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hawaiian717
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:01 am



Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 49):
Ok what is with all the pro Mesa folks here?

Two types: People who only look at things from a business perspective (while Go is a financial bloodbath, Mesa as a whole looked good on paper -- low costs, agreements with multiple major airlines, profitable) and people who only look at what's good for them in the short term (Go brings lower fares).

They ignore the reality of the situation: That Go exists because they have inside information about their competitors, and that the fares being charged are inadequate to the costs of providing the service.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:17 am



Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 49):
Ok what is with all the pro Mesa folks here?

Same can be said for all the pro-HA and AQ people. Then there are those of us who are sick of shit from everybody, especially the hard-core kool-aid drinkers.

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 48):
Personally, I'd rather have the airline that isn't in the market based on illegally using their competitors' proprietary information

What if they do this: Leave for a month, come back, and start selling tickets again. I don't know how much information they need to start running an airline. There are airports, you have airplanes, you fly them between the airports, you charge people to sit on those planes. Wow, real proprietary! It's not a secret. How much they charge and what their yield is private, but deciding to start a low-cost airline doesn't take much.
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:33 am



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 51):
deciding to start a low-cost airline doesn't take much.

Except go! is NOT a low-cost airline. They have the HIGHEST costs of the three.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
T prop
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:43 am



Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
There is also nothing wrong with Go! having sale fares. Its always about survival of the fittest. You just have to re-adjust your business plan to survive.


How effectively can you adjust your business plan when the competition knows what your business plan is? Mesa cheated, got caught, and now they'll pay for it.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
because of excellent management at MESA

Your mean the excellent management who lost $80 million in a lawsuit due to erasing of porn?  razz 

Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
The reason airlines enter BK is because of sub standard management

Nothing to do with 9/11?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
What Go! is doing is just pure businesses, hell even other business try and force others out,


Ok, so what HA and AQ are doing, trying to get Mesa out, is just business. I'll buy that.  checkmark 

Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
Had Go! been successful, then another airline would have moved up a few steps, most likly a regional Hawaiian Airline, like Pacific Wings or Island air

Really? How would these airlines move up when go express is there to?

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 45):
Quoting HALFA (Reply 44):
Had Go! been successful, fares would have sky rocketed here.

How do you know this? You say all this about being proper, but you have no idea what YV would do in HNL.

This is a fact, during the trial it came out that one part of Mesa's business plan was to raise fares HIGHER than they were before they came once they eliminated AQ. This was not denied by YV. http://starbulletin.com/2007/10/03/news/story01.html

Quoting C172pic (Reply 17):

If the beautiful people of Hawaii are getting lower fares, then oh well, that's a crying shame... shame on Go!

Ah, sarcasm coming from a CRJ right seater. So what airline does that CRJ fly for?

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 8):
I am thinking that Laxintl sounds suspiciously like Jonathan Ornstein. blockhead

Maybe not JO, but a least a Mesa shareholder?
 
kosmonaute
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:47 am



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 35):
But the people of Hawaii do not.

This person, his fiancé, and his family want it gone.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 38):
HA and AQ can't handle compitition besides does anyone really care about HA or AQ?

Yes. People really do care about HA or AQ.

I sincerely wish people that people with only a cursory knowledge of Hawai'i would stop pretending that they were, indeed, experts in that body of knowledge.
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777ER
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:48 am



Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 48):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
In June (I think it was) a new Inter Island fast ferry service started with a massive boat which takes vehicles and even offers a Y+ style cabin

Superferry has spent the last several weeks docked in Honolulu Harbor. A judge just cleared them to start sailing again, but it will be a couple weeks before they do so as they have to ramp their operation back up.

What happened to the supperferry for i to be tied up?

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 48):
Mesa's native fleet is rather more typical of a CRJ.

I flew on a MESA CRJ200 from IAD-DTW in May, and I really enjoyed the experience. the inside of the aircraft was nice and clean.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 52):

In all honesty, having the highest costs has nothing to do with it.
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hawaiian717
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:14 am



Quoting 777ER (Reply 55):
What happened to the supperferry for i to be tied up?

Trouble from environmentalists. http://starbulletin.com/2007/11/15/news/story01.html
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:22 am



Quoting 777ER (Reply 55):
In all honesty, having the highest costs has nothing to do with it.

