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Beaucaire
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:36 pm

With a $/Euro exchange-rate close to 1.5,it's getting easy for Boeing to catch this one.
Letting slide the $ to where it currently is,will sooner or later backfire on the US -but that's another story.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:46 pm



Quoting KL577 (Thread starter):
KL will no longer order B772

 Sad

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):

Nice mix, indeed. 77Ws will look nice.

..not as good as their -200ER's.. Smile

Quoting PA110 (Reply 45):
There is nothing boring about KLM's 777 fleet

..absolutely not, they are one of the most stunning birds out there... yes 



MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777

"Up the Irons!"
 
kl911
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:54 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 51):
..absolutely not, they are one of the most stunning birds out there...

I knew you would put your photo here again........  Smile
 
billreid
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:10 pm



Quoting Chiad (Reply 2):
I predict that in 2020 KLM will have a fleet of 15 B787's, 40 A350's, 30 A380's and 75 Y1's from Boeing.

Sorry. KL will never buy the A380. They consider the market too small for thst size an aircraft. KL is also on record saying the consumer wants frequency not size. In the case of AMS this is absolutely the case.

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 7):
I can see them making a joint order for anything B787/A350/(A380), maybe not KL for the A380.

This makes logical sense. AF-KL needs some aircraft diversity. If they went all Airbus and the A350 had a problem then both companies would be at risk. It makes sense to protect business with a split order.

Quoting NA (Reply 31):
Looks like a bleak future for KLM in terms of an attractive fleet. It will be boring twinjets all the way.

Boring is better than bankruptcy with gas-guzzling quads in a $150 fuel scenario.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:18 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 50):
With a $/Euro exchange-rate close to 1.5,it's getting easy for Boeing to catch this one.
Letting slide the $ to where it currently is,will sooner or later backfire on the US -but that's another story.

I believe the prices for Airbus aircraft are also in USD, so that makes no difference. It does hurt Airbus' bottom line however...
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:20 pm



Quoting KL911 (Reply 52):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 51):
..absolutely not, they are one of the most stunning birds out there...

I knew you would put your photo here again........

LOL as soon as someone said they were boring I thought - "I bet Jacobin777 put his KL772ER pic up" - hahahahaha Big grin

As far as the order is concerned, I have the following points to make:

Both carriers operate the A332 - will they be replacing these in the order as well?

A mix of 788 and A358/9s would be excellent IMHO.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:22 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 50):
With a $/Euro exchange-rate close to 1.5,it's getting easy for Boeing to catch this one.
Letting slide the $ to where it currently is,will sooner or later backfire on the US -but that's another story.

IMHO the Airbus aircraft are priced in USD dollar as well.. That is why Airbus is having so much trouble (yes, and the A380 with its wires). At the launch of Power8 a journalist asked Airbus "what's your best guess for the USD/EUR in 5 years" from now (the dollar was at 1,30USD/EUR) and Airbus replied with "somewhere around 1,45USD/EUR". Look at where we are today, 1,49USD/EUR!
So you can be sure Airbus is really having a hard time setting up hedges and is trying to incur costs in USD as well.

Based on nothing more than my personal feeling I think they opt for Boeing and GE for long-haul and Airbus NSE a few years later.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 47):
uitstekende vertaling-gelukwensen

Merci. But keep practicing  Wink
 
Beaucaire
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:24 pm



Quoting Kappel (Reply 54):
I believe the prices for Airbus aircraft are also in USD, so that makes no difference. It does hurt Airbus' bottom line however...

But Boeing will have less pains to concede discounts while Toulouse will stick as much as possible to list price,knowing that an exchange-rate of 1.48/1 in favour of the $ leaves no room for manoeuvering for Airbus.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
davescj
Posts: 1289
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:24 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 41):
Air France will pass a giant aircraft order
The group will pass Franco in 2008 an order of a hundred aircraft for long-range medium capacity. The tender will be launched shortly will put competing Airbus A350 and Boeing 787.

I think some of the group order will be A380s, but for AF not KL. I hope KL decides to purchase 748, but hard to say. Somehow, I think the wide bodies are goign to be Airbus with all the push from airbus -- which remember is part owned by the French government.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
behramjee
Posts: 5136
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:29 pm



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
In regard to the B74E and MD11 replacements, it is also interesting to note that AF has almost 20 A343s with similar seating capacity to replace, so we could well be looking at a joint order.

