El AL To Purchase Used 744 From SQ

amirs · Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:32 am

I guess all the specualtion that LY will stop using 744 as pax is not correct.

EL AL announced yesterday that they plan on purchasing a used 744 from SQ, and will use it as pax from end of 2008.

LY is also looking in purchasing used 744 and convert them to freighters to replace their "aging" 742 that are still used on cargo flights.

I am a bit diappointed with LY, instead of getting NEW planes (to replace the aging 767) they are getting older planes. I think those SQ are older then the oldest 744 EL AL currently has.

I hope its only an inbetween phase, i bet the idea is to convert it to freighter at the end. I can dream the next phase is to get 748i Smile

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:41 am

This is not good news indeed; more old planes...but maybe, as you said, a brighter future will come.
So, the rumour that said that LY would order 77Ws and 787s at the end of 2007 is untrue...

slz396 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:00 am

I suppose that 747-400 the one that recently got replaced by the first A380-800?

Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

I am sure they could make good use of even the A380 on flights to LHR and JFK for instance.

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
I suppose that 747-400 the one that recently got replaced by the first A380-800?

Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

I am sure they could make good use of even the A380 on flights to LHR and JFK for instance.

Right. I think (I hope at least) that they can afford to buy some new a/c, given their very high prices

MEA-707 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

I still can't understand what's the problem with slightly older aircraft? A 744 is supposed to be used economically for 30 years, and it looks great in El Al colours too. I see it as good news if any airline picks up aircraft, old or new. It's a waste to scrap 10 year old aircraft just because everyone wants the newest of the newest. IFE, seatcomfort and meals on board can be just as nice as on a new aircraft, it might just be the airlines choice if it's not.

amirs · Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
IFE, seatcomfort and meals on board can be just as nice as on a new aircraft, it might just be the airlines choice if it's not.

If LY install the new interiors - including the new AVOD seats in the new 772 - that would be AMAZING for LY.

PEET7G · Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 1):
So, the rumour that said that LY would order 77Ws and 787s at the end of 2007 is untrue...

Well this could mean an intermediate solution, couldn't it? After all ordering any of the mentioned planes put you at the end of a waiting-list of ages... Maybe I am too optimistic, but I still see a new plane order in LY 's near future. They can't go on riding those 762s forever Sad

Purely from an enthusiasts point of view it is good to see 744s being used on mainline passenger services and not being converted to freighters all the time Big grin

...the queen will remain queen forever Big grin

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:43 am

As for the 767s, they could at least refurbish the interior with new seats and PTVs a la Air Canada, and new bins (like many carriers, such as UA recently, even though it is not the real 777 signature interior)

AF022 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:43 pm

Will LY get rid of their B762s?

jfk69 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:52 pm

I know we are all a little upset that it is not a new aircraft, but the fact is the fleet is growing which a plus for LY.....I am hoping like the rest of us this is an in between phase but lets keep it positive that we get to fly another 744

seabosdca · Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others

You're like the rich kids back in high school who made fun of anyone whose daddy didn't buy them a new car.

I'm sure the ten-year-old 747-400, with which LY obviously feels it can make money for a good while, will be given a proper once-over before it goes into LY service. I'm glad the airline has sufficiently growing pax volume that it needs more VLAs. champagne

na · Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:04 pm

Nice another SQ 744 has found a new home.

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I think those SQ are older then the oldest 744 EL AL currently has.

SQ has, as much as I know, already sold all 744s built before 1993. El Al received their first 744 in 1994. So maybe its a few months older probably, hardly anything to complain about. They are just half through their life-cycle.
I dont think its a reason to complain about this deal, and nice to hear that 744BCF will replace the old 742Fs, pretty soon I hope.

El Als old 767s and 757s though need replacement. They are around 20 years old and nothing a flag carrier could be proud of anymore.

JGPH1A · Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:18 pm

Speaking of which, do the current LY 744's have PTV is Y ? I'm off to TLV on Monday from LHR and was wondering. Ta.

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):

Yes, LY 744s have PTVs in Y

jfk787nyc · Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:58 pm

LY uses all their planes for years before even considering getting rid of them. They have planes that are 20 plus years old and are still running.

I still believe EL AL will order the 747-800i, They will convert 747-400 to freighter and purchase brand new 747-800i fly them for 15 years and then start converting them to freighter's. Their is no point for EL AL to purchase A380 because after 15-20 years their will be no use for the old planes. Like this EL AL can utilize their planes for at least 30 years.

