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BAOPS777
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BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:10 pm

Hi all just attended shadowing day at waterside. Interesting was the new routes BA are doing feasibility studies on at present for start in 2009/2010. They are:

LHR-ICN Starting with 3-4 x weekly and looking towards daily operation. Due to this becoming an emerging market.

LHR-KUL To start with operating via SIN using current BA011/BA012 flight daily. This is due to improvement in Malaysia's economy.

LHR-KIX 4-5 x weekly to start. However thing BA would be happy with a JSA with JL on this and NRT route like the one the currently have with QF

LHR-EZE reinstating the direct service that was withdrawn after the collapse in Argentina's economy 4 x weekly to start.

LHR-GIG reinstating direct services 3 x weekly due to the strengthening Brazilian economy

If both routes where to start BA would still operate 7 x weekly to GRU which is a very high yielding route. Also the current LHR/GRU/EZE route operates nearly always full on all sectors and with traffic rights from GRU to EZE BA makes alot of money on this sector so BA may operate the LHR/EZE direct 4 x weekly and on the other 3 days still operate the LHR/GRU/EZE route.



Other new routes on BA watch list are:

LHR/ATQ and AMD in India
LHR/KHI in Pakistan
LGW/LAS

Also when the new aircraft come in they want increased frequency on the following routes

LHR/HKG from 3-4 x daily ( Desperately needed additional frequency)
LHR to AUH/BAH/DOH/MCT Direct instead of the current AUH/MCT and BAH/DOH double drop flights
LHR/YVR 2 x daily year round.
LHR/JNB from 14 x weekly to 17 or 18
LHR/CPT from the present 14 x weekly in winter to 17 and 7x weekly in summer to 10.

So once the new aircraft arriving starting with the 4 x 772 due in 2009. We should start hearing of some new routes.

Going back next week and they said did I have any ideas can't think of any new routes that BA could make a go of apart from the one above can you??
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:19 pm

They've told MIA (as they will need a second gate at the time) that they plan to resume the third frequency, BA 204/205, in Nov08, so hopefully that happens.
a.
 
steve6666
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:22 pm

Very interesting. Any indication of what equipment for what routes? And where are the slots coming from?

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
GRU which is a very high yielding route

I should say so - I paid £5400 for a J class return the other week...
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Motorhussy
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:26 pm



Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-KUL

I'd have thought a follow on from BKK would be more effective.

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-ICN

Very surprised they aren't already.

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-KIX

Good idea as codeshare with JL and QF.
come visit the south pacific
 
threepoint
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:30 pm

Does BA have the ability to use that many more slots at Heathrow? One would think theyr'e in short supply.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
vv701
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:33 pm

Throughout this year BA have had on almost all days two 744s out of service at CWL being fitted out with AVOD and the New Club World Seats. I guess that for the first half to three quarters of next year they will have two 772s at any one time at CWL undergoing a similar conversion. But it does mean that they should have extra long haul capacity from the start of the next winter schedule and before the delivery of their four new 772s.

So is there any possibility that some of the new BA services said to be for 2009-10 might be operational by this time next year?
 
by738
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:33 pm

Could BA do Hawaii direct but via somewhere in the US ( if you know what I mean)
 
aviasian
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:37 pm



Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 3):
I'd have thought a follow on from BKK would be more effective.

One of BA's two LHR-SIN service is a terminator flight while the BA flight to BKK already continues on to SYD. By extending the SIN terminator flight to KUL, no additional equipment is involved and KUL is served with very minimal additional expense compared to adding a new flight via BKK.

KC Sim
 
anstar
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:37 pm



Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 3):
I'd have thought a follow on from BKK would be more effective.

I think SIN is much more of a oneworld hub.

The 777 that would fly to SIN could carry KUL pax as well as all the Australian connecitons.

BKK would only offer a SYD or KUL conneciton.
 
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B742
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:42 pm



Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 3):
d have thought a follow on from BKK would be more effective.

They cannot without moving or cutting the tag-on to SYD from BKK. Bangkok flights run onto Sydney.
One of the SIN flights terminate therefore allowing BA to operate to KLIA if they wanted.

I've often wondered if BA could reach for more frequencies to BKK however.

