Beaucaire
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Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:34 pm

As an outsider one has to win the impression BA have decided to re-trench in Heathrow and remain Heathrow Airlines.
Their quest for Iberia seem to have run into Caja Madrid ,their focus seem to dis-engage rather than engage into new partnerships( One World remains the smallest of the three alliances )
The ever valid argument that sheet size does not provide profitability is of course right,but neither is the opposite (look at Air France/KLM and their record earnings announced last week )
So my question to experts in BA politics is : why are they so focussed on Heathrow and seem to be proud to appear as a UK only airline rather than a global player ?
Their dis-engagement in Manchester ,sale of GB airlines,passive stance in acquisitions,focus on UK-US business,seem odd for an airline that once had a much more global vision.
I might be wrong with my assessment,but for an outsider that's how BA appear ...
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Sketty222
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:44 pm

Just look at the balance sheet. They must be doing something right, with hundreds of millions of British Pounds being invested into building T5 and buying new aircraft
LHR is the biggest hub in the UK and such an important airport in Europe because of where its situated, London.
This is the reason BA want to "re-trench" at LHR because they have a good position there and once Open Skies comes into action in March its going to open LHR to more competition


Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:52 pm

My reason for putting up the question is not geared to question the financial performane of BA- but ther's a danger to put all your eggs in once basket...
LH have several hub's and might even get one in Italy in a not to far future,AF/KLM have two hubs ,low-cost spinn-offs' ,cargo airlines and have expresed their intention to buy other airlines.You see my point ?

[Edited 2007-11-24 04:56:59]
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AnsettB727
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:55 pm

I have to say that I don't understand this argument. BA is a mega-airline serving a huge hub at what is Europe's most desirable destination. I'd be investing in LHR, too.
 
JRadier
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:56 pm



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 1):
This is the reason BA want to "re-trench" at LHR because they have a good position there and once Open Skies comes into action in March its going to open LHR to more competition

Because of this, it might even be a good idea to venture out. Putting your business where the risk is highest (which LHR is going to be, I recon it might be an economical massacre in the first year(s)) is risky. Diversity is a good tool to reduce this risk.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:59 pm

Could you immagine the impact of a major desaster in LHR be it terror or other ?
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Sketty222
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:59 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
My reason for putting up the question is not geared to question the financial performane of BA- but ther's a danger to put all your eggs in once basket...

All of their eggs arent in one basket though. LGW is another hub that BA operate out of although it is predominantly leisure flights that are operated. LGW is getting some good investment and will be housing BA aircraft for a long time to come.

If you dont mind my asking, what is your geared towards?
There's flying and then there's flying
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:22 pm

It might be a good idea to venture out, but as long as you are making money with your current strategy it's difficult to sell changes.

BA has a different business approach than that of AF/KL or LH, they focus on routes where they can fill the front cabins consistently, they'd rather send 3xdaily 744's to LAX with full F/J on all three than send just one and the other 2 to places such as SGN, JKT, UIO, PTY or ICN and then be called "global player".

Regarding the "hub" issue, it's well known that having a single hub reduces costs significantly, that's why IB has established MAD as their one & only hub, AZ is doing the same at FCO (although I think MXP would've been better), AF have never had a hub outside Paris. LH is currently the only exception with multiple hubs.

Regarding OW, not growing at the crazy pace like STAR and SKY have done doesn't mean it's not growing, it's the only alliance with members from either LatAm (LA), Mainland China (MU), Middle East (RJ) and Australia (QF). Don't need to have 3 or 4 memebers in US or 6/7 in Europe, OW carriers complement each other so well you get almost the same coverage as you do with STAR/SKY. Besides BA/AA on the north atlantic and BA/CX LHR-HKG and BA/JL LHR-NRT there are few other routes where OW carriers are competing against each other.
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mainMAN
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:16 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Their dis-engagement in Manchester

BA's financial management is geared towards London (nothing wrong with that from a private company), which is a place you can't under-estimate in terms of the kinds of yields available. It really is a fantastically wealthy region of Europe, whereas the rest of the UK limps along somewhere slightly below the European average. Problem currently being addressed.
 
vv701
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:58 pm

BA is a commercial company. Last year it was second only to FedEx (which is clearly not a passenger airline) amongst all airlines when measured in terms of profitability. If this thread has identified a difference in strategy between BA and some other airlines, this raises an interesting question: Who has got it right and who has got it wrong? Or is it simply that there is more than one way to run an airline?
 