Unfortunately for Boeing, the B 789 isnt the perfect replacement aircraft for the B 74E and MD 11. If Boeing want this order, they have to speed up developing the B 787-100X as that is a future replacement aircraft for the A 333, A 343, B 772ER, MD 11 and B 744 Combis.

If they cant offer the B 781 by Farnborough 2008, then the A 359 will win the KLM order.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 2):
I predict that in 2020 KLM will have a fleet of 15 B787's, 40 A350's, 30 A380's and 75 Y1's from Boeing.

keep dreaming lol
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:29 pm



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 43):
It could very well be that GE is going to offer engines for at least the A350-800 and -900, and AFKL doesn't seem interested in the -1000 anyway.

I thought Airbus wasn't offering a GE engine on any model of the A350 since GE was proposing the GEnx engine also offered on the 787 for the A358/9. Airbus wants any engine for the A350 to have better TSFC than 787 engines.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:36 pm



Quoting KL911 (Reply 52):
uoting Jacobin777 (Reply 51):
..absolutely not, they are one of the most stunning birds out there...

I knew you would put your photo here again........  Smile



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 55):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 52):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 51):
..absolutely not, they are one of the most stunning birds out there...

I knew you would put your photo here again........

LOL as soon as someone said they were boring I thought - "I bet Jacobin777 put his KL772ER pic up" - hahahahaha  biggrin 

 rotfl ...hahaha....Both of you KNEW I was going to be putting that photo up...THE most beautiful bird in the sky right now.. biggrin 

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 57):

But Boeing will have less pains to concede discounts while Toulouse will stick as much as possible to list price,knowing that an exchange-rate of 1.48/1 in favour of the $ leaves no room for manoeuvering for Airbus.

...au contraire Beaucaire... Smile

--

"The European manufacturer has cut the price of its A350 by half and is also offering other inducements to persuade airlines to order its aircraft. Airbus has been caught out by the success of the Dreamliner, which is now the fastest-selling commercial jet in history.

The list prices for the A350-800 and 900 models are $189 million and $215 million, but Airbus is understood to be offering either one for $102 million (£51 million), a discount of 46 per cent and 53 per cent respectively.

Discounts are common in aerospace, but industry sources say that such large price reductions are rare. Boeing, by comparison, is thought to be offering discounts of one third on the 787, reducing the price from $153 million to $102 million. "*

--

*source:timesonline.com-April 2007

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 60):
I thought Airbus wasn't offering a GE engine on any model of the A350 since GE was proposing the GEnx engine also offered on the 787 for the A358/9. Airbus wants any engine for the A350 to have better TSFC than 787 engines.

...they aren't right now, but there is still talk of GE eventually powering the A350's down the line...
"Up the Irons!"
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 59):
If they cant offer the B 781 by Farnborough 2008, then the A 359 will win the KLM order.

Agree.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 60):
I thought Airbus wasn't offering a GE engine on any model of the A350 since GE was proposing the GEnx engine also offered on the 787 for the A358/9. Airbus wants any engine for the A350 to have better TSFC than 787 engines.

I think it is the worst kept secret in aviation that Airbus is in talks to offer a GENX derivative on the A350XWB. Expect an announcment early next year one way or the other.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 60):
I thought Airbus wasn't offering a GE engine on any model of the A350 since GE was proposing the GEnx engine also offered on the 787 for the A358/9. Airbus wants any engine for the A350 to have better TSFC than 787 engines.

The original article in French (as linked by Beaucaire) is saying this in a speculative tone. I am afraid while translating I lost this tone. The focus should lie on "could". Basically, the article says the Airbus option remains open in case GE comes up with something nice for the A350.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:43 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 62):
I think it is the worst kept secret in aviation that Airbus is in talks to offer a GENX derivative on the A350XWB. Expect an announcment early next year one way or the other.

I think the QR B787/B777 order was the worst kept secret in aviation... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:55 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 64):


Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 62):
I think it is the worst kept secret in aviation that Airbus is in talks to offer a GENX derivative on the A350XWB. Expect an announcment early next year one way or the other.

I think the QR B787/B777 order was the worst kept secret in aviation...