Quoting BY738 (Reply 6):
Could BA do Hawaii direct but via somewhere in the US ( if you know what I mean)

They could yes, but however it is extremely unlikely. They would much rather just codeshare with OneWorld partner AA to Hawaii. Also US immigration laws would make one-stop flights in the US extremely complicated for passengers.

Hope to see a return to LAS also  Smile

Rob!  wave 
 
kaitak
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:43 pm

With the change in operations at LHR to mixed mode, the aircraft is to get a significantly higher number of slots (I've heard 16%); BA will have to bid for these like everyone else, but doubtless they'll get a few. If they don't get as many as they want, they can cut back a few short haul flights, e.g. use two 767s instead of three 757s/A321s on GLA or EDI. Long haul is where the readies are made, so it doesn't surprise me that they want to expand there.

I'd see ICN as possible (although both Korean carriers have good service there), KIX is probably most likely a c/s with JL; perhaps NGO instead?

Good to see growth continuing, wherever they go.
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:50 pm



Quoting Steve6666 (Reply 2):
Very interesting. Any indication of what equipment for what routes? And where are the slots coming from?

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
GRU which is a very high yielding route

I should say so - I paid �5400 for a J class return the other week...

GIG/EZE more than likely on 777 config 13F/48J/32W/127M
GRU would revert to the same 777 however they would look at loads as J is very popular product to South America
EZE will be very popular so could see it being upgraded to daily quickly and then probably to a high J 747 14F/70J/30W/177Y as is currently used on the GRU route.

KUL - as BA011/012 now 747 14F/52J/36W/235M, ICN & KIX on 4 class 777 13F/28J/32W/127M,
LAS/AMD/AHQ/KHI would start on 3 class 777 config 36J/24W/212M

MCT/DOH/AUH Possibly on 767 and early 787's
BAH on High J 747 as present. BA has a number of big money contracts in BAH.
Additional HKG/JNB/CPT more that likely on 744 but possibly summer CPT on 777 and the HKG a 777 to start with.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 3):
Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-KUL

I'd have thought a follow on from BKK would be more effective.

There is enough revenue on the route to support the current LHR/BKK/SYD route. BA tried a 4 x weekly direct 7-8 years ago didnt work infact hemereged money this may be a option if the LHR/BKK/SYD is changed to 777 then yes this may work.

Since BA changed the 747 to 777 on the LHR/SIN/SYD route they have saved millions in fuel as the 777 burn ALOT less fuel on this route also the ratio of premium products F/J/W to M pax is greater meaning better revenue per seat.
 
flyguy1
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:50 pm

Any news on project "Lauren"?
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HUYfan
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:52 pm

I heard BA were sniffing around Saudi again. Anyone heard the same?

Regards

Mike
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:11 am



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 4):
Does BA have the ability to use that many more slots at Heathrow? One would think theyr'e in short supply.

You are right at the moment slots are in short supply. Once the A380 arrives BA will cut frequency on some routes but still be able to fly the same number of pax. Also short haul flights can be cut in frequency and further codeshare agreements entered for example LHR/BRU (SN) currently 8 x daily and BUD (MA) 3 x daily. Leisure routes such as PRG/BUD freeing up 6 pairs of slots would see greater frequency ex LGW where BA can get slots easier and cost base is cheaper. Next summer (08) will see some routes to USA operating with higher frequency e.g the IAD however these are being operated on 767 a/c once the new equipment arrives they can upgrade the offering of daily 1 x 744,1x777 and 1x767 and 2 x weekly 777 and 1 x weekly 767 to 2 x daily 747 and 3x weekly in 767. freeing up 7 return slots

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
They've told MIA (as they will need a second gate at the time) that they plan to resume the third frequency, BA 204/205, in Nov08, so hopefully that happens.

Very possible but the same was asked last year and service was cancelled before it started

Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):
Throughout this year BA have had on almost all days two 744s out of service at CWL being fitted out with AVOD and the New Club World Seats. I guess that for the first half to three quarters of next year they will have two 772s at any one time at CWL undergoing a similar conversion. But it does mean that they should have extra long haul capacity from the start of the next winter schedule and before the delivery of their four new 772s.