I think it does, especially because many of the go! supporters are claiming that go! is a "low cost carrier" and should eb allowed to compete because they "have lower costs," which they don't.

-Aloha!
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AirTranTUS
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:57 pm



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 52):
Except go! is NOT a low-cost airline. They have the HIGHEST costs of the three.

Fine, low fare carrier. You know what I meant.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:03 pm

I was thinking of the Indian operator GO.
Congrats to them.
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MEL
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Cubsrule
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:28 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 58):

Fine, low fare carrier. You know what I meant.

I'm SUPER confused... You are arguing the people of Hawaii benefit from YV coming in, bleeding out AQ (or HA; doesn't matter which), and then RAISING fares to levels that are higher than when YV entered... who benefits from that? Certainly not passengers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:31 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 60):
I'm SUPER confused... You are arguing the people of Hawaii benefit from YV coming in, bleeding out AQ (or HA; doesn't matter which), and then RAISING fares to levels that are higher than when YV entered... who benefits from that? Certainly not passengers.

I've never said that. And I don't know why people keep saying fares are going up and AQ and HA going under, because there is no evidence that that will happen. It seems like spin to me.
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LAXintl
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:37 pm

Funny part is that HA has also said that if go! were to drop out of the market, it would very much indeed raise fares itself.

Not very consumer friendly ha?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
SpencerII
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:39 pm

It is amazing that a miniscule operater such as GO! could cause such a buzz. If they did something illegal and are hit with the fine (which I'm sure is covered under their errors & ommsissions insurance ) then they pay the fine, or excercise their right to appeal. In the end, apparently some passengers love the idea as they have carried a million.; If everyone hated them, then they wouldn't carry anyone. Let the pieces fall where they will. HA & AQ have had enough protection for long enough, & need to grow up & diversify their route strutures so they are not wholely reliant on Hawaii traffic.

[Edited 2007-11-17 13:40:17]

[Edited 2007-11-17 13:41:57]
 
HALFA
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:11 pm



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 62):
Funny part is that HA has also said that if go! were to drop out of the market, it would very much indeed raise fares itself.

And what is wrong with that? HA is in business to make a profit while also keeping fares affordable. Fares were affordable for the vast majority of people before Go! came here. No airline will make money selling inter island tickets for $1., $9, $19, $29, $39, or even $49, as industry analysts are all in agreement that $50.00 fares are the break even mark.
That doesn't seem to matter to you though does it? It's all about you isn't it? Who cares if airlines that have operated in the islands for 78 years and employ 3 thousand people, lose money and worse, fold, as long as you have your cheap ticket? That's all that matters right?
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:17 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 61):
It seems like spin to me.

Look, we don't know exactly what Go's CASM is because YV doesn't break out CASM either by fleet type or by operation. But here's what I can tell you...

YV's RASM for Go is right around 20.5 cents (see Mesa's 10-K)

YV's systemwide CASM is about 14 cents. Now, we know that Go's CASM is significantly higher than that because of the generally higher CASM of the CRJ as compared to CR7s and CR9s and the Dash 8 as well as the fact that, ceteris paribus short hauls incur a CASM penalty, especially on the CRJ, whose economics are abysmal on routes of less than 350-400 miles. Operations in Hawaii are also generally more expensive than on the mainland for a variety of reasons which our Hawaiian friends are probably more qualified to discuss. I think it's safe to say that Go's CASM is north of 20 cents, and if that's the case, they are losing money. If you'd care to provide some data suggesting a lower CASM, I'd be VERY curious to see it.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:32 pm



Quoting HALFA (Reply 64):
as long as you have your cheap ticket? That's all that matters right?

That's right, along with the billions of other global consumers out there.

As you know and airlines are no different, Price is the single most important sales decision point. Its not the color or type of aircraft, potential onboard service, nice terminal facilities that primarily sell a seat, its the price ultimately.

Presume using your theory we should all be paying more to support little local business or inefficient producers of merchandise. For example something I ran across just last week at the local store, why pay $6 for a single 24 pack of a diet soda when a large chain store was doing 3 casses for $10?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:36 pm



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 66):
Presume using your theory we should all be paying more to support little local business or inefficient producers of merchandise.

