Virgin America's Next Destinations

Super80DFW · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:11 pm

It has already been announced of new flights to SAN, but where do you think the next new cities will be?

DFW
MCO
MIA
BOS

BAKJet · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:16 pm

I would say that MIA has the best chance. MCO and DFW are also likely, but MIA has been rumored. BOS probably will happen later but I doubt it will be one of the next cities.

Super80DFW · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:22 pm

DFW- There is plenty of open gates at Terminal E isn't there.

MAH4546 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:23 pm

They are, with 90% certainty, Miami, Seattle, and Chicago. Of course, this is all subject to change, but they've already, from what I have been told, started hiring in Miami and Seattle. Virgin America is slow on receiving new planes, for example, which might delay a new East Coast city.

Boston and Orlando are not priority right now, but both will be served eventually (BOS by the end of 2008, I would assume; MCO by the end of 2009). Boston-California is overcrowded and yields in that market have been trashed in the past three years. Orlando-California is low-yielding and doesn't go for the premium passengers that Virgin America is looking for.

As for going to Texas, I'd put my money on Houston well before Dallas. CO isn't as aggressive as AA in "attacking" other airlines.

Of course, that's the rumour mill, so take it for what it's worth.

[Edited 2007-11-23 15:25:59]

A388 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:37 pm

How about Caribbean destinations for VS America or another VS branch based in the Caribbean? In below link VS made public they want to build up connections from Jamaica:

http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb...e/pressreleases/news/pr151107a.jsp

A388

MAH4546 · Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
How about Caribbean destinations for VS America or another VS branch based in the Caribbean?

There have been rumours that VX might look at establishing a Caribbean base from MIA.

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
In below link VS made public they want to build up connections from Jamaica:

Nothing more than exaggeration for some free publicity.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
As for going to Texas, I'd put my money on Houston well before Dallas. CO isn't as aggressive as AA in "attacking" other airlines.

LOL CO puts up a tremendous fight in EWR against B6. BTW, has B6 pulled out of EWR yet?

As for Virgin Americas next routes, Im hoping they'll try and slaughter B6 on the SFO-SLC route, and maybe perhaps SAN-SLC?

LAXdude1023 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
As for going to Texas, I'd put my money on Houston well before Dallas. CO isn't as aggressive as AA in "attacking" other airlines.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
There have been rumours that VX might look at establishing a Caribbean base from MIA.

If AA is very agressive at attacking other airlines at their hubs, why would VX try to establish a Caribbean base at MIA (directly competeing with AA) but avoid going to DFW for fear of AA?

I would imagine that DFW and MIA are higher up the list for VX.

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
LOL CO puts up a tremendous fight in EWR against B6. BTW, has B6 pulled out of EWR yet?

It's nothing how AA would retaliate, and jetBlue is still there.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 7):

If AA is very agressive at attacking other airlines at their hubs, why would VX try to establish a Caribbean base at MIA (directly competeing with AA) but avoid going to DFW for fear of AA?

AA's aggressiveness at DFW is far stronger than at MIA, ORD, or other hubs. They have a lot more to defend at DFW than at MIA or ORD. For example, what have they done to counter AirTran's recent additions of some MIA routes? Nothing.

If Virgin America comes into MIA/JFK-Caribbean with low fares, than AA would be much more aggressive in competing (i.e. what they are doing with Spirit). Though I doubt, if VX goes into the Caribbean, low fares are in the cards.

Any Caribbean expansion for VX is a few years off, though. First they need to establish themselves at MIA, JFK, or wherever else they might expand into the market. They aren't going to launch MIA-Caribbean without being established there first.

You have to look at what Virgin America would do first, and that's launch domestic service. AA's reaction at DFW would, in all likelihood, be significantly stronger than at MIA (or ORD). AA already well serve Miami-California (MIA-SFO could do with another flight, though), and it's not like they have dozens of planes ready to add even more Miami-California flights. After that, then VX might contemplate Caribbean service, and having already being established in the market, AA's attempts to thwart them would likely not be successful.

At Dallas, AA would launch a domestic onslaught immediately. It's a lot easier to find planes to add Dallas-California frequencies than Miami-California. In addition, Dallas is a much more loyal AA market than Miami. VX will have much less difficultly finding frequent fliers in South Florida.

FrontierATL · Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:51 am

Any chance VX would come to ATL?

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
It's nothing how AA would retaliate, and jetBlue is still there.

But I dont think AA has the power, nor the resources to boost JFK up to such a stance where they could effectively take on B6.

thomasphoto60 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
As for going to Texas, I'd put my money on Houston well before Dallas. CO isn't as aggressive as AA in "attacking" other airlines.