Not all the current 777's will have AVOD. They will all get new seats once BA has figured out how they can fit the new J seat in the 777. All the aircraft with the G-MIIS inflight entertainment system will not be upgraded. Only the the ones with the current Rockwell Collins System will be upgraded the a/c not getting the upgrade are G-RAES, G-ZZZA-C and G-VIIA - N due to the high cost and the longer time it would take to rewire the a/c the board decided the business case was not that strong. These a/c will be deployed on routes such as CAI/DXB/TLV etc where the current 12 channel systems looped to offer 24 choices during the flight would be sufficient. Once 2009 comes around it will be equivalent of having 6 a/c entering the fleet.
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 14):

Very possible but the same was asked last year and service was cancelled before it started

Yes, indeed. After TAM announced LHR-GRU, they moved the extra MIA-LHR capacity to make GRU-LHR 10x weekly.

[Edited 2007-11-15 16:29:37]
a.
 
anstar
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:14 am



Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 12):
Any news on project "Lauren"?

No news yet, but this will be done with existing aircraft (757's)
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:37 am



Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 12):
Any news on project "Lauren"?

No news as yet they are still keeping it very under wraps. If I hear anything will let you know

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 13):
I heard BA were sniffing around Saudi again. Anyone heard the same?

BA would love to re enter this market. BA made alot of money on these routes before it pulled out. However it pulled out at the request of High Level members of the intelligence service. The Saudis didn't take the act of terrorism against a British airline let alone the flag carrier seriously. BA decided the risk was not worth the profit and ceased all Saudi routes. These have now been taken over BMI successfully. BA would only return if the attitude of the Saudi government changed toward Al Quaeda and foreign aviation security

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 10):
nge in operations at LHR to mixed mode, the aircraft is to get a significantly higher number of slots (I've heard 16%); BA will have to bid for these like everyone else, but doubtless they'll get a few. If they don't get as many as they want, they can cut back a few short haul flights, e.g. use two 767s instead of three 757s/A321s on GLA or EDI

BA domestic schedule to LHR is very popular with business and leisure pax EDI is one of BA's most profitable routes with 752 operating a large number of flights in the summer. As with JFK the thing that attracts business pax to this route is that they know the product they will receive and also that during peak times flights are every hour making it easy to change to earlier of later flights to suit there schedule. However saying that the big success story for BA over the last two years has been there EDI/LCY route that has gone from three x daily to eight x daily in two years the first two flights ex EDI operate at 100% load factor Monday to Wednesday and nearly 95% Thursday and Friday also there three evening flights ex LCY operate at around 85% load factor daily. On most Thursday and Fridays the last three to four flights operate full some of them selling out two weeks in advance.
So if BA increase there LCY/ EDI offering from eight to ten they probably could remove one am departure and one afternoon/eveing departure such as the BA1434/BA1441 in the am and the BA1454/BA1463 in the evening and then they would sell the EDI slots or swap them for a extra early AM slots so they could operate three departures before 8am ex EDI. Also a evening slot to operate a flight between the current last two flight ex LCY 18:05 and 20:15, probably around 19:00.
 
threepoint
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:38 am

Thank you BAOPS777. Some of the stuff I realised (the 380 adjustments), but the further consolidation makes sense, especially to shorthaul destinations.
Kaitak mentioned 'mixed mode' operations at Heathrow. Can anybody provide a link to where I can read more about this?

[Edited 2007-11-15 16:48:05]
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:43 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Yes, indeed. After TAM announced LHR-GRU, they moved the extra MIA-LHR capacity to make GRU-LHR 10x weekly.

Unless extra capacity can be found before winter 08 think the revenue on the GRU will win and the service will stay 10 x weekly I am afraid to say at the cost of extra MIA flights.

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
Quoting BY738 (Reply 6):
Could BA do Hawaii direct but via somewhere in the US ( if you know what I mean)

They could yes, but however it is extremely unlikely. They would much rather just codeshare with OneWorld partner AA to Hawaii. Also US immigration laws would make one-stop flights in the US extremely complicated for passengers.

Very true the current AA codeshare ex LA serves BA and it's pax well. Remember if BA operated the route all pax would have to get off clear imigration, customs and re check bags anyway so the passengers would have to get off anyway so rather than send the a/c on another leg to HNL send back to LHR makes more money that way.

Hopefully I have managed to answer everyones questions so far. If I haven't I do apologies but there have been alot of them
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:48 am



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 18):
Kaitak mentioned 'mixed mode' operations at Heathrow. Can anybody provide a link to where I can read more about this?