Selling at a loss=efficiency?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
HALFA
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:42 pm



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 66):
That's right, along with the billions of other global consumers out there.

As you know and airlines are no different, Price is the single most important sales decision point. Its not the color or type of aircraft, potential onboard service, nice terminal facilities that primarily sell a seat, its the price ultimately.

Presume using your theory we should all be paying more to support little local business or inefficient producers of merchandise. For example something I ran across just last week at the local store, why pay $6 for a single 24 pack of a diet soda when a large chain store was doing 3 casses for $10?

You still haven't answered the question. Which airline do you work for? Your profile states "Airline Management". If we knew what airline you manage, perhaps your odd responses here might make more sense.
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:21 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 67):
Selling at a loss=efficiency?

Sure. There is no rule that says products must be sold at cost or better.

If that is the case be better run out and close the major US auto makers as they all sell vehicles with an average of >$2,000 loss excluding the billions in one time charges they keep writing off.

How is it possibly go!'s fault HA or AQ do not have enough of a diverse revenue base outside of being dependent on the Hawaii market? Would you feel the same of Southwest, Jetblue, Skywest or anyone else arrived on Hawaii shores and was able to cross subsidize an Island operation with their other earnings? This is done daily in the corporate world, whether via amazing loss leader sales or entire product lines or divisions being run at a loss.

I suppose you must have been one of the people that also protest the arrival of likes such as Home Depot and Walmart on the Islands as well.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 68):
If we knew what airline

One of the industries largest (and profitable) airlines.

Previous experience has included dealings with Hawaiin airline scene including having plenty of AQ/HA employee friends including executives whom have relayed many of the battles against competion such as MidPacific, Discovery and Mahalo.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:24 pm



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 69):
How is it possibly go!'s fault HA or AQ do not have enough of a diverse revenue base outside of being dependent on the Hawaii market?

It's not Go's fault at all. I'm not saying they don't have a RIGHT to sell at a loss. I'm arguing that them selling at a loss is not, in the long run, beneficial for consumers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:30 pm



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 69):
Sure. There is no rule that says products must be sold at cost or better

You might want check with the IRS on that, purposeful losses are not looked upon kindly with subsidiary situations such as this.
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LAXintl
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:47 pm

The IRS rules has more to do with establishing something to simply run a loss to cover earnings in other areas and create the net effect of reducing taxable income.

Having routes, markets or product lines that continually trade at a loss is quite normal part of doing business. I know of plenty of non aviation companies that for instance have entire country markets produce losses however are kept on in the interest of things such as building market share, having a presence, long term goals, corporate ego etc..
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
777ER
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:35 am



Quoting T prop (Reply 53):
How effectively can you adjust your business plan when the competition knows what your business plan is?

Very easy especially since the business plan that was used by SA)">AQ and SA)">HA is several years old as was when they were in BK etc. All they need to do is change the ways they do things and bingo a new plan

Quoting T prop (Reply 53):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
The reason airlines enter BK is because of sub standard management

Nothing to do with 9/11?

9/11 was a testing time, and the airlines used BK protection as their excuse to stay in business cause their management couldn't handle the situations at the time, and didn't now a real way to stay in business, and SA)">HA come into that are, while MESA maintained a profit and avoided BK protection

Quoting T prop (Reply 53):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
What Go! is doing is just pure businesses, hell even other business try and force others out,


Ok, so what SA)">HA and SA)">AQ are doing, trying to get Mesa out, is just business. I'll buy that

If it means Go! go, then yes its business, but if SA)">AQ and SA)">HA bite the dust then tough luck.

Quoting T prop (Reply 53):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
Had Go! been successful, then another airline would have moved up a few steps, most likly a regional Hawaiian Airline, like Pacific Wings or Island air

Really? How would these airlines move up when go express is there to?

Yes really, its awesome huh! Hawaii is served by many different airlines both inter-island and from the main land, and if fares go up then one of the airlines will see a chance and jump at it. Its just like any business

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 56):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 55):
What happened to the supperferry for i to be tied up?

