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jfk787nyc
Posts: 479
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:34 am



Quoting Danny (Reply 17):
Danny From Ireland, joined Apr 2002, 2951 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted Mon Nov 26 2007 11:54:42 your local time (18 hours 24 minutes 39 secs ago) and read 5644 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
Both Europe and the United States have well run and poorly run airline companies.

Show me a US airline making over a billion in a quarter (like AF recently).

But my point was different: EK does no harm at present to major European carriers and it will stay like that for a couple of years. Should they pose a serious threat they will hear from eurocrat regulators.

Airfrance-KLM are two airlines that are in a 1-ONE Airline Country. 2- AF-KLM & Lufthansa is making a killing on the Euro exchange. The airlines a pricing 1-1 with no currency conversion between dollar - euro. Plus they raised there pricing because OIL went up. Meanwhile in Europe OIL keeps on going down. if a barrel of OIL is $100 per barrel that is only 52 EURO.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:41 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 49):

Uh, I've got the "market reality" just fine. I was talking about competition from low-cost competitors, of which EK is certainly not one. Sure, LH, for example, faces competition to BLR from EK, but that doesn't erode their yields that much compared with the low-cost carriers that operate on shorter routes. Given the choice, I'm sure LH would much rather be "competing" with EK than Ryanai

compared to LH.EK is a low cost operator. Not to mention that they squeeze more than 400 people in one version of their 77W, they have a far better cost base than LH can everr achieve. Besides, their owners provide the infrastructuire as needed,m when needed. I mentioned that already.

Ryanair is not a competitor of LH at all, they cater for a completely different market, fly from remote airports and provide an inferrior product than LH.

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 47):
One should not forget that EK currently has the right conduct as many flights as they wish into Germany plus they have 5th freedom rights. The only restriction they face is that they are (currently) limited to four airports to fly to.

yes, that has to be mentioned, to be fair. No one prohibits EK to pick up their high yield passengers in the STR region with a Maybach for F and S class for C and drive them straight to FRA. EK has all the freedom to market their services here. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:57 pm

PanHAM: LH is not competing with Ryanair ? I'm not so sure about that. I can remember the times a few years ago, where Lufthansa raised many public criticism on Ryanair , but smart as Ryanair is they used this for free advertisement.
At least for the UK market there is a lot of research among travellers, their income, their preferred airline etc. You will be irritated reading that Ryanair and Easyjet has many wealthy passengers which before used Lufthansa and that a high percentage of this passengers have high incomes and are business travellers.

Only due to pricing systematic you can see also low yield pax on FR flights which before used bus or trains, but that is part of a low fares airline.

The only thing what now happens is that Lufthansa try to get support from government to solve their cost problems because the european short haul market they lost already and now also the lucrative long hauls dilute.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:16 pm



Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 52):

The only thing what now happens is that Lufthansa try to get support from government to solve their cost problems because the european short haul market they lost already and now also the lucrative long hauls dilute.

we can argue about the competition FR gives to LH but LH is far from having lost the European short haul market. Check their timetable. Possible that medium and high income people use FR, we did that once to attend a concert in Bournemouth. We would certainly not have done that without the then direct flight HHN-BOH. Personally, I prefer the 109€ ticket LH offers over any 0,00 or 10,00€ fare by FR. But that's not the topic here.

I had to smile when I read "that Lufthansa tries to get support from the Government to solve their cost problem"., Well, OK, you might consult a frog when you want to dry up a swamp. I could not imagione of any advice the Givernment can give a private company to solve a cost problem. Vice Versa, yes, Zillions of advices but they don't listen., as we all know. LH has done a damn good job to manage their costs and the government will not give a dry fartto assist in any way to get costs cut.

The streamlining of the European ATC is in the talks since decades and it might get some attention now because of environmental issues. Necessary infrastructure talkes ages and once it in the planning, they put up other ridiculous hurdles like night curfews in FRA. How can a company work efficiently with handycaps like that?