No, your KLM772 picture is the worst kept secret in aviation!  Wink
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Thrust
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:01 pm

Something tells me that a few A380s might be wearing the KLM colors a few years from now if the 747s are going to be leaving in a few years.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:16 pm



Quoting Thrust (Reply 66):
Something tells me that a few A380s might be wearing the KLM colors a few years from now if the 747s are going to be leaving in a few years.

Something tells me you should read a little better  sarcastic 
 
jfk787nyc
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:25 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 61):
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 57):

But Boeing will have less pains to concede discounts while Toulouse will stick as much as possible to list price,knowing that an exchange-rate of 1.48/1 in favour of the $ leaves no room for manoeuvering for Airbus.

...au contraire Beaucaire... Smile

--

"The European manufacturer has cut the price of its A350 by half and is also offering other inducements to persuade airlines to order its aircraft. Airbus has been caught out by the success of the Dreamliner, which is now the fastest-selling commercial jet in history.

The list prices for the A350-800 and 900 models are $189 million and $215 million, but Airbus is understood to be offering either one for $102 million (£51 million), a discount of 46 per cent and 53 per cent respectively.

Discounts are common in aerospace, but industry sources say that such large price reductions are rare. Boeing, by compariso

I am starting to feel all Airbus wants is their name in the papers to take the buzz away from Boeing. If they really are selling A350s at 102 Million Dollars that is only 51 Million EURO. So, That means 300 Planes and they made only 15 Billion Euro's Revenue. I hope Airbus starts thinking about moving the A350 production to China, Because at these prices they will go bankrupt. Does anyone know how much Airbus spent on R&D for the A350? If it's 15 Billion then obviously they need to sell around 600 Planes at these prices to make a profit?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:56 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 65):

No, your KLM772 picture is the worst kept secret in aviation!  Wink

....hey, hey...c'mon now mate..I'm not that bad... liar  duck   Smile

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 68):
If it's 15 Billion then obviously they need to sell around 600 Planes at these prices to make a profit?

...they won't have a problem hitting those numbers... Wink

I think the larger issue is regarding the Power8 program...with Airbus having a record order year and such a healthy backlog, its going to be difficult for them to negotiate with the unions.
"Up the Irons!"
 
bmacleod
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:16 pm

Quoting KL577 (Thread starter):
- KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet. These aircraft will be phased out from 2014, when they are 25 years old. A decision between A350 and B787 will be made in mid 2008 for this purpose.

Isn't the 787 rather small for a 747 replacement? The Combi version maybe but the A350-1000 looks a lot more likely...

So that's it, KLM has shut the door on the A380?

[Edited 2007-11-22 10:17:34]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
na
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 pm



Quoting PA110 (Reply 45):
There is nothing boring about KLM's 777 fleet. I just got back from a quick trip to Amsterdam

I didn´t say KLMs 777 fleet is boring. I said with only twinjets and all aircraft smaller than the current flagship 744 the FUTURE KLM fleet will be boring. That won´t be before the end of the next decade though.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 53):
Boring is better than bankruptcy with gas-guzzling quads in a $150 fuel scenario.

Are you a beancounter or an aviation enthusiast? I´m the latter and can´t think of a fleet more boring than one which only consists of small and mediumsized twinjets.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:47 pm



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 68):
102 Million Dollars that is only 51 Million EURO

Do what?

I make it 0.67 exchange rate so - US$102m would be €68.3m.

Perhaps you are thinking of GBP£?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4103
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:57 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 27):
No words about the full-pax 744 replacement though. Still hope for some 748Is or A380s I hope.



Quoting Thrust (Reply 66):
Something tells me that a few A380s might be wearing the KLM colors a few years from now if the 747s are going to be leaving in a few years.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 70):
So that's it, KLM has shut the door on the A380?

As it has been said ad nauseum here, the A380 is way too big for KLM. The airline has just 5 full passenger B744s to replace and as the B77W is bound to have a very similar seat configuration to that of the B744, it is quite likely that KLM will replace the B744s with additional B77Ws, if at all.