LHR777
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
sale of GB airlines

GB Airways wasn't owned by BA, so they did not sell it. It was a franchise agreement. BA has brought many GB routes in-house, to be operated by BA metal, and is actually expanding their operation at LGW as a consequence.

Regarding OneWorld, it may be the smallest alliance, but it's also the most profitable.

[Edited 2007-11-24 07:01:53]
 
David_itl
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:17 pm



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 10):
BA has brought many GB routes in-house, to be operated by BA metal,

Don't forget GB wanted to get away from the BA strategy and operate seemingly like any other LCC.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
this thread has identified a difference in strategy between BA and some other airlines, this raises an interesting question: Who has got it right and who has got it wrong? Or is it simply that there is more than one way to run an airline?

Yes there is more than 1 way:
1) Clueless myriad strategies, focusing on any given one for a maximum 18 month period (BD)
2) Wet yourselves at the sign of competition in the regions and rebrand a subsidiary but use the wrong equipment and don't bother spending money to get the right equipment until the wrong equipment helps them make money therefore negating the need to get the right equipment (BA)
3) Announce grandiose things but hope that people have sieve-like memories (VS)

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 8):
really is a fantastically wealthy region of Europe, whereas the rest of the UK limps along somewhere slightly below the European average. Problem currently being addressed

But it will take a long time for that problem to be solved. Imagine what the regions could do if they could spend the money on Crossrail on their own transport infrastructure to make it easier to sell when seeking to attract foreign investors/visitors. Refocusing business and mindset about what destinations are available from local airports will help along (concentrated advertising strategy perhaps in London itself so that investors/visitors can acquaint themselves that if they are not going to London/South East England, they can see the options avialable (but this requires the London Tourist Authority to remember that it's really the British Tourist Authority); a few years ago I saw BA adverts from LHR-JFK at MAN which rather defeats the object of then having a MAN-JFK route; perhaps one or more airlines can do something similar at LHR offering MAN-wherever whilst they have LHR-whereever.
 
vv701
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:42 pm



Quoting MainMAN (Reply 8):
Problem currently being addressed.

Not quite.

In addition to Crossrail - see Reply 11 - there is the termination of the High Speed Cross-Channel link not in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Cardiff or Birmingham (or any combination of more than one of these cities) but at St Pancras London. Then there is the 2012 Olympics in east London.

I am sure that there are some major government infrastructure investment programmes outside of London and the south east, but I am having difficulty in remembering any of them. So to call BA 'London Airways' when . . .

However while it is true that parts of London and the southeast are very affluent it is also true that some of the most deprived and poor regions of the UK are within the boundaries of the Greater London Council. The Olympic village will be located in just one such area.
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:38 pm

British Airways has a very proud history going back to BOAC and Imperial Airways - indeed, much of the route network in years gone by was to serve the British Empire.

It would be lovely to have a truly global carrier that still operates round-the-world flights, serves every major city worldwide, has a significant presence is the UK regions (!), and even has a supersonic aircraft. However, British Airways was privatised 20 years ago and since then the airline's sole purpose has been to do the best thing for its shareholders.

BA's recent financial performance has been nothing short of excellent, particularly considering the numerous operational challenges. Having the network focused on Heathrow has proven to be highly profitable, and despite potential difficulties the future looks even more promising with T5 and new aircraft just around the corner.

Whilst there are risks in relying on one hub airport for the vast majority of the airline's operation, it really wouldn't be sensible to start pulling aircraft away from profitable routes and sending them elsewhere. It doesn't look like opportunities are being overlooked, though - the BA CityFlyer business at LCY has recently expanded, and next year brings the prospect of premium BA flights from the United States direct to continental Europe.
 
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:52 pm



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
BA has a different business approach than that of AF/KL or LH, they focus on routes where they can fill the front cabins consistently, they'd rather send 3xdaily 744's to LAX with full F/J on all three than send just one and the other 2 to places such as SGN, JKT, UIO, PTY or ICN and then be called "global player".

though I understand this on an economical point of view and in order to satisfy the dear shareholders, I think this is sad.
1- it puts in the face of the average pax (who is not an F or J) that only the rich people count
2- if all airline would follow this modus operandi, only business/rich destinations would be served, again sad and uninteresting
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Speedbird2155
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:33 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
Could you immagine the impact of a major disaster in LHR be it terror or other ?

What's your point? The same statement can be made of any hub airport.

As a BA employee, I think the current management's focus is right in trying to fix the issues at LHR and invest in new products and aircraft and remain profitable at the same time. Trying to please everyone and fly to numerous destinations simply to say that we fly to x-number of places doesn't guarantee a profit and quite rightly, should only be flown if it can be shown that the route will consistently be profitable.

Also, your point about being passive in acquisitions, please remember that BA is a result of numerous mergers over the years and has experience in that area. Merging 2 airline cultures isn't easy and can indeed be quite disruptive to the operations. There is no need for BA to rush into any mergers, again largely until we can get the basics right at out main base. Until the move to T5 and things have settled down, it would be foolish to contemplate any major moves such as mergers. The move for IB isn't a merger, but merely an investment, with IB remaining seperate, which is probably the best option at this time.
 
mainMAN
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:12 pm



Quoting David_itl (Reply 11):
But it will take a long time for that problem to be solved

It'll probably take an infinite amount of time.

Quoting David_itl (Reply 11):
Imagine what the regions could do if they could spend the money on Crossrail on their own transport infrastructure to make it easier to sell when seeking to attract foreign investors/visitors.

I can imagine, but I've recently come to the conclusion that although London provides Britain the bulk of its wealth and thus 'deserves' better infrastructure, it also leaches off the rest of the UK to do so. Catch 22.

To a lesser extent, Manchester does the same thing in the north...(?)
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:14 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
why are they so focussed on Heathrow

Because it's about the highest average fare per passenger airport in the world.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
seem to be proud to appear as a UK only airline rather than a global player ?

Most of the world's airlines are restricted to their domestic markets due to protectionist bi-laterals. UA and AA have "beyond" LHR authorities, as do NW and UA at NRT. BA enjoys similar authorities at SIN and HKG (I think). But these types of agreements are few and far between.

Basically, governments protect their airlines from competition. The US does it, so do most of the national governments around the world.
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mainMAN
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:26 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 12):
I am sure that there are some major government infrastructure investment programmes outside of London and the south east, but I am having difficulty in remembering any of them.

Very true. There aren't any.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 12):

However while it is true that parts of London and the southeast are very affluent it is also true that some of the most deprived and poor regions of the UK are within the boundaries of the Greater London Council. The Olympic village will be located in just one such area.

London's got massive deprivation, but on a regional level, it's a damn site more prosperous than my own region. The Olympics are the best thing possible for east London (with the exception of canary wharf, that global financial capital!)
 
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Group51
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm

Don't forget the West Coast Mainline upgrade (London-Glasgow intercity train line). It is nearly finished and will have cost 8-10 billion pounds.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:34 pm

BA is following a strategy that suits the airline, it's hub (and despite presence elsewhere LHT has always been the hub) and it's position. The UK is a group of islands off the West coast of continental Europe. Great place to have a hub for flights to North America (Your feed comes from North, South and East to go West) but less desirable for hubbing passengers from Europe to the East, particularly at a slot constrained airport.

BA's business model is to have 10% earnings from all routes, unless those routes have an added value to the airline in terms of feed, presence, alliance, etc. (An example might be the twice daily flights to SYD - suggestion on here seems to be that these aren't great earners for BA on the Asia-Oz leg, but must be mainatined for the sake of the JSA with QF which is a great earner, plus brings wider benefits).

The franchise carriers (LC, GT) don't fit in with the model BA is now following. LC grew as it took on former BA domestic routes (on top of its own) but overall their contribution to BA was limited. GT operates leisre routes and was being attacked not just by the LCCs but by the existing Charter operators expanding their scheduled flights as the package tour dies the death.

BA has looked at mergers in the past. In the 1990s it made moves for both UA and CO that were thwarted by US Government, and in the end it was restricted to the stake in US. That could have been good for BA if it had been allowed to develop it further given US's strength on the East Coast, but of course it could not. Then BA wanted the major alliance with AA. Again it fell through.

In Europe in the 1990s BA looked at mergers with KL and SN. Again, rules and regugs on cross-border mergers, route authorities, etc, all caused issues. BA attempted to add airlines to broaden it's appeal, but then it had to deal with the rise of the LCCs as well as the existing majors. It had an opportunity to merge with KL a few years ago but this fell through and KL merged with AF. LX fell to LH after BA walked away again. As to IB - it would be a good catch for BA, but not at any price. The Spanish market would be great for longhaul from a BA point of view, but shorthaul wise you'd likely see BA speeding up an entrenchment at MAD. Again, LCC competition is a major factor here.

Personally, I think the lack of a deal with KL is the one that maybe should have been pushed harder to happen. AMS is jokingly called one of the UK's major airports due to the amount of feed KL beings in from the UK regions. That is something BA/KL could have built on, with the argument being that LHR is slot restricted but that the regions get connections to longhaul flights at AMS.

Those who call BA 'London Airways' seem to think that by right BA must serve every market going and have different business models to do this. Many of those are probably the same people who criticise BD for having so many brands and strategies and no focus and sense of direction! It should be remembered that with so little longhaul traffic at LGW it could be asked just why BA maintains an operation there. All those shorthaul flights aren't feeding LHR. Yet BA remains committed to having an LGW operation - because many who use BA for longhaul from LHR use it from LGW for leisure (and some business) as well.

Given the nature of London as a major global centre and the high yield traffic that routes can attract, many should be thankful BA hasn't looked to CX and SQ for it's business model - focus mainly on longhaul flying and connecting major regional cities with widebody flights. BA it must be remembered still does boast a pretty good shorthaul network, even if it's not as extensive as LH, AF/KL, etc.
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elmothehobo
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:40 pm



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
Mainland China (MU)

China Eastern is not in Oneworld. Skyteam is the only carrier with a mainland China carrier (China Southern).

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
Middle East (RJ)

Egypt Air is on its way to Star, Qatar Airways will eventually join Star as well. Though you are right, for the time being Oneworld does have a leg up in the Middle East. On top of that, Gulf Air is part of Oneworld's RTW program.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
OW carriers complement each other so well you get almost the same coverage as you do with STAR/SKY.

Except in Europe, where Oneworld carriers cover the periphery, but offer not meaningful connections within Europe, which puts them at a huge disadvantage relative to the other alliances.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
Besides BA/AA on the north atlantic and BA/CX LHR-HKG and BA/JL LHR-NRT there are few other routes where OW carriers are competing against each other.

Which, in the case of BA/AA, puts the carrier at a disadvantage. Remember, AA and BA can't even extend frequent flyer benefits onto each other's Heathrow-US flights, let alone codeshare.
 
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:48 pm



Quoting AnsettB727 (Reply 3):
I have to say that I don't understand this argument. BA is a mega-airline serving a huge hub at what is Europe's most desirable destination. I'd be investing in LHR, too.

Exactly , love it - hate it ....London is London and if people are putting up with LHR in its present state then it can only get better once T5 is opened and Heathrow East opens. Then the Olympics in 2012!! You'd be mad NOT to invest in London. It will always maintain its status for business and tourism. Roll on the new runway also .
 
tcxdegsy
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:19 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
why are they so focussed on Heathrow and seem to be proud to appear as a UK only airline rather than a global player ?

My two-peneth is... BA is short for BRITISH Airways, not World, European, Transatlantic Airways.. and the second point is.... Project Lauren!
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MAH4546
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:26 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 21):
Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
Mainland China (MU)

China Eastern is not in Oneworld. Skyteam is the only carrier with a mainland China carrier (China Southern).

Correct, but it should be noted that China Eastern is set to join oneWorld, and have begun the process to meet membership qualifications, under the guidance of American Airlines and Cathay Pacific.
a.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:33 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 21):
Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
Mainland China (MU)

China Eastern is not in Oneworld. Skyteam is the only carrier with a mainland China carrier (China Southern).

But both Air China and Shanghai Airlines join the Star Alliance on December 12.
 
JAL
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:54 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 21):

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
Mainland China (MU)

China Eastern is not in Oneworld. Skyteam is the only carrier with a mainland China carrier (China Southern).

Don't forget, DragonAir is a member of OneWorld.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
swallow
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:30 am



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 7):
SA)">OW carriers complement each other so well you get almost the same coverage as you do with STAR/SKY

Except in Africa where you have limited coverage in Southern Africa though Comair. Sky with KQ and Star through SA provide much better options for travel in the continent.
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elmothehobo
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:53 am



Quoting JAL (Reply 26):
Don't forget, DragonAir is a member of OneWorld.

Though Dragonair's has a significant focus on mainland China, it is based in Hong Kong, though for all intents and purposes it gives Oneworld coverage of China before China Eastern's entry.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:39 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
Could you immagine the impact of a major desaster in LHR be it terror or other ?

Imagine what would happen to AF if something happened to CDG, or LH and FRA, or ANA if an "accident" happened to NRT, or QF and SYD.

What do you mean "accident"? Has any accident ever happened to an airport that delayed schedules indefinitely?

Are you talking about a nuclear weapon going off in LHR? Because that kind of thing would ruin everybody's day, so to speak, not just BA's.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:08 pm

Britain is more exposed to potential terror-attacks than say France ,Italy or Germany ,due to your involvement in Iraq and as unconditional supporters of GWB. MI5 are thought to be out to hire as much as 800 new collaborators including Muslims,in order to infiltrate extremist Islamic groups.
While we here in France have issues with Muslim-related racial -ethnic frictions,those problems do not pose the same quality of threat as radical Pakistani/Saudi/Iraqi groups in the UK,who clearly are out to cause extensive economic damage to your country.Among those identified targets are clearly Heathrow as the UK's no.1 economy tool.
It's true that BA have major op's out of Gatwick,but that's a different type of clientéle and mainly leasure-oriented business.
To me it is a big mistake to pull out of Manchester and not to go after Iberia aggressively-both issues do not delute the prime business-model but implement more resiliance.
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Aisak
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:42 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 30):
To me it is a big mistake to pull out of Manchester

Well, most of BA's operations in MAN were franchised. With their sale of BAcon to Flybe they still retain some degree of codesharing and hold 15% of Flybe although BE is not part of BA group.

Same has happened here in Spain with IB pulling out of BCN. A brand new company Clickair was created and currently IB holds 20% of it. All XG routes have the IB codeshare and regional franchise Air Nostrum still continues operating and adding new services at BCN.

Pull out is a little hard. Change of service, change of operation, change of commitment.... But BA still ratin some degree of operation at MAN as well as IB in BCN...
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:09 pm

The pull-out of BCN by Iberia will open the doors for increased services from US ,Asian and South-American carriers into Barcelona .Clickair only replaces partly the business-clientel's needs.The hostility between Catalan and Castillian business and politics is known by most.
The new terminal to be built in BCN will be used jointly by IB and Spanair-so eventually IB will revise their position in BCN ?
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David_itl
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:23 pm



Quoting Aisak (Reply 31):
. With their sale of BAcon to Flybe they still retain some degree of codesharing and hold 15% of Flybe although BE is not part of BA group.

As and when BE float, I believe BA will sell theikr shareholding; I don't think the codeshare deal is a long-tem thing, nor even a medium-term one: perhaps it might last for a maximum of one more year

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 30):
To me it is a big mistake to pull out of Manchester

If it requires them to have around 6 787/767s based in a two-class configuation for long-haul out of BHX/EDI/GLA/MAN and a coherent policy of having a feeding system similar to the one where BA's LHR routes need the feed out of the regions, then we could have to wait a few years. It's just funny that in all the years of the regional transatlantics (BHX-JFK-YYZ, GLA-JFK-BOS, MAN-JFK and MAN-LAX), they barely did anything to enhance the numbers travelling on the service by tailoring services to feed those services, relying almost entirely on point-to-point travel with the disadvantage for MAN nad GLA having shuttle services which probably saw any premium payers "encouraged" to route via LHR. The short-haul feeder scheme could have involved the current flying programme by BE but BACon doing all the work. Perhaps they entire thing (787/767 and feeder) could have been under a single brand

By that time, of course, other airlnes who show a bit of commitment to MAN and like using alliances to their advantage may well cream off all the premium payers who don't mind paying a bit extra to avoid LHR.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
In Europe in the 1990s BA looked at mergers with KL and SN. Again

And funnily enough, KL and SN were slated for some long-haul flying out of MAN. Strange how BA couldn't lower themselves to do it.....

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
Those who call BA 'London Airways' seem to think that by right BA must serve every market going and have different business models to do this.



Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
BA's business model is to have 10% earnings from all routes, unless those routes have an added value to the airline in terms of feed, presence,

So obviously BA is happy to have practically zero presence in most of the United Kingdom?

Quoting Shamrock_747 (Reply 13):
It doesn't look like opportunities are being overlooked, though - the BA CityFlyer business at LCY has recently expanded, and next year brings the prospect of premium BA flights from the United States direct to continental Europe.

I wonder what the councils of various UK cities will make off the idea that "British" Airways favours flying out of Europe to New York rather than out of a British city? Perhaps they might approach some airlines, broker a deal and then hear the squeals of protest from BA.
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 pm



Quoting David_itl (Reply 33):
So obviously BA is happy to have practically zero presence in most of the United Kingdom?

You know this far from the truth. Many, many, many people connect from EDI, NCL, MAN etc and pick up a longhaul service from LHR. This is pretty much the same idea that KL, LH, EK, CO etc all have when they transfer passengers from these destinations via their own hub.

If BA felt that any of cities were not profitable enough (and 'enough' is the keyword here) then I've no doubt that someone would swing an axe in the appropriate direction.

Believe me, I'm often terribly inconvenienced by the lack of direct BA services from my home city but, despite your facts and statistics that clearly prove that the highly profitable BA is missing out on a goldmine, I do accept that the erosion of BA services from outside London is a decision that has not been made irrationally.

Quoting David_itl (Reply 33):
I wonder what the councils of various UK cities will make off the idea that "British" Airways favours flying out of Europe to New York rather than out of a British city? Perhaps they might approach some airlines, broker a deal and then hear the squeals of protest from BA.

Hmmm. Firstly, I don't think anybody could rightly consider that this is any business at all of any town or city council. Perhaps the good citizens of Bordeaux will be similarly outraged when AF begin their own LHR transatlantic service. Secondly, I don't think anybody would rightly consider accepting advice from a town or city council on how to run a profitable commercial enterprise.
Mild green Fairy liquid
 
David_itl
Posts: 6395
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:49 pm



Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 34):
You know this far from the truth

They demsonstrate so effetively....one route that does not involve LHR or LGW from a UK regional airport.

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 34):
despite your facts and statistics that clearly prove that the highly profitable BA is missing out on a goldmine

Not necessarily a goldmine, but the number of times BA (or its predecessor) has "interfered" with the wishes of foreign airlines wanting to operate out of MAN through co-ordinated pressure on the Government of the day does make you wonder what exactly they are afraid of. Premium passengers going of a regional, perhaps? if you're wondering about the BOAC link in MAN hindereance, just remember Sabena's service to New York - one airline introduced the service, put the latest eqiupment on the route, upgraded frequency and maintained MAN operations whereas another airline coughed and spluttered along chugging it's way to Burtwonwood (when they could be bothered) before finally petitioning that Sabena be restricted to a couple of flights per week due "material diversion of traffic". Even the classic case of BA22/21 operating MAN-MUC-DXB-BKK-HKG successfully got converted into a LHR/LGW-MAN-HKG service offering less capacity ex-MAN on the same days as CX. Or Orlando, pulled due to too much competition from charters, which was a strange thing to cite given the charters which were much more abundant outo f LGW which saw no pullout!

Frankly, people do not want to route MAN-LHR-elsewhere if they can get a better experience going MAN-CDG/AMS/FRA/MUC/HEL/DXB/SIN/EWR,etc-elsewhere. Not every passenger doing the latter is going to be the low-yielder (LH must be laughing their heads off given at the lack of BA attention to MAN seeing that they're pleased with the numbers going long-haul business class from MAN, even if the ticket prices are lower than for Germans routing out of MUC or FRA.

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 34):
Hmmm. Firstly, I don't think anybody could rightly consider that this is any business at all of any town or city council.

May be so, but there may be some political fallout if MAN-JFK is pulled. Whether you or any of the BA-brainwashed can understand, all city officials/poiliticians will see in their eyes is the alleged flag carrier focusing on European long-hail routes to the detriment of the UK regions.
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:58 am



Quoting David_itl (Reply 35):
Frankly, people do not want to route MAN-LHR-elsewhere if they can get a better experience going MAN-CDG/AMS/FRA/MUC/HEL/DXB/SIN/EWR

Frankly, you don't speak for the people. Plenty of people route via LHR everyday. That's why it's bursting at the seams.

Certainly, the LHR experience has taken a battering this year. Remains to be seen how well T5 will address the many proplems that arose but, in theory at least, domestic connections at T5 should be quite civilised.

Quoting David_itl (Reply 35):
May be so, but there may be some political fallout if MAN-JFK is pulled. Whether you or any of the BA-brainwashed can understand, all city officials/poiliticians will see in their eyes is the alleged flag carrier focusing on European long-hail routes to the detriment of the UK regions.

To be honest, I think such an event would barely register in any UK media outlet bar the Manchester Evening News. Any 'political fallout' only be comparable in size to the media's reaction (or lack thereof).

Quoting David_itl (Reply 35):
LH must be laughing their heads off given at the lack of BA attention to MAN

I doubt it. No more than BA are laughing their heads off at LH's 'lack of attention' to Berlin or Stuttgart. BA carries sufficient feed from MAN and that, together with feed from elsewhere (plus LHR O&D), means that BA's core LHR business operates very profitably.

Quoting David_itl (Reply 35):
even if the ticket prices are lower than for Germans routing out of MUC or FRA

Quite.
Mild green Fairy liquid
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:46 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 30):
Britain is more exposed to potential terror-attacks than say France ,Italy or Germany ,due to your involvement in Iraq and as unconditional supporters of GWB. MI5 are thought to be out to hire as much as 800 new collaborators including Muslims,in order to infiltrate extremist Islamic groups.

I guess that if there had not been the terror attacks on Madrid's commuter trains you would have included Spain in your list. I just hope that the French, Italian and German authorities do not have your own 'it can never happen here' attitude. If they do they might be in for a very nasty shock.

Quoting David_itl (Reply 33):
So obviously BA is happy to have practically zero presence in most of the United Kingdom?

Who can say that 'obviously' BA is happy or unhappy about anything? Willie Walsh? Well here is what he said in his talk to the Aviation Club on 19 September last:

"A short, third runway [at LHR] would allow the annual total of flights to rise eventually by between 40 and 50 per cent [including gains from mixed mode operation on the two main runways] above current levels.

"This would create capacity to add 75-80 new destinationss, giving the airport a global reach far more comparable with the hubs at Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt.

"In particular, it would allow links to the UK regions top be strengthened and extended.

"The scarcity of slots at Heathrow has resulted in the disappearence of connecting flights to parts of Scotland, the North and the South West, which are crying out for the best possible global links.

"Recent years have seen the number of domestic destinations seved from the national hub slip from 21 to nine."

Walsh does not sound that happy to me on this subject. But that is just my interpretation.
 
David_itl
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:28 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 37):
"In particular, it would allow links to the UK regions top be strengthened and extended.

"The scarcity of slots at Heathrow has resulted in the disappearence of connecting flights to parts of Scotland, the North and the South West, which are crying out for the best possible global links.

"Recent years have seen the number of domestic destinations seved from the national hub slip from 21 to nine."

Walsh does not sound that happy to me on this subject. But that is just my interpretation

If he's that concerned, forget trying to get ann and sundry inhto LHR and operate out of the regions then.

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 36):
carries sufficient feed from MAN and that, together with feed from elsewhere (plus LHR O&D), means that BA's core LHR business operates very profitably.

So can you acknowledge that a build up of a hub-style operation out of one of the regional airport may allow a little bit of pressure away from LHR? Woe betide more days when LHR is accepting long-haul traffic only with short-haul/domestic traffic decimated due to adverse weather conditions

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 36):
Quoting David_itl (Reply 35):
even if the ticket prices are lower than for Germans routing out of MUC or FRA

Quite.

But it's several hundred/thousand pounds not in BA's pockets. Clever move for the shareholder's then?

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 36):
Frankly, you don't speak for the people. Plenty of people route via LHR everyday

It'd be interesting to see the numbers routing over FRA/MUC/AMS/CDG from the regions to those routing over LHR.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1024
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:54 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 32):
The pull-out of BCN by Iberia will open the doors for increased services from US ,Asian and South-American carriers into Barcelona

IB haven't operated long haul out of BCN for a while. On the other hand, besides few exceptions that would've been there no matter what IB does, there are no signs of an increased long haul offer from BCN.

In fact, AENA was willing to give new T-South exclusively to STAR or SKY if either one of them would've show interest on establishing a hub.
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JAL
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:43 am

Given their past actions, I wasn't surprise BA is not going ahead with their purchase of Iberia. I just hope BA is not stupid enough to let Iberia out of OneWorld!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
JAL
Posts: 3876
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:54 am

There was KLM and Swiss, now you can add Iberia on the list of airlines that BA back down from pursuing a closer partnership.

BA is becoming more isolated!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:49 am



Quoting David_itl (Reply 38):
If he's that concerned, forget trying to get ann and sundry inhto LHR and operate out of the regions then.

As has been proved over and over again operating a multi-hub system is a road to financial disaster for a full service carrier.

Is the LHR-JFK route not considered by many as one of the world's most lucrative routes? Yet UA who do not have a hub at either end of this route withdrew from it.

Does CO not fly to eight soon to be nine UK airports even though in area the UK is smaller than the state of Colorado? But can you not only fly to either IAH or EWR from the UK with CO?

Does not AF fly into LHR only from CDG? But does not BA fly from LHR to NCE and LYS as well as CDG?

Can you not fly by EK from virtually any major European airport? But if you do will not your first stop always be DXB?

Did not AZ try to operate intercontinental flights from more than one hub before it withdrew into its shell?

Does AF operating out of a country more than twice the size of the UK operate a single intercontinental flight out of any French city other than Paris?

Does the multinational SK operate a full range of intercontinental flights from Norway and Sweden? Or should we be calling them Copenhagen Airlines?

Of course there are exceptions to any rule. LH operate two main hubs, FRA and MUC. CO operate out of IAH and EWR. AA operate three main hubs, DFW, ORD and MIA. But these double and triple hubs are geographically much further apart than LHR and MAN. It could therefore be argued that it is a little unexpected that BA operates out of Manchester as well as Heathrow to JFK.
 
theginge
Posts: 530
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:43 am



Quoting JAL (Reply 41):
There was KLM and Swiss, now you can add Iberia on the list of airlines that BA back down from pursuing a closer partnership.

BA is becoming more isolated!

Obviously BA has reasons for not pursuing the Iberia bid, maybe they decided it would cost too much financially to do it.

If BA were not making money you could say they were isolated, do you think that if they could make money out of flying from other UK airports, eg Glasgow to USA they would not be doing it??
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2352
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:56 am

Reports in paper this morning state BA is more interested in "getting in to bed" with AA than IB.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1024
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:30 am

BA is relying on being able to exercise a veto based on their stake in case AF or LH try to bid for IB,

If IB is bought by either AF or LH it'd be a big blow to BA and also to OW.
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764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
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JAL
Posts: 3876
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RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:42 pm



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 45):
If IB is bought by either AF or LH it'd be a big blow to BA and also to OW.

Totally agree!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
col
Posts: 1707
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:11 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:49 pm

BA do not have the know how to operate outside of London. They have farmed the regions out to many people, from memory, Manx, Brymon, Loganair, BACON etc, etc, all of which seem to have failed badly. They are good at operating with high volume front end, and with LHR the way it is, they have to be. They are happy flying premium pax via LHR, and I guess T5 will make this a little easier. But as WW says, they are loosing a tremendous amount of transfer traffic from the regions, look at MAN-LHR, it has collapsed as others are walking away with the business. As the BA name gets weaker away from London, I do not see this changing. Myself I avoid LHR and BA like the plague, sick of loosing bags, and getting into MAN directly is easier.

They do seem to be an airline which does not open itself up too well to partnerships. This may be a problem in the future as their premium US traffic gets exposed to CO/DL/NW and Skyteam, along with possible more Star Carriers. Their main advantage over the US carriers will probably be on board amenities, as DL's product is all over the map, CO is getting slowly better and NW is good on the 330 only.
 
Candid76
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 5:10 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:12 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 37):
The scarcity of slots at Heathrow has resulted in the disappearence of connecting flights to parts of Scotland, the North and the South West, which are crying out for the best possible global links.

Well Willie you needn't worry too much as most of them already have the best possible global links, via AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC and now Dubai (and from MAN increasingly Doha and AUH).

I'm sure LHR's new Terminal 5 will be a big selling point for BA (if it works properly). But what it won't do, at least for a number of years, is make congestion and delays at LHR any easier. It's debatable how much more attractive being delayed in a nice terminal is, compared with not being delayed from a slightly less nice terminal.

As far as BA's strategy in the financial sense goes, let's just wait and see what effect, if any, Open Skies has. It may be that this more than negates the benefits of T5, it may not be. Bermuda II was one of the main reasons that so much of BA's wealth lay with transatlantic markets from LHR. Ironic then, that after all these years of at least some presence outside London, BA retrenches there just as that financial safety net is removed.
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

RE: Why Does British Airways Remain So Isolated?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:31 pm

What may happen, or is already happening with Silverjet, Eos, GB Airways, Easyjet... is that the markets that are not in BA's target will go to new airlines, it seems there still is service for most communities. Of course it might be hard to connect from one airline to another. BA is geared to the high end.

Other airlines (eg AF and LH) seem to be looking at all markets (high, middle, low end and cargo)... maybe none of those markets is big enough at their hubs to sustain a large airline. Certainly the high end market in London allows BA to focus on one strategy... but the open skies at LHR might change this.

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