KLM To End Widebody Flights To LHR

HB-IWC · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:04 pm

KLM is to end scheduled widebody flights between Amsterdam and London's Heathrow airport with the onset of the next northern summer schedule effective March 30, 2008. The airline currently operates a daily A332 between the two cities as KL1007/1008 in the morning. The outbound KL1007 connects to the airline's overnight longhaul arrivals from Africa, the Middle East, the Subcontinent, South East Asia as well as to a first batch of transatlantic arrivals, and regularly carries large numbers of connecting passengers and freight to London. The return flight KL1008 connects to the airline's 2pm and 3.30pm longhaul departure banks.

Before changing to the A332, KL1007/1008 had previously mainly been operated by the airline's B763ER fleet, although the company occasionally sent other widebody equipment to Heathrow. Before that, the service was regularly operated by A310 albeit with different flight numbers.

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From the summer 2008 schedule onwards, KL1007/1008 will revert to a B733, and will upgrade to a B738 for the peak July and August travel, although KLM is very likely to make regular equipment changes in function of expected loads. It is not unthinkable that a company widebody will still occasionally visit Heathrow.

express1 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:14 pm

Well that's going to be a sad moment, i will surly miss the A330s into LHR,and seeing the rusty old B733s back in.

dave

upperdeckfan · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:25 pm

Since no additional frequencies are being added, one would assume loads and freight have gone down, is it right?

Will this A332 be sitting at AMS all morning long or will be deployed elsewhere?

HB-IWC · Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 2):
Will this A332 be sitting at AMS all morning long or will be deployed elsewhere?

KLM is dispatching two additional A332s in the first longhaul departure bank at 10am when compared to last summer's operation. KL669 will leave for DFW at 10am (new flight), while KL459 is scheduled to KWI and MCT at 10.10am (new schedule because of MCT tag). On the other hand, the KL657 to EWR will no longer be operated. Overall, though, the A332 utilization will go up next summer, despite the loss of the LHR rotation.

larspl · Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:12 pm

what about the AF-KL longhaul operation from LHR?
i would think the a330 would be perfect equipment from lhr onwards..
any news on equipment, operator, start date, destination?

PEET7G · Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:18 pm

This is sad news for me, I regularly made my London trip via AMS just for the fun of riding the A330... besides many times price was better or the same as flying directly BUD-LHR-BUD... not to mention the miles looked good on my Flying Blue card Sad

As for loads... hmm dunno, last time was in first days of October and I was pretty surprised how full the plane was.

B747forever · Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:35 pm

Really really sad that KLM will end its service with the A330 to LHR.

As LarSPL mention the A330 would be perfect for flights from LHR to the U.S

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
KLM is to end scheduled widebody flights between Amsterdam and London's Heathrow airport with the onset of the next northern summer schedule effective March 30, 2008. T

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 5):
This is sad news for me, I regularly made my London trip via AMS just for the fun of riding the A330

...even though I fly on enough A332's, I'll have to try to get on this one before they stop flying it on said route....

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Before that, the service was regularly operated by A310 albeit with different flight numbers.

..didn't even know KL had A310's in the fleet...those A310's do look good in KL Colours... yes

CO767FA · Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:44 pm

Doesn't this correspond to the flood of new US airlines arriving into LHR? Perhaps that has something to do with the withdrawl of widebodies on AMS-LHR.

airportugal310 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:57 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
Doesn't this correspond to the flood of new US airlines arriving into LHR? Perhaps that has something to do with the withdrawl of widebodies on AMS-LHR.

I agree with the logic here.

The only thing that would lead me to believe it is something else is that there are plenty of US-LHR flights long before the new airlines start flying there. In other words, why would anyone bother connecting threw Amsterdam to get to London? Seems like an incredible waste of time to me, unless the price is right?

Just another thought...thats all.

dutchjet · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:02 pm

Shame, the end of an era. KL's daily widebody to LHR was a ""tradition"" that, as pointed out, operated for years with various types. It was my understanding that the widebody turn to LHR was basically a ""cargo run"" moving lots of frieght between London and African destinations. I do wonder how KL will handle this in the future?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
didn't even know KL had A310's in the fleet...those A310's do look good in KL Colours...