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:07 pm

double post sorry...

[Edited 2007-11-22 09:19:14]

SEPilot · Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

In a word, money.

PanAm747 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:24 pm

The question with a used 744 is not "how old is it?", but "how well has it been maintained?"

Offhand, I can't think of any airline whose reputation is that of SQ's when it comes to the statement, "only one previous owner". They treat their planes as they do their customers - and can afford to upgrade to newer planes ever few years.

For the lucky buyer, such as LY here, it's the equivalent of finding an immaculate 1966 Mustang with under 100,000 miles and one owner, a little old lady from Pasadena who only drove the car to church once or twice a week for the last 40+ years. An immaculate find that has been passed on like a treasure. LY will get a LOT of use out of these planes!!

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:48 pm

Fortunately, LY has never leased the 743 they wanted from Corsair!

[Edited 2007-11-22 10:48:23]

LXA340 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Speaking of which, do the current LY 744's have PTV is Y ? I'm off to TLV on Monday from LHR and was wondering. Ta.

The system is ancient and the screens are so small that you need a spy glas. The system dates back from 1994 so one of the first entertainment systems that was on the market.

LY777 · Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 19):
The system is ancient and the screens are so small that you need a spy glas. The system dates back from 1994 so one of the first entertainment systems that was on the market.

Indeed, but that's better than nothing IMO. BTW, why does ELD which was delivered in 1999 doesn't have a more modern system?

QF744ER · Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:06 am

Does anyone know the actual frame involved here all is everyone just surmising that it going to be an older mid range 9V-SM* registered plane?

SQ still owns 9V-SMB and -SMD which are leased to FJI and these are 1989 deliveries....

For all we know it could be one of the -SP* planes which were dleivered 1994 and 2001, so it's not really safe to assume anything until exact frames are announced.

Also NA, why are you assuming that these B744's if converted will become BCF's and not IAI/Bedek BDSF's?? Two completely different companies and Bedek is based at TLV where they are doing conversions as we speak.

With regards to SQ B744's...I've heard NW is looking some possibly acquistions.

BreninTW · Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
it's the equivalent of finding an immaculate 1966 Mustang with under 100,000 miles and one owner, a little old lady from Pasadena who only drove the car to church once or twice a week for the last 40+ years.

Would that be the little old lady from Pasadena that the Beach Boys sang about? Big grin

amirs · Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:15 am

My two main concerns are:

1. obviously safety - which we will not need to be worried about;
2. If they refit the interior with latest LY products. I am sure they will install new "F" and C class seats, but hoping they will install new Y seats like in the new 777 with latest AVOD system.

LY777 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 23):
2. If they refit the interior with latest LY products. I am sure they will install new "F" and C class seats, but hoping they will install new Y seats like in the new 777 with latest AVOD system.

I don't think they will install the new Y seats since they won't replace the old seats of their own 744s and oldest 777s.
IMO, they will keep the old Y SQ seats.

semsem · Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:27 am

LY is not in such strong financial condition. The cost saving must be considerable.

LY777 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 25):
LY is not in such strong financial condition. The cost saving must be considerable.

I hope they will recover soon.
what I don't understand with LY is why they are always losing money. Their a/c are ALWAYS full (at least on the CDG route), I have NEVER seen a free seat, and the price of the tickets are always very high.
For example: in november, I wanted to compare the following prices: CDG-MIA-CDG with AF, and CDG-TLV-CDG with LY: it was the same price (knowing that MIA is twice farther than TLV, this is not at all logical). That may be to security reasons? I don't think so, such a difference is not normal; and the worst is that LY is, unfortunately still losing money (or at the best, is not losing nor earning money). I really don't understand...

dutchjet · Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:41 am

I think that some are missing the key point here: 744s can be acquired on the second hand market at rather attractive prices and LY is probably making a very smart business and financial move by expanding its 744 fleet at this time. With A380 deliveries commencing, and with many airlines expanding their 773ER fleets, a number of 744s will become available on the market.....this increased supply will moderate 744 prices, thus, its a good time to be looking at 744s. Due to the A380 program delays, carriers have been holding on to their 747s longer than expected making the second hand market for the 747 rather tight....now that the A380 program is finally back on track, some airlines (such as SQ) can begin the gradual phase out of their 744 fleets.

