http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=23363
http://www.nu.nl/news/1325918/32/KLM_bouwt_vloot_verder_uit.html

Coming up on Dutch news websites this morning. KLM orders the following extra aircraft:

2 x B777-300
3 x B737-700
2 x A330-200

Some notes from CEO Peter Hartman:

- KL will no longer order B772, but any 777 order will be 773.
- KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet. These aircraft will be phased out from 2014, when they are 25 years old. A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose.
- In 2014-2015 KL will start replacing the MD11 fleet
- The new 737-700 replace older 733 and 734

[edit: spelling]

[Edited 2007-11-21 23:16:02]

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): - In 2014-2015 KL will start replacing the MD11 fleet

That is great news! In 2014-2015, the A350 would be the perfect aircraft for them! It would not only be a major boost for Airbus, but will give more confidence in the A350 program. 2008 might be the A350 year.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 1): the A350 would be the perfect aircraft for them! It would not only be a major boost for Airbus, but will give more confidence in the A350 program. 2008 might be the A350 year.

Maybe not perfect, but very good.

If KLM was to replace their current fleet of MD-11's, A330's and B777 with only one aircraft program, the A350 would be the best fit unless Boeing launches the B787-1000 and 1100.
But KLM seems to have no problem with buying from both suppliers and I think they will.
The B787 would be a very good replacement for the A330-200.

I predict that in 2020 KLM will have a fleet of 15 B787's, 40 A350's, 30 A380's and 75 Y1's from Boeing.
 

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): 2 x A330-200

The A330 edged 2 closer to breaking the 200 mark for 2007.

in 2014 the 787 might also be the perfect aircraft for them,. and a boost for the 787 program.

Good to see the MD-11 phase out has been pushed back a couple of years. This could possibly give it another decade of tri-jet service until they are all gone. In a nutshell, KL has a little less than a decade before the diverse longhaul fleet that we have come to love will disappear. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the 787 and A350 when their time comes. But we will miss KL's 744's and MD-11's when 90% of the widebodies in the sky are 787's and A350's.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 2): If KLM was to replace their current fleet of MD-11's, A330's and B777 with only one aircraft program, the A350 would be the best fit unless Boeing launches the B787-1000 and 1100.

Yes, but the a332's and 777's are new, so they won't be replaced for at least 10-15 years. By then there may be new airplanes on the market (Y# for example) The most pressing need for replacement is being addressed right now... the 737 classics and 747's and the MD11's.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4): Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the 787 and A350 when their time comes. But we will miss KL's 744's and MD-11's when 90% of the widebodies in the sky are 787's and A350's.

The nostalgia of seeing them is certainly appealing. But repeat your statement if you compared two flights: one in a totally old KL 744 or MD-11 with bad seats, no PTV and dirty, noisy interior, the other in a brand new A350 with new comfy seats, mood lighting, in a quiet cabin with a wide screen AVOD system.

Sounds like there's going to be a massive twin widebody RFQ from AFKL in the not too distant future.

I can see them making a joint order for anything B787/A350/(A380), maybe not KL for the A380.

And then some time down the road they will do the same all over again for narrowbody, what's going to replace all B737s and A320s at both carriers.

Given the fleet size of AFKL, I could see them split the order between B787s and A350s as this would make a lot of sense since they would still have a sizeable fleet of each and benefit from their specificities e.g. from the smaller B787-8 to the larger A350-1000 in terms of range and capacity, etc. My guess is that the A330-200s and B-777-300ERs will last the longest, while A340s, B747s B767s (any left) and MD-11s will be extinct from passenger service by the end of the next decade.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 2): I predict that in 2020 KLM will have a fleet of 15 B787's, 40 A350's, 30 A380's and 75 Y1's from Boeing.

I think you can skip the A380's in there... KLM can use this plane for maybe two or three routes, but the A380 fleet would be to small to be effective in the fleet. I don't even see 30 A380's with Air France, but I could be wrong, so don't hold me on that!  

Cheers!   

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): - KL will no longer order B772, but any 777 order will be 773

As said over at the other thread, current plans call for the KLM B777 fleet to grow to 22 units. 15 B772ERs are already in operation, 2 B77Ws will joing the fleet in February and March and another 2 in 2009. That leaves at least 3 B77Ws un accounted for.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): - KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet. These aircraft will be phased out from 2014, when they are 25 years old. A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): - In 2014-2015 KL will start replacing the MD11 fleet

The MD11 and B74E fleets (as well as the AF A343 fleet, for that matter) have very similar seat numbers, and could well be replaced with a single type of aircraft. The combis work well for KLM, but the airline will not be able to source a similar combi aircraft in the future, so the loss of cargo space will have to be compensated by growth at the cargo division.

As for the B747 replacement, the first retirements will actually be in the end of 2012 or beginning of 2013, when the first two full passenger aircraft (PH-BFA and PH-BFB) will be phased out. The first combi (PH-BFC) will come up for retirement in 2014. KLM will retire the B747s at the occassion of their 4th D-check. The aircraft mentioned in here have relatively recently (over the past year that is) received their 3rd D-check.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):

Have you more information on when these newly ordered aircraft are being delivered?

In addition to the 4 77W in 2008 and 2009, will this mean 2 in 2010 as well?

Will the A332 come in 2009?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9): That leaves at least 3 B77Ws un accounted for.

2 have been ordered today and KLM took an option on another three frames, 1 737-700 and 2 777-300.
Just to sum up and give overview:

KLM has on (firm) order:

Boeing:

6 x 777-306ER, 0 in operation, 2 options
0 x 777-206ER, 15 in operation, 0 options
6 x 737-8K2, 15 in operation, 0(?) options
13 x 737-7K2, 0 in operation, 13 on order, 1 option

The 737's on order will be winglet equipped.

Airbus:

3 x A330-200, 9 in operation, ? options

Embraer:

10 x E190, 0 in operation, 9 options

Quoting KL577 (Reply 10): Have you more information on when these newly ordered aircraft are being delivered?

777-306ER:
PH-BVA - Feb 2008
PH-BVB - Mar 2008
PH-BVC - Mar 2009
PH-BVD - Jun 2009
PH-BVE - Mar 2010
PH-BVF - Nov 2011

737-7K2:
PH-BGD - Jul 2008
PH-BGE - Aug 2008
PH-BGF - Aug 2008
PH-BGG - Dec 2008
PH-BGH - Feb 2009
PH-BGI - Apr 2009
PH-BGK - Feb 2010
PH-BGL - Apr 2010
PH-BGM - Sep 2011
PH-BGN - Okt 2011

737-8K2:
PH-BXW - Dec 2007
PH-BXY - Feb 2008
PH-BXZ - Mrt 2008
PH-BGA - Apr 2008
PH-BGB - May 2008
PH-BGC - May 2008

A330-200:
PH-AOL - Feb 2008
PK-AOM - Jan 2010
PH-AON - Jan 2011

The Embraers will be delivered from Nov 2008 onwards, approximately at a rate of 1 in every 2 months, ending in Mar 2010.

[Edited 2007-11-22 02:44:59]

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 11): 6 x 737-8K2, 15 in operation, 0(?) options 13 x 737-7K2, 0 in operation, 13 on order, 1 option

Are all the new 737s Transavia versions? They will not be 737-706/806?

Thanks!


raggi

Quoting Raggi (Reply 12): Are all the new 737s Transavia versions? They will not be 737-706/806

No, for some reason KLM is ordering all 737's under the K2 customer code since the introduction of the 737-800 and -900. To clarify: orders under the Transavia customer code are not destined for Transavia, but KLM mainline. When Transavia books an order, the planes do get the K2 designator, but are announced separately.
So KLM only operates the 737-x06 in the -300 and -400 series.

KLM mainline 737 fleet:
737-306
737-406
737-7K2 (on order)
737-8K2
737-9K2

[Edited 2007-11-22 03:19:09]

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 11): Embraer: 10 x E190, 0 in operation, 9 options

These will be very good-looking aircraft. I hope to see them at TXL, it was nice to see the Fokkers, but I prefer the E-Jets.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): 2 x B777-300 3 x B737-700 2 x A330-200

Nice mix, indeed. 77Ws will look nice.

Nice to see a European schedule carrier that have 737NG (with SAS), unlike all other who chose the A32S

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13): No, for some reason KLM is ordering all 737's under the K2 customer code since the introduction of the 737-800 and -900. To clarify: orders under the Transavia customer code are not destined for Transavia, but KLM mainline. When Transavia books an order, the planes do get the K2 designator, but are announced separately. So KLM only operates the 737-x06 in the -300 and -400 series.

What could be the resaon for the K2 customer code? It looks strange to me but I'm sure they will have a good reason for it.

KL911

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16): What could be the resaon for the K2 customer code? It looks strange to me but I'm sure they will have a good reason for it.

If I am not mistaking it is because the Transavia and KLM 737's are identically configured. Sure, the number of seats differ (e.g. 171 on the 738 for KL and 186 for HV), but all the systems and customer-configurable options are the same. Theoretically the 737's can be swapped between HV and KL by just moving a few seats in or out (and painting the outside off course).

With the profit the AF/KL group just posted they must have thought let's go shopping

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3716106

[Edited 2007-11-22 04:23:10]

How old will the MD11's be at retirement?

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 19): How old will the MD11's be at retirement?

They were delivered form 1993-97, so 17-21 years old by 2014.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet. These aircraft will be phased out from 2014, when they are 25 years old. A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose.

hmmmm seems odd this statement. KLM will remove all their 747s and replace them with either A350s or 787s?? Well if they went for the 787 then there is some massive drop in capacity and cargo! The A350 is a larger aircraft soo it will have the upper hand and also can be used to replace the MD-11s.
Maybe Boeing will develop a 7478-Combi also and KLM may be very interested in those!!

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 21): KLM will remove all their 747s and replace them with either A350s or 787s?? Well if they went for the 787 then there is some massive drop in capacity and cargo! The A350 is a larger aircraft soo it will have the upper hand and also can be used to replace the MD-11s. Maybe Boeing will develop a 7478-Combi also and KLM may be very interested in those!!

KLM has explicitly stated that they are not going for any more combis because of regulatory hurdles. They will replace the B74Es with aircraft with similar seating capacity. The B74Es currently seat about 280 passengers, so those are the kind of numbers we are looking at. The MD11s seat just a bit more at around 295, so the 17 B74Es + 10 MD11s could be replaced with a single aircraft type. To cover the shortfall of cargo capacity KL/AF will further build dedicated freighter fleets. In regard to the B74E and MD11 replacements, it is also interesting to note that AF has almost 20 A343s with similar seating capacity to replace, so we could well be looking at a joint order.

Quoting Degenfly (Reply 20): They were delivered form 1993-97, so 17-21 years old by 2014.

Cheers man

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose.

Any rumor of a combi? I have only seen KLM with combis.....does anyone else have them?

Dave

Quoting Davescj (Reply 24): Any rumor of a combi?

I know the articles of the OP are in Dutch, but as HB-IWC already stated: the combi's will leave the fleet.
The pax capacity of this plane will be replaced about 1:1 by A350 / B787 and the lost cargo capacity will be recuperated by dedicated freighters. I think it is not unthinkable KLM will convert some of the combi's to dedicated freighters for the use withing AF-KL Cargo.
KLM is not buying new combi's because of the changed safety regulations that require combi's to have fire proof dividers (amongst other things) and are hence uneconomical to operate.

So the lucrative Paramaribo-Amsterdam route will be flown with Trippel-7, I thought KLM surely could fill up A380ies on this route and many other?

Bad news all along. I don´t like the fleet development of KLM at all. 773s and 787s or A350 replacing the great 744. Can´t get worse for my taste.
No words about the full-pax 744 replacement though. Still hope for some 748Is or A380s I hope.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 26): So the lucrative Paramaribo-Amsterdam route will be flown with Trippel-7, I thought KLM surely could fill up A380ies on this route and many other?

No way. The A380 is too big for KLM. Period. KLM simply lacks the volume and the number of sustainable routes. Come on, KLM has only 5 full-pax 747's! There's no way the A380 fits in KLM's plans.
The PMB route can be served with daily 77W or if needed twice daily 332/772 or a combination of those 3 planes.

Quoting NA (Reply 27): No words about the full-pax 744 replacement though. Still hope for some 748Is or A380s I hope

No hope for the A380 and I think neither for the 748i. Although the 748 cannot be discarded completely, the current 5 full-pax frames of KL do not really justify the 748. It's more likely KLM will opt for the 77W, unless the 748-pax sales really pick up and it proves to be a very good plane.

PHKLM, so you don´t think AF could use some of the A380ies surplus capacity if any?

Really great to see KL ordering the 77W.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): In 2014-2015 KL will start replacing the MD11 fleet

That is really good. Then it is no hurry for me to catch one of that birds.

Looks like a bleak future for KLM in terms of an attractive fleet. It will be boring twinjets all the way.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): - KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet. These aircraft will be phased out from 2014, when they are 25 years old. A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose. - In 2014-2015 KL will start replacing the MD11 fleet

My prediction would be A350-1000 to replace the 747 combis and A350-900 to replace the MD 11 no 747-8I or A380 for KLM.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14): it was nice to see the Fokkers, but I prefer the E-Jets.

I hope to fly on their Fokkers before they will be gone.

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): In 2014-2015 KL will start replacing the MD11 fleet

Why don't they replace them now, with A-330-300s, and sell the MD-11s to freighter companies?

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): KL will no longer order B772, but any 777 order will be 773.

This makes sense.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 2): I predict that in 2020 KLM will have a fleet of 15 B787's, 40 A350's, 30 A380's and 75 Y1's from Boeing.

Will the Y-1 be flying in 2020? Why would KL need A-380s, or A-350s and B-787s?

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter): KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet. These aircraft will be phased out from 2014, when they are 25 years old. A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose.

The A-350s and B-787s are not B-747C replacements. A decision between the A-350 and B-787 should be as a MD-11 and A-330 replacements. The B-747C replacement will probibly be B-777-300ERs.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33): Why don't they replace them now, with A-330-300s, and sell the MD-11s to freighter companies?

Because the MD-11s is suitable for KLM, and they are not so old.

RfP is expected for around 100 B787 / A350XWB for 2008 for both Air France and KLM. At the same time AF considers expanding their A380 order.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...OWJONESDJONLINE000518_FORTUNE5.htm

[Edited 2007-11-22 06:39:06]

I read somewhere that the reason KLM uses the K2 code for their 737 NG aircraft was because Transavia (being part of KLM) had already ordered and was using the Boeing 737 NG aircraft. They had already got the 737 NG and had it certified in the Netherlands and so to save money and time, KLM just ordered them under the Transavia code and saved them the problem of having to put a new aircraft type through the process.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33): The A-350s and B-787s are not B-747C replacements. A decision between the A-350 and B-787 should be as a MD-11 and A-330 replacements. The B-747C replacement will probibly be B-777-300ERs.

No. The CEO clearly stated a replacement of the 747 combi's with 787 or 350. This makes sense because:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22): KLM has explicitly stated that they are not going for any more combis because of regulatory hurdles. They will replace the B74Es with aircraft with similar seating capacity. The B74Es currently seat about 280 passengers, so those are the kind of numbers we are looking at.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 29): PHKLM, so you don´t think AF could use some of the A380ies surplus capacity if any

Not really. It doesn't make much sense to use overcapacity at AF to create overcapacity at KL. There really aren't any routes on which KLM could make good use of the A380. It will either result in fare dumping or have a very ill-mix of C and Y seats.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33): Will the Y-1 be flying in 2020? Why would KL need A-380s, or A-350s and B-787s?

I'm 99% sure this was mean sarcastically, otherwise this Chiad person is completely nuts.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33): The A-350s and B-787s are not B-747C replacements. A decision between the A-350 and B-787 should be as a MD-11 and A-330 replacements. The B-747C replacement will probibly be B-777-300ERs.

Well, once again: the 747C (properly called 74M) WILL be replaced by A350 / 787. As is explained now numerous times in this thread the pax capacity of the 74M is around 280, that fits perfectly for the A350 and B787. The cargo capacity will have to be replaced with dedicated cargo planes. The 77W is way to big in pax terms to replace the 74M.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 34): Because the MD-11s is suitable for KLM, and they are not so old.

Furthermore, it's pretty hard to get A330's in the short term. Why order A330's now and wait until they are delivered around 2010 whereas waiting a few more years results in receiving the B787 / A350.

Actually AF/KLM are preparing a MEGA-order of more than 100 wide-bodies for Q1 2008 following "La Tribune"

Here

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 39): Actually AF/KLM are preparing a MEGA-order of more than 100 wide-bodies for Q1 2008 following "La Tribune" Here

The text is in French. Do you have a link in English??

Air France will pass a giant aircraft order
The group will pass Franco in 2008 an order of a hundred aircraft for long-range medium capacity. The tender will be launched shortly will put competing Airbus A350 and Boeing 787.

A command worthy Emirates. According to sources at Air France, the group will spend in 2008 a giant one hundred long-range aircraft average capacity. This battle is going to compete on Boieng 787 and Airbus A350. These will be used both to replace a portion of the Boeing 747 combi KLM and A340 even 777-200 Air France.

For the moment, Air France is studying the two aircraft. Once the assessment is completed, a tender will be launched. According to other sources the order will be passed in the first half of 2008. They will be shared by the whole group. Deliveries could begin from 2013 or 2014. For now, the decision to select any or all Airbus Boeing has not yet been taken.

The fact that Rolls Royce is for the time being the only manufacturer of the A350 can play in the Airbus disadvantage insofar as Air France, already faithful Boeing for its long-haul fleet is also a loyal customer General Electric? Hard to say. Because the American engine manufacturers could very well come back in the race and attend at least the first two versions of the A350 (Type 800 and Type 900). That could be fine for Air France, which does not seem interested in the 1000, the largest in capacity.

Finally, on the A380, commissioned for an hour to twelve copies by Air France, the French company could play its options on two copies within three or four years.

Such a statement is rather rare in Air France, which has always preferred to regular orders massive orders. Thus, today, the group has ordered 112 planes. They will be delivered within four years.


Delay Compensation received for the A380
Air France has received in the second quarter of Airbus part of the compensation for delays of the A380. The sum is not sent at the request of Airbus. It would be "low" in terms of the balance of the penalties that the European aircraft manufacturer has yet to be paid.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 41):

Thank you so much, for translating the article.


Really interesting read.

I really hope for the 787. We will see what will happen.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 40): The text is in French. Do you have a link in English??

The French-Dutch company Air France KLM is going to order 100 long-haul medium-sized aircraft at the beginning of 2008. The company will match the competing A350 and B787

According to sources within the company AFKL is going to place an "Emirates sized order" in 2008, aimed at replacing the KLM 747-combi and Air France A340 and B772.

At the moment, AFKL is evaluating both types. After this evaluation, the combined order will be placed in the first half of 2008. At this time, the choice "Boeing or Airbus?" is not made yet.

Is the fact that Rolls Royce at this time is the only engine supplier on the A350 unfavorable for Airbus? A valid question seen the fact AF has a long standing history of choosing Boeing and GE for its long-haul fleet. It's hard to tell. It could very well be that GE is going to offer engines for at least the A350-800 and -900, and AFKL doesn't seem interested in the -1000 anyway.

Finally, concerning the A380, currently ordered for 12 frames, this order can be enlarged by exercising 2 options within 3 or 4 years from now.

A mega order like this is very rare for Air France, they have always preferred to place small and frequent orders, not massive ones. Currently the Pegasus group has 112 planes on order, to be delivered in 4 years.

Furthermore, Air France has received a third payment from Airbus for the delay on the A80 program. The amount of this payment is not disclosed.

Beaucaire, you used a translation tool while I was sweating typing a hand-made translation   
Fortunately, my translation is better anyway   

Quoting NA (Reply 31): Looks like a bleak future for KLM in terms of an attractive fleet. It will be boring twinjets all the way.

There is nothing boring about KLM's 777 fleet. I just got back from a quick trip to Amsterdam. PH-BQG (Galapagos) outbound and PH-BQB (Borobudur) on the return. Those huge GE90's give quite a ride! While KLM service is not luxurious, the crew were friendly and attentive, and the AVOD kept me occupied the entire time in both directions. I love the fact that they still give out the Delft Houses in Business Class. Got another 2 to add to my collection.

One of the hallmarks of KLM is sound and sensible (if a bit boring) management. KLM looks after the bottom line better than most airlines. They can be trusted to select the most sensible fleet for their needs. A.nutter armchair CEO's on the other hand are known for their irrational fleet desires based on adolescent school-girl desire for more spotting opportunities. Hmmmm, I wonder which option works best for keeping an airline flying?   

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 44): my translation is better anyway

That is true. Much better. Understood more from your translation compared to Beaucaires

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 44): Beaucaire, you used a translation tool while I was sweating typing a hand-made translation hissyfit Fortunately, my translation is better anyway snaggletooth

uitstekende vertaling-gelukwensen !

[Edited 2007-11-22 07:34:23]

numerous rumours indicate that this order is already in boeings corner. but we'll see what comes out..

Quoting LarSPL (Reply 48): numerous rumours indicate that this order is already in boeings corner

OMG, really hope that that rumours are true. God, what I would love to see AF/KL operate the 787.