Indeed, KLM does currently have very little need for aircraft containing over 400 seats, and recent network developments related to the full passenger B744 deployment are reinforcing this point of view:

* Caribbean - KLM used to operate the B744 on sectors to CUR, AUA and SXM until last year, but because of increased competition on those routes, the airline has opted to deploy the smaller MD11s on the entire Caribbean network ;

* Toronto - KLM is hauling a lot of passengers on the AMS YYZ route, yet, with the introduction of a second daily flight on the route, the need for the B744 has diminished and next summer the aircraft will completely disappear from the YYZ route, to be replaced by twice daily B772ER flights ;

* Johannesburg - with the introduction of a second daily AF flight on the JNB route, demand at KLM has reduced, and the airline no longer deploys the B744 to JNB, instead sending a daily B74E combi aircraft ;

* Nairobi - KLM has recently introduced the B744 on the AMS NBO route, which is a busy interhub route between Europe and East and Central Africa. Yet, the airline has not often been able to actually fill the aircraft and a B772ER would have taken care of the job just as well ;

* Paramaribo - one of KLM's trunk routes, the AMS PBM flight is however very season by nature. Packed during holidays, yet sometimes flying with just a handful of passengers during off peak periods. KLM is not operating a daily frequency on this low yielding route, offering just a thrice weekly service. There have been plans to replace the B744 service by a 4 weekly MD11 service, as the airline is hardly selling any of the 42 premium seats on the route ;

It is obvious then that KLM barely needs the capacity of the full pax B744, and the airline is constantly shifting around the extra capacity offered by the aircraft, in order to optimize the use of these resources. Currently, the most successful combo of routes for the B744 deployment seems to be SFO/DEL, which are served in summer/winter respectively, and which are mostly filling up the aircraft. Also, selected Asian flights to NRT and KUL-CGK fill up the aircraft nicely. None of these routes, however, necessitate the deployment of the much larger A380.

Next summer, KLM will send the B744 to SFO (daily), JFK (daily), NBO (3-5 weekly), PBM (3 weekly) as well as on selected flights to NRT, KUL and CGK. Only SFO and PBM will truly need the capacity offered by the B744.
 
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Fyano773
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:03 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:11 pm



Quoting KL577 (Thread starter):
- KL is actively searching for a replacement of the 747-combi fleet

Any plan to change the 747-Combi in the AMS-MEX run for 777 or A332?

Fyano
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting LY777 (Reply 15):
Nice to see a European schedule carrier that have 737NG (with SAS), unlike all other who chose the A32S

There are many other European scheduled carriers operating the 737NG in addition to SK and KL.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:01 pm

Don't know if it had been reported already, but according to the Airbus press release, KLM did not just convert 2 options into firm order, it also took 2 new options, which means they aren't done with the A332 yet.
 
LY777
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:04 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 75):

But they are very rare:

-AF, IB, TP, BA, EI, LH, LX, OK, AZ, SN doesn't operate 737NGs.

Maersk, Tarom and Luxair operate 737NG, that's right, but they are not "major" airlines.
Air Europa, too, but I was talking about National carriers, sorry.
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting LY777 (Reply 77):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 75):


But they are very rare:

-AF, IB, TP, BA, EI, LH, LX, OK, AZ, SN doesn't operate 737NGs.

Maersk, Tarom and Luxair operate 737NG, that's right, but they are not "major" airlines.
Air Europa, too, but I was talking about National carriers, sorry.

"National carrier" is a meaningless term now, with all except a few airlines privately owned. You're also overlooking Ryanair, Easyjet, Air Berlin, Turkish Airlines, among others. OS also operates the 737NG.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19540
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:32 pm



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 73):
As it has been said ad nauseum here, the A380 is way too big for KLM.

The same was said about BA and the A380. wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:09 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 79):
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 73):
As it has been said ad nauseum here, the A380 is way too big for KLM.

The same was said about BA and the A380.  Wink

..but the CEO of BA never stated the A380 was too big, unlike that of the CEO of KL... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
JRadier
Posts: 3962
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:22 pm

I'm gone one day..... look at this thread

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):
KLM mainline 737 fleet:

Don't forget the 2 737-4Y0s, BPB and BPC. They are the only ex AirUK Leisure aircraft left.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 17):
Theoretically the 737's can be swapped between HV and KL by just moving a few seats in or out

And they do. KLM has flown HV aircraft before, quite recently I believe HZL and HZM
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:27 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 80):
but the CEO of BA never stated the A380 was too big, unlike that of the CEO of KL...

