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OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:39 am

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Airstud
Posts: 4883
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:41 am

This is unsettling.

Better make sure we keep following this story.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
AAgent
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:41 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:24 am

That is disturbing beyond belief. To risk the lives of passengers and crew, not to mention the possibility of injury and/or death to persons on the ground. Simply unbelievable and completely disgusting. I think a complete house cleaning is in order as the management of Servisair had to know about this. Perhaps the company should be renamed DIServisair.

Memo to self...only fly into/out of DEN in warm weather.

Feeling ill,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
zTagged
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:59 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:12 am

Caught this on CBS last night, pretty messed up. It's a shame to see them do this after icing incidents.. crazy 
Something awful.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:38 am

I wouldn't be so concerned about just Denver. My guess is that this type of practice is the norm across the country.
 
dispatchguy
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Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:56 am

Thanks OPNL.....

Good thing I dont have to go to DEN this winter....
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
airtran737
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:50 pm

It doesn't take a lot of skill to de-ice a plane (certified de-icer for 8 years running here) and if they're feeding answers to the applicants then they must be getting some real dumb asses. It's not that hard people, don't spray directly on doors, windows, into any holes, beware of exhaust, know which planes need a tacticle check, beware of your hold over times, don't hit anything, and finally, if in doubt spray it again. Also make sure you are upwind as much a possible, a day of being soaked in Type I glycol sucks.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:56 pm

Yet another case of you get what you pay for. When you pay crap wages, you are going to get crap people who need to be spoon fed everything. It's also a very good example of why this current trend of outsourcing everything may not be such a great idea. When airlines outsource areas of their operation, they lose direct control over training, performance, etc. But hey, as long as the public gets their $99 coast to coast fare it's all good.

[Edited 2007-11-21 07:02:42]
 
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ramprat74
Posts: 1361
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:01 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:31 pm

United and its employees are top-notch in DEN when it comes to de-icing. My brother is one of them.
 
tripleboom
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:57 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:33 pm

It should be noted that Servisair has since retrained all of its employees here in Denver and that the offender in the video got suspended and then canned. Don't be afraid to fly through Denver because the news crew will only show you and tell you what they want you to see and hear. Unsettling, yes. Heads rolling, check. Problem fixed, roger.
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:55 pm



Quoting UAL Bagsmasher (Reply 7):
Yet another case of you get what you pay for. When you pay crap wages, you are going to get crap people who need to be spoon fed everything.

While i agree somewhat, i highly doubt these people would all of a sudden become brilliant if they were paid 5 dollars more an hour. I've worked with enough high paid union factory employees to see that a high wage doesnt necessarily equal highly skilled and valuable worker. The applicants may change, but you're still not going to get degreed individuals(generally) to apply to be an airplane de-icer.

This came up at a factory i used to work at. We had some quality issues and the end of our process(generally the lowest wages in the place but still a very good wage(about 16 bucks an hour)). Someone said, well since these are the people on the lowest end of the totem pole, maybe we should pay them more, and they will work harder. It may somewhat make sense, but these people might also think, 'hey, we must have been doing something right to get a few bucks more an hour!'. I'm not convinced paying people more makes them all of a sudden become better workers if they have been paid less in the past.

This is truly unsettling, these guys are essential to safety in the air. They work harder than most, they are the last line before the plane takes off. The pilots and passengers trust these guys to be able to a good job.
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:20 pm



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
It's not that hard people, don't spray directly on doors, windows, into any holes, beware of exhaust, know which planes need a tacticle check, beware of your hold over times, don't hit anything, and finally, if in doubt spray it again. Also make sure you are upwind as much a possible, a day of being soaked in Type I glycol sucks.

Actually, that is a reasonable list of things to remember, particularly for some less responsible or willing to think. I'm sure you are on top of your work, but are the rest of your colleagues? Leave out one of those things, by forgetfulness, fatigue, or just neglect, and there is a problem.

I AM flying into Denver for the holidays. I'm going to hope that, because of this expose, de-icing will receive EXTRA attention rather than less. I'm not going to mention the story to my family, though. "Unsettling" is right!

-Rampart
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4397
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:14 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
I wouldn't be so concerned about just Denver. My guess is that this type of practice is the norm across the country.

This is of big concern. Yet another contracted company cutting corners, and risking lives. The trainers should be fired, and there must be some higher ups that allowed this behavior to continue. These contract companies have a hard enough time finding people that will work for the poor wages, so they will pass everyone that gets hired? Makes you wonder if they actually do background checks properly?