LY is making a strategic decision: they are already a 744 operator, the 744 works well on LY's longhaul high demand routes, and while the 744 is not ""cutting-edge"", its a very good airplane economically (especially if it can be acquired at favorable prices.)

LY is also buying time, an additional 744 will allow EL AL to expand quickly......when finances permit, I think that LY will go with the 748I which would be an excellent choice for EL AL's TLV-North America routes (especially the JFK services.) And, as pointed out by others, eventually, this 744 (along with the rest of LY's 744 fleet) will be converted to freighters replacing the the aging 742F airplanes. It sounds like a good plan to me.

As for the IFE equipment and seating on the to-be-delivered 744 and LY's existing 744 fleet.....I assume that when finances permit, LY will update those systems, I can only assume that its not a huge priority for LY at this time.

AirbusA6 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:30 pm

It makes lots of sense to purchase selectively on the used market, especially where then are airlines like SQ who turnover their fleet very regularly. I imagine that they'll also start selling their early 772s once the interim A330s start arriving, I'm sure Trent powered 772ERs will be a attractive proposition for many other airlines...

na · Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting QF744ER (Reply 21):
Also NA, why are you assuming that these B744's if converted will become BCF's and not IAI/Bedek BDSF's?? Two completely different companies and Bedek is based at TLV where they are doing conversions as we speak.

With regards to SQ B744's...I've heard NW is looking some possibly acquistions.

I donÃ‚Â´t know if it will be BCFs ord BDSFs, the last is even more likely if you ask me. I just found it too long to write down. How would you call an F-converted 744 in short?

NWA buying some SQ 744s would be a good move and not too much of a surprise. They are PW-powered and NWA has bought secondhand 747s from SQ before. Also NWA has just retired its 742s and part of its 742F fleet is very short of retirement so some more 744s make sense.

LXA340 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 20):
Indeed, but that's better than nothing IMO. BTW, why does ELD which was delivered in 1999 doesn't have a more modern system?

Because this EL AL and financialy healthy or weak the decisions made by the airline where often not understandable.

amirs · Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting Semsem (Reply 25):
LY is not in such strong financial condition. The cost saving must be considerable.

Actually LY posted on a few days ago a quarterly net profit of $41.2 million compared with $1.4 million a year earlier and revenue rose to $567 million from $447 million.

It was at that press conference that they mentioned they are acquiring a 744 that was built in 1994, and will be delivered in November 2008.

amirs · Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:13 pm

just read on their website, they they plan to upgrade the new a/c with LY interior "known for its high level of service"
I wonder if that means old Y or new 777 Y??????

PlaneHunter · Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
I am sure they could make good use of even the A380 on flights to LHR and JFK for instance.

Year-round, with satisfying yields? Enough to outweigh additional costs by introducing that type? Very likely some LY managers have evaluated all options.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

Calling a used SIA 747-400 "old junk" is nothing but nonsense. Yeah sure

PH

bok269 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
The question with a used 744 is not "how old is it?", but "how well has it been maintained?"

There's a DC-9 operator based in MSP who can attest to that.

Glad to hear LY is getting another Jumbo to grace the skies over TLV.

InbarD · Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:07 am

If they don't change their interior to their new product, then it will just look strange. I flew on one of the LY 737-800's from FRA to TLV and it didn't even have the LY livery nor the LY seats inside the aircraft.

LY777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:05 pm

Quoting InbarD (Reply 35):
If they don't change their interior to their new product, then it will just look strange. I flew on one of the LY 737-800's from FRA to TLV and it didn't even have the LY livery nor the LY seats inside the aircraft.

that must be the ugly 4X-EKI:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rotate

na · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 33):
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?Calling a used SIA 747-400 "old junk" is nothing but nonsense. Ã‚Â

Absolutely. Old junk is a different category. You can call DC10s, 732s or 727s old junk today, but not a 744. These aircraft are far too new and too valuable to be insulted that way.

Btw, I am happy, El Al didnt buy "old junk" 777s from other airlines.
Wink

LY777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 32):
just read on their website, they they plan to upgrade the new a/c with LY interior "known for its high level of service"
I wonder if that means old Y or new 777 Y??????