LH has proven that they are competetive, otherwise they could not be that successful. If there is any helkp the government can provide, it would be not to put up new stepping stones all the time.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
jamincan
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:38 pm

I suspect that for Dubai, Emirates is only one piece in the puzzle. In the larger economic picture, they are trying to reposition Dubai as an international hub of business, travel, leisure etc. Now that they have boatloads of cash, they are investing it toward creating that hub and Emirates is one tool in that strategy. Ultimately, I don't think they would care if another international airline started hubbing in Dubai and giving Emirates a run for their money because it would still move them closer to their goal of making Dubai a global hub city. So far it seems that they've succeeded.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:12 pm

EK is a VERY important piece in that puzzle to position Dubai as a Hongkong of the Middle East. The expansion which is taking place there is, however, not only with the Sheikh's money. They are a safe heaven for many rich people from neighbouring countries. It is said that alone rich Iranian business men (and the Mullah's themselves of course) bunker some 300 Billion US$ in the Emirates.

That money is put at worlk there and provides a superb environment for all kind of expansion. Of course LH and anyone else could start an airline hubbing out of JXB. Most welcome, especially since you need a local sponsor to do that and his job would be to cash his monthly check.

That gives another light on the different environments LH and EK are based in. Anybody can come to Germany and open a business, no local sponsors needed. I'd be a very rich man, with alöl my connections I jhave. if Germany would require that.

Whatever side we look at it, it always comes down to what Mr. Mayrhuber has meant in the interview.

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
jacobin777
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:46 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 44):
I would expect to hear Air France and British Airways add their voice to his at some point. I would suspect that their initial target in Europe would be for the premium paying passenger, but from what I understand their coach product is pretty nice and well priced for the "value conscious" traveler.

...given the amount of weekly frequencies EK has to London alone (between 90-100), I'm surprised not to hear BA...but then again, after NYC, Dubai is the 2nd most traveled city from London (with Chicago in 3rd)...

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 44):
They also own a chunk of EADS

3.12% to be exact... Wink

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 2):
EK, QR or EY have lower fuel charges

....maybe you have some proof for this?

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 45):

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 2):
EK, QR or EY have lower fuel charges

Rubbish! Please do research first before making inaccurate comments.

 checkmark 

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 51):
compared to LH.EK is a low cost operator. Not to mention that they squeeze more than 400 people in one version of their 77W, they have a far better cost base than LH can everr achieve.

..its not EK's fault nor problem they "squeeze" 400 on their B77W's....maybe LH should have ordered the B77W instead of A346's.. stirthepot ..

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 51):

Ryanair is not a competitor of LH at all, they cater for a completely different market, fly from remote airports and provide an inferrior product than LH.

...with Ryan Air being one of the largest carriers in continental Europe, they are a force to be reckoned with regardless...it doesn't matter if they fly to "remote" airports and provide inferiour services than LH.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
avek00
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:21 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 33):
The reason EU carriers tend to be more profitable than US carriers is that US aviation is absolutely cut throat. The EU tends to be more dominated by national "flag carriers", with each EU nation generally having their own (although this may be about to end with the buyout of Swiss and now the potential buyouts of Iberia and Alitalia).

Exactly. With the sole exception of the United Kingdom, each major EU air market has exactly ONE major carrier that can reasonably cater to the premium traffic flows necessary to maintain a viable longhaul network, and that ONE major carrier frequently enjoys substantial structural barriers that prevent any serious homegrown competition.

On the US side, there are at least six airlines that can go head-to-head for premium pax (AA, DL, UA, CO, NW, and US) in any long-haul market at-will. Even with the significantly lower (roughly 30%!) costs of US airline labor vs. European airline labor -- as an aside, this is a situation that EUROPEAN airline managers want to fix by acquiring US carriers and using them to run longhaul services for the Europeans instead --- US carriers end up with thinner margins due to the fierce competition.
Live life to the fullest.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:59 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 56):
ts not EK's fault nor problem they "squeeze" 400 on their B77W's....maybe LH should have ordered the B77W instead of A346'

don't put words in my mouth which I haven't said. I just made a statement that EK, compared with LH is a low cost carrier. The simple fact that LH is some 30/35 years older makes that statement valid. We both don't decide the fleet purchases of either EK or LH and LH had a long standing preference for 4 engines. Even oif they had bought the 77W, I am sure that they would not squeeze 430+ pax inside. But that is neither someones fault nor is it a problem. It is a mere fact.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 56):