Trouble from environmentalists

That figures. In New Zealand there was a fast ferry that operated between Wellington and Picton, and environmentalists cryed like babys to the courts and Picton dictrict council who then introduced by-laws which required the ferrys to slow down while in the Queen Charlote Sounds (that runs between Cook Strait and Picton, and has been voted the most beautiful scenic trip in the world many times). The protesters felt that they didn't do enough so cryed like babys again at the slower ferrys (that take over 3 hours to complete the trip) and in-turn those ferrys were forced to slow down.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 62):
Funny part is that SA)">HA has also said that if go! were to drop out of the market, it would very much indeed raise fares itself.

Exactly, so I don't know what the pro SA)">AQ and SA)">HA fans are crying about if one of those two airlines was forced out!
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:52 am



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 72):
Having routes, markets or product lines that continually trade at a loss is quite normal part of doing business

as a loss leader, not as an entire product offering, especially for a publicly traded company. Usually in a start up there is a period of losses that are expected, but when a subsidiary causes a passive loss the IRS will not allow those losses to offset income within other consolidated passive operations.


The shareholders seem to be quite nervous with YV in general right now since their stock is off 75% since Go! started

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=MESA&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=ha&c=%5EIXIC

while Hawaiian Air and the Nasdaq are slightly up during that same time.
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AlexPorter
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:00 am

Someone lock this thread up! Nothing but mudslinging!!
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kstatepilot
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:11 am



Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 75):

Why? because the pro YV people are making good points and all the AQ/HA people are compaining?

Just because your airline is loosing money you have to us my airline as an excuse?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:11 am



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 74):
as a loss leader, not as an entire product offering, especially for a publicly traded company. Usually in a start up there is a period of losses that are expected, but when a subsidiary causes a passive loss the IRS will not allow those losses to offset income within other consolidated passive operations.

You might want to tell that to all the majors. With the exception of a few, their entire Express operations are loss leaders. For instance in 2006, was the first time UAX ever posted a profit after 20 years, while other respected airlines such as Continental continue to run Express operations at a loss.

Regionally this is the same. UA has barely had a single profitable quarter in its Latin America division since the 90s, while AA continues to mostly post losses to Asia. Neither are being haunted by the IRS.

What may or may not happen to Mesa is unknown, however again there is nothing unlawful with its desire to offer $1, $9, $19 etc fares at go!
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:23 am



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 76):
Why? because the pro YV people are making good points and all the AQ/HA people are compaining?

I don't think anyone is complaining. We have our opinion, you all have yours. I feel like I've made my points and don't feel like beating a dead dog to death. We've had this discussion atleast 10 times already with the same 5 people on each side going back and forth.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
kstatepilot
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:31 am



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 78):
-Aloha!

Funny story, a few weeks ago my parents visited LIH. When they were trying to get home all the flights to the mainland were full except for one out of KOA. It was to late to get them a standby pass, so I had to buy them a ticket. The cheapest was on AQ.
 
T prop
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:44 am



Quoting 777ER (Reply 73):
Quoting T prop (Reply 53):
How effectively can you adjust your business plan when the competition knows what your business plan is?

Very easy especially since the business plan that was used by SA)">AQ and SA)">HA is several years old as was when they were in BK etc. All they need to do is change the ways they do things and bingo a new plan

Some of that years old business plan is still effective today. Eg. Mesa knows who HA has contracts with, how much they are worth, when they expire, future projections, routes etc. Hard to go changing those kinds of things. Mesa said what you did in court and it didn't help them.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 73):
9/11 was a testing time, and the airlines used BK protection as their excuse to stay in business cause their management couldn't handle the situations at the time, and didn't now a real way to stay in business, and SA)">HA come into that are, while MESA maintained a profit and avoided BK protection

So all the airlines who went bankrupt post 9/11 should have seen it coming and planned accordingly to avoid it? As far as Mesa being so great, what's happening to them today? Their pilots are leaving in droves, their stock is tanking and they just got an $80 million judgment against them. What will the excuse be when they go bankrupt?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 73):
Quoting T prop (Reply 53):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
Had Go! been successful, then another airline would have moved up a few steps, most likly a regional Hawaiian Airline, like Pacific Wings or Island air

Really? How would these airlines move up when go express is there to?

