
Denver had 13 connection or visiting passengers to every 1 origin and departure passenger.

are you saying that less than 10% of the pax passing thru DEN are O&D???
 
NW748i
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:40 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:56 pm

An interesting article: "Delta CEO to testify before Congress"

Excerpts:
"U.S. Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-Ga.), whose district includes the highest number of Delta employees in the state, wants Anderson to confirm a statement Delta issued Wednesday saying that there are no merger talks with United..."

"A spokesman for U.S. Rep. Jerry Costello (D-Ill.), chairman of the subcommittee, said Wednesday evening that the focus of the hearing would be on the holiday travel preparations, but acknowledged that the topic of a Delta-United merger "could come up.""

Note the reaction of the Georgia rep. as opposed to the Illinois rep. This is most curious. ATL/Georgia is in a near-crazement over this merger prospect while ORD/Illinois hardly raises a brow.

Question: Why?

Serious, it's not like Atlanta's economy is reliant upon having a large airline headquartered there. They've got plenty of other companies. Certainly it's no Chicago as far as being a commercial center, but still I just don't understand the obsessive behavior when it comes to DL.

Edit:
Actually, here's answer to my question... hot off the press: "We don't want the family moving north," Westmoreland said. "We want to keep the family in Atlanta." Does this guy know the Civil War is over and that the slaves have been freed?

[Edited 2007-11-15 14:02:09]
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
CitrusCritter
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:06 pm



Quoting NW748i (Reply 225):
Serious, it's not like Atlanta's economy is reliant upon having a large airline headquartered there. They've got plenty of other companies. Certainly it's no Chicago as far as being a commercial center, but still I just don't understand the obsessive behavior when it comes to DL.

Replace ATL with MKE and DL with YX and you have your answer. Airlines are considered part of the community and it's a big prestige loss to lose a locally based one.
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26109
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:18 pm



Quoting NW748i (Reply 225):
Why?

Serious, it's not like Atlanta's economy is reliant upon having a large airline headquartered there. They've got plenty of other companies. Certainly it's no Chicago as far as being a commercial center, but still I just don't understand the obsessive behavior when it comes to DL.

It's a presitge factor. Back in 1991 when Miami lost Eastern and Pan Am to bankruptcy, it was a huge deal. Sure, Spirit is based in Miami now, and American employs more than Eastern and Pan Am did combined, but it's just not the same.
a.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:33 pm



Quoting NW748i (Reply 225):
Serious, it's not like Atlanta's economy is reliant upon having a large airline headquartered there. They've got plenty of other companies. Certainly it's no Chicago as far as being a commercial center, but still I just don't understand the obsessive behavior when it comes to DL.

 checkmark 

Boeing moved their HQ from Seattle to Chicago and it was a symbolic blow but didn't mean much in the scheme of things. ATL will still be a big hub whether they merge with UA or not. Although I can't blame DL's management for wanting to move away from ATL if this is true  duck .

Seriously though, if DL were acquired there would be some cause for worry in ATL. ATL certainly has decent O&D demand but the hub is definitely somewhat artificial. Without a huge hometown carrier like DL, ATL would never be as big as it is today. You combine with a carrier at hubs like ORD, IAD, etc. and all of a sudden ATL becomes less important to the overall network.

Quoting NW748i (Reply 225):
Actually, here's answer to my question... hot off the press: "We don't want the family moving north," Westmoreland said. "We want to keep the family in Atlanta." Does this guy know the Civil War is over and that the slaves have been freed?

Without getting too political here, I'll just say that you'd be surprised sometimes....
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:34 pm



Quoting NW748i (Reply 225):
Serious, it's not like Atlanta's economy is reliant upon having a large airline headquartered there

actually having DL HDQ in ATL is a huge selling point when trying to attract businesses to Georgia.
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:35 pm



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 228):
Although I can't blame DL's management for wanting to move away from ATL if this is true .

Why??????
 
avek00
Posts: 3245
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:40 pm

If DL moves any large part of its operation away from ATL, Georgia's economy goes into the Stone Age.
Live life to the fullest.
 
ORD Boy 2
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 12:25 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:45 pm

I would be equally disheartened if UAL moved down to Georgia and was no longer "Chicago's Hometown Airline" It is a pride issue but I would also at least from a yocal locals prospective be heartened that in any merger ORD is NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!! Plus then if UA/DL or UA/CO happens, I can stop complaining about UAL not serving TLV!
 
User avatar
RedTailDTW
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:48 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 196):
Why does everyone think the name needs to be United?

