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DeltaAVL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:15 pm

RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:42 pm



Quoting Atlantaflyboy (Reply 47):
Regarding the 757 F seating Discrepancies. There are (4) configuarations out there

22F (missing 6a/b), 158Y - Ex-ATA birds w/ overhead CRT's throughout
22F (missing 1c/d), 158Y - Ex-AA birds soon to get 16C, 15bY and avod throughout
24F (6 rows a/b, c/d), 159Y - Original Delta 757 Config w/ CRT's throughout
26F (missing 7c/d), 158Y - Ex-Song birds w/ AVOD throughout

Hope this helps!

Thanks, that cleared it up for me, and probably the others as well.  Smile
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:51 pm



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 48):
Question here. Could the B757-300's be used on trans-atlantic flghts? Or is the range to short for these flights out of say JFK, BOS ?

Not really.......the range is just not there, the 753 was simply not designed with transatlantic operations in mind. Even the shortest of TATL segments, say BOS-DUB or EWR-SNN would be problematic on the westbound journey due to unfavorable winds. Add in factors such as ATC issues in the Northeast US, weather, alternate airports, and flights operating at or near capacity, and the 753s would be paying many visits to Gander.

As I mentioned above, ATA does use it 753s for some rather longhaul charter and military work....on flights between the US and the Gulf and/or Eastern Europe. Generally, those flights will stop both in (a) Northern Canada and (b) Ireland for fuel, particularly on the westbound journey.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 49):
Maybe to Ireland from BOS and JFK, but not much farther.

And even those flights would be operational headaches........there is a reason that both NW and CO have outfitted their 757-300s as domestic airplanes. West Coast-Hawaii and US Transcon segments are, more or less, the limit for the 753.
 
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STT757
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:20 pm

CO's longest 757-300 flight is IAH-LIM, 3132 miles. EWR-SNN is 3082 miles. The big difference though is the winds.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AmtrakGuy
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Joined: Thu Sep 09, 1999 11:25 am

RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:43 pm



Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 46):
Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 44):
I got a question to ask about A321 -- is their CASM similiar to 757-200? and how much difference with 757-300?

On missions they can fly the A321 will usually have lower costs than a 757-200. It's a lighter, newer, and more efficient airplane.

But its performance isn't nearly as good. It has much less range than a 757 and worse field performance. Even US transcons have sometimes been a struggle for the A321, as have hot LAS and PHX ops.

Keep in mind, NWA isn't going to do any transcon flights. I think they can use A321 from DTW and/or MSP to any cities within USA -- i.e. MSP to SEA, MSP to PHX, etc which are very popular. And use their current 757 (and convert) for international routes
 
bmacleod
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:43 pm

The 757-300 market was very narrow and I don't see how it would fit into DL operations as the 767-300 would suffice where the 757-200 isn't sufficient...

Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 3):
Because they bought the 767-400 for domestic service.

The 767-400 was ordered to replace the L-1011s. The 767-300 is much closer in size to the 757-300.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:47 pm



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 62):
The 757-300 market was very narrow and I don't see how it would fit into DL operations as the 767-300 would suffice where the 757-200 isn't sufficient...

Well, Delta did operate the 767-200 until 2005. Since the 767-200 was also primarily used on domestic runs, the 757-300 would have been an ideal replacement for them. When Delta did their massive fleet replacements, the initial plan was to keep the 767-200s, but fears of bankruptcy is what led Delta to retire them. Had Delta retired the 767-200s earlier and ordered the 757-300, the 757-300 may still be operating today as it is a more efficient aircraft than the 767-200 for what Delta was using them for.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:58 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 63):
Well, Delta did operate the 767-200 until 2005. Since the 767-200 was also primarily used on domestic runs, the 757-300 would have been an ideal replacement for them.

The 767-200 is not larger than the 757-200, and thus a 757-200 is a fine replacement for the 767-200 when "widebody luxury" is not needed.

762s are being fazed out because they are very inefficient, especially when compared to the similarly sized 752. They do offer greater range, which is why some airlines with new ones are still using them, and they do offer more 'luxury' space, which is one reason AA continues using them for transcons, but other than that, forget it. 752s are better for domestic use, and 763s are better for longer range use...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:14 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 64):
The 767-200 is not larger than the 757-200, and thus a 757-200 is a fine replacement for the 767-200 when "widebody luxury" is not needed.

The 767-200 IS in fact somewhat larger than the 757-200. In Delta's configuration, the 767-200s seated 204 passengers, vs. the 184 passengers on the 757-200. The 757-300 is sized in between the 767-200 and 767-300, and has a lower CASM than the 767-200, making it worth to carry the additional passengers.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:52 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 56):
Once you start replacing that many things, I would imagine the cost goes up, up, up.

Too true. I think I have read that the 753 also has beefed-up MLG. The stretch-model I had in mind was the DC-8-62 which was a shorter and cheaper stretch than the 61 and 63 versions. (I recognize that the 60 Series DC-8's were new production and not conversions.) The 62 approach might produce a "757-250" version.

I think it's an interesting possibility; but, if the idea has any merit, it's already been considered and rejected by smarterpeople than yours truly. The economic value of the fuel saving promise of new designs probably outweighs the value of any capacity increase in the 757.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:11 am



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 61):
The 737 may save weight being closer to the ground, but it may add that weight back in the engine/nacelle/pod department due to complexity.

I'm not really following you here. The engine, nacelle, and strut are a different shape because of the low stance but they aren't really any more or less complex.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 61):
The real reason the 737 is close to the ground is so that it is serviceable at any airport where it can physically land, since it doesn't require elevated ground equipment or baggage conveyors. In this modern era for carriers buying new 737NGs, that's not really important anymore

For some operators, it's still a big deal. FR being a major example, since they fly to a ton of 2nd and 3rd tier airports.