LY said they want to upgrade only the premium classes:
http://www.mccanndigital.co.il/elal/QCeos/en/

DocLightning · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:34 pm

The 744 wasn't obsolete two years ago. Why is everyone acting like El Al just bought a few 707's now? The 744 is a 20-year-old aircraft. It's newer than the 757 and I don't hear anyone complaining about those still being in use.

It's still a darned good plane and I don't blame El Al for wanting more.

PanAm747 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:23 am

Quote:
Would that be the little old lady from Pasadena that the Beach Boys sang about?

It might be, but technically it was Jan & Dean:

...But locked behind door of that old garage
is a brand-new bright-red superstock Dodge...

And everybody's saying that there's no body meaner
that the little old lady from Pasadena..."

I have to admit - it'd be one hell of a picture watching 747's drag race...

amirs · Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 38):
LY said they want to upgrade only the premium classes:
http://www.mccanndigital.co.il/elal/...s/en/

on the new 772, the Y class is also upgraded. the seats are better and AVOD. The difference is that the rest of the 777 and 744 will only get the new premium classes. I was wondering if they will need to refit and get new seats for a full 744, if they will opt to get the new seats they got for 777 or old 744 seats.

Hope they will surprise and have new 777 seats and entertainment system.

LY777 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 41):
on the new 772, the Y class is also upgraded. the seats are better and AVOD.

Yes, my cousin flew one of the new 772 CDG-TLV, and told me that it was GREAT.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 41):
I was wondering if they will need to refit and get new seats for a full 744, if they will opt to get the new seats they got for 777 or old 744 seats.

Do you mean for the 744 that will arrive in 2008, or for all the 777/744s?

ilyag · Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:21 pm

LY's Y product is a disgrace on the older planes. The only good thing about their 744's Y cabin is 34" seat pitch. I know that most of their profits come from the premium cabin, but with LY's Y rates I cannot believe they don't make money there as well. And 80% load factor for LY is considered to be an "empty plane", especially on the NYC routs. For those prices I think we deserve more than the original seats delivered with a plane that is 15 years old (or 24 - for some 762s). Both CO and DL have better Y product (at least in terms of seat and IFE) so LY will be facing problems soon if they keep things as they are.

LY777 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting Ilyag (Reply 43):
And 80% load factor for LY is considered to be an "empty plane", especially on the NYC routs. For those prices I think we deserve more than the original seats delivered with a plane that is 15 years old (or 24 - for some 762s). Both CO and DL have better Y product (at least in terms of seat and IFE) so LY will be facing problems soon if they keep things as they are.

same for the TLV-CDG route, as I said. The problem is that AF can't compete with LY on this route with their tiny A320s

ilyag · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 44):
same for the TLV-CDG route, as I said. The problem is that AF can't compete with LY on this route with their tiny A320s

Why not? Personally, I don't care about the IFE for a 4h flight. Give me A320 in relatively good condition over one of the first 762s any day. AF doesn't offer that amount of seats on CDG-TLV run and, frankly, don't care about the route in general preferring the norther neighbor (and I assume they have good economic reasons for that). But if the price is right and the schedule works for me, I wouldn't care to take A320 instead of LY's 744 or 772 (with the two new ships being exception).

semsem · Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:27 pm

Ilyag I disagree that DL and CO have a better Y product. In terms of overall service LY in my opinion is a zillion times better than the US carriers and most European airlines.

As to the A380 I don't think an Israeli airline has the huuuuuuuge bucks needed to buy or lease this plane. Even the US airlines won't be buying this plane. You need big big deep pockets and size to afford it ie Singapore, Emirates, AF.

LXA340 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:48 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 38):

LY said they want to upgrade only the premium classes:
http://www.mccanndigital.co.il/elal/...s/en/

Something was mentioned there that LY will open a renovated King David Lounge in 2008 at LHR I hope it will be the one in T4 where they will be moving from in Autumn 2008 and not a renovation of their current lounge in the Terminal they are in now, this would really be a waste of money.

A intersting part was the statment about some kind of survey where Israeli executives generally favoured LY's Business Class compared to the foreign competition of LH etc....Well welll....suprising if this is true Big grin

semsem · Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:40 am

I agree. The A320 is a very pleasant aircraft.

LXA340 · Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 48):
I agree. The A320 is a very pleasant aircraft.

The A32S aircraft also fly faster than the B737's. On LY's longer european routes the flying time could be accelerated by 10 -20 minutes. Also the A32S don't have such a cramped cabin.

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