...with Ryan Air being one of the largest carriers in continental Europe, they are a force to be reckoned with regardless...it doesn't matter if they fly to "remote" airports and provide inferiour services than LH.

if you follow what happens on this side of the pond, than you will find that LH reacts to Air Berlin and not really to Ryan Air. LH does not match their fares and does not need to do so. But again, I don't want to stray off topic.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 57):
Exactly. With the sole exception of the United Kingdom, each major EU air market has exactly ONE major carrier that can reasonably cater to the premium traffic flows necessary to maintain a viable longhaul network, and that ONE major carrier frequently enjoys substantial structural barriers that prevent any serious homegrown competitio

Wrong in several ways. All European carriers fish in their neighbours ponds for 6th freedom traffic since ages. Except for the direct services, even from FRA to the US, I have a choice of SK, KL, BA, AF, LX, OS . Plus LH which is competing with CO, UA, AA, US, DL and NW. Plus, a German compoetitor for LH is emerging on the long haul sector, Air Berlin. Forgot AC.

Once the single market ends restrictions by directing the responsibility of traffic rights negotiations with third countries to the EU commission, it will be parity between the EU and the US

The fact that US carriers have 30% less costs is a big advantage for them-
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Farnborough24
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:06 pm

Well this 'one long haul carrier in virtually all European countries' situation is surely set to change soon, what with the opening up of the transatlantic market. (Just feel I ought to briefly point out also that the population of the US is 5 times that of the UK, and hence the US should be able to support more airlines than the UK). We're could well now see BA operating long haul out of France, LH operating from Heathrow etc. I have always assumed that sooner or later the huge profits airlines such as BA have been making (over a billion dollars of profit last year) would end, and that is happening. What I also think, however, is that the EK story will not go on as it is to a happy conclusion-sooner or later I think they're going to start to feel the pinch of having to find ways of filling the 9 million new planes they have arriving next week. This is not to say I don't think they'll remain an important, large and successful airline with a strong product-just I think they'll realise they've grown a little too fast, be forced to downsize, and the US/European carriers wising up and improving their products will balance out EK's huge current advantage when it comes to Europe-SE Asia/Australasia. Also, their lack of O and D traffic will surely hurt them eventually-with the advent of planes like the 787, and even better designs along those lines in years to come, the need to connect will not disappear, but it will certainly become significantly smaller. Airlines like EK can do well in the high density routes, requiring all of those A380s they will have, but the European/US carriers will become able to operate point to point services taking advantage of their O&D markets. Example-I want to travel from Istanbul to Sydney. I could connect through Dubai, getting on a plane at Dubai to Sydney full of people connecting from smaller markets. EK will make money from this. I live in London and want to go to Sydney-sooner or later direct operations will become possible, so I'll get on my non-stop BA flight, and BA will make money. Everyone is happy. Just BA make a bit less than they were used to, but a bit more competition can't be a bad thing.
My Saab 9000-the chav eater!
 
jacobin777
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:14 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 58):

don't put words in my mouth which I haven't said

 redflag ...you indeed made that comment and my comment was that because EK has the B77W instead of the A346/A333, they can put 10 across which means their CASM will probably be lower....as you said, "its just a statement"

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 58):

if you follow what happens on this side of the pond, than you will find that LH reacts to Air Berlin and not really to Ryan Air. LH does not match their fares and does not need to do so. But again, I don't want to stray off topic.

..see below....

....

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 52):
PanHAM: LH is not competing with Ryanair ? I'm not so sure about that. I can remember the times a few years ago, where Lufthansa raised many public criticism on Ryanair , but smart as Ryanair is they used this for free advertisement.

...I agree... checkmark 

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 58):
LH had a long standing preference for 4 engines.

..that's just absurd...they were one of the first carriers to fly the A300's and A310's and have a large fleet of A330's....
"Up the Irons!"
 
avek00
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:36 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 58):
Wrong in several ways. All European carriers fish in their neighbours ponds for 6th freedom traffic since ages.