The CEO of KLM? You mean the Dutchman running Air France, Holland?

Really, whatever KLM will operate will be decided in Paris, NOT Amsterdam and Air France has indicated they are 'likely' going to place a follow up order on A380s next year...

It will be interesting to see if these additional Superjumbos will all be based at CDG, or if some may see better use from AMS. Even a single AMS based A380 in KLM colours is a theoretical possibility considering AF-KL is just 1 airline with 2 brand names.
 
jacobin777
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:11 am



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 82):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 80):
but the CEO of BA never stated the A380 was too big, unlike that of the CEO of KL...

The CEO of KLM? You mean the Dutchman running Air France, Holland?

.I should have stated the COO of KL....Peter Hartman, obviously Jean-Cyril Spinetta is the CEO of the parent group
"Up the Irons!"
 
MrFord
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 9:03 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:43 am



Quoting DK001 (Reply 36):
I read somewhere that the reason KLM uses the K2 code for their 737 NG aircraft was because Transavia (being part of KLM) had already ordered and was using the Boeing 737 NG aircraft. They had already got the 737 NG and had it certified in the Netherlands and so to save money and time, KLM just ordered them under the Transavia code and saved them the problem of having to put a new aircraft type through the process.

Well close enough, if my information is correct.
Seeing that KL already operated 737-806 before buing out Transavia, they already operated with an NG certificate.
What I heard is that the winglet version must be operated under a different certificate in Netherlands. So when they decided to add some winglets-equipped NG, it was easier to use Transavia operating certificate, hence the K2 customer code at Boeing.
"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:36 am



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 82):
The CEO of KLM? You mean the Dutchman running Air France, Holland?

Really, whatever KLM will operate will be decided in Paris, NOT Amsterdam and Air France has indicated they are 'likely' going to place a follow up order on A380s next year...

I think your overreacting a little bit. The current CEO and the former CEO (Hartman and Van WIjk) always said that KLM was able to choose that plane that suits it's needs best. However, you can get a little more discount and there are more synergies when ordering together if you both need the same.

Flying one or two A380's from Amsterdam doesn't make sense, because you need to train to much people to sustain homebase operations from Amsterdam. You need people who can do on-site maintenance, cabin crew, pilots etc. You need to invest to much to make it cost effective to operate. Van Wijk said this earlier and Hartman also said it. But, never say never, if the AF-KLM is able to grow as it is growing now, who knows what is possible in 2020?

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
columba
Posts: 5241
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:44 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 78):
Easyjet

They will be gone pretty soon.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:58 am



Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 85):
I think your overreacting a little bit.

Thrust me, I know how these kind of mergers which are in fact take-overs work. I deal with them professionally.

1,000+ pages of guaranteed independence for the airline which is taken over, yet in the end it is just one phone call from the HQ of the mother company to tell them they are doing something which goes against the interest of the group, the integration strategy, their long term planning or whatever and hops, any decision is immediately reversed.

Still remember how closely knit Swissair and Sabena showed to be in the end?

And how much autonomy do you think Swiss still has, after the take over by Lufthansa?

Same for KLM, it really is just Air France, Holland.

AMS may still decide about the product offered on the ground and on board as this falls under the brand KLM, but don't think for a minute network, fleet or schedule planning is still done there as this clearly falls under the group synergies and as such needs to be taken to a higher level: CDG!
 
KL577
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:07 am



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 87):
AMS may still decide about the product offered on the ground and on board as this falls under the brand KLM, but don't think for a minute network, fleet or schedule planning is still done there as this clearly falls under the group synergies and as such needs to be taken to a higher level: CDG!

AFAIK there is still a large planning and scheduling department in Amstelveen, where Operations Research people do a lot of planning, scheduling and strategic research for the entire group. Maybe the final decisions are taken in Paris, a lot of the information these guys and gals use for their decisions, comes from Amstelveen.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 87):
Thrust me, I know how these kind of mergers which are in fact take-overs work. I deal with them professionally.

You're statement would have been much more convincing, if you knew more about the exact details of the AF-KL merger.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 87):
AMS may still decide about the product offered on the ground and on board as this falls under the brand KLM, but don't think for a minute network, fleet or schedule planning is still done there as this clearly falls under the group synergies and as such needs to be taken to a higher level: CDG!