All I can find are these links

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-040107c.htm
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Heathrow_Airport

For the wikipedia one to find the info click on 2.5 Access and it is the paragraph just above the access topic header

Hope this helps a bit
 
threepoint
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 20):
Hope this helps a bit

Very much, thanks again. It means what I thought it meant, just wanted to clarify.
I can understand the opposition from those affected by aircraft noise, but surely this is a less controversial plan than building the third runway on the north side.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:11 am



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 21):

Very much, thanks again. It means what I thought it meant, just wanted to clarify.
I can understand the opposition from those affected by aircraft noise, but surely this is a less controversial plan than building the third runway on the north side.

That is the thoughts of many operators in LHR. It is not a matter of if LHR gets it's third runway it is when. The airport is the biggest and busiest two operational runway airport in europe and LGW is the busiest one operational runway airport in europe.

Remember LHR is not a 24 hours airport. All take off need to be completed by 23:00 and no flights can land before 04:00 then only a handful of slots are available until 6am.
The UK goverment won't sit back and watch it's strong economy become weaker due to poor transport links. The only other option is a super airport for London built from scratch but the question is where is could be sited so it is near the capital and not gonna affect people with the noise.

ALSO HAVE HAD A FEW PRIVATE MESSAGES SAYING DO I THINK I SHOULD BE PUTTING THIS INFORMATION ON THE INTERNET??


Answer: ALL the info I have put on here has been discussed in the past either in the media by BA execs for instance increased capacity to JNB/HKG/CPT was talked about when the A380 was ordered. Destanations in India/ Pakistan have been discussed since India allowed more flights in and since BA resumed service to ISB.

Middle east services where discussed when BA announced recently increasing services from LHR/DXB to 20 per week and even though I have mentioned KIX/KUL/ICN/EZE aswell as chating about these on my visit these as I was told when I visited where on wikepedia under BA for the last year until BA announced there extra US flights and terminal changes for flights then wikepedia removed them. There is some info I have been told that I cant Divulge and I won't as this info could hurt future routes.

Finally no one has answered the question in my first post.

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
Going back next week and they said did I have any ideas can't think of any new routes that BA could make a go of apart from the one above can you??

??????????
 
flyyul
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:36 am

Any chance of BA upping the frequency to YUL?

They flew 10 weekly 777 in the summer of 2006.. oddly enough though, they flew wingtips 2200 and 2225 departures on the simultaneous days of operation.
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:58 am



Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 23):
Any chance of BA upping the frequency to YUL?

They flew 10 weekly 777 in the summer of 2006.. oddly enough though, they flew wingtips 2200 and 2225 departures on the simultaneous days of operation.

Can't see it this is a route that is AF speciality due to the whole french Canadian link. Alot of BA pax transfer through LHR from places such as NCE/CDG/LYS. The 10 weekly wasn't a success. Hence why it did not return this year. The times where due to the slots available from the Canadian and British aviation authorities. BA would have preferred the first flight to operate as present winter one. Depart LHR 15:35 arr YUL 17:55 . Then depart YUL 19:45 arr LHR 07:10. They would have liked the second one to operate a little like this. Depart LHR at around 19:00 arr in YUL at around 21:45 and depart YUL around 23:30 arrive 11:00 and arrive LHR at 06:15 ish. The extra service then would have complemented the existing service. To be honest the 7x weekly is not doing that great can see that being downsized to a 767 before to long. Rather than a cut in frequency.
 
flyyul
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:02 am



Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 24):
To be honest the 7x weekly is not doing that great

What are you basing this on? Based on your perception or actual flight profitability that you have seen?
 
N1120A
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:08 am



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 4):
Does BA have the ability to use that many more slots at Heathrow? One would think theyr'e in short supply.

BA are pretty much the only airline that don't have a slot problem at Heathrow

Quoting BY738 (Reply 6):
Could BA do Hawaii direct but via somewhere in the US ( if you know what I mean)

They could do it non-stop if they wanted, but the money just isn't there to be made. They are better off just connecting with AA
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
threepoint
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:19 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
BA are pretty much the only airline that don't have a slot problem at Heathrow

Which contradicts the answer I received a dozen posts ago - perhaps you mean BA has the best ability to rework existing slots to maximise revenue? BA is likely unique at LHR as they can consolidate flight frequencies to various destinations and/or assign flights to Gatwick, but the point remains that there likely aren't unused Heathrow slots in the flyable hours just awaiting a carrier to claim them.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
N1120A
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:24 am



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
perhaps you mean BA has the best ability to rework existing slots to maximise revenue?

BA have the most slots at Heathrow, by far, which allows them to be more flexible. Further, they have the ability to shift O&D traffic to other airports, like you mentioned.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:45 am



Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 25):
What are you basing this on? Based on your perception or actual flight profitability that you have seen?

According to the seat rev info from the half yearly figures released a couple of weeks ago. Out of all the North American stations it is towards the bottom of the profitability list. Also from a comment by more than one of the ground agents and manager in YUL and YYZ.
However I think YYZ are wanting the 767 that operates to YYZ to be swapped with the YUL 777 to give what they believe is much needed seats on the YYZ. BA is heavily advertising the route in France and Canada with an aim to increase pax usuage

BA will probably put a 767 on in due course or the 787-8 when it comes into service for a short time. They use this a/c rebuild the revenue base on the service and if the load factor improves which it would. A larger a/c would then be utilised on the service.
At some point or other it has happend to a few North America routes, PHL/ORD/EWR/YYZ and soon IAD for example.

Remember the 767 is configured 24J/24W/141M They all are already have AVOD and rarely have IFE failure compared to the new AVOD on the 747 and soon some of 777 Which has been what can only be described as a nightmare.
 
flyyul
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:51 am

Ok thxs for the info BAops. PHL/IAD/YYZ all have multi-freq which is conducive to 767 ops. Of course YUL/DEN will have lowest profitability, since they have smallest J cabins (36J) and no F.

But all in all, very interesting info. Thxs for sharing.
 
albird87
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:00 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
They've told MIA (as they will need a second gate at the time) that they plan to resume the third frequency, BA 204/205, in Nov08, so hopefully that happens.

Would be good to see another BA flight here at MIA but i think that AA will be first to start the next daily rotation to LHR from MIA. Well needed also!!
 
cloudyapple
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:21 am



Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 3):
I'd have thought a follow on from BKK would be more effective.

And of course a quick change from BA25 to CX721 at HKG is the quickest, most direct and most preferred routing.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
Viscount724
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:46 am



Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-ICN Starting with 3-4 x weekly and looking towards daily operation. Due to this becoming an emerging market.

If memory correct, BA previously served ICN but dropped it at the time of the Asian financial crisis around 1998.
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:54 am



Quoting Albird87 (Reply 31):
Would be good to see another BA flight here at MIA but i think that AA will be first to start the next daily rotation to LHR from MIA. Well needed also!!

AA would love to run another rotation, and attempted to get slots to do so starting this summer, but they couldn't get the slots and don't want to take them from another current route (they already had to reduce JFK-LHR to add DFW/RDU, since they only were able to purchase one slot at good times). AA would love another 3-4 Heathrow slots, though I don't think BA is going to help them out in that department.
a.
 
BAOPS777
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:02 am



Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 30):
Ok thxs for the info BAops. PHL/IAD/YYZ all have multi-freq which is conducive to 767 ops. Of course YUL/DEN will have lowest profitability, since they have smallest J cabins (36J) and no F.

But all in all, very interesting info. Thxs for sharing.

Thats ok BA may put the 767 during low periods to start and look at forward bookings and tailor the a/c accordingly. DEN actually does ok infact better than ok. I know that for the winter ski season there are few flights operating with F but sold as J in a 62J/40W/124Y Config as they can sell J well at that time of the year but there is no real demand for F

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 32):
And of course a quick change from BA25 to CX721 at HKG is the quickest, most direct and most preferred routing.

However a 40 minute connex time in HKG. Not really enough time. Say it was

LHR/HKG/KUL would take 16hrs 40mins the LHR/SIN/KUL would take 15hrs 20mins that includes 90 min transit time. Also less chance of bags going missing because they would remain on the plane.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):

If memory correct, BA previously served ICN but dropped it at the time of the Asian financial crisis around 1998.

That is correct
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:04 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Yes, indeed. After TAM announced LHR-GRU, they moved the extra MIA-LHR capacity to make GRU-LHR 10x weekly.