Actually if I were a betting man, I would say that AUS and or SAT would probably be the first markets in Texas that VX would service. Austin in particular seems to fit Virgin's overall 'hip' niche as well as being on of the few cities in Texas that has any real 'leisure' appeal to those from outside of the state, which would seem to be what VX is targeting at the moment.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Of course, that's the rumour mill, so take it for what it's worth.

Agreed

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
They are, with 90% certainty, Miami, Seattle, and Chicago.

Any word on which Chicago airport?

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 10):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
It's nothing how AA would retaliate, and jetBlue is still there.

But I dont think AA has the power, nor the resources to boost JFK up to such a stance where they could effectively take on B6.

They effectively do compete with jetBlue at JFK. They don't need to "take jetBlue on". They co-exist at JFK just fine.

And they certainly have the power to hurt jetBlue. Though as you say, they don't have the resources with their lack of aircraft, a problem that isn't being solved anytime soon.

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 11):

Actually if I were a betting man, I would say that AUS and or SAT would probably be the first markets in Texas that VX would service. Austin in particular seems to fit Virgin's overall 'hip' niche as well as being on of the few cities in Texas that has any real 'leisure' appeal to those from outside of the state, which would seem to be what VX is targeting at the moment.

I disagree. Virgin America is going for large markets with large populations and a lot of business traffic. They aren't trying to seek out niches.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
They are, with 90% certainty, Miami, Seattle, and Chicago.

Any word on which Chicago airport?

O'Hare.

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
O'Hare.

@ Terminal 5?

allstarflyer · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:33 am

Are there still some open gates at DFW? Wasn't there an discounted offer for use of open gates a couple of years ago (but the airline would have to lease that whole block of open gates)? Maybe I'm dreaming that up.

ATWZW170 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:39 am

I'd really like to see VA go after markets that will generate traffic but avoid hubs like ORD, DFW, and ATL right now...I'd like to see RDU, BOS, DCA, MKE, MCI, AUS, MSP -- markets where they can really make a difference.

With airlines like Virgin America do you ever see an express operation forming for them?

luv2fly · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
I disagree. Virgin America is going for large markets with large populations and a lot of business traffic. They aren't trying to seek out niches.

Well I think that right there would be a "NICHE"

Tornado82 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):

O'Hare.

So where did those slots come from, considering B6 getting them caused hell to break loose?

allstarflyer · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 17):
markets where they can really make a difference.

I agree w/your BOS assessment. I think the B gates at IAD could serve them very well, too.

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 19):
So where did those slots come from, considering B6 getting them caused hell to break loose?

It did? Most of the comments about B6 related to the manner in which it hoped to get the slots because of the expiration of the temporary order. Obviously, now that the rulemaking process is over, that point is moot.

New entrants get some leeway; anything below 10 daily flights probably would barely cause the FAA to bat an eye. Remember that the FAA is entitled to raise the number of permitted arrivals at its discretion and can basically hand those arrivals directly to VX (unless U5 or NK want to do some expansion...). See 14 CFR 93.30.

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 19):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):

O'Hare.

So where did those slots come from, considering B6 getting them caused hell to break loose?

....O'Hare always has slots for new entrants.....

LimaNiner · Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
How about Caribbean destinations for VS America or another VS branch based in the Caribbean? In below link VS made public they want to build up connections from Jamaica:

If VX flew SFO-MIA-MBJ, I'd be a loyal customer for life! I split my flying between SFO-LHR on VS (business) and SFO-MBJ on AA (pleasure). It'd be nice to consolidate on VS/VX. Price isn't even the issue, as long as they're competitive with AA (i.e., not significantly higher).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
MIA-SFO could do with another flight, though

Ain't that the truth! I'm going through the exercise of booking SFO-xxx-MBJ right now, and it's no fun.

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
....O'Hare always has slots for new entrants.....

Well, not quite. New entrants and limited incumbents have the same rights to arrival authorizations that are under FAA control (either having come from some carrier, never having been assigned, or having been created by the FAA). So if U5 or NK wanted another arrival, they could fight VX for it.

deltal1011man · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting FrontierATL (Reply 9):
Any chance VX would come to ATL?

well i think it would be about like AA and DFW but i think DL can find a few 757s or 767s to add to ATL-SFO plus alot(and i mean ALOT) of proDelta people in ATL(which i am one of)

LAXdude1023 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 25):
proDelta people in ATL(which i am one of)

Really?

I agree with your assesment. VX would have a problem getting a foothold at ATL. I dont DFW would be quite as bad, but I can see how it might be.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
AA's aggressiveness at DFW is far stronger than at MIA, ORD, or other hubs. They have a lot more to defend at DFW than at MIA or ORD. For example, what have they done to counter AirTran's recent additions of some MIA routes? Nothing.