I am surprised that you didnt know this.......KL was one of the launch customers for the A310-200; KL had problems integrating the A312s into their fleet, mainly due to range issues......the A312 was short on range and could not be dispatched on transatlantic services. The A312 were acquired to replace DC8-60 aircraft on medium haul runs and for high demand European routes; KL replaced the A312s with leased 763ERs which, of course, had more range and thus more flexibility.....but hauling cargo is not one of the 767's strongest attributes. Its interesting that KL had a love/hate relationship with both the A310 and the 763ER.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
Doesn't this correspond to the flood of new US airlines arriving into LHR? Perhaps that has something to do with the withdrawal of widebodies on AMS-LHR.

I really dont see a connection. KL's widebody service to London was focused on moving pax and cargo between London and Africa.

EXAAUADL · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:04 pm

well i am sure it is extremely expensive to fly a A330 on such a short hop...it hurts utlization....now KL has roughly 3-4 hours of free A330 time. They cant do anything with it probably, but they if there is additional A330 time thru the day they can string it toigether and get a medium haul out of it, or they can let it sit to improve reliability

BRxxx · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:09 pm

Ok, something doesn't make sense here. Unless there is a MASSIVE drop in loads between AMS and LHR, I don't see why they suddenly downgrade a wide body that can carry 270-300 people to a narrow body that can only carry 100-150 people. Plus, aren't there supposed to be some cargo loads between these two places as well?

EXAAUADL · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting BRxxx (Reply 12):
Ok, something doesn't make sense here. Unless there is a MASSIVE drop in loads between AMS and LHR, I don't see why they suddenly downgrade a wide body that can carry 270-300 people to a narrow body that can only carry 100-150 people. Plus, aren't there supposed to be some cargo loads between these two places as well?

its called winter...local cargo can go by sea, its cheaper

kaitak · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:21 pm

The 733s won't be long in the fleet anyway; in time, we should be seeing the 737-700 operating that flight; the first are due to arrive over the Winter.

I am certainly sorry to see the A330 go; I have a good few trips planned which involve taking that flight. I took it a year or two ago, when the airline flew a 767 on the route and it was very nice indeed. 737s are fine, don't get me wrong, but I'd always take a widebody, given half a chance.

Incidentally, given all the changes of terminal assignments, does KLM still intend to stay at T4?

Humberside · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:49 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 14):
does KLM still intend to stay at T4?

Yes. T4 will be the Skyteam terminal

BrianDromey · Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:55 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 14):
Incidentally, given all the changes of terminal assignments, does KLM still intend to stay at T4?

I would imagine so. I think all the skyTeam folks are moving to T4.

I wonder if the imminent introduction of a high speed link between LON and Amsterdam had any impact on this? If the flight was mainly conneting passengers and freight to Africa, I would have thought not. It seems more like a shortage of equipment for the summer schedule. Perhaps when KL gets the two new 332s the flight will revert.

Brian.

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
I am surprised that you didnt know this.......KL was one of the launch customers for the A310-200;

...we can't know everything... Wink

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
KL had problems integrating the A312s into their fleet, mainly due to range issues......the A312 was short on range and could not be dispatched on transatlantic services. The A312 were acquired to replace DC8-60 aircraft on medium haul runs and for high demand European routes; KL replaced the A312s with leased 763ERs which, of course, had more range and thus more flexibility.....but hauling cargo is not one of the 767's strongest attributes. Its interesting that KL had a love/hate relationship with both the A310 and the 763ER.

....interesting...thanks for the information.. thumbsup

....quite interesting history indeed. Given that KL is downguaging the A332 to LHR, it could be that cargo to LHR isn't as important now as it once was.

Certainly the A310-300 is more than capable for transatlantic services..maybe KL should have waited a few more years and/or should have opted for getting the A313 also...

HB-IWC · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
Doesn't this correspond to the flood of new US airlines arriving into LHR? Perhaps that has something to do with the withdrawl of widebodies on AMS-LHR.

Quoting BRxxx (Reply 12):
Ok, something doesn't make sense here. Unless there is a MASSIVE drop in loads between AMS and LHR, I don't see why they suddenly downgrade a wide body that can carry 270-300 people to a narrow body that can only carry 100-150 people. Plus, aren't there supposed to be some cargo loads between these two places as well?

