AA's MSP-LGA, CVG-LGA--How It Going?

seatback · Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:41 pm

Anyone know how these two routes are doing?

Tango-Bravo · Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:03 am

IIRC didn't AA start MSP-LGA non-stop at a frequency of two daily MD-80s each way? If so they have now increased the frequency to three daily each way on weekdays. Since it was only about two months ago that their non-stop MSP-LGA service began, the increase of 50% in both frequency and capacity offered in the market would seem to indicate that the route has done well for AA.

AA 777 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:15 am

Going strictly by loads (which we know isnt the end all) the CVG-LGA appears to be full or close to it on a regular basis. However, LGA-MSP goes out empty a lot. I have seen the flights full on certain days, but most of the time they are fairly empty. AFAIK LGA-MSP started at 3x daily on the weekdays.

747fan · Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:45 am

While were at it, does anyone know how well AA Eagle's newish (started on September 5) LGA-SDF is performing? They currently have 2 daily E-135's on this route.

upsmd11 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
While were at it, does anyone know how well AA Eagle's newish (started on September 5) LGA-SDF is performing? They currently have 2 daily E-135's on this route.

Yes, I'd like to know this as well. US has always had the market on this. I can remember flying between SDF and LGA back in the Allegheny days on a BAC 1-11 (if my memory serves me correctly).

I would have to see it dwindle to AA!

Cheers,
John

Super80DFW · Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:36 am

Could a LGA-OKC or LGA-TUL be in the cards? They could steal some non-loyal CO paxs that go to NYC.

flydreamliner · Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 5):
Could a LGA-OKC or LGA-TUL be in the cards? They could steal some non-loyal CO paxs that go to NYC.

Isn't there some limitation for number of miles for flights out of LGA? Is TUL too far?

747fan · Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting UPSMD11 (Reply 4):
Yes, I'd like to know this as well. US has always had the market on this. I can remember flying between SDF and LGA back in the Allegheny days on a BAC 1-11 (if my memory serves me correctly).

Also, AA's SDF-LGA isn't exactly a new route for them. Well, its new for Eagle. But back in the late '70's and early '80's, AA used to fly SDF-LGA with 727's. USAirways, in some shape or form (be it Allegheny, Express, or USAir), has flown SDF-LGA since the early '80's, and did so throughout much of the decade (Allegheny) on BAC 1-11's, as you mentioned. Back in the late '80's and early '90's, this flight went to USAir mainline, who flew the route twice daily with I think Fokker 28's; it may have been a DC-9 flight (or both F28/DC-9), I don't know. I do remember regularly seeing USAir F-28's, DC-9's, and 737's flying into SDF about 12-15 years ago. Back then, I believe every legacy carrier, including TWA, had mainline service into Louisville. Now we have more pax flights than ever, with more destinations than ever, but over half of them are on RJ's; only AA, DL, and NW have mainline service (along with WN and F9). Man, how times have changed!
At least we have all those UPS heavies! biggrin

Cubsrule · Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):

Isn't there some limitation for number of miles for flights out of LGA? Is TUL too far?

Yes, and no. The limit is 1500 miles (DEN is exempt).

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
Yes, and no. The limit is 1500 miles (DEN is exempt).

Wasnt SLC exempt as well, or did DL win those slots?

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):
Wasnt SLC exempt as well, or did DL win those slots?

SLC is not exempt. When did DL operate LGA-SLC?

Here's the text of the restriction:

Quote:
16. LaGuardia Airport is to be utilized for nonstop domestic flights and international flights pre cleared by the Federal Inspection Services only to and from points that are located within 1,500 statute miles of LaGuardia Airport, and to and from Denver,CO. The foregoing limitation does not apply to flight operations conducted on Saturdays or to general aviation operations conducted at the Marine Air Terminal.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
SLC is not exempt. When did DL operate LGA-SLC?

I think it was/is Saturday only service

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 11):

I think it was/is Saturday only service

That makes more sense... when did they try it?

deltairlines · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
That makes more sense... when did they try it?

They were operating it last year at this time. I flew on a DL 737-800 from ONT to SLC last December on a Saturday and that plane was continuing onto LGA. I think it got dumped in the earlier portion of this year...maybe around April? I think it lasted for about a year (I think it started in February 2006). LGA-LAX was another route DL did on Saturday-only.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 13):
They were operating it last year at this time. I flew on a DL 737-800 from ONT to SLC last December on a Saturday and that plane was continuing onto LGA. I think it got dumped in the earlier portion of this year...maybe around April? I think it lasted for about a year (I think it started in February 2006). LGA-LAX was another route DL did on Saturday-only.

When it started I remember DL sending 757s..

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 14):

When it started I remember DL sending 757s..

Yeah, thinking back (now that I have a timeframe), I vaguely remember 75s too.

OA412 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:11 am

There are no perimeter restriction being enforced at LGA on Saturdays which is why DL was able to operate SLC-LGA.

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:18 am

For the most part, AA has traditionally been successful on services from LaGuardia to the other legacy airlines' East Coast hubs.

Remember, American Airlines and American Eagle, by December, will fly from LaGuardia to Continental's Cleveland hub; Delta Airlines' Atlanta and Cincinnati hubs; Northwest's Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis hubs; and US Airways' Charlotte and Pittsburgh hubs

ContinentalEWR · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:26 pm

AA can be blamed for jamming LGA with flights to other airlines' hubs, helping to drive down fares, but adding to the congestion. AA has a huge chunk of the O&D market in NY and intends to build upon it. Unlike DL and CO, it does not have an official hub in the area.

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 18):
AA can be blamed for jamming LGA with flights to other airlines' hubs, helping to drive down fares, but adding to the congestion. AA has a huge chunk of the O&D market in NY and intends to build upon it. Unlike DL and CO, it does not have an official hub in the area.

..given DL's recent expansion at JFK, it too can be blamed for adding congesting...don't know how many new flights CO has added, but I'm sure it has added flights out of EWR....

dutchjet · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 18):
AA can be blamed for jamming LGA with flights to other airlines' hubs, helping to drive down fares, but adding to the congestion. AA has a huge chunk of the O&D market in NY and intends to build upon it. Unlike DL and CO, it does not have an official hub in the area

I really dont understand your point.......AA should be penalized for competing with other carriers on routes out of LGA?

Lets face it, a huge part of the congestion problem is airlines operating very frequent flights on certain routes with regional aircraft........replacing 5 CRJ/ERJ departures per day on certain routes with 2 MD80/737/A32X flights per day in many cases would make a lot of sense and reduce congestion signficantly.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 18):
AA has a huge chunk of the O&D market in NY and intends to build upon it. Unlike DL and CO, it does not have an official hub in the area.

AA doesnt consider LGA/JFK a multi-airport hub? I thought i read somewhere either here or on aa.com to that effect...hmm..oh well.

A330323X · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
For the most part, AA has traditionally been successful on services from LaGuardia to the other legacy airlines' East Coast hubs.

Remember, American Airlines and American Eagle, by December, will fly from LaGuardia to Continental's Cleveland hub; Delta Airlines' Atlanta and Cincinnati hubs; Northwest's Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis hubs; and US Airways' Charlotte and Pittsburgh hubs

Come on now, Mark, you can't seriously be calling PIT a US hub. Wink

Cubsrule · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
Lets face it, a huge part of the congestion problem is airlines operating very frequent flights on certain routes with regional aircraft........replacing 5 CRJ/ERJ departures per day on certain routes with 2 MD80/737/A32X flights per day in many cases would make a lot of sense and reduce congestion signficantly.

And, interestingly, most of the routes we are talking about in this thread do not fall into this category. Most of the MQ routes are more like 2-3 daily flights (really not enough to replace with mainline), while AA DOES fly mainline on the busier routes, like ATL.

elmothehobo · Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
replacing 5 CRJ/ERJ departures per day on certain routes with 2 MD80/737/A32X flights per day in many cases would make a lot of sense and reduce congestion signficantly.

Though it sounds great, it's not what the customer wants. If American were to go from 5 ERJs to 2 M80s per day on LGA-CLT, they would be condemning their route to failure.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Most of the MQ routes are more like 2-3 daily flights (really not enough to replace with mainline), while AA DOES fly mainline on the busier routes, like ATL.

American ought to upgrade Charlotte to all mainline and go from 5 to 4 daily frequencies (like Atlanta). As discussed in an earlier thread, upgrading the ERJ shuttle to/from DCA and BOS to MD-80s wouldn't be out of the question either. If those changes were made, all major cities served from LaGuardia would be served by mainline, secondary cities like Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, and Louisville would be served by RJs.

Cubsrule · Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 24):
American ought to upgrade Charlotte to all mainline and go from 5 to 4 daily frequencies (like Atlanta).

You know, CLT is the one potential exception to what I wrote before, but if you look carefully at the schedule, you'll see a lot of ER3s (4 of the 5 flights right now). That's not a scheduling quirk; there's not a whale of a lot of demand, but AA needs the frequency to compete effectively with US. A switch to mainline would destroy the route.

WesternA318 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
A switch to mainline would destroy the route.

What does US use to ATL?

Cubsrule · Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 26):

What does US use to ATL?

I was discussing CLT-LGA...

elmothehobo · Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
That's not a scheduling quirk; there's not a whale of a lot of demand, but AA needs the frequency to compete effectively with US. A switch to mainline would destroy the route.

I was suggesting maintaining or going down by one frequency. American offers four daily flights to Atlanta, competing with both Delta and AirTran. Why not Charlotte with four daily MD-80s, surely the availability of First Class service and a mainline aircraft will make up for the loss of one frequency.

WesternA318 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 27):
I was discussing CLT-LGA...

My mistake..

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 28):
Why not Charlotte with four daily MD-80s, surely the availability of First Class service and a mainline aircraft will make up for the loss of one frequency.

perhaps a mix of 3 MD-80s and 2 RJs would be more sufficient?

dutchjet · Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
while AA DOES fly mainline on the busier routes, like ATL.

Sometimes, there is the issue of the BOS and DCA service operated out of LGA by AA.......and there are other airlines that do fly multiple flights per day on a route with regional aircraft.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 24):
Though it sounds great, it's not what the customer wants. If American were to go from 5 ERJs to 2 M80s per day on LGA-CLT, they would be condemning their route to failure

I understand, but with certain airports being congested and facing grid-lock levels at peak departure times, choices must be made. Which is better: reducing frequency on certain routes OR effectively being prevented from adding new routes and frequency in the future? If the airlines dont make the hard choices now, they will have those choices made for them via regulation everyone will loose.

Customers also dont want to sit on runways for 2 hours waiting to take off, thus, when looking at the big picture, does 5 regional jet flights per day between an airport like LGA and CLT make sense? In the perfect world, yes, but in the current situation, I dont think so.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
You know, CLT is the one potential exception to what I wrote before, but if you look carefully at the schedule, you'll see a lot of ER3s (4 of the 5 flights right now). That's not a scheduling quirk; there's not a whale of a lot of demand, but AA needs the frequency to compete effectively with US. A switch to mainline would destroy the route.

I agree.......but one must ask the question: does it make sense for AA to be flying a route like LGA-CLT, a limited demand route for AA, 5 times per day? AA is flying this route 5 times per day and offering less than 200 seats per day on the route.....and while such a operation may make a lot of sense on other routes (since frequent and premium pax appreciate frequency, multiple departure times increase connection possibilities, the flights are better timed for hub operations, and all of the other reasons that support the small aircraft/increased frequency arguments)......does offering less than 200 seats per day over 5 flights make sense at an airport like LGA which is facing operational issues?
Its a difficult question.

MAH4546 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):

I agree.......but one must ask the question: does it make sense for AA to be flying a route like LGA-CLT, a limited demand route for AA, 5 times per day? AA is flying this route 5 times per day and offering less than 200 seats per day on the route.....and while such a operation may make a lot of sense on other routes (since frequent and premium pax appreciate frequency, multiple departure times increase connection possibilities, the flights are better timed for hub operations, and all of the other reasons that support the small aircraft/increased frequency arguments)......does offering less than 200 seats per day over 5 flights make sense at an airport like LGA which is facing operational issues?
Its a difficult question.

It makes sense from a financial standpoint. American Eagle does very well on the route. Thanks to five daily LGA flights and six daily MIA flights, they have been able to steal a huge amount of Bank of America traffic out of Charlotte (BofA is largely the reason that MIA/LGA-CLT operate at such a high frequency on American Eagle).

Cubsrule · Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 28):
Why not Charlotte with four daily MD-80s, surely the availability of First Class service and a mainline aircraft will make up for the loss of one frequency.

...but you're talking about loads of well less than 50%... the yields aren't that good (and to fill that many seats, AA would really have to trash the yields).

burnsie28 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 1):
IIRC didn't AA start MSP-LGA non-stop at a frequency of two daily MD-80s each way? If so they have now increased

It started with 3 daily.

Flighty · Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:07 pm

Part of why AA might be strugglng a bit is NW's historic long-term monopoly, and the customer pool's concentration in MSP as opposed to NYC. These are not New Yorkers visiting MSP, for the most part. But some business traffic is, certainly... just not enough to fill 3 MD-80s.

NW using all-757s against AA on MSP-LGA has to severely impact any competitor. AA could increase loads by starting a fare war, but NW would just respond, and it would be bloodier for both parties.

I really think AA could instead use a CRJ-700 on this, but the problem is AA lacks F class for those all-important business pax in this very business heavy route.

All that said, could AA make profits at 50% load factor on MD-80 in this market, yes it could. It's a high fare market. $908 for close-in bookings roundtrips, even at leisure times. So every business pax is paying $908, unless he/she has a corporate account with NW or AA, which most businesses do not.

HPAEAA · Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
American Eagle, by December, will fly from LaGuardia to Continental's Cleveland hub

Mark, I can only assume your on the inside, yet again MQ is yet again dropping frequency on this route... down to 3 this spring I believe... is this ever going to change, or should I start flying CO on the route?

WA707atMSP · Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Remember, American Airlines and American Eagle, by December, will fly from LaGuardia to Continental's Cleveland hub; Delta Airlines' Atlanta and Cincinnati hubs; Northwest's Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis hubs; and US Airways' Charlotte and Pittsburgh hubs

Many of these routes were served by AA before the other airlines' hubs were established, so AA is in a sense returning to its roots by resuming service on them.

Before deregulation, AA flew from LGA to CLE, CVG, DTW, MEM, and PIT. AA was by far the dominant airline on DTW-LGA, with hourly service between the two cities, and AA was also #1 to CVG and MEM. AA was not as strong to CLE, where UA had a hub that was as almost as large before deregulation as their DEN hub, or to PIT, where AA competed against AL / US's hub, and TWA and UA's mini-hubs.

The only routes not served by AA were CLT (which was traditionally dominated by EA, until PI added the route after deregulation), ATL (served by EA, UA, and DL before deregulation, although DL did not fly into LGA until 1969), and MSP, which has always been dominated by NW.

AA also served LGA-SDF before deregulation, in competition with EA and (I think) TWA.

AA's MSP-LGA, CVG-LGA--How It Going?

AA's MSP-LGA, CVG-LGA--How It Going?

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