Point taken. You are absolutely right. AA doesnt give anybody a chance to do anything significant at DFW. Everytime someone tries they flood with capacity and undercut fares.

I would argue that AA defends DFW more than any other Airline defends their biggest home hub. Some airlines dont defend their turf enough (CO at IAH).

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 17):
I'd really like to see VA go after markets that will generate traffic but avoid hubs like ORD, DFW, and ATL right now...I'd like to see RDU, BOS, DCA, MKE, MCI, AUS, MSP -- markets where they can really make a difference.

I would rather see this too, but I agree with the assesment that they will go for the larger market with more business traffic.

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 26):
I would argue that AA defends DFW more than any other Airline defends their biggest home hub. Some airlines dont defend their turf enough (CO at IAH).

I'd put AA second. The strongest "hub defense," IMO, is Northwest and MSP, bar none:

1) Reno Air starts MSP, Northwest opens RNO focus city.
2) Frontier starts MSP-LAX, Northwest opens DEN-LAX.
3) American starts LGA-MSP, Northwest announces DFW-LGA (although it didn't launch).

[Edited 2007-11-23 21:26:27]

Philly65 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):

I think a more relevant question to ask is this outfit (Virgin America) making any money(?). I think they are a day late and a dollar short. Oh, wait the aging hippee (Fred Reid) and their "chicky" red interiors and Victoria Secret pj parties are going to send them right off into the stratosphere and take over the airline industry. Yeah, right. With jet A roughly $2.70/gallon and this airline beginning to retrench on transcons leave me to wonder if VA will be on of the first casualties of the new millenia...? Time will tell...

Lono · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:41 am

I see them going to SEA next... then PDX..... I think they will begin working on the Niche AS has controled these many years.... and take advantage of the AS service level decline....

AA767LOVER · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:24 am

Really, before they add, how are they doing with their current loads? Their yields? Best thing is to start small to begin, and then move up. Why go that aggressive to start? Let it go through their growing pains phase first and see how they do. I think MIA is already so crowded! Carribbean from JFK would be great! Their current gates at T4 are good since they can already get access to customs facilities etc.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 30):
Really, before they add, how are they doing with their current loads? Their yields? Best thing is to start small to begin, and then move up. Why go that aggressive to start? Let it go through their growing pains phase first and see how they do. I think MIA is already so crowded! Carribbean from JFK would be great! Their current gates at T4 are good since they can already get access to customs facilities etc.

While that may be a good idea, AA definately has the JFK-Carribbean market tied up, along with all the other airlines from the region. How about West Coast-Caribbean?

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 30):
I think MIA is already so crowded!

Really? How is it so crowded when AA is the only airline on MIA-SFO and MIA-LAX, operates well over 75% of the frequencies on MIA-NYC, and has plenty of gate space for VX.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 30):
Best thing is to start small to begin, and then move up. Why go that aggressive to start?

Where is VX being agressive? By the end of 2008 they might very likely still be in single digit number of destinations. Their growth has been extremely slow and extremely steady.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 30):
arribbean from JFK would be great!

Why? Using your "crowded argument", that market is very crowded. It is served by AA, DL, and B6, not to mention CO at EWR.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
Why? Using your "crowded argument", that market is very crowded. It is served by AA, DL, and B6, not to mention CO at EWR.

Cant forget USA 3000 either

Petrovsky19 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 1):
I would say that MIA has the best chance.

I pray for that to happend soon! Smile

SANFan · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting Lono (Reply 29):
I see them going to SEA next... then PDX..... I think they will begin working on the Niche AS has controled these many years.... and take advantage of the AS service level decline....

SEA, yes; PDX, not for a while. There are way too many major cities to add first... (And I agree with the AS comment; I would love to see Virgin flying between SEA and Lindbergh Field!)

With what's going on at JFK these days (re: congestion, possible limits on flights, etc.) I wonder how VX's expansion plans there might be affected. I also wonder about their gate access at Kennedy; I believe they are using VS facilities, right? Looking at their most current 3-09-08 schedule, they have no more than 2 flights at a time in JFK (meaning they probably have access to only 2 gates there.)

They do have only 8 flights scheduled so there is room for expansion (assuming those 2 gates are available to them full-time) but peak times are already pretty full. (For example, if they were to add a SAN-JFK flight, the peak/best time to schedule it would have to be very carefully timed to fit amongst the LA and SF flights already arriving in the mid-to-late afternoon.) I do realise that MIA-JFK flights, for example, could probably be fit in fairly easily around the west coast flights.

bb

Siege2L · Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:41 am

I would like to see Washington/National Airport... I do not like the time it takes to get from IAD to the nearest Metro Rail Station.