Tom.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:30 am

I am sorry but I have to disagree with all the above posters.

The 753 is a heinous aircraft. Its inflight motions are sickening, turn times are among the longest in the industry - longer than a 767 of any size or shape. Its relatively underpowered and the wing loading is extremely high, so the hot/high performance you are used to with the 752 goes right out the window.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 64):
The 767-200 is not larger than the 757-200, and thus a 757-200 is a fine replacement for the 767-200 when "widebody luxury" is not needed.

I'm sorry dude, but it really is significantly bigger.

NS
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:25 pm



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 68):
The 753 is a heinous aircraft. Its inflight motions are sickening, turn times are among the longest in the industry - longer than a 767 of any size or shape. Its relatively underpowered and the wing loading is extremely high, so the hot/high performance you are used to with the 752 goes right out the window.

I don't think that CO or NW would agree with you that the 757-300 is heinous. Where are you getting this info from?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:38 pm



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 68):
The 753 is a heinous aircraft. Its inflight motions are sickening, turn times are among the longest in the industry - longer than a 767 of any size or shape. Its relatively underpowered and the wing loading is extremely high, so the hot/high performance you are used to with the 752 goes right out the window.

And none of that matters when what you are looking for is the cheapest way to get 224 low-paying pax from MSP to SEA and back. The 757-300 does what it does very, very well and no one has made or proposed any other aircraft remotely as well-suited to short- or medium-range, high-density missions. And the performance isn't terrible, although it won't set any records. MTOW is only 17k lbs. higher than HGW 757-200s, and the -300 has (slightly) more thrust.

757-300s, were they available, could replace 767-300s on DL domestic services and save DL a bucketload of money.
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:14 pm



Quoting Nosedive (Reply 60):
When did NW get A321s?

Special order to Santa Claus last night - they appeared this morning  Wink Look to see them on the MSP-PHX/SEA/LAX/LAS routes

Just in case no one responded to the original post: The A321 is NOT an acceptable substitution for the 757-300 (unless your 753s are going out 50-70 people light)
The GoodDoctor
 
EMB170
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:06 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):
Hindsight is 20/20.

I'm sure DL wishes they had ordered the 753 especially in today's environment. But they didn't.

Chapter closed. For now.

"For now"? Come on, Alitalia, what are you hinting at?? ;o)

EMB170, who also wonders if DL has an order for a plane that's a longer version of the one he uses as his handle up it's sleeve...
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:20 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 68):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 64):
The 767-200 is not larger than the 757-200, and thus a 757-200 is a fine replacement for the 767-200 when "widebody luxury" is not needed.

I'm sorry dude, but it really is significantly bigger.

Yes, the 762 is both longer (not much, about 4 ft.) and its wingspan is 31 ft. more than the 762. Gross takeoff weight also about 80,000 to 140,000 lbs more than the 752 depending whether it's a standard 762 or 762ER. At the same seat pitch the 762 also has about 15% more seats than the 752. CO's 752s actually have one more seat than their 762s but the 752s have a much smaller business class cabin.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26609
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:27 am



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 13):

The 753 can do shorter transatlantic.

Yes it can. There were rumors that CO was going to configure some for just such a mission, namely to LGW.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 68):
ts relatively underpowered and the wing loading is extremely high, so the hot/high performance you are used to with the 752 goes right out the window.

The 753's performance is excellent for an aircraft of its size.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 64):

The 767-200 is not larger than the 757-200, and thus a 757-200 is a fine replacement for the 767-200 when "widebody luxury" is not needed.

The 762 IS larger than the 752. It is significantly heavier, and carries more passengers in similar configurations. Further, it carries far more cargo, both by weight and volume.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 68):
Its inflight motions are sickening

No they aren't

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 68):
turn times are among the longest in the industry - longer than a 767 of any size or shape

Condor can apparently do a 45 minute turn with a fully loaded 753.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5920
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:22 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
The 762 IS larger than the 752. It is significantly heavier, and carries more passengers in similar configurations. Further, it carries far more cargo, both by weight and volume.

I was thinking that where the confusion lies is that in CO's layout, the 757-200 and 767-200ER seat about the same number of passengers. This is due to the fact that the 767-200ERs feature a larger BusinessFirst cabin in a 2-1-2 layout.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Why Didn't Delta Order The 757-300?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:45 pm



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
As discussed about a million times, Boeing cannot and will not resume production of the 757. Is it so hard to understand that the machinery needed to produce the 757 no longer exists? It gone......and while the 757 is one fantastic airplane, its based on 1980s technology.

 checkmark  Restarting a production line costs a fortune! There are efficiency studies out there on how the L1011 line couldn't re-achieve its previous production efficiency after it had slowed for a long time.

Besides, the 757 line has been retrofitted to increase 737NG production. Boeing is making enough money off that line!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
.the airlines truly thought that there was no place for a small capacity long range airplane; boy, have times changed.

 rotfl  Wow... it has changed. But so have the Bilaterals (Open skies). Without the partial deregulation of international air travel, the desire for small trans-Ocean airframes only came after more slots were allocated.

Let's put it this way, we talk about A380 demand to service the cities of the world that have extremely restrictive slots. That can be LHR and NRT (due to infrastructure), SYD (bilateral limits), and now JFK.  Wink But notice how MAN, DEN, DFW, IAD, ICN, and most other non-slot restricted airports are looking at 787's for growth?

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):
Hindsight is 20/20.

Exactly. The line is shut down. The 787 will obsolete the 757 (even if its larger). Time to move on and stop worrying about those airframes that are made out of beer can.  duck  Not to mention engine technology...

Lightsaber
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