Sure, but there's only ONE big fisherman per European pond. In the USA, OTOH, virtually every major "pond" has mutiple USA-based players competing directly (UA vs. AA in Chicago, DL vs. CO vs. AA in New York, AA vs. UA (and soon, DL) in Los Angeles, etc.)

The new Open Skies deal won't change this reality much on the European side, because various constraints operate to effectively preclude an upstart from launching a major long-haul operation from another major market. Sure, continental carriers will move in to mooch the UK market, but the UK market is already a partial exception to the rule because it has two big fishermenm, and the constraints present at Heathrow and Gatwick serve as further insulation.

Germany will be interesting to watch, but even there, LH is *very* well protected from new, direct competition at its FRA and MUC long-haul fortresses.
Live life to the fullest.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:38 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 60):

..that's just absurd...they were one of the first carriers to fly the A300's and A310's and have a large fleet of A330'

check the dates when they started using the 330s. The A300 are used mainly short haul. with an exception of a relatively short periodm when A300s were used to BOS and NYC within rather short ETOPS over water routes.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 60):

redflag ...you indeed made that comment

and where did I say anything about "fault" or "problem"?

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 61):

Sure, but there's only ONE big fisherman per European pond. In the USA, OTOH, virtually every major "pond" has mutiple USA-based players competing directly (UA vs. AA in Chicago, DL vs. CO vs. AA in New York, AA vs. UA (and soon, DL) in Los Angeles, etc.)

has been said already, Europe is one single pond. Very few markets and even fewer routes in the US have direct competition between 2 US based carriers. I would not even put EWR and JFK into the same basket. I wonder who will "protect" - as you say - LH.once the EU negotiates traffic rights. Brussels overrides Berlin in many ways already and this will be just another case.

LH is doing a good job to be competetive and draw customers as well as keep them.. They don't need help actually, but they don't need stepping stones either.

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:36 pm

Jacobin777: I think PanAm mean that Lufthansa made a few years back advertisment that they only fly with four engines overseas. Of course today we know that also this statement was absurd.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:02 pm



Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 63):
Jacobin777: I think PanAm mean that Lufthansa made a few years back advertisment that they only fly with four engines overseas. Of course today we know that also this statement was absurd

yes, difficult to get that message across to some people. Slight correction, four was not essentially required, LH had 3-holers. I believe that still today the idea of sending a T7 from Australia to the US West Coast gives the creeps to some at LH. Times will change and they will eventually have A350s and/or 787s across the Atlantoc and other waters.


While I'm at it - LH and protection - it is funny to hear that from fellow a.netters flying the stars and stripes behind their names. Both UPS and FX enjoy full traffic rights between Europe and to and from the Middle/Far East. Not by way of the US but direct. . And I don't even want to mention the beyond rights NW and UA have - and exercise in Asia, or the stil existing rights DL and UA have in Europe.

Nothing LH can enjoy to and from the US.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
sllevin
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:03 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
The open skies agreement still gives US carriers a better deal than European carriers, at least for some time.

Ah, yes, the "better deal" being that in exchange for having to BUY slots at Heathrow, the European airlines can now operate flights from any point in Europe to the US -- including flights from Heathrow using the slots they already inheirited in many cases.

Some great deal for the US indeed. More like a giant gift to European operators.

Steve
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:55 pm



Quoting Sllevin (Reply 65):

Ah, yes, the "better deal" being that in exchange for having

The European Union has formed a single market several years ago. What you believe is a "giant gift" to European operators is simply the transition of the airline industry (after more or less all other industries have already) into this single market. Meaning, any European airline can now fly to any destination in the US, like any US airline can fly to any destination in Europe.

The slight difference is, the US carriers can do that since 1945. About time us Europeans catch up on equal terms- excepüt that the still have not the beyond rights from the US.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
avek00
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
Europe is one single pond.

Not at all true by any stretch or perversion of the imagination.

The French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, Swedish, and Danish air markets are, even in the present time, still highly discrete air markets with ONE major airline per market commanding a lion's share of the long-haul traffic. In fact, if your assertion was true, Open Skies with the USA would not have been a necessary or even laudable objective, as continental EU carriers should be able to profitably tap into any traffic flows at-will within existing networks and constraints. The truth is that the continental EU carriers can do such poaching only to a modest extent at best -- for instance, the vast majority of French travelers -- from leisure types to full-fare First road warriors--- are simply not going to consider Iberia or Lufthansa for their next trip to the United States, even if the schedules are competitive to those of Air France.

[Edited 2007-11-27 14:03:42]
Live life to the fullest.
 
EI564
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:57 am



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 67):
The truth is that the continental EU carriers can do such poaching only to a modest extent at best -- for instance, the vast majority of French travelers -- from leisure types to full-fare First road warriors--- are simply not going to consider Iberia or Lufthansa for their next trip to the United States, even if the schedules are competitive to those of Air France.

Well, times are a changing.  Smile You are right as such because only the major European carrier flying from Madrid to the US was Iberia, from Paris to the US was Air France etc. But now we have AF flying from LHR to LAX. BA looking at doing something similar etc.

And of course, from the smaller cities, people are probably as happy to fly from HAM-FRA-LAX as HAM-AMS-LAX. Or at least, getting that way. Its market reality that the divisions are crumbling. tThe old bilaterals were an artiface from a different age.

The US carriers may have paid to get access to LHR. But its also allowed AF and DL to grow closer together. I'm not sure how disadvantage those US airlines were really. They definitely think it was worth it anyhow.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:22 am



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 2):
To me this is an unfair competition and Europeans are gonna lose this battle. EK, QR or EY have lower fuel charges, a lesser cost base and do not pay their crews European salaries.

= I never understand this logic. Why is it "unfair competition"? Its their comparative advantage. Should I scream that Germany makes good cars because they have better R&D, better manufacturing know-how, etc.? If country X can do something better and cheaper, let them! No one told you to pay inflated salaries at the same place ...

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:26 am



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 2):
For my recent trip to Kuwait I was given the choice between BA, QR or EK. I chose BA although it was not the cheapest. I chose BA cause the timings were better for me and also because I wanted to fly European. Many other colleagues would have chosen QR or EK.

= Would you have made the same decision if you were paying out of your own pocket? ...

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
jamincan
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:52 am



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 67):

The French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, Swedish, and Danish air markets are, even in the present time, still highly discrete air markets with ONE major airline per market commanding a lion's share of the long-haul traffic. In fact, if your assertion was true, Open Skies with the USA would not have been a necessary or even laudable objective, as continental EU carriers should be able to profitably tap into any traffic flows at-will within existing networks and constraints. The truth is that the continental EU carriers can do such poaching only to a modest extent at best -- for instance, the vast majority of French travelers -- from leisure types to full-fare First road warriors--- are simply not going to consider Iberia or Lufthansa for their next trip to the United States, even if the schedules are competitive to those of Air France.

To a certain extent, that is also true for the US. Most markets are heavily dominated by one carrier or another. In some cases, several. I suspect that Americans are probably less loyal to the local major and so are more prepared to move through another hub; however, you can't really criticize AF for operating most of its transatlantic flights out of CDG any more than you can criticize Continental for doing the same out of EWR. The major difference would be that US carriers are so compartmentalized. Most have hubs across the country, whereas history has confined most EU carriers to a single country until recently. AF and LH seem to be rapidly moving beyond that trend though.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:57 am



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 67):

Not at all true by any stretch or perversion of the imagination.

has been answered by Jamincan alreadym and he is right. The US has to accept and more important - has to realize that it is no longer dealing with separate nations in Europe but with one single political block. There are indeed few hubs that have enough business to warrant 2 carriers. CHI is one, but that is owed more to the geographic location than to the O&D market. You will see in the not so far future carriers having their hubs outside their "home"turf.

Anyway - this thread is fading out a bit and I just want to draw your attention on a few things - LH has a market share in Germany of less than 40%. LH has always had strong and fierce competition. Due to WWII Germany regained partialsovereignty opnly in 1955 and only then, an airline could start flying again. Before that, German domestic tgraffic was handled by SR, KL, SK, BA etc. . When I started in this business, I saw Seaboard C46s on the tarmac in Hamburg, maing feeder flights to FRA with full local traffic rights. LH has managed to make the best out of its rich home market, but with a market share of less than 40% one can hardly speak of over protection.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 am

Back to the topic, IMO Mayrhuber doesn't refer so much to competition per se, but to the fact that EK is effectively a state airline with virtually unlimited funds and full support by the authorities of Abu Dabi, since the owner of EK is at the same time the absolutist monarch of Abu Dabi, has the oil revenue at his disposal to subsidise EK and has full power over the licencing authority of his country. Whatever he orders will be carried out.
He also has full control over labour laws in Dubai and has full command of the police forces and the justice apparatus to enforce them (e.g. in case of strikes).
This means he can undercut ANY competition, unless it comes from a similar state owned airline.
Mayrhuber, on the other hand has to play with the rules given to him. He operates out of a democratic country with existing labour laws, building laws etc..
This is by no means an even playing field. Imagine a government owned Chinese airline would try to force it's way into the American market, also using the whole capital of a country to eliminate competition.

Jan

[Edited 2007-11-27 23:47:42]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
columba
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:41 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 60):
LH had a long standing preference for 4 engines.

..that's just absurd...they were one of the first carriers to fly the A300's and A310's and have a large fleet of A330's....

They used the A300/A310s mainly on domestic and European flights and on a very few transatlantic flights they used the A313s/A306s. Their main longhaul fleet consisted of three and four engines aircraft for decades. The A330s came to LH at a very late time. As a 747-400 replacement they evaluated the 777-300ER against the 747-8I and decided in favor for the bigger quad.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
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RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 73):
Back to the topic, IMO Mayrhuber doesn't refer so much to competition per se, but to the fact that EK is effectively a state airline with virtually unlimited funds and full support by the authorities of Abu Dabi, since the owner of EK is at the same time the absolutist monarch of Abu Dabi, has the oil revenue at his disposal to subsidise EK and has full power over the licencing authority of his country. Whatever he orders will be carried out.
He also has full control over labour laws in Dubai and has full command of the police forces and the justice apparatus to enforce them (e.g. in case of strikes).
This means he can undercut ANY competition, unless it comes from a similar state owned airline.
Mayrhuber, on the other hand has to play with the rules given to him. He operates out of a democratic country with existing labour laws, building laws etc..
This is by no means an even playing field. Imagine a government owned Chinese airline would try to force it's way into the American market, also using the whole capital of a country to eliminate competition.

Jan

= Jan, perhaps lost in your propaganda is that the owner of EK are the authorities of Dubai, which has no oil. Abudhabi owns Etihad.

National "champions" happen ALL the time in Europe. Come on. Remember the outcry when Mittal wanted to take over Arcelor.

Cheers,
A.

PS: OMG, I am "defending" EK. This is new!

[Edited 2007-11-28 07:10:32]
Live, and let live.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 74):
As a 747-400 replacement they evaluated the 777-300ER against the 747-8I and decided in favor for the bigger quad.

...Why introduce a brand new airplane into the fleet when the already have an existing series in the plane? Not to mention, their B748I would be configured with more seats than their B77W's would be if they chose that particular route...

Quoting Columba (Reply 74):
hey used the A300/A310s mainly on domestic and European flights



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):

check the dates when they started using the 330s. The A300 are used mainly short haul. with an exception of a relatively short periodm when A300s were used to BOS and NYC within rather short ETOPS over water routes.

..my point was that LH doesn't have an inherent "preference" for planes because it either has two or four engines. They pick the planes which best suit their fleet via costs, routes, compatibility, m/x, etc.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
I believe that still today the idea of sending a T7 from Australia to the US West Coast gives the creeps to some at LH.

...twins have been proved to be more than reliable. Why would a sophisticated carrier such as LH have the "creeps"?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 63):
Jacobin777: I think PanAm mean that Lufthansa made a few years back advertisment that they only fly with four engines overseas. Of course today we know that also this statement was absurd

yes, difficult to get that message across to some people.

...yes, some of us are just to ignorant to understand the truth.. sarcastic 
"Up the Irons!"
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:30 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 76):

...twins have been proved to be more than reliable. Why would a sophisticated carrier such as LH have the "creeps"?

Columba has explained it to you and I did not ask him to assist. Why can't you simply take it that an airline has a different opinion than the majority of the rest?

I have said that eventually, when they switch to the A350/B787 replacing 343 and 346s, a larger portion of the long haul fleet will be 2 engine. That still will leave LH with a large quad fleet, with a combined order for 45 A380/748is and another 30 options.

It is a known fact that LH prefers quads over twins., why do you have to make a personal issue out of it?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1790
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:57 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 70):
= Would you have made the same decision if you were paying out of your own pocket?

Yes I would have done, the difference between BA's price and EK was only 50 euros more expensive for BA. I would still have chosen BA.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:21 pm



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 78):

Yes I would have done, the difference between BA's price and EK was only 50 euros more expensive for BA. I would still have chosen BA.

= Good for you then. I am assuming you dont have FFP miles with BA as that would render the discussion mute.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:48 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 75):
= Jan, perhaps lost in your propaganda is that the owner of EK are the authorities of Dubai, which has no oil. Abudhabi owns Etihad.

Still, they have the whole country's revenue at their disposal and no problems with the laws, since the owner MAKES the laws.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:32 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Coming from a company like LH-a true global player- this attitude is somewhat irritating,speciufically when EK helps to maintain thousands of jobs in Europe with Airbus through un unprecedented amount of orders.

And don't forget that LH has a virtual monopoly at FRA and MUC. EK is trying to open up new airports but of course LH resists, because this would open lots of competition that they fairly or unfairly don't have now.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 23):
So please don't start comparing "poorly run European airlines" by limiting yourself to AZ and OA... You insult our intelligence!

I think he was making a general statement that there are good and bad airlines on each side of the pond; you might be over reacting....

Quoting Qazar (Reply 25):
Lufthansa has always been an airline who valued healthy competition and strived on it.

Here's where I think you're smoking something. Lufthansa has never had any real competition to and from the largest ecomony in Europe (and top-5 in the world if I remember correctly.)

Quoting Qazar (Reply 25):
This interview clearly quotes LH boss saying that infrastructure has to be improved and leeway must be given to allow that to happen - nothing about keeping Emirates out!

Here's the deal. If the infrastructure is improved in Germany, that will help EK more than LH because they'll get lots of more slots.

I think he is mainly whining about the loss of his airline's monopoly.  yes 

iwok
 
columba
Posts: 5238
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:37 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 76):
Why introduce a brand new airplane into the fleet when the already have an existing series in the plane?

Why is LH so far the only airline that did so while other airlines have replaced their 747-400s with 777-300ERs ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:47 am

MD11Engineer: Believe it or not, but behind the curtains also Lufthansa have a lot of power to our leaders. Please have a look at the airports Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt etc. where Lufthansa have dedicated terminals. Who paid this facilities for exclusive use ? Right, if they use something with exclusivity status they also should pay all the costs to operate such facility and not just parts of it and they shall also pay the costs associated with building it.

Who is blocking in Frankfurt and Munich all important slots with some small regional aircrafts ?

The comment what other raised here in the Forum, that Emirates get fuel for free is absolutely not true.
May be they get preferred conditions at their main base because of the huge quantity they agreed to take.

The balance sheet of Emirates is audited by one of the largest auditing firms and I think if something would be not correct it would be mentioned in the notes.

Fuel have a international marketplace and a more or less public price. Why should the supplier of fuel give it away for free or at great discount if they can sell it easyly to others ?


It makes no sense !
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
Fly2CHC
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:19 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 80):
Still, they have the whole country's revenue at their disposal and no problems with the laws, since the owner MAKES the laws.