I don't really know what you are trying to prove, but "under AF" KLM got to invest in 77W's, more 737's, more A330's, E190's, it even gets the AF F100's. I really don't know what you are talking about when you imply that KLM is a mere toy of AF. Open your eyes, because no matter how you look at it, up to now AF has proven to help KLM solidify its position and the brand, not to break it down. KLM has proven to be very valuable to AF and in return I see nothing but respect, both in official communication from CDG as well as midnight small-talk in the back of the galley on a random AF flight.

If you think AF is setting up the schedule and sending it by fax to AMS to an eager KLM crowd waiting for what "big Mama" has decided and being totally surprised about what they got, you are nuts. You have no clue whatsoever about your statement. I can go in an elaborate defense, but I'd just like you to answer this question: why would AF allow KLM to deploy the larger 77W to GRU while this market is served by a (just launched) double daily AF flight? Wouldn't those "evil French" want that all for themselves?

I have the feeling you are letting your personal feelings dictate your opinion to much. We can be proud KLM has not fallen into this trap of letting sentiment and feelings dictate the merger. It's business above all, and seen the staggering profit numbers and the increasing KLM fleet it seems to work, ain't it?

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 87):
Still remember how closely knit Swissair and Sabena showed to be in the end?

Swissair was milking Sabena and your country is still left with the mess. Fortunately the situation is changing and together with Jet Airways Brussels Airlines is facing a brighter future. It is not unthinkable that in 5 years Brussels Airlines is owned by Jet Airways. I hope you still say the same things when Jet is improving service levels and upgrading the SN fleet.

[quote=Slz396,reply=87]And how much autonomy do you think Swiss still has, after the take over by Lufthansa?

Sorry, but you prove your own lack of insight. LH saved the sick and robbed SWISSAIR, it drastically turned around its operations, invested in the new SWISS fleet, and look where they are today. Old Sabena is only a ghost of what it once was, whereas SWISS is a strong brand, a profitable company and expanding fast. If it was not for the help of LH this would have been impossible. Why is this a bad thing? Please explain to me why SWISS would be better of right now without LH? I really don't get when you...

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 87):
Thrust me, I know how these kind of mergers which are in fact take-overs work. I deal with them professionally.

... are against takeover so much. Since the merger, on every AF plane, in every AF office, on every AF flight around the entire world the proud crown and KLM blue can be seen and heard.



[Edited 2007-11-23 01:43:04]
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:57 am

PHKLM,

Relax my friend!

Seems your emotions, feelings and love when it comes to KLM (hence your user name) are preventing you from reading closely what other have said and are thus getting in the way or a rational discussion.

Have I said anything bad about KLM, just because I have said that the end decision on strategic decisions will not rest with the management in AMS, but with that in CDG? It seems so...

Let me be clear about it: the take-over of KLM by AF was a good move, for BOTH companies, which is why it happened in the first place. It has been a correct take-over, with mutual respect as you rightfully say, offering superb synergies and a lot of advantages to both parties, and the results are something to be proud of. You may wave your flag for that!

However, let there be no misunderstanding about it: this is NOT a merger of equals, KLM does NOT have the upper hand nor does it set the strategy for itself, let alone the group and they do NOT have the autonomy to decide on such important matters as whether or not to operate VLAs or order a large number of 787 vs A350 as it would have been the case if they were still an independent airline. Strategic decisions like that are taken elsewhere; what is left for AMS is the filling in of the plans, their implementation and the subsequent detailed fine tuning. KLM is a subsidiary of AF and as such it obeys to the logic of the group, not its own logic, just as any other entity of a larger group worldwide.

I don't know what is so controversial about the idea really.
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1623
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:14 am



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 87):
Thrust me, I know how these kind of mergers which are in fact take-overs work. I deal with them professionally.

So do I... To be exact, currently working at the company involved...

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 90):
However, let there be no misunderstanding about it: this is NOT a merger of equals, KLM does NOT have the upper hand nor does it set the strategy for itself, let alone the group and they do NOT have the autonomy to decide on such important matters as whether or not to operate VLAs or order a large number of 787 vs A350 as it would have been the case if they were still an independent airline.