Well we could just call the airline DELITED.  Smile



Mason
Airlines Flown: 9E, AA, B6, CO, DL, G7, HP, MQ, NW, RP, UA, US, WN, YX / Aircraft Flown: 737-200/300/700/800, 757-200/300, 777-200, A319/A320/A321, CRJ-200/900, DC-9-30/50, DC-10-40, ERJ 140/145, E170, MD80/83/90
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3476
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:49 pm



Quoting Blackknight (Reply 223):
I have often leaked the capability of SLC here. If this happens SLC could react in 2 different paths. The first to lay down and let what happens, happen or revamp the expansion plans to adjust to the new future. ( I believe SLC will not be expanding in the next 2 decades if the merger takes place)

Right now as it stands, SLC barely has enough terminal space to handle the O&D load it usually gets each year which is roughly 10-12 million (similar to PDX the last I checked). So I think you would see them do something, UNLESS WN is the only taker, and they would clearly turn SLC into the sort of operation they have at BWI, MDW. As it stands right now, SLC is a cheap airport, and WN loves cheap airports. But if SLC has a viable plan for a rebuild and expansion, that is lower in cost than most past airport rebuilds such as PIT, MIA or SEA, then I can't rule out CO or AA making a run at starting something at SLC should a UA+DL jettison it in favor of DEN. SLC is just too big a market now for an STL or PIT to completely happen to since in addition to what size it has (roughly 2.5 million people), it's geographical location makes it a catch.
But right now you only have two large hedge fund investors trying to push such talks, and I think a UA+DL hookup will run into larger issues than UA+US did, especially with the DOJ no matter which party is in control of the executive branch. If there is any consolidation, it will be one of the larger carriers like DL swallowing a smaller one such as NW where it is more advantageous market and network wise. I think Gerry Grinstein and his leadership team knew what they were doing 9-12 months ago when they told HP+US and Doug Parker to go jump in the lake. Grinstein hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out that would be the worst possible scenario for DL.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
blackknight
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:51 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 224):
are you saying that less than 10% of the pax passing thru DEN are O&D???

No its the ratio of population to usage ie) 46 million passengers in 2006 to 3.5 million available population. Options include:

1) Vacation travel to the Denver area
2) Population travels more
3) Large amount of connection traffic
4) Business travel
BK
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:18 am

Maybe its posted someplace in over 200 posts above but I read today in two places there ARE NO merger talks
with Delta and United ........HOWEVER airline anylist say a merger with DL and UA or NW will be a positive step and a good business move.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:37 am

This is bunk.

Wishful thinking on the part of someone at United, most likely.

I get Air Transport World daily news and while a stakeholder in both United and Delta (an airline analyst) suggested merger discussions, no merger discussions have taken place as of today. Delta's board did authorize looking into this merger possibility, according to the report...but no discussions have been authorized.

United has been looking for a merger partner for over a year; it is the only way they can get out of their situation. I've said this for awhile...they cannot repay the loans the way they were structured at the time of the reorganization and unless they do something before 2011, they will be out of business (based on my analysis done last year...I still believe that to be the case). Tilton may be starting to get desperate.

With fuel at $90/barrel, there is significant pressure on airlines to continue to lower non-fuel costs in order to stay competitive. Also, with the US dollar in the toilet, US carriers are in a weaker position than carriers in Europe and Asia who are making nice profits despite the current situation. This may force some kind of consolidation in the industry, but I don't see how consolidation is going to make that much difference; economies of scale in a merger take years to become meaningful, so looking at mergers now doesn't solve today's problem, but it might make for stronger US carriers in the 5-8 year out period, in my opinion.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
daron4000
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:17 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:44 am



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 176):
Other airlines may buy pieces of DL/UA, like the RR Delta 777-200ER airplane. Delta and UA have little route overlap internationlly and within the USA. I just don't see what they would have to give up like LHR or NRT slots since UA has most of those & DL has almost none, one at NRT and 3 at LHR in March 2008. ORD, LGA and DCA slots may be given up to appease the critics but they don't overlap on shuttles or DL's north - south versus UA LGA and DCA to ORD and Denver flights. If another airline wants SLC or CVG they can buy the hub from DL. Terminal space at LAX may be on the table but these are small things relative to the whole merger. If another airline wants a route to China or Japan that may be a price to consider or call the whole thing off. I can see the folks in Texas at AA & CAL headquarters doing the Asia Calculus as how to get those new Atlanta to PVG and PEK routes swithched to them. The airline world series has began.

I would find it very ironic if the government made either airline give up their China routes given that many airlines had to apply for coveted slots and the DOT chose the airline that would provide the most benefits to consumers and to the United States. To renig on these conclusions would be a sign of weakness and hypocracy for the DOT, no?

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 178):
I know you keep saying that NWA's Japan rights are restrictive and only the Northwest name can own the rights. This pure BS and an A.net myth. Do you have anything at all to back up your statement. Just because you keep saying it, does not make it so!!!