KLM wil actually increase frequencies on the AMS LHR route next summer, from the current 9 daily flights to 10 next year (Mondays to Fridays, 8 on Saturdays, 9 on Sundays). So there will be no actual shortfall in available seats on the route. The main determinant for the withdrawal of the A332 from the route seems to be that the aircraft will be more heavily used for longhaul flying. Average daily utilization of the A332 fleet, which will count 10 units next summer, is expected to increase to almost 14 hours from last summer's 13h20.

larspl · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:35 pm

dutch news site www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl just got a piece out:

with introduction of new airplanes with the new order which was just announced they intend to open new routes.
focus on china, india and south amerika.

what can we expect around 2010?

HB-IWC · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:46 pm

Quoting LarSPL (Reply 19):
what can we expect around 2010?

That's a different thread altogether, but it is clear that KLM is studying multiple options, in close cooperation with AF, of course. These options include the reinforcement of and/or introduction of nonstop services to current destinations as well as the opening of new destinations. India and China are obvious markets, although KLM's experiences with Chengdu have not been as splendid as hoped. Neverthless, another secondary China destinations is definitely in the cards, apart from the further reinforcement of Shanghai to twice daily service. In India, Bangalore seems to have a good chance as well as Mumbai, although the former is already served by AF and the latter receives daily NW service from AMS. In South America, KL/AF is investigating options in Brazil, with Recife receiving a some attention. I would also not be surprised if KL eventually goes back to Buenos Aires. The airline is, finally, also actively seeking rights to Angola.

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
That's a different thread altogether, but it is clear that KLM is studying multiple options, in close cooperation with AF, of course. These options include the reinforcement of and/or introduction of nonstop services to current destinations as well as the opening of new destinations. India and China are obvious markets, although KLM's experiences with Chengdu have not been as splendid as hoped. Neverthless, another secondary China destinations is definitely in the cards, apart from the further reinforcement of Shanghai to twice daily service. In India, Bangalore seems to have a good chance as well as Mumbai, although the former is already served by AF and the latter receives daily NW service from AMS. In South America, KL/AF is investigating options in Brazil, with Recife receiving a some attention. I would also not be surprised if KL eventually goes back to Buenos Aires. The airline is, finally, also actively seeking rights to Angola.

I wonder like a few other European carriers (namely LH), if KL will re-introduce Pakistan again (KHI or possibly ISB).....KL previously used to fly AMS-KHI-CMB....with a B742....I know BA is looking to re-introduce KHI again after many years......

Actually AF used to fly to KHI also...

larspl · Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:09 pm

and..
going on the A330 topic..
since HB-IWC is so well informed that it makes me jalous..

MP is rumoured to start receiving 10 A330's starting next year out of the AF-KL group.
source AF? any change in destinations?

marky · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
Shame, the end of an era. KL's daily widebody to LHR was a ""tradition"" that, as pointed out, operated for years with various types.

This is just the latest of the European flag carriers to stop bringing their widebodies to LHR, in the late 80's/early '90's virtually all the major European flag carriers flew widebodies to LHR. Others I can think of that had regularly scheduled widebody service include:

Air France (A300, A310)
Sabena (A310)
Iberia (A300, DC10)
Swissair (A310)
SAS (767)
Alitalia (A300)
Balkan (767)
Air Malta (A310)

Plenty of others have operated occasional flights, or for short periods

Lufthansa A300s, TAP A310s, Cyprus A330s and Olympic and Turkish A340s are just about the only ones that remain. It's surprising that as slots at LHR have become more and more scare, the aircraft operated by the European airlines have tended to get smaller.

airportugal310 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:32 pm

Possibly a dumb question but I dont know all that much on slots etc...

Is the landing fee already included in the price of a slot or is that a seperate bill?

dutchjet · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting Marky (Reply 23):
It's surprising that as slots at LHR have become more and more scare, the aircraft operated by the European airlines have tended to get smaller.

A very important point, indeed. The move to frequency (1) to offer pax (read premium Frequent Flyers) more choice and (2) to time flights during departure and arrival banks at each carriers respective hub(s) to allow multiple connection possibilities, has resulted in airlines offering more flights with smaller airplanes. That this is the trend at slot constricted LHR (where slots are so very valuable) is fascinating.

WesternA318 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
..didn't even know KL had A310's in the fleet...those A310's do look good in KL Colours...

Ahh the 310's were the pretiest plane KLM ever had in my opinion, well, aside from the legendary DC-10. What a sad day that KLM is reducing the equipment on this route.

A388 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting LarSPL (Reply 22):
MP is rumoured to start receiving 10 A330's starting next year out of the AF-KL group.

I have read the same on luchtvaartnieuws.nl. Will MP indeed be getting the A332? If so will they be brandnew aircraft and when is the first batch to be received at MP? They will most likely be used to CUR as well so it will be great to see a MP A332 arrive here in CUR!

A388 Big grin

OA260 · Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Before that, the service was regularly operated by A310 albeit with different flight numbers.

My first flight with KLM back in 1991 was on an A310 LHR-AMS!! Shame to see the end of widebody operations with the A330. Its an end of an era of KLM in LHR. I can see a few last minute TR's coming up .

dutchjet · Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 27):
I have read the same on luchtvaartnieuws.nl. Will MP indeed be getting the A332? If so will they be brandnew aircraft and when is the first batch to be received at MP? They will most likely be used to CUR as well so it will be great to see a MP A332 arrive here in CUR!

We are a bit off-topic, but it was my understanding that the MP A332s would be sourced from the Air France fleet; AF would replace the A332s with additional 773ERs and A388s (and lots of aircraft/route assignments being revised in the process....with capacity added to most routes as larger aircraft was introduced). Will this happen? I really dont know, there have been various versions of this rumor out there.

singel09 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:31 am

I picked up the rumour that the KLM A330's will go to Martinair ... being true or not, where there is smoke ...

WesternA318 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
...not better than the B772ER's..

I was speaking in terms of classic airliners, nothing from the new kids on the block (although the 777 is over 10 yrs old)

acvitale · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:40 am

KLM has actually been increasing its London O/D cargo share. The key is that they have been using truck traffic to bring it to London from Amsterdam for a few years. With some notable exceptions (fruits/vegs) most of the bulk cargo is now being sent by truck.

Last year they started shipping some of the African origin fruit and veg cargo via truck. The difference was that cargo leaving Africa in the evening used to arrive the next AM in LON. With the trucks it arrives late afternoon or early evening.

jacobin777 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 32):
I was speaking in terms of classic airliners

..ah, ok... thumbsup

A388 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
...not better than the B772ER's...

YES! The famous KL 777 photo is back Jacob, haha. It's like I'm a sports commentator on national television, haha. I am glad to see it again mate Smile

A388

jacobin777 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 35):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
...not better than the B772ER's...

YES! The famous KL 777 photo is back Jacob, haha. It's like I'm a sports commentator on national television, haha. I am glad to see it again mate

A388 biggrin}

...A388, before I even clicked on the link, I saw your name as the last post and I knew what you were going to be mentioning.. biggrin

you have to admit, it was the perfect opportunity for it...and you know I find KL's B772ER's to be one of the most beautiful birds in the sky... yes

WesternA318 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 36):
you have to admit, it was the perfect opportunity for it...and you know I find KL's B772ER's to be one of the most beautiful birds in the sky...

Nahh...lol, they look, too ...umm..blue, lol. I prefer Mad Max over from CO..now THATS a hot 772!

USADreamliner · Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 9):
why would anyone bother connecting threw Amsterdam to get to London? Seems like an incredible waste of time to me, unless the price is right?

You can't be serious.

KL577 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
I would also not be surprised if KL eventually goes back to Buenos Aires. The airline is, finally, also actively seeking rights to Angola.

Has KLM ever looked at returning to Freetown and/or Monrovia?

LifelinerOne · Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Singel09 (Reply 30):
I picked up the rumour that the KLM A330's will go to Martinair ... being true or not, where there is smoke ...

There are quite a lot of rumours going around at the moment... One is that Martinair will not exist anymore as a brand and that the AF-KLM group will create an "inside" charterairline. This "airline" will operate mainly A330's to tourist destinations like Curacao, Sint Maarten etc. This would also include the Caribbean and Pacific flights of Air France.

I don't know this is true, but I could see the logic behind it.

Cheers! wave

HB-IWC · Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting Singel09 (Reply 30):
I picked up the rumour that the KLM A330's will go to Martinair ...

KLM's A332s - as well as AF's A332s, for that matter - are staying where they are for the time being. As a matter of fact, a tenth aircraft will be added in just a couple of months.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 39):
Has KLM ever looked at returning to Freetown and/or Monrovia?

