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nema
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Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:06 pm

Going back some years, Business Class seats were for just that, Business Class customers whose companies would pay for their seats. First Class was for the affluent traveller, the rich and famous.

Now days I wonder who the Business Class area is targeted at as companies tighten their travel expenses budget and, the Business Class sections are more than just about more legroom and wider seats, they're a whole world of difference to what once was. In fact todays Business Class can be a world in front of the old First.

I have a friend who is a multi millionaire, travels from the UK to China once a month and refuses to pay First Class prices when Business Class is so good in what it offers.

So what sector of client is Business Class aimed at?
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CanadianNorth
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:36 pm

At the rate it's going I'm almost picturing the same old classes, just with new names...

Current Business class is already prelacing the old First class
Current Premium economy could potentially replace the old Business class
Current Economy just gets to be Economy

Not saying it will happen, just saying it seems like it could...


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wilco737
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:42 pm



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 1):

Yeah, sounds about right.... If you compare the current C class with the old F classes... And todays F classes  cloudnine   eyepopping 

Quoting NEMA (Thread starter):
So what sector of client is Business Class aimed at?

Oh and to answer your question:  scratchchin  Business is the perfect class for ME  stirthepot   Big grin

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jfk787nyc
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:44 pm

That's why carriers like KLM, NWA, Delta, Continental dont have First whats the point. You get business class and its the same thing.
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:58 pm



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 1):
Current Business class is already prelacing the old First class
Current Premium economy could potentially replace the old Business class
Current Economy just gets to be Economy

So what is the target market for the new First Class? People who would have chartered private jets?
 
Norlander
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 4):

Short answer: Yes.

With the new First Class products out of the Gulf and SQ with private cabins it looks like it's more and more targeted to those who otherwise would have flown on their own jet. SQ's new product seems to be able to compete with private jets at least on a combined speed/cost/comfort scale from LHR to SIN / SYD.
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NWOrientDC10
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:38 pm

I was under the impression that business class was for businessmen who need to work while travelling. This means a quiet cabin with decent seating and minimal interruptions. At least that's what I think.

By the way, wasn't TWA the first carrier to introduce this concept with Ambassador Class?

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AeroWesty
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:51 pm



Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 6):
By the way, wasn't TWA the first carrier to introduce this concept with Ambassador Class?

Pan Am was the first to offer a separate class for full-fare economy passengers and they named it Clipper Class. Qantas was the first to offer upgraded seating and amenities in a separate class and call it Business Class. Who was first with this "concept" is still up for debate depending upon how you want to look at it. Either first with merely an exclusive section of Coach, or the first with the cabin design which would evolve into what we know today.
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 pm



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 1):
Current Economy just gets to be Economy

Oh yes. And getting worse and worse.
 
Evan767
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:07 pm

NRSA's

..........
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
davescj
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:12 pm

J cabin is also a way to spend those hard earned FF as upgrades!!

One of the funniest things I read in a TR was a guy who decided traveling in Club World (BA Biz Cabin) wasn't so bad after all (normally he'd buy an F ticket).

As other have said, the new J is the old F.


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Stitch
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:14 pm



Quoting NEMA (Thread starter):
Now days I wonder who the Business Class area is targeted at as companies tighten their travel expenses budget and, the Business Class sections are more than just about more legroom and wider seats, they're a whole world of difference to what once was.

Business Class is still targeted at corporate travelers. One of the reasons it has gained so much in service quality and opulence is to continue to get corporations to purchase it for their staff. Having your staff arrive in the EU in the morning rested and refreshed and ready to work can be cheaper then sending them across in Economy and having them spend their first day sleeping off the jet-lag so they can be ready for work the following day. Plus there is less "wear and tear" mentally and physically.

I expect part of the reason Premium Economy cabins are becoming popular since the extra room helps reduce the wear-and-tear factor. I could see it being very popular to Asia where you often arrive in the early evening (at least from the US West Coast) and can immediately head for bed.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Having your staff arrive in the EU in the morning rested and refreshed and ready to work can be cheaper then sending them across in Economy and having them spend their first day sleeping off the jet-lag so they can be ready for work the following day.