Yes really, its awesome huh! Hawaii is served by many different airlines both inter-island and from the main land, and if fares go up then one of the airlines will see a chance and jump at it. Its just like any business

Um... you specifically mention LW and WP, if go is around these two won't be doing much expanding.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 72):
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 62):
Funny part is that SA)">HA has also said that if go! were to drop out of the market, it would very much indeed raise fares itself.

Exactly, so I don't know what the pro SA)">AQ and SA)">HA fans are crying about if one of those two airlines was forced out!

The local airlines employ thousands of people, if one of them shuts down you think they can make a living at Mesa? Why do you think they're crying?

BTW, on Monday we find out how money Mesa has to tie up in a bond for years if they want to appeal. HA wants them to put up $98 million and the judge has already indicated that's about how much it's going to be. This is half of Mesa's available cash & securities. http://starbulletin.com/2007/11/14/business/story02.html
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:55 am



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 79):
Funny story, a few weeks ago my parents visited LIH. When they were trying to get home all the flights to the mainland were full except for one out of KOA. It was to late to get them a standby pass, so I had to buy them a ticket. The cheapest was on AQ.

Thats the story of non-revving to Hawai'i. Easy to get here, nearly impossible to leave.

Not sure why its funny. Aloha (and Hawaiian) have never really been into charging alot for last minute tickets. I'm glad your parent's got to experience Aloha and their wonderful employees.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
HALFA
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:56 am



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 76):
Why? because the pro YV people are making good points and all the AQ/HA people are compaining?

The pro Mesa people have not made ONE valid point in this entire thread. The pro Mesa people continue to support a company that uses illegal practices, lies to the people in Hawaii about their intentions, gets caught cheating, and are all crying now because they will be forced to pay for their crimes. Go! will soon be Gone! and the people of Hawaii will be much better off. As I said in reply #1..........GOOD RIDDANCE...........!!
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:00 am

You are very naive if you think Mesa is going to tie its cash up for this.

The money is being covered by someone else. According to this story they have lined up Federal Insurance Co. with $85mil.
http://starbulletin.com/2007/11/13/business/story02.html

And even after years of appeals if any pay out is due and cant be covered by insurance, Mesa simply would finance the amount as long term debt very much like financing planes. No need to give up cash, simply add it in as pimple to the debt load.

Now what could get interesting is that if Mesa is acquitted on appeals it could itself go after HA seeking damages and repayment of cost incurred.
Will be interesting to watch the years of appeals this could take particularly if the venue is moved to a mainland court and away from the BK court which by its nature has an interest in one of the parties.

Get the popcorn ready, I'm very much looking forward to this entertainment.  box 

[Edited 2007-11-17 18:08:29]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 73):
Very easy especially since the business plan that was used by SA)">AQ and SA)">HA is several years old as was when they were in BK etc. All they need to do is change the ways they do things and bingo a new plan

Remember...what Mesa was convicted of was agreeing to not the use the info, and then using it. You are forgetting that they signed a confidentiality/non-compete agreement. It isn't so much about what the info was, but that they agreed not to use and then did.

-Aloha!

[Edited 2007-11-17 18:58:56]
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
T prop
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:15 am



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 83):
You are very naive if you think Mesa is going to tie its cash up for this

Yeah, I've seen that article, I know it's not coming out of Mesa's pocket, but in the end it will go into HA's. As far as Mesa paying any amount not covered, why? They know what HA wants, make a deal, pull the plug on go ASAP, it may be cheaper for them in the end.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 83):
Now what could get interesting is that if Mesa is acquitted on appeals it could itself go after HA seeking damages and repayment of cost incurred.
Will be interesting to watch the years of appeals this could take particularly if the venue is moved to a mainland court and away from the BK court which by its nature has an interest in one of the parties.

An acquittal? More likely the judgment stands on appeal, if they get one, and then the shareholders really will be pissed.

Pass the popcorn...
 
777ER
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:15 am



Quoting T prop (Reply 80):
Um... you specifically mention SA)">LW and SA)">WP, if go is around these two won't be doing much expanding.