I believe he works for UA in Japan and his facts are usally pretty accurate.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 191):
United would have to start upgrading the heck out of their airplanes. Delta is a tier above them domestically for the in-flight experience. If they lowered the quality to match current-United, the new airline would certainly lose customers.

Then why did UA make such a large profit for the 3rd quarter when compared to thier peers and have such high load factors? It must be because their customer service and hard product is so terrible when compared to Delta...

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 210):
I think DL serves more countries than does United. Certainly more international destinations

That doesn't mean that the brand is more recognized. Flying 1 daily 757 to smaller international cities vs. multiple 747's to the largest financial and political cities of the world means that UA does in fact have more brand recognition. True, they have given up smaller markets in Latin America and they have ceded some of the smaller European markets to their partner, Lufthansa, but with their extensive codeshare, all LH flyers are familiar with UA, all Asian flyers are familiar with UA and their huge presence, UA is the only airline flying to Australia, they are one of 2 to fly to Heathrow, and they are a founding member of the largest alliance.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 214):
Just because an airport doesn't have slots doesn't mean that they can't sell those airport assets to another airline. They can sell the gate leases, they can sell select aircraft based there, the lounges, and transfer international route authorities, where applicable. It's not that they would be required to give up things, it's that they would do so voluntarily in a plan to appease authorities, just like UA and US had this huge plan to create a spin off airline and sell the Shuttle to try to make the authorities happy.

While this is true, even if the government took away gates or slots or route authorities, is there any excess capacity in the market available to pick up this slack. For example, if the government took away 100 slots at ORD and gave them to AA or CO or NW, other routes would be cut in order to serve these new routes. Thus, there is no tangible beneftit and really it would be more simple if the operations remained as is.

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 162):
Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
And SFO is by far more profitable for UA than LAX

But it is already a hub or focus city for BOTH of the airlines. It makes way more sense than SFO.



Again you give no financial reasoning why this makes sense, only because they both have small focus cities. Maybe someone will correct me but as it is, it would appear that UA is bigger at SFO than UA and DL are at LAX. Nevertheless, more flights don't always mean more money, especially in LA where there is such a competitive atmosphere against UA, AA, and SW.

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
IAD is making boatloads of money right now

What, from a once maybe twice a day RJ to their n/s cities except for other UA hubs.[/quote]

No, from all of their new international routes that they have started due to the fact that there is no competition from any other carrier. Of course, you would know this too if you bothered to listen to the quarterly earnings conference calls, rather than just list out mindless suppositions that you try and pass as fact.
 
micstatic
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:04 am



Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 238):
Then why did UA make such a large profit for the 3rd quarter when compared to thier peers and have such high load factors? It must be because their customer service and hard product is so terrible when compared to Delta...

I'm not an airline employee, nor shareholder. I just tell you as a passenger United's domestic product is dismal. Delta used to be just the same a few years ago, I agree. But it's a much different ballgame now. To sum up, my point is on quality of the flight as opposed to financial.
micstatic
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:05 am



Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 161):
And SFO is by far more profitable for UA than LAX, hence the reason why UA chose to make it thier Asian gateway, while pulling down LAX at the same time in the late 90's.

UA is still quite committed to LAX and it's interesting that you brought it up. This year they've added LAX-FRA and LAX-HKG as well as additional domestic services. They've also shown interest in serving China directly from LAX. Even though SFO is the prime Asian hub, LAX is certainly doing well.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:08 am



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 188):
-The airline would be a Star Alliance member.

I'm sure AF (as well as other SkyTeam) members would have something to say about it. Especially given it is going to start "revenue sharing" with DL on flights to LHR (and probably other locations)......
"Up the Irons!"
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:17 am



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 228):
Boeing moved their HQ from Seattle to Chicago and it was a symbolic blow but didn't mean much in the scheme of things. ATL will still be a big hub whether they merge with UA or not. Although I can't blame DL's management for wanting to move away from ATL if this is true

ok so not a songle person would lose a job if the HQ was moved?
 
BAKJet
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:58 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:22 am



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
Prediction: This goes nowhere

Hopefully
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:53 am

Part 2: DL & UA In Merger Talks! (by Lrdc9 Nov 15 2007 in Civil Aviation)
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Delta And UA Now In Merger Talks

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:54 am



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 68):
Even a merged UA/DL doesnt reach places like Valencia, Spain or Lyon France without a partner

DL is due to begin Malaga and Lyon service early next year.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airlineaddict, Avgeek21, b4thefall, Baidu [Spider], fathernewman, Google Adsense [Bot], Jos227, lammified, LaunchDetected, Legs, Lennundus, mr1006, Opus99, qf789, Strato2, tullamarine and 203 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos