Phoenix9
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Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:21 am

Hello all!

I might get flamed for this but what if boeing and airbus to merge?  stirthepot 


Instead of the money spent on out-competing each other, the merged company comes out as a true passenger plane innovator that can bring all the resources that can :

1) Develop better airplanes
2) Allow faster implimentation of new technology
3) Bring more comfort and better experience for passengers

I'm sure there are plenty of other advantages but it will probably have several disadvantges as well (the only one that comes to mind is subcontractors relying on each company and maybe cutting the workforce).

Your opinions are welcome as usual.
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:23 am

Well there would be the small issue of a monopoly on the market of aircraft in the >100 seat market.

Although I do wonder if an RJ manufacturer like Bombardier might step up and start building bigger planes in that case.
-Doc Lightning-

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Stitch
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:27 am

Just look at Daimler-Chrysler to see how well it would work. Big grin

Not to mention the airlines would hate it...
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:28 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Well there would be the small issue of a monopoly on the market of aircraft in the >100 seat market

Well that monopoly is there even now! Seperate they might be competing with each other but combined they already have that monopoly in that segment. I am not sure if that is going to make that big of a difference overall as far as the company monopolies go.
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:34 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Just look at Daimler-Chrysler to see how well it would work.

Not to mention the airlines would hate it...

Diamler-Chrysler would have worked just fine if there was not much competition from other automakers. However, if Boeing and Airbus merge...they'd have the monopoly as DocLightning mentioned above.

Well I guess airlines will hate it cuz they won't be able to able to get 'competitive discounts'. But I am sure the merged companies will find a way to make them happy.
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
haggis79
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:36 am

actually, with having no competitor such a company would most likely build worse airplanes for more money.... not a very desirable idea, imho....

apart from that: I think Stitch gives a good keyword here - European and US company and work culture might just be too different for such a merger to successfully work out....
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Beaucaire
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:39 am

there is no way Europe would allow a merger of Boeing and EADS -it would create a monopolistic entity -end of speculation.
What EADS can do nevertheless is to set up manufacturing in the USA in order to delute the $/Euro exchangerate issue.
A future A350 and/or tanker line in Alabama would most defenitely make sens for EADS.
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2175301
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:57 am

The two companies currently operate in an Oligopoly form; which is closer to a monopoly than a free market.

However, as to your question; merger?

It would never happen. The companies are actually formed for two very different reasons and there are reasons why some european state governments are essentially (if not actual) co-owners of Airbus; and Boeing is owned by stockholders without government input to its board of directors.
 
evolv
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:00 am

competition is a necessity. No competition will mean a hault in the innovation of airplanes. You need a competitive atmosphere for the bright minds that work at Boeing and Airbus to attempt the next innovaton.
 
GBan
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:20 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Just look at Daimler-Chrysler to see how well it would work.

Not to mention the airlines would hate it...

 checkmark 

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 4):
Diamler-Chrysler would have worked just fine if there was not much competition from other automakers.

Actually it might have worked even worse in that case, at least when taking the goals you want to achieve serious:

1) Develop better products
2) Allow faster implementation of new technology
3) Bring more comfort and better experience for customers

Anyway such a merger would be life threatening for a couple of a.net members.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:36 am



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 5):
actually, with having no competitor such a company would most likely build worse airplanes for more money.... not a very desirable idea, imho....

 checkmark 

A merger would never happen, due to this being the airline industry.

The EU would demand 51% EU ownership; whilst the US would demand 75% US ownership, and that the CEO & Chairman of the board both be US citizens.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:22 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Well there would be the small issue of a monopoly on the market of aircraft in the >100 seat market.

Although I do wonder if an RJ manufacturer like Bombardier might step up and start building bigger planes in that case.

You forgot about, Iljysin and Tupolev? Also remember that Embraer is definitly growing.
I think eventually this will happened, but not anytime soon.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
killjoy
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:19 am

I know others mentioned competition, but think of it this way: if it had happened 10 years ago, we'd currently be looking forward to flying on the 747-8 and the A330NG. No 787, no A380 - too risky.
 
bill142
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:27 am

In the absence of a decent competitor, it would get shot down by regulators of both sides of the Atlantic.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:23 pm

Probably one of the most bizzare posts I have seen in a while! If there were no competition in the market, then there would be no impetous to build new planes. Had Airbus not existed, and MDD continued to go down the road they did we would not have seen the A330 (or at best a warmed over, twin DC-10 from MDD). Had the A330 not existed then the 764 would in turn have been the best game in town. Its wasn't the 330 was. Had Boeng not been pushed by dismal 764 sales the 787 would never have arrived, and had the 787 not been developed, the A350 woudl certainly NEVER have happened.

See how it works? As others have alluded to, unless there is a fire under their backside the manufacturers will continue to pump out 737 classics and 767/A330.

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 3):
Seperate they might be competing with each other but combined they already have that monopoly in that segment.

OK, if I take the two biggest players out of any market and class them as a single entity we can say any market is a virtual monoply. The current market is VIRTUAL duoploy. Mot a monoply, and 2 major manufacturers is about right, as time has shown.

The only good thing that would happen if A and B were to merge - an end to the endless Boeing V Airbus threads and posts. - lets do it!

Brian.
 
NAV20
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:30 pm

The current situation is a classical duopoly - two firms sharing the market.

In a duopoly, both firms tend to end up with equal products, sharing the market 50/50, at minimal prices. But if one firm achieves a sustained advantage, whether in terms of a cheaper product of equal quality, or a better product at the same price, the normal outcome is that one firm fails and the better-performing one succeeds to a virtual monopoly.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:33 pm

In a parallel reality that could start a merger-mania with spin offs like Bombarbraer, Tupobeech....
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:38 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 5):
actually, with having no competitor such a company would most likely build worse airplanes for more money.... not a very desirable idea, imho....



Quoting Evolv (Reply 8):
competition is a necessity. No competition will mean a hault in the innovation of airplanes. You need a competitive atmosphere for the bright minds that work at Boeing and Airbus to attempt the next innovaton.

If the last 100 years of economic history have proved anything it is that the only thing that spurs innovation is competition. It is also the only thing that causes increases in efficiency. The idea of merging Boeing and Airbus is one of the worst ideas since Stalin's first five year plan. Absolutely nobody would gain from it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
InbarD
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:48 pm

I guess they would make good aircraft but it wouldn't happen anytime soon. There would be no conflict or competition between airlines therefore no body would have to improve their aircraft in order to win orders, unless a new company or existing company starts creating large aircraft which could give the AB merger some competition.

[Edited 2007-11-23 05:48:54]
 
Lumberton
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:51 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
there is no way Europe would allow a merger of Boeing and EADS -it would create a monopolistic entity -end of speculation



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10):
A merger would never happen, due to this being the airline industry.

It doesn't have to be a merger.

How about a joint venture on the next generation narrow body?

I've long advocated that Boeing and Lock-Mart partner on the follow on to the 737, but I haven't received my phone call from Mr. McNerney yet, so I can only conclude he has rejected my idea.  Sad
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
mptpa
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:27 pm

One question: WHY?

Answer: It would be anti-competitive and it serves no one.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:07 pm



Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
One question: WHY?

Answer: It would be anti-competitive and it serves no one

Because developement costs in the future could skyrocket, when A380, B777 and B787 are obselete then it takes a lot to
improve. Remember that McDonnell-Douglas and Airbus co-operated with the A300.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:08 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 19):

How about a joint venture on the next generation narrow body?

They did contemplate a joint venture on a VLA because the necessary investment was so huge and the market limited, factors that do not apply to narrow body aircraft. A collaboration would be the best way to guarantee that Embraer or Bombardier offer a competitor; which I do not believe that either Airbus or Boeing want.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Lumberton
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:08 pm



Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
Answer: It would be anti-competitive and it serves no one.

As to anti-competitive, well...maybe it would be, but that would not preclude the Brazilians & Canadians from doing their own JV, or the Russians, Chinese, Japanese as well.

It would create an aerospace colossus for sure. Might also bring the WTO case to settlement as well as help EADS with those nasty currency problems it's having.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:09 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
I might get flamed for this but what if boeing and airbus to merge?

While consortiums do form, and in essence that is what this would be, I doubt there will ever be a Boeing/Airbus merger. There's a lot of national pride on both sides and you can be sure France would want to be in charge overall. Not sure there would be anything to be gained from such a merger.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
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tavong
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:01 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
1) Develop better airplanes
2) Allow faster implimentation of new technology
3) Bring more comfort and better experience for passengers

If there is a monopoly surely the emerging comany will

1-Produce bad airplanes, if you don´t have any competition why you have to enhance your products?
2- New technologies? Doubtfull, the monopoly will try to struggle as much has possible from old technologies and will try to stop new technologies to be implemented fast if revenue is not that great.
3-Doubtfull, you can imagine that from the 1 and 2 answers.

Gus
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GrahamHill
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:41 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
1) Develop better airplanes
2) Allow faster implimentation of new technology
3) Bring more comfort and better experience for passengers

I don't see it that way. If there was only one manufacturer, there would be no such thing as better planes IMO. The good thing of competition is that one is trying to do better than the other and vice versa, therefore the customer gets a better product. It also keeps prices at a reasonable level compare to what they would be in a situation of monopoly.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:03 pm



Quoting Killjoy (Reply 12):
I know others mentioned competition, but think of it this way: if it had happened 10 years ago, we'd currently be looking forward to flying on the 747-8 and the A330NG.

If it happened 10 years ago, there would be no 747-8, no A330NG, and no new airplanes on the drawing board. Why would you develop a new product when you can sell you old, already paid-for, product for whatever price you want because there's no competition?

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
Because developement costs in the future could skyrocket,

Why? Development costs have been on a fairly dependable trend for about 30 years. Why do we expect them to suddenly change?

Tom.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 5):
actually, with having no competitor such a company would most likely build worse airplanes for more money

 checkmark 

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 5):
European and US company and work culture might just be too different for such a merger to successfully work out....

The A380 schedules went off the schedule partly due to the different systems and styles of working in different European countries.....if they had that problem within Airbus itself, what would you think would happen in a B & A merger situation....? A nightmare!!
 
Jetsa
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting Evolv (Reply 8):
competition is a necessity. No competition will mean a hault in the innovation of airplanes. You need a competitive atmosphere for the bright minds that work at Boeing and Airbus to attempt the next innovaton.

 thumbsup 
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting 2175301 (Reply 7):
The two companies currently operate in an Oligopoly form; which is closer to a monopoly than a free market.

That is absolutly correct. I've said before that it is a matter of time before Embraer, Su or Tu haul both B and A into trade court. It will happen unless these small companies are allowed to grow without being strangled by the B/A Oligopoly.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:00 pm



Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 30):
I've said before that it is a matter of time before Embraer, Su or Tu haul both B and A into trade court.

As long as they cannot prove collusion by A & B to exclude any other newcomers they would have no case. And in fact Embraer and Bombardier are making inroads into territory that was once exclusive A & B (& MD before the merger) territory; A & B are doing nothing (at least as far as I can see) illegal to stop that. What they will do is build new generation single aisle planes, which will be more efficient. This is not only legal, it is to everyone's (except maybe Embraer's and Bombardier's) benefit. A duopoly is not in any way a monopoly, and in this case what is keeping out others is the astronomical cost of entry, not any illegal collusion. There is also the factor that airlines will be very reluctant to buy airliners from a new entrant, as they know that when they buy from Airbus or Boeing they will be getting a safe plane. A newcomer (even Su or Tu) would have to establish that; Embraer and Bombardier are well on their way to establish their reputations.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
474218
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:05 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
Remember that McDonnell-Douglas and Airbus co-operated with the A300.

Do you have some details on this McDonnell-Douglas/Airbus co-operation?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:57 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
what if boeing and airbus to merge?

Antitrust authorities on both sides of the Atlantic wouldn't allow it. Any mention of a Boeing-Airbus merger is nothing but a pipe dream.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
nema
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:05 pm

Boeing Airbus amalgamation...could it happen?


Boeing & Airbus Amalgamate ..Could It Happen? (by NEMA Aug 2 2007 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=3540454&searchid=3540700&s=amalgamate#ID3540700
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
JuniorSpotter
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:23 pm

I think we're more likely to find Jimmy Hoffa AND having a successfull Britney Spears comeback, than seeing an A-B merger...  Wink
If something can go wrong, it will.
 
frontierflyer
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:14 am

If the dollar continues to slide, Airbus may be forced to look for a partner of some kind, doesn't have to be Boeing. I don't even think Boeing would want to get into bed with Airbus, just wait out till Airbus goes belly up. We have to see how far those European countries are willing to pump more money.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:18 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
I might get flamed for this but what if boeing and airbus to merge?

Nope, not at all. It might quell any similiar ideas other dreamers have about it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Although I do wonder if an RJ manufacturer like Bombardier might step up and start building bigger planes in that case.

I wouldn't be against that. I like their line of Embraer 145 and 170 a/c, so why not?

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 5):
actually, with having no competitor such a company would most likely build worse airplanes for more money.... not a very desirable idea, imho....



Quoting Evolv (Reply 8):
You need a competitive atmosphere for the bright minds that work at Boeing and Airbus to attempt the next innovaton.

Like these two have said amongst others - both need the other to be there as a competitor to push each other to make better a/c.
Living the American Dream
 
continental180
Posts: 35
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:24 am

THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN

SO LETS JUST STOP HERE!!!

this is a stupid topic, becuase it would NEVER happen...

i cant believe someone would even post this....its like embarresing..

[Edited 2007-11-23 18:25:58]
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2617
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RE: Boeing-Airbus Merger...possiblities?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:37 pm



Quoting Continental180 (Reply 38):
THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN

SO LETS JUST STOP HERE!!!

this is a stupid topic, becuase it would NEVER happen...

i cant believe someone would even post this....its like embarresing..

....and moreover, it gets 37 replies.....I say we start a BA merges with VS thread.... stirthepot 

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