This is seasonal only as the same year. By march 08 will be back to 7x weekly again.

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-EZE reinstating the direct service that was withdrawn after the collapse in Argentina's economy 4 x weekly to start.

LHR-GIG reinstating direct services 3 x weekly due to the strengthening Brazilian economy

Good to see BA looking for diversification instead of just adding frequencies to GRU. The effect is the same, but they can get more frequent flyers from both Rio and Buenos Aires.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:43 am

With the Open Skies Agreement that the UK has recently signed with Singapore, BA could effectively (from end-March 2008) base aircraft in Singapore to operate to any other cities it chooses.

Perhaps BA should or is already considering this option.

KC Sim
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:21 am



Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR-ICN Starting with 3-4 x weekly and looking towards daily operation. Due to this becoming an emerging market

I've said before on this forum that I think this is a winner. I went to Seoul a couple of weeks ago (coming back via HKG), with Korean Air and the flight was 90% full (mostly Korean businessmen). Fares from LHR to ICN are not very cheap compared to routes of a similar length (perfect market for BA) and Korea is an emerging market for both business and leisure (both UK to Korea and Korea to UK). I would also imagine that the route would do well in cargo. By starting with 4 weekly flights they are already providing an as competitive service as Asiana.

Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR/HKG from 3-4 x daily ( Desperately needed additional frequency)

This is definately much needed. I fly to HK a lot and over the past few years (in particuarly the past year) it has become increasing difficult to non-rev as the BA flights are constantly going out full. Last week I used Cathay from HKG as all BA's flights were busy. Even the morning Cathay flight was pretty full. I am hoping to non-rev to HKG in 3 weeks time (around 18 days before Christmas) and the flights are already showing low-availability. It seems that instead of going to the US, British tourists are heading to Hong Kong instead.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
If memory correct, BA previously served ICN but dropped it at the time of the Asian financial crisis around 1998.

Yep, along with KIX I believe.
 
BAOPS777
Topic Author
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:31 am

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:40 am

Hey all going away for 7-10 days now so will not be able to answer all questions on this thread if you have any just message me
 
theginge
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:43 am



Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):
Throughout this year BA have had on almost all days two 744s out of service at CWL being fitted out with AVOD and the New Club World Seats. I guess that for the first half to three quarters of next year they will have two 772s at any one time at CWL undergoing a similar conversion. But it does mean that they should have extra long haul capacity from the start of the next winter schedule and before the delivery of their four new 772s.

As BA have 57 744's in their fleet there will always be 1 or 2 constantly at Cardiff for maintenance and this will continue right through until the fleet reduces in size after 2012.

Slots wise remember BA have about 6-8 pairs a day coming their way in 2008-2010 after the deal with BMED/BMI earlier this year so that will provide a alot of the growth.
In the next 10 years I think the shorthaul program will be reduced further, it could be in 15 years time that BA's domestic program is reduced to just Scotland freeing up more slots.

I think some of these routes will start in 2010 when the 787 comes into service.
 
APYu
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:29 am



Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LGW/LAS

It would be good if they added a few more leisure routes at LGW and I'm sure LAS would be a good one to try. Its sad that next year there will be so few 777's at LGW and fingers crossed some leisure routes are being considered in the future when BA have a few more planes to play on new routes with. While they might not make loads of money to the leisure destinations the much lower cost of operating such flights ex LGW must bring in some cash or Orlando wouldnt be seeing the increase next year.

Im trying to think of other possible leisure destinations they could do from LGW. Seychelles springs to mind, lots of year round holiday makers with spare cash who would happily pay leisure Club fares to avoid going via DXB. If they did that maybe Mauritius may move to LGW too? I never did understand why that had to go from LHR - Surely all those rich people who want to avoid paying tax can afford a limo round to Crawley.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
basrabob
Posts: 32
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:08 pm

One country that everybody seems to have overlooked is Vietnam . This could be serviced thru HKG as an extn of the BA services . Or is it too specialised & should be left to CX to be done as a One world service?

Also what about the Phillipines? Again will they risk it , or will they leave to CX to service their flights as transfer traffic ?

My thoughts are that they will leave CX to it , but both LH & AF are making a good fist of it .
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1790
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:17 pm



Quoting Theginge (Reply 40):
In the next 10 years I think the shorthaul program will be reduced further, it could be in 15 years time that BA's domestic program is reduced to just Scotland freeing up more slots.