I don't think that is even on the radar screen right now. KLM is actively pursuing rights into Angola, yet the outcome of those negotiations is unpredictable at best. Apart from reinforcements in the existing network, look for the opening of new destinations on the Subcontinent, in China and in Central and South America.

A342 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 18):
The main determinant for the withdrawal of the A332 from the route seems to be that the aircraft will be more heavily used for longhaul flying.

And there won't be any long layovers during which it could serve LHR? Or will they occur at unsuitable times of the day?

airportugal310 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 38):
You can't be serious.

Oh believe me..I'm serious. If there is one thing I don't do pal is bullshit. Know that one thing about me and your good to go.

Am I looking at this from an airlines point of view? NO.

From an airline passengers? YES.

Some folks on these forums THINK they know everything about EVERY airline passenger out there. You seem to be one of them.

Are you trying to tell me that you would prefer connecting to London from a US city given the option of a non-stop flight? I mean, put your "i'm an airline enthusiast so i love flying on planes and la la la i love planes!!!" hat away for a single minute and answer that question truthfully. Why risk two possible sets of delays (not that AMS is a terribly delay-prone airport that I know of...) but LHR sure is at certain times.

So to answer your original question...

Yes Im serious.

HB-IWC · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 42):
And there won't be any long layovers during which it could serve LHR? Or will they occur at unsuitable times of the day?

Sure enough there will be excess ground time at AMS, but from an operational perspective it is smarter to keep the aircraft at the homebase, thereby increasing overall operational stability for the A332 fleet, because of increased spare capacity. As said, there will be increased average daily utilization for the A332 fleet, and the reduced spare capacity that results from the increased longhaul flying, can be somewhat compensated by the cancellation of the LHR rotation. Keeping a widebody on the ground at the homebase does not represent a waste of resources per se.

petertenthije · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 36):
you have to admit, it was the perfect opportunity for it...and you know I find KL's B772ER's to be one of the most beautiful birds in the sky...

You ever considered taking a trip to AMS to get a few other shots of a KLM 772? Maybe even a 773 in some months?

A342 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 44):
Sure enough there will be excess ground time at AMS, but from an operational perspective it is smarter to keep the aircraft at the homebase, thereby increasing overall operational stability for the A332 fleet, because of increased spare capacity. As said, there will be increased average daily utilization for the A332 fleet, and the reduced spare capacity that results from the increased longhaul flying, can be somewhat compensated by the cancellation of the LHR rotation. Keeping a widebody on the ground at the homebase does not represent a waste of resources per se.

I guess a dedicated spare aircraft would be much more expensive, even if we take the additional revenue the other aircraft could generate into account, right?

flyingclrs727 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 9):
n other words, why would anyone bother connecting threw Amsterdam to get to London? Seems like an incredible waste of time to me, unless the price is right?

But even if one were to connect through Amsterdam, why start at Heathrow? There are other airports in the London area that would be easier for O & D.

HB-IWC · Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
I guess a dedicated spare aircraft would be much more expensive, even if we take the additional revenue the other aircraft could generate into account, right?

One should look at an airline operation as a whole, not in terms of individual aircraft, and when looking at the proposed KLM A332 operation for next summer, one can see that at almost every moment KLM has a spare A332 frame available. That is not one particular aircraft that is used as a spare, but an inherent spare capacity which is built in the schedule and which allows the airline enough operational freedom to overcome irregularities through the dynamics of aircraft changes.

airportugal310 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 47):
But even if one were to connect through Amsterdam, why start at Heathrow? There are other airports in the London area that would be easier for O & D.

Absolutely true. I suppose there is no need to single Heathrow out, though, I was trying to keep in the theme of the topic.

But true nonetheless.

KL577 · Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 40):
I don't think that is even on the radar screen right now. KLM is actively pursuing rights into Angola, yet the outcome of those negotiations is unpredictable at best. Apart from reinforcements in the existing network, look for the opening of new destinations on the Subcontinent, in China and in Central and South America.

I find this somewhat strange given SN's 4x weekly services to ROB and biweekly to FNA. They are doing good business on these routes. And witht the political and economical situation in both countries further stabilizing, one would expect AF-KL to fill these gaps in their West-African networks at some point. I would expect the yields to be better here, then some Indian destinations with all the competition from BA, LH and the rest.

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