Rockinflyer · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:34 am

Glad to hear SAN is getting more options! I could see MIA as a very good possibility for Virgin America as well.

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
....O'Hare always has slots for new entrants.....

Well, not quite. New entrants and limited incumbents have the same rights to arrival authorizations that are under FAA control (either having come from some carrier, never having been assigned, or having been created by the FAA). So if U5 or NK wanted another arrival, they could fight VX for it.

..I guess you are theoretically correct, however for practical purposes, when a new entrant wants to start flying to ORD, there is little in the way of competition from them getting it. Witness the last time a new entrant had a difficult time getting slots...I can't recall of any...

I know that EK has already worked with the ORD Commission to get slot(s) and gate(s) at ORD....in fact, had it not been for the A380 delays, there was the real possibility of seeing EK at ORD by 2008, certainly by 2009.

STT757 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:56 pm

With the FAA's implementation of hourly flight restrictions looming over JFK , I foresee Virgin America opening up flights from EWR to compliment their flights from JFK.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 39):
With the FAA's implementation of hourly flight restrictions looming over JFK , I foresee Virgin America opening up flights from EWR to compliment their flights from JFK.

Or they could do what New York Air did back in the day, and move to IAD or BWI

sjc4me · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:22 pm

Why not SFO-FLL? Does B6 do well on their OAK-FLL flights?

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting SJC4Me (Reply 41):
Why not SFO-FLL?

Because they will likely be launching SFO-MIA.

Quoting SJC4Me (Reply 41):
Does B6 do well on their OAK-FLL flights?

Nope. Ends in January.

sjc4me · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Because they will likely be launching SFO-MIA.

I meant as an alternative to MIA. Too bad about B6.

dutchjet · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 39):
With the FAA's implementation of hourly flight restrictions looming over JFK , I foresee Virgin America opening up flights from EWR to compliment their flights from JFK.

I dont see it happening at this time; firstly, I dont think that Virgin wants to divide its NYC operation among two airports, and, secondly, I really dont think that Virgin wants to get into a battle with CO at its EWR hub. CO has been a rather strong competitor with new entrants at EWR, examples, ATA's transcons out of EWR that did not last very long and JetBlue has only found limited success at EWR......many suggested that JetBlue had far great plans for EWR.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Because they will likely be launching SFO-MIA.

Most probably their next route, with LAX-MIA to follow.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Quoting SJC4Me (Reply 41):
Does B6 do well on their OAK-FLL flights?

Nope. Ends in January.

Shame, but did anyone really think that this route would be a money maker?

MAH4546 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 44):
Most probably their next route, with LAX-MIA to follow.

The rumor at MIA is VX will launch with three destinations: 3x JFK, 2x SFO, 1x LAX.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 44):
Shame, but did anyone really think that this route would be a money maker?

I did, given their popularity on FLL-LGB, the fact that FLL-OAK is a bigger O&D market than FLL-LGB, and that they had the only non-stop service between FLL and the Bay Area. Fuel prices most likely killed this.

dutchjet · Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45):
The rumor at MIA is VX will launch with three destinations: 3x JFK, 2x SFO, 1x LAX.

Interesting....I really did not think that VX would fly JFK-MIA. Thanks for the info.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45):
I did, given their popularity on FLL-LGB, the fact that FLL-OAK is a bigger O&D market than FLL-LGB, and that they had the only non-stop service between FLL and the Bay Area. Fuel prices most likely killed this

From what I hear, FLL-LGB is popular with the ""lets avoid LAX crowd"" and that has led to this flight's success.

PlanesNTrains · Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45):
The rumor at MIA is VX will launch with three destinations: 3x JFK, 2x SFO, 1x LAX.

Interesting. Any rumors on possible SEA routes/frequencies, or is it too early still?

-Dave

MAH4546 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 47):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45):
The rumor at MIA is VX will launch with three destinations: 3x JFK, 2x SFO, 1x LAX.

Interesting. Any rumors on possible SEA routes/frequencies, or is it too early still?

I haven't heard frequencies, but I have heard they don't plan anything other than SEA-SFO.

Also, plan is to launch MIA/SEA by June 2008, but if plane deliveries don't speed up, MIA might be pushed back or might launch initially from just JFK.

Cubsrule · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
I know that EK has already worked with the ORD Commission to get slot(s) and gate(s) at ORD....in fact, had it not been for the A380 delays, there was the real possibility of seeing EK at ORD by 2008, certainly by 2009.

EK doesn't need arrival authorizations... they're a foreign flag carrier. FWIW, VX could do all the international flying it wanted at ORD, as international flights (excluding transborder) by ANY carrier are exempt from all of the rules.

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