While business class is certainly better than economy, in my experience anyone who says they can arrive in Europe "rested and refreshed and ready to work" after flying all night, regardless of class of service, is lying!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 6):
By the way, wasn't TWA the first carrier to introduce this concept with Ambassador Class?


Pan Am was the first to offer a separate class for full-fare economy passengers and they named it Clipper Class. Qantas was the first to offer upgraded seating and amenities in a separate class and call it Business Class. Who was first with this "concept" is still up for debate depending upon how you want to look at it. Either first with merely an exclusive section of Coach, or the first with the cabin design which would evolve into what we know today.

I believe KLM may have been first with the "exclusive section of economy" for full fare passengers on their early 747s. It was called FFF (Full Fare Facilities). Same seats as Y but slightly upgraded service. It wasn't long before it became a dedicated business class with more spacious seating.

[Edited 2007-11-25 13:41:36]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:42 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
While business class is certainly better than economy, in my experience anyone who says they can arrive in Europe "rested and refreshed and ready to work" after flying all night, regardless of class of service, is lying!

No doubt why one of my old companies used to send me and the other staff over on ConcordeBig grin

Seriously, I find I can function quite fine if I went over in Business Class, even if I don't sleep (which is often), because at least I can relax. Of course, I did even better in First.  Smile
 
baflyer
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 6):
I was under the impression that business class was for businessmen who need to work while travelling

I saw a statistic once that went something along the lines of :-

90% of businessmen used the working while flying reason to justify to their superiors the expense of business class but only 10% actually admitted to doing any work while sitting in the comfy seat.
Most frustrating part of being an atheist - Never being able to say "Told you so".
 
PVG
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:16 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
While business class is certainly better than economy, in my experience anyone who says they can arrive in Europe "rested and refreshed and ready to work" after flying all night, regardless of class of service, is lying!

Firstly, it's not nice to call someone a liar, especially a guy who contributes lots of interesting comments to the board.

Secondly, I fly from Asia to the European time zones every six weeks or so. It makes a huge difference in how you function the following day if you've flown in C class with a decent bed rather than being squeezed in the back in cattle class. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
 
nicholaschee
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:34 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):

Are you so sure about the point you just made? I have flown SIN-LHR-SIN on Business and Economy many times. Having a decent bed to just lie on and have cat naps is way better than squeezing in Economy with poor seat pitches. Maybe not refreshed but definitely adequately rested and ready to work.
 
nicholaschee
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:41 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):

Personally, if I was the company's bean-counter, I would prefer the staff fly cattle class and have a day's rest in a good hotel with meal/shopping allowances before starting work the next day.

Economy Ticket + Hotel + Allowance = US$2k?

Business Ticket = US$6k?
 
eric
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:49 am



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 17):
Personally, if I was the company's bean-counter, I would prefer the staff fly cattle class and have a day's rest in a good hotel with meal/shopping allowances before starting work the next day.

Economy Ticket + Hotel + Allowance = US$2k?

Business Ticket = US$6k?

Cost of staff in pure salary? Cost of lost revenue generation? Intangible measures such employee morale, especially among higher ranking staff?

There are more to saving money than the directly associated expense. Intangible costs, especially opportunity cost, needs to be added in to any equation.
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AFGMEL
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:08 am

Speaking from the perspective of long haul (particularly from Aus) 12-24 hours, business class is definitely used by business a lot. I would be interested to hear from travel agents about their proportion of business to leisure though. I only fly business long haul. That's also because I am 6'4" and, err, chunky shall we say. If I was flying for business, company can put out for the fare. I wouldn't want to arrived completely shagged and then have to attend meetings etc. Staying a night or two might refresh you, but time is normally a premium when traveling for business.

Not sure it's needed as much in Europe though. Still, why not? People will pay to not have to queue as much, have lounges etc. I do. Go on holiday less often, but in more comfort.
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Viscount724
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:21 am



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 16):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):


Are you so sure about the point you just made? I have flown SIN-LHR-SIN on Business and Economy many times. Having a decent bed to just lie on and have cat naps is way better than squeezing in Economy with poor seat pitches. Maybe not refreshed but definitely adequately rested and ready to work.

I'm sure it varies from person to person, and those you can easily sleep on flights are much better off. Even with flat beds, I've never been a good sleeper and rarely get more than an hour or two regardless how long the flight is.
 
jumboforever
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:22 am

Just my 2p. on the question but the purpose of business class is a bit more complex than that.

I'm definitively convinced that business class is more and more targeting a new class of pax wealthy enough to pay more to travel in comfortable condition, not forgetting the 'status' you get compared to people travelling cattle class. Lounge access, security fast track, priority boarding, welcome drink, priority luggages delivery are some of the things those passengers are looking for in order to enjoy their leisure travel without hassle. I live in Japan and now all tour operators have option for business class travelling with high-class hotel accommodation in their package. My impression is that this category of passengers represents a significant part of business class tickets sold.

As for business travelers, even if companies are tightening their corporate travel expenses, it still expect the demand to be growing here. I'm wondering how many people on a.net are taking in consideration travel condition when they negotiate for a new job, but I'm sure it could make the difference between two equivalent offers. Also with corporate contracts, some companies can get business class seats dirty cheap compared to published fares.

Regards,

JumboForever
 
warren747sp
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:45 am

Any trip transatlantic which is longer than say from the east coast needs to be business class. Other wise premium economy should be fine for most people.
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KLM11
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:55 am

In all honesty, I think long-haul F products are unnecessary and a rip off. The service levels in most airlines' J cabins are nearly identical to that provided in F, and in terms of seats, most carriers (granted, few exceptions) offer a long-haul J product which, like F, is either a lie-flat or flat-bed seat. When traveling overseas on LX or BA in J, I can expect a 4 course meal, whereas in F, it's normally 5-7 courses. Wow, big difference!  Wink And as for check-in, lounges, etc., F and J are nearly indistinguishable.

Example:

In January, R/T LAX-SYD F-class on QF = U.S.D $22,876
In January, R/T LAX-SYD J-class on QF = U.S.D. $14,980

Why in the world would anyone pay $7896 more for a seat which has 19'' more legroom (60'' J vs. 79'' F) and is only .5'' wider? Status is all I can guess...

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Stitch
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:03 am



Quoting KLM11 (Reply 23):
In all honesty, I think long-haul F products are unnecessary and a rip off...as for check-in, lounges, etc., F and J are nearly indistinguishable.

I find the First Class lounge to be quieter and less-crowded then the Business Class lounge since less people can access it. And at an airport like FRA with LH's terminal, it truly is a totally different experience. Check-in is also quicker in F (again, less people) and many airlines will block Business Class from exiting until I am off, which means that I am first to C&I and not hitting it with, literally, scores of my fellow Business Class passengers.

In a suite you have much more privacy and you do not disturb your neighbor when getting in and out, nor do they disturb you when doing the same. I give VS/DL/AC credit for developing the "herringbone" seating pattern which eliminates this, but on most other airlines, access to the aisles is effectively blocked when the person sitting their is fully extended for sleep, requiring you to climb over them.

Catering is usually not much better (one can only do so much with reheated frozen dinners), but I do enjoy those airlines that will cook me a breakfast on board in First because that meal is by far the most difficult to make palatable when frozen and re-heated.

I admit to finding Business Class more then acceptable and agree that, overall, it is a far better value for the money. But that doesn't mean I don't mind spending the extra miles for F on occasion nor do I pass up an Operational Upgrade from Business Class when offered.  Wink
 
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centrair
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:06 am



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 3):


Exactly. I say make a really good Business/First hybrid, and then keep economy as is or add a premium economy on specific routes. The only difference between Y and Premium Y? 1 inch legroom and 1 inch recline.

NW has done very well with WBC. It eliminated Imperial years ago. I mean it was just C seats with more legroom and more recline.

That all said. SQ's new A380 First is just amazing looking and this is what True First certain aims to be. If you are paying for a suite on the other end of your journey, might as well have a suite in the sky. The business class can be aimed for those that want more than Y but don't need a suite.

Simple answer to question, "Who is Business class intended for?"
ME....airlines just forget everytime I check in.
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:14 am

Those on expense accounts and frequent flyer upgrades.

Individuals with enough spare cash to fly Business probably have enough to fly First.

imho
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AFGMEL
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:43 am



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 26):
Individuals with enough spare cash to fly Business probably have enough to fly First.

Not me. I can afford Business. Not First.

Quoting KLM11 (Reply 23):
In January, R/T LAX-SYD F-class on QF = U.S.D $22,876
In January, R/T LAX-SYD J-class on QF = U.S.D. $14,980

That is a rip-off. That is why we need more competition Aus-US.
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AFGMEL
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:47 am

Just checked. We booked today to fly Europe in July. We're paying $5300 with KE. Good connections and fly to our destinations. First is $7200. That is another $2000 which would pay for our accommodation in London. Just not worth it.

Incidentally, First class with EK is $12500 approx. Compare that with Business QF to the US.
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Curiousflyer
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:57 am

I can fly from NYC to South East Asia and back for $1,500 in coach, on a private trip. But it will be a 19hrs torture. So I'd much preferto get a seat in which I can sleep and not have neighbors too close to me. Too bad it costs 4,000 at least, if not $10,000 in business! If there was an option for $2,500 I would not hesitate a second.

I will look around though, be creative and flexible, maybe mix coach and business, but I will do my best to avoid a coach nightmare that will make my vacation a bit less nice. I believe that the Silverjets and Oasises have a great future ahead.
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:03 am

I could never justify paying for F or J for myself. If I can pay $1500 for a ticket instead of $14000 For J or $20000 for F class i sure as heck will! I have traveled business before but it was always an unexpected upgrade. Sure it was nice but was it worth over $10000 more? NOOOOOOOO.... I mean, we are only talking about a few extra hours of your life... Is it worth the money? Definately not. Is it worth the status? That is up to the individual.

I prefer to save the money and buy another new development condo in the city instead of paying all that money for a few extra inches of legroom and some nice champagne.

If someone is covering F or J for me, sure i will take it! If not, cattle class is not that bad. Ingvar Kamprad the founder of IKEA and one of the richest men in the world still travels cattle class, and he can buy the whole plane if he wanted to.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:07 am

However, in the United States, most people fly economy, and some people with some extra cash fly premium economy or maybe business. Most of the business class is taken by people who are given those seats by their companies, on actual business trips. First class, which is for the extreme rich, is today, synonymous with a private jet. This is why First class, if offered at all, is usually filled with upgraded business class passengers.
 
MMEPHX
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:52 am

I wish more airlines had premium economy options, on long haul, crammed into coach (I'm 6' 4") is very uncomfortable, I have no expectation of service in Y anymore so at least I'm not disappointed. I can't afford the thousands of dollars for J class but Y+ fares are often reasonable (to me), why don't more airlines, particularly US airlines on long haul, offer something between the mooing in cattle class and the champagne sipping in J?
 
hodja
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:59 am

Business class is primarily intended as an employee perk.

In most cases the objective benefits are totally out of proportion with the price differential.

One of the exceptions would be true "road warriors" flying > 200 days a year - for those types of jobs you'd really want to minimize all aspects of travel stress.

But for people flying long haul on business 4-5 times a year Y class is perfectly fine. Give people an extra day of relaxation at the destination if needed.
 
flyfromZRH
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:39 am

To all guys discussing ticket prices:

Obviously, what you have to pay as a private passenger for a Business Class ticket is not what most companies will pay. The discounts can be substantial.

And don't forget that you're not only buying a better seat, but also more flexibility (changing your flight at short notice), which can be very important if you're on a business trip and unexpected problems arise.
 
hodja
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:10 am



Quoting Flyfromzrh (Reply 34):
Obviously, what you have to pay as a private passenger for a Business Class ticket is not what most companies will pay. The discounts can be substantial.

True. Corporate travel aggrements can amount to 40% off the ticket price. However, that's still a very expensive ticket compared to discounted economy.

Quoting Flyfromzrh (Reply 34):
And don't forget that you're not only buying a better seat, but also more flexibility (changing your flight at short notice), which can be very important if you're on a business trip and unexpected problems arise.

Also true. However I would counter this with the fact that a business trip might have somewhat fixed timings anyway, so the flexibility isn't necessarily critical. Economy tickets can be rebooked too on many airlines.

Lastly if an unexpected change suddenly pops up, just throw away the non-flexible economy ticket and buy a biz ticket on the spot.
 
Jasondn
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:20 am

I personally try and make the best of both worlds. I try to fly premium economy when I fly to Europe. Around the Gulf, short flights, economy is fine. I only use 2 airlines though, Qatar for local flights and BA for long haul flights, like to the US. With the mileage programmes I check in through the First or Business Class counters and get invited to the lounge, but pay a minimal amount when compared to a full business class fare.

Inevitably I am upgraded alot due to my Gold status on both airlines and find that I dont have to worry too much about the company's bottom line at the end of the financial year.

I fly twice to three times a year to the US, every second month to Europe and about 2 - 3 times a month in the GCC. Twice a year I fly to South Africa as well!

My point to share on the pricing issue of business and first class!
 
sr176
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:49 am

The fact on business travel is, that nobody will ever give you an extra day of relaxation. Arriving on 6 am, giving either sales presentations, doing trouble shooting or what so ever and flying back in the evening, even of the same day, justifies always the extra amount of money spent on a C seat instead of a Y seat.
Companies which cut back on those spendings, risk that their representatives make a very bad impression on customers.
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:16 am



Quoting Flyfromzrh (Reply 34):
Business class is primarily intended as an employee perk.

Have to say, I can't agree and I wouldn't work for any company like that.

Travelling for business means by definition that you are making money for somebody. If not, you shouldn't be going. If you are making money for somebody then you should be compensated for having your real life - which to me means family and friends first, job second - interrupted and inconvenienced. It's harsh and I have done it. Not for a long long time though and never again.
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christao17
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:51 am



Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 29):
I can fly from NYC to South East Asia and back for $1,500 in coach, on a private trip. But it will be a 19hrs torture. So I'd much preferto get a seat in which I can sleep and not have neighbors too close to me. Too bad it costs 4,000 at least, if not $10,000 in business! If there was an option for $2,500 I would not hesitate a second.

That's where I find myself - don't want to spend quite as much as business class but do want more comfort than regular economy (and am willing to pay for it). I've found EVA Air to be a good value both for their premium economy as well as for their business class when traveling Southeast Asia to the US.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
mandala499
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RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:14 am

Economy Ticket + Hotel + Allowance = US$2k
MAY LOOK CHEAPER initially when you compare it with
Business Ticket = US$6k.

OK, let's go to beancounter mode... let's look at this particular case:
If the guy costs generates US$10,000 a day in revenues... and travels from Europe to Asia... takes a night flight, arrives here the next night due to time differences... You may argue there's not a benefit to fly him in business. But, he won't make that dinner meeting to kickstart the business trip... he'll go to sleep. So, a potential recovery of productivity at the end of the outbound leg is lost... maybe it's only worth 20% of is productivity, but that's US$2000 of lost potential revenue.

Then when he goes back, he takes the evening flight from Asia and arrives early morning in Europe. Can he do a full productive day at work as soon as he gets back? No... probably only 50% productive, so, you'll loose US$5000 of "lost revenue"... Total cost of lost productivity= US$7000... now the US$6k already looks cheaper.

There's also one thing, productivity on the road. On economy, he won't do much work, maybe only 10% of a day's productivity on the way to Asia... that's only a US$1000 recovery... still only a zero gain.

Now, if he goes on Business class, not only is he fresher, he can also do work on that outbound leg to prepare for the meetings or catch up with some outstanding tasks... if he can gain a 50% recovery in productivity on the trip going out, that's US$5000's worth of recovered productivity.

So, by doing that, you recover a total of that 50% of a day when he gets back, 50% of a day when he goes out... and maybe the 20% gain thanks to that dinner meeting he had as soon as he arrived... that's US$12,000 opportunity gain, a net opportunity gain of US$6000 by flying business.

By doing it in economy, you get zero gain at best.... in this case.

The FF miles he racked up on the trips, gives him a cheaper holiday, hence he can enjoy his R & R more and be fresher when he gets back from holidays... hey, that's more productivity for me the beancounter!

If I'm a multi-million dollar company, I send my VP to meet a company I want to make a deal with on the other side of the world, and I send him on economy, plus the 1 day at each end that he needs to recover on, I loose 2 days of his productivity... given a 5 day a week job, that's 8 - 10% of productivity lost in addition to the loss of productivity in transit.

I once had to fly in a consultant from Canada. Once he flew here on economy. We were to cover his hotel expenses here. He arrives here and needed 1 full day to recover... that's 1 hotel room down the drain for it. We also have to cover his travel allowance, from the time he reaches an airport in Asia to the time he reaches the hotel in my city. I pay him that plus have to give him a night's hotel for free?

I called for the company to send the guy on business class the next time. He arrived, took him to the hotel, told him to take a shower and we went straight into a meeting. That actually saved me a lot of money!

The same case goes when I have to travel somewhere. If my schedule is not tight, I'll go economy. If it's tight, I take business thanks. Can do work on the plane, arrive much fresher. And I don't have to spend a day when I return writing the damn report up... I do it on the plane. And before I go on the trip, I don't need to spend a day on making the presentation, I do it on the airplane... call the office on the plane to email me the stuff I forgot to bring with me... spend an hour at the hotel as soon as I arrive to patch up the presentation together, and after the shower, I'm good to go! Why?

The amount of money I can gain by the time saved is more than the savings I get on the ticket if I choose Economy... But, when the overall savings aren't good, I go economy. *grin*

And in those days, when cockpit visits or even jumpseat invitations were not scorned at, being in Biz helps a lot. *grin*

I kinda miss those days! *grin*

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
hodja
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 6:41 am

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:40 am



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 40):
If the guy costs generates US$10,000 a day in revenues...

But honestly, in a typical business class cabin how many people will be generating that kind of revenue on their particular trip? 15-20%?

Anyway, all I wish for would be a business class ticket that's proportionally priced. I'd have no problem paying say twice the price of an economy ticket.

However, a business class walk up fare on BA for a LON-NYC return is GBP4533 - that's 10x times the price of an economy ticket and just a plain con.
 
sr176
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 11:11 pm

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:46 am

Don't forget one thing, when we have to travel, no matter in which class, it can often be at short notice. What ticket do you get in Y at short notice? It may cost 50% to 75% of the ticket in C.
If we fly for business we do so often book - cancel - book - rebook - cancel again. We can not do that with the cheapest tickets anyway, or we would completely loose it.
 
mikoneill
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:34 am

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:21 am

Take this example: A business or wealthy traveller can afford to pay say $10k for a flight, but the economy ticket is only $1k. Therefore business class/first class is a way to persuade the business traveller to part with their money.

It's basic economics. Economy, Business Class and First Class are part of an airline's take on "product differentiation".

An airline has a commodity product (transport from A to B). Different customers have a different willingness (or ability) to pay, so the cheaper the price the more people who would be willing to fly (i.e. a downward sloping demand curve). Airlines are driven by a profit maximising motive. Therefore, the airline's goal is to get those passengers with a greater willingness to pay to do so. Product differentiation is one way to do this.

A wealthy person or business traveller is still an independant economic agent, and therefore may decide that the incremental cost of travelling in business or first is of insufficient economic value to them. Therefore the airlines need to design their products such that there are clear benefits for the extra money that they are willing to pay. Wealthy people can afford to fly First Class, but in order to extract the money from them, the airline needs to give them something back in return (at a lower incremental cost than the extra income). Business passengers typcially need to fly, and again should be willing to pay more than someone on vacation, therefore Business Class is one of the tools an airline uses to extract this value from the passenger.

Airlines have many other tools to push people to pay closer to their willingness, the main tool being timing. It is cheaper to fly in business in a flight booked 6 months in advance, with unflexible dates, than it is to fly in economy on a flexible ticket booked at the last minute.
 
peh
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:25 am

Don't get me started on Business Class. Only this week, my employer revoked Business Class travel for employees other than top executives. We've just opened an office eight hours away and I have to travel cattle-class and still be ready for work the next day.

I found myself in an embarrassing situation a few days later when a "top executive" and I were heading overseas to the same destination, on the same day, on the same flight to do essentially the same job. I walked straight passed them in business class on my way to economy.

It has little to do with "business" and more to do with "class"!
Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
 
maddog888
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:24 am

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:52 am



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 40):

Whilst I fully agree with your logic, I do wonder why it is then that on the infrequent times I do fly business, I don't see many if any heads in laptops or talking quietly into recorders. Maybe reading those newspapers and books is good productivity but I somehow doubt it. You are obviously one of the 10% but I would have to agree with BAFLYER that 90% do little or no work on the plane unless travelling with the boss of course  Wink . I also find that how much it takes out of you depends on which direction you are travelling. east-west takes a lot less out of me than west-east.

My 2c is that for me whilst J is nice, BA's WT+ meets my needs superbly.

J
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:16 pm

Guys,
I was putting an argument when there are obvious tangible benefits to it.

The intangibles... well it's harder to argue. A lot of the companies here have a travel policy of "flights > hrs = Business Class, except when flying with a client."

The other thing is, how much revenue are you going to generate out of the trip? Is the cost justifiable.

And last minute Y, ie: full Y on intl can be as much as the business class fare...

And as to working on the plane, if it's a short flight, I'd rather save the money and go economy... I can churn away on my laptop in economy anyways, but if it's a long flight, no thanks... if it's economy, it's the notepad or the eyepad... no laptops.

However, yes, not many use the time on the plane to work away... perhaps airlines should have for their corporate customers video footage of their road warriors when travelling on business! LOL!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
mats
Posts: 561
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:20 pm

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:05 pm

It's important to note that few people pay the published business class fare. North Atlantic business is often listed as $5,000 to $8,000 round trip, but I think the average fare is actually $2,500 to $3,000.

I often take advantage of discounted business class fares between $1,500 and $2,500 to Europe, South America, Hawaii, and the Middle East. I got back yesterday from Paris, and I'm going to Honolulu in a few weeks--both tickets were about $1,600 in World Business Class. It's an extra $700-$800 that I'm more than willing to pay. It makes for a much less stressful and more relaxed journey. Would I pay more than $3,000? NEVER.

The Paris trip was only two nights. It would have been a killer in economy class, but it was totally bearable in business. I had minimal jetlag.

The rise of discounted business class has been great. I've used it on Continental, Delta, El Al, and now Northwest. The airlines fill a business seat with a revenue passenger instead of an upgrade, and I can afford to travel in style. And I earn a lot of additional miles, which I can use for future premium class travel.
 
Indy
Posts: 4953
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Who Is Business Class Intended For?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:31 pm



Quoting Peh (Reply 44):
I found myself in an embarrassing situation a few days later when a "top executive" and I were heading overseas to the same destination, on the same day, on the same flight to do essentially the same job. I walked straight passed them in business class on my way to economy.

That would kind of piss me off. My attitude is that if coach is good enough for me then it is good enough for you. It is a different story if he/she chooses to pay the difference out of pocket and you flew economy. But that doesn't sound like it was the case. I personally will fly business class when possible but I will also pay for it out of my own pocket. The only time I don't shoot for it is when someone else is picking up the tab (it would be rude to ask) and when I'm doing a mileage run when the goal is to get as many miles as possible for the least amount of money.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.

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