When it comes to safety and aircraft, there is no cutting corners. Hopefully they get their contract yanked. Sorry all, but this is just sickening.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
wingnutmn
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:27 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:26 pm

Here at XJ in MSP, we have a new company this year doing our deicing, and when we were getting a tactile inspection to determine if we needed to be deiced a couple weeks ago, the guy driving the truck was reading his deicing manual while the guy in the bucket was looking. Doesn't build confidence in the deice crew when you see stuff like that!

WingnutMN
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
airtran737
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:46 pm



Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 13):
Here at XJ in MSP, we have a new company this year doing our deicing, and when we were getting a tactile inspection to determine if we needed to be deiced a couple weeks ago, the guy driving the truck was reading his deicing manual while the guy in the bucket was looking. Doesn't build confidence in the deice crew when you see stuff like that!

They could also be referencing your individual airlines policy. I deiced YX, FL, NW, AL, ZW, XJ, HP, US, Ryan Int'l, USA 3000, Polar, Atlas, DL, UA and a few others. They all have different rules. The basic process is the same, but each has its own oddities and if I wasn't sure you could be guaranteed that I'd look it up or call it in.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Starglider
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:19 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:56 pm



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
It's not that hard people, don't spray directly on doors, windows, into any holes, beware of exhaust, know which planes need a tacticle check, beware of your hold over times, don't hit anything, and finally, if in doubt spray it again. Also make sure you are upwind as much a possible, a day of being soaked in Type I glycol sucks.

There is a bit more to it than that. What about criteria to decide using the one- or two-step treatment, if one-step, the calculation of water/fluid mix depending on actual temperature and/or type/amount of precipitation? This is crucial information i miss here to properly deice/antiice an aircraft.

Not to mention if deicing activities take place on a remote spot with running engines and multiple trucks take part in this activity on a single aircraft. Clear communication is crucial in order to perform the treatment correctly. Make plans in case equipment fails and how to solve that problem in advance to remain within the holdover time. It takes team work and coordination between deicers, truck driver(s), deicing supervisor and cockpit crew.

Starglider
 
airtran737
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:16 pm



Quoting Starglider (Reply 15):
What about criteria to decide using the one- or two-step treatment, if one-step, the calculation of water/fluid mix depending on actual temperature and/or type/amount of precipitation? This is crucial information i miss here to properly deice/antiice an aircraft.

Thus the part where I said know your hold over time.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:38 am

Why get so freaked out about deicers? Your regional airline FO took his/her end-of-training written exams the exact same way! Welcome to the industry.
 
NwAflyer07
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:00 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:39 am

That junk is what you get when you use vendors with no airline loyalty or affiliation. Maybe now airlines will start using their own employees to get jobs done... To go as far as purposefully decieving airlines such as Continental... that's disgraceful. Servisair seems like a reputable company, but this is downright awful. $13 an hour is pretty nice for a de-icer btw. More than what most of us part timers on the ramp make.

[Edited 2007-11-21 16:45:29]
 
GECMD11
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:43 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:39 am

wow....but not surprising with out sourcing these days.........there are two other parts to the story about DIA driver training,also very scary what's going on out there.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12):
Makes you wonder if they actually do background checks properly?

 checkmark 
 
platinumfoota
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:39 am

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:42 am

So who does the deicing for UA? Which department?
I got to help in DIA during last winter, in that terrible blizzard. Great airport with great employees.
Never forget United 93
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:16 pm

One of the issues with out-sourcing is lack of proper oversight. How many Servisair classes did someone from the FAA or an airline observe?

If you pay a livable wage you will get better people. If the training is made too easy so anyone who shows up can pass you will get some bad apples.

Now outsourcing at a station where an airline has only 2-3 flights a day probably makes sense. Less equipment to buy etc. But outsourcing at a major station/hub (i.e. AS/SEA) is just eroding the middle class, taking away some quality and operational control. Lowering the middle class with lower wages, less benefits, not as good of health insurance (if any) etc.

Now if the contractors paid livable wages, better benefits, quality affordable health insurance they would not be cheaper then keeping the service "in house".

If we're not careful here in america we will have an even larger poor communities and less and less middle class. It will be the haves and the have nots.
 
NwAflyer07
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:00 pm

RE: DEN De-icing Training Story...

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:42 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 21):
Now outsourcing at a station where an airline has only 2-3 flights a day probably makes sense. Less equipment to buy etc. But outsourcing at a major station/hub (i.e. AS/SEA) is just eroding the middle class, taking away some quality and operational control. Lowering the middle class with lower wages, less benefits, not as good of health insurance (if any) etc.

Very well put. This country may not be facing an unemployment crisis, but people like me in the upcoming middle class are going to find themselves struggling to get by if patterns like this continue. At least the wages for de-icers at servisair are pretty decent.

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