Those were the only Hawaiian based airlines I could think off. Airtran could very well be a future airline in Hawaii if one of the current airlines go, especially with some of their B717s. SW could also be another one, and would give SA)">HA and SA)">AQ a good run for their money. SW and SA)">FL have an excellent route network in the Mainland to get excellent numbers for an Hawiian operation

Quoting T prop (Reply 80):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 73):
9/11 was a testing time, and the airlines used BK protection as their excuse to stay in business cause their management couldn't handle the situations at the time, and didn't now a real way to stay in business, and SA)">SA)">HA come into that are, while MESA maintained a profit and avoided BK protection

So all the airlines who went bankrupt post 9/11 should have seen it coming and planned accordingly to avoid it?

I think the first few weeks/months after 9/11 would have set off alarm bells for the industry, especially with falling pax numbers and rising costs.

Quoting T prop (Reply 80):
BTW, on Monday we find out how money Mesa has to tie up in a bond for years if they want to appeal. SA)">HA wants them to put up $98 million and the judge has already indicated that's about how much it's going to be. This is half of Mesa's available cash & securities.

Can someone explain this to me. What is the bond for and how is it used for these things? If SA)">HA win again with Mesa's appeal then does the full $98million go to SA)">HA?

Quoting HALFA (Reply 82):
Go! will soon be Gone! and the people of Hawaii will be much better off. As I said in reply #1..........GOOD RIDDANCE...........!!

Then the people of Hawaii get to enjoy higher fares....yea much better off!
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SkyexRamper
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:51 am

Congrats to Mesa for stealing $45,000,000+ from the island economies and bring it back the mainland to help your poorly run, oversized operations.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
kstatepilot
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:01 am



Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 87):
Congrats to Mesa for stealing $45,000,000+ from the island economies and bring it back the mainland to help your poorly run, oversized operations.

umm isn't it the other way around? We are LOOSING money in HI. We are taking our US/UA/DL money and giving it to Hawaiians so they can have cheap airfare... Think about it, your post makes no sense at all.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:09 am



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 88):
Think about it, your post makes no sense at all.

What that they are taking a lot of money a way from the island economies. Makes perfect sense. They are taking money a way from the true island companies and airlines that have served the economies for a long time. Mesa just likes to get in everyone's business and make a mess. If GO! is really losing money after 15 months, they would not be there or at least not under anyone with any sense of common sense.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
kstatepilot
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:15 am



Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 89):
If GO! is really losing money after 15 months, they would not be there or at least not under anyone with any sense of common sense.

I remember a while back someone on here said that AQ was loosing money on inter-island flights also.. should they be kicked out? you say no because they are "hometown". Free Economy?? I think not.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:25 am



Quoting 777ER (Reply 86):
Then the people of Hawaii get to enjoy higher fares....yea much better off!

Again, the traffic created by the rock-bottom go! fares is minimal! The market has hardly grown (3-8%) with the HUGE decrease in fares (remember, go!'s loadfactor hovers in the 60s).

What does this mean?

It tells me that almost everyone (about 95%) who wanted to fly interisland was flying at the pre-go! fare. Is it worth the time, effort or more importantly money to serve the extra 5% who won't pay but half of what it costs to fly them?

OR, is it better for everyone to focus on the 95% who obviously are ready, willing and able to pay an economically rational and fair price?

What HA and AQ executives said before go! started up is true....
1. The market has changed fundamentally....increased options in shopping and healthcare on the neighbor islands have decreased the need to travel to Honolulu.
2. Increased direct flights from the mainland to OGG, KOA, LIH and now ITO have decreased the need for interisland flights.
3. There would probably be a short term increase in people flyign "just because" but it wouldn't last in the medium to long term.

All three of these assertions are true, and have panned out, explaining go!'s low loads, and the overall decline in interisland traffic since the peak in the late 1990s. Aloha was running 30 daily Round Trips between HNL and OGG then....Now they do between 16 and 17 daily roundtrips.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:29 am



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 90):
I remember a while back someone on here said that AQ was loosing money on inter-island flights also.. should they be kicked out? you say no because they are "hometown". Free Economy?? I think not.

From 9/11 thru the end of their respective Bankruptcies, both carriers were losing money interisland. The lower costs both achieved, coupled with fare rationalization (elimination of coupons) resulted in both making a slight profit on interisland.....evidenced by the fact that both AQ and HA posted operating profits during their bankruptcies.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:23 am



Quoting HALFA (Reply 82):
The pro Mesa people have not made ONE valid point in this entire thread.