Well BA needs the European feeder. I don't think BA can survive without wealthy feed from FRA, AMS, CDG or GVA.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
anstar
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:37 pm



Quoting Aviasian (Reply 37):
With the Open Skies Agreement that the UK has recently signed with Singapore, BA could effectively (from end-March 2008) base aircraft in Singapore to operate to any other cities it chooses.

I doubt BA would base aircraft in SIN. Esp as it is fll of LCC's such as Jetstar, Tiger etc and well served by their partner QF
 
nickrose87
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:15 pm

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:22 pm

how about BA bringing back flights to MAN to show they do aint just a london airline.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:45 pm



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 21):
I can understand the opposition from those affected by aircraft noise, but surely this is a less controversial plan than building the third runway on the north side.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
BA are pretty much the only airline that don't have a slot problem at Heathrow

This is a fairly farcical statement. Start bt recognising that LHR is BA's home hub and has been effectively since the airport was opened following World War II. Next recognise that LHR is capacity and slot constrained as unlike most other major international airports it has only two runways. Now accept that because the approach to the airport is over central London and its highly populated western suburbs it has a strictly enforced night curfew from 11.30 pm until 6.30 am that reduces its natural capacity by up to almost 30 per cent.

In BA terms recognise that with around 40 per cent of LHR slots it has a smaller percentage and numerically fewer slots at its home hub than any other major international airline. In percentage terms the nearest challenger to this situation is UA at ORD which "only" has just under 50 per cent of movements. However this is not so much because UA is restricted in its operation as BA is at LHR but due to the large presence of another major airline - AA - at the same hub.

So the net result of these restrictions limiting BA's operation out of LHR is that, only 40 miles away by road, it has another major hub, LGW. So what other major international airline has been forced to operate two major hubs so close together?

Of course if BA did not "have a slot problem at Heathrow" it would not be in the market for every slot it can get. If it did not have a slot problem at LHR it would not, over the years, closed down many of its domestic flights from smaller British cities into LHR even though these flights fed their international routes. Nor would successive BA CEOs been the leading advocates for a third LHR runway.

Having said all of this BA has managed to pick up additional slots at LHR through, for example, the purchase of BMED by bmi. This yielded over 50 slots for BA. I believe these slots conveniently become theirs on the day that the EU/US Open Skies deal becomes effective. Can someone confirm this.

One thing is true. With over 40 per cent of LHR slots, when BA is able to pick up an unlikely looking slot pair with apparently difficult to use arrival and departure times it is able to shuffle its pack and turn those slots into something very much more usable.

Finally it is worth noting that BA paid BD £30 million for the former BMED slots. Although this is far from the top price BA has paid for LHR slots I would be interested to learn of the other major international airlines other than BD and VS that have paid this sort of money to buy slots at their home hubs. If there are such airlines I am willing to bet they are few and far between.
 
User avatar
Qatara340
Posts: 1686
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RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:55 pm



Quoting BAOPS777 (Thread starter):
LHR to AUH/BAH/DOH/MCT Direct instead of the current AUH/MCT and BAH/DOH double drop flights

WOW, thats a dream come true... Does anyone know the passenger base from DOH-LHR... It seems very high.... A daily 767 is very good for this flight, or perhaps a daily 777, especially during Summer.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
theginge
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:57 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
Having said all of this BA has managed to pick up additional slots at LHR through, for example, the purchase of BMED by bmi. This yielded over 50 slots for BA. I believe these slots conveniently become theirs on the day that the EU/US Open Skies deal becomes effective. Can someone confirm this.

I think they come in stages with possibly some next year for open skies and the rest in 2009 when BA have the aircraft to use on them.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7388
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: BA Looking At 2009 Longhaul Expansion

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:19 pm

BA's "new" service to Osaka and Seoul is actually two cities they flew to until the SARS events of a few years ago, two cities flown to by partically every European airline but BA. KL is more interesting since Malaysia Airlines, the national airline, flies twice daily to LHR and fills the planes with people bound for Australia. Is operating a LHR-SIN-KL really an efficient use of an airplane, even if it sits in SIN for a hours ? BA should fly a 777 to KL and if it can't fill it then the route shouldn't be flown.

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