You're right, however, Air France doesn't have the upper hand also. Air France also can't make the decisions anymore by itself. Both operating companies need to check with the Holding mother, AF-KLM. There board decides on what's best for Air France and/or KLM. However, all companies can make their own planning, but do so by the guidelines laid out by the Group. One very important guideline is that new planes can be ordered by each respective airline, but preferably with commonality with other planes within (or coming in) the fleet. There is still a lot of independence in the companies. I want to set the record straight as if KLM (of Air France for that matter) is a lame duck sitting in the water and waiting for someone to steer it around the pond.

However, with the upcoming restructuring of the board, there is a chance that there will be less KLM people on the AF-KLM board, therefore making the influence of KLM smaller. This is not a good way to go and Hartman is doing all he can to keep the new board in balance and he is making good progress.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:36 am



Quoting KL577 (Reply 88):
AFAIK there is still a large planning and scheduling department in Amstelveen, where Operations Research people do a lot of planning, scheduling and strategic research for the entire group. Maybe the final decisions are taken in Paris, a lot of the information these guys and gals use for their decisions, comes from Amstelveen.

Very true, and they still need people. I'm invited for a job interview in early December.  Smile

Whatever they do in the future I don't know, but I do speak French, so I guess I'm save.  Smile
 
KL577
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:14 pm



Quoting KL911 (Reply 92):
Very true, and they still need people.

Really, that's interesting news, maybe I'll send them my CV.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 92):
I'm invited for a job interview in early December.

Good luck!
 
United Airline
Posts: 8971
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:19 pm

Wonder if they will order the B 747-8 or the A 380
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:40 pm



Quoting United Airline (Reply 94):
Wonder if they will order the B 747-8 or the A 380

Duh.......... did you actually read the posts above?? No A380 for KLM.........
 
JRadier
Posts: 3962
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:55 pm



Quoting MrFord (Reply 84):
Seeing that KL already operated 737-806 before buing out Transavia, they already operated with an NG certificate.

Oh boy, I'd like to see you produce evidence of a 737-806  Wink. KLM's first 738, PH-BXA, was delivered as a 737-8K2 and so were the rest.
 
KL577
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:59 pm



Quoting United Airline (Reply 94):
Wonder if they will order the B 747-8 or the A 380

 boggled 

Quoting KL911 (Reply 95):
Duh.......... did you actually read the posts above?? No A380 for KLM.........

 checkmark 

The wording of KLM CEO Peter Hartman is very clear:

(http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=23389)
(forgive my quick ranslation (I'm at work and my boss doesn't like it if I spend all my time translating articles for a.net Big grin )

"KLM will not operate the A380. We could easily fill it on routes to Detroit or Minneapolis, but that's it. Given the costs associated, the A380 only becomes interesting if you order a minimum of 10. Airlines who order less then 10 of it, are only concerned with status."

" The 777-300 will replace the 747-400 full pax"

" B787 or A350 will replace the 747-combi and MD-11"
 
larspl
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:53 pm

Person responsible for fleet development within AF-KL is mr Gagey and he is the CFO for KLM..

so far the 'paris will call amstelveen what to order'.


737-K2's where ordered to save on dutch certification and for commonality with HV.

Hartman is still CEO. klm is a separated company under a holding.

KLM is expanding in the larger aircraft market.
up until now we only flew a few 747-full pax. as of next year we'll be adding 777-300ER's with the same pax amount without phasing the 747-full pax out.. so: more a/c with that pax capacity.
bút.. the a380 is not an economical option as stated by multiple armchair ceo's here and hartman seems to agree.
(besides that.. its an ugly plane!)
facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: KLM Orders Extra Airbus And Boeing

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:03 pm

to sum it up for u what KLM is going to add to its fleet or orderd between december 2007 and november 2011:

- 1 747-400ERF (''leased'' to Air France)
-6 777-300ER (starting next year)
-3 A330's
-7 737-800;s (starts in december)
-13 737-700's (starting next year summer)
-3 A330's
-10 EMB-190's (end 2008)
-5 F-70's (ex AF regional)

so that makes 48 ''new'' planes in the upcomming year, quite alot for a medium big airline like KLM.
Don't forget that KLM will order either the A350/787 next year and a replacement for its F-50 fleet (probably EMB-170, but ATR could be possible)

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