And the pro-HA, AQ people keep think their average carriers are the greatest thing ever. How about all of you just shut up!!
I love ASO!
 
777ER
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:25 am



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 91):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 86):
Then the people of Hawaii get to enjoy higher fares....yea much better off!

Again, the traffic created by the rock-bottom go! fares is minimal! The market has hardly grown (3-8%) with the HUGE decrease in fares (remember, go!'s loadfactor hovers in the 60s).

The point about the market means nothing, the fact is, if one of the airlines go, weither its HA, AQ or Go! then the fares go up. Sure its a win for the airlines and their profits which helps their CEOs, other top managements pay and shareholders etc, but its not a win for the customers as they will end up paying more to travel.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:34 am



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 77):
Regionally this is the same. UA has barely had a single profitable quarter in its Latin America division since the 90s, while AA continues to mostly post losses to Asia. Neither are being haunted by the IRS.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 77):
however again there is nothing unlawful with its desire to offer $1, $9, $19 etc fares at go!

If you bothered to read my post, I was saying you can't write off passive losses against the parent income. That is all I said, not that you can't run your company at a loss (which is a great way to go Chapter 11 or 7).


Go! is quite blantant
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zTagged
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:20 am

There are too many AQ/HA and YV fanboys and girls in this thread moaning and bickering. Knock it off.
Go, although putting themselves in an early grave with ultra low fares, is giving Hawaii a choice. The entire world of business is cut-throat, get over it.
I recall the ideas being said here about "ZOMG GO! IS GONNA RUN AQ/HA OUT OF BUSINESS :BBBB" said 30-some years ago in Dallas..  Wink Continental and American are still doing just fine, if you ask me.
Something awful.
 
T prop
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:39 pm



Quoting ZTagged (Reply 96):
There are too many AQ/HA and YV fanboys and girls in this thread moaning and bickering. Knock it off.

Yes Mom.  Silly
 
RJwrench85
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:15 pm



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 84):
Remember...what Mesa was convicted of was agreeing to not the use the info, and then using it. You are forgetting that they signed a confidentiality/non-compete agreement. It isn't so much about what the info was, but that they agreed not to use and then did.

-Aloha!

If I remember correctly there was no "non-compete agreement" but a 2 year confidentiality agreement. Now once again if memory serves me correctly go! started operations a few months short of the 2 year mark. Had go! waited none of the above arguements from the HA, AQ side would matter. What would we all be saying then? Just for conversation sake?

BTW I love the Islands but hate the 20% of the lovely locals who are better than us "haole's" !!! oh yeah and watch out for the maho (forgot the spelling) from oahu
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aloha73g
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RE: Go! Celebrates Its 1,000,000th Passenger

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:40 pm



Quoting RJwrench85 (Reply 98):
If I remember correctly there was no "non-compete agreement" but a 2 year confidentiality agreement.

The agreement prevents Mesa from "using or disclosing the information" obtained from Hawaiian (and Aloha) for a period of 2 years. Aloha's 2 year period just ended in Sept. 2007 since Mesa wasn't eliminated as a bidder until Sept. 2005. I do not think it is possible to look at your competitors confidential information and then enter into competition with them without "using" the information.

Quoting RJwrench85 (Reply 98):
Had go! waited none of the above arguements from the HA, AQ side would matter. What would we all be saying then? Just for conversation sake?

I would be saying what I've been saying the entire time. That Mesa's business plan helps no one in the long run, that the low fares are unsustainable, and that the prices AQ and HA charge pre-go! were reasonable, fair, and served the market well. No need for a "3rd airline".....we already had a growing WP, Pacific Wings and Fly Hawai'i was going to start up. Especially no need for a 3rd airline which has substantially higher costs than all of the established carriers and doesn't pay their employees as well.

Quoting RJwrench85 (Reply 98):
BTW I love the Islands but hate the 20% of the lovely locals who are better than us "haole's" !!! oh yeah and watch out for the maho (forgot the spelling) from oahu

What???

No, Seriously, what?!?

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!

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