It would help if people did some research before posting such half-educated representations.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:22 am



Quoting Iwok (Reply 81):

Here's where I think you're smoking something. Lufthansa has never had any real competition to and from the largest ecomony in Europe (and top-5 in the world if I remember correctl

I quit smoking 25 years ago. LH started out with a handful of Convairs in 1955 in a domestic market which was served by airlines from all Europe + the USA. They made their way to the top in about 50 years in a very competetive environment. But I mentioned that before., no reason to repeat. Their market share is less than 40%, they do have together with Star Alliance, 70% of the slots in FRA, but look at the slots percentage NWA has in MSP, just to mention one. Germany is a polycentric country, man people go via CDG or AMS or where ever to their overseas destination, increasingly more via DXB.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 83):
MD11Engineer: Believe it or not, but behind the curtains also Lufthansa have a lot of power to our leaders. Please have a look at the airports Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt etc. where Lufthansa have dedicated terminals. Who paid this facilities for exclusive use ? Right, if they use something with exclusivity status they also should pay all the costs to operate such facility and not just parts of it and they shall also pay the costs associated with buildin

LH has a dedicated terminal in MUC which it shares with its *Alliance partners. The terminal is jointly financed by Flughafen Muenchen and Lufthansa.

In FRA, LH has no dedicated terminbal and it pays for the space it uses. FRAPORT is a listed company and they make profits. In other words, LH pays for the services it gets.


.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:41 am

PanHam: Could you please name the source, where you found the information that Lufthansa contributed to the costs associated with the exclusively used terminal in Munich ? I can not find any information about it in any their financial reports of the past 3 years. The only information I could find, is that Lufthansa owns the majority of the company who de-ice and push back aircrafts in Munich airport.So either pay Lufthansa to de-ice your plane or sit at the ground !!

By the way, several airlines are in the european court against Lufthansa and the Munich airport subsidies.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:02 am

That does not give much information

http://www.munich-airport.de/DE/Area...r/Beteiligungen/FM_Immo/index.html

but it has been widely publicised at the time when the Terminal was build, that FMG and LH had a joint venture and split the cost/financing..It was a very innovatove concept and first in Europe.

Check the annual report for MARDU, MUSA and QUINTO all based in Gruenwald near Munich, they would be the prime suspects.

Haven't got the time right now to check that but I am sure that other friends here can confirm that as well.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
dazeflight
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:26 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):

The other major difference is that for virtually every major legacy carrier in Europe - BA, AF, KL, LH, etc. - their international business makes up a substantial proportion (in most cases the majority) of their business. That is critical to any comparison. As others have said, the U.S. legacies face cutthroat competition across virtually 100% of their domestic networks, which in turn make up the majority of almost every major U.S. airline's business. In Europe, the national carriers don't face nearly as much low-cost competition on most of their network, as most of their network is to places that low-cost carriers have not (yet, at least) dared to tread: I'm talking the Middle East, Sub-Saharan Africa, India, etc.

In other words, it's a lot easier to make money when you are carting around 747 loads worth of high-paying customers to Bangalore where there is virtually no competition, as compared with hauling 737s to, say, Las Vegas, where loads are high but yields are virtually non-existent because of competition.

May I ask where you've got your 80s knowledge from? A look at todays Europe might help in evaluating the competition on intra-european routes a little more realistic.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:33 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 75):
= Jan, perhaps lost in your propaganda is that the owner of EK are the authorities of Dubai, which has no oil. Abudhabi owns Etihad.

Are you trying to fool us? Dubai has the second largest reserves of the VAE, which is the 9th largest oil production country. Just because Dubai does not rely heavily on oil anymore does not mena they have none.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:06 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 80):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 75):
= Jan, perhaps lost in your propaganda is that the owner of EK are the authorities of Dubai, which has no oil. Abudhabi owns Etihad.


Still, they have the whole country's revenue at their disposal and no problems with the laws, since the owner MAKES the laws.

Jan

= Thats it - its actually a conspiracy by the entire Emirate republic against LH.

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 89):
Are you trying to fool us? Dubai has the second largest reserves of the VAE, which is the 9th largest oil production country. Just because Dubai does not rely heavily on oil anymore does not mena they have none.

= Please provide statistics to support your claim. Abudhabi has 95% of all proven oil reserves in the UAE. Dubai might be second - but their 5% of oil reserves is insignificant.

I never understood economic nationalism.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:14 pm



Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 89):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 75):
= Jan, perhaps lost in your propaganda is that the owner of EK are the authorities of Dubai, which has no oil. Abudhabi owns Etihad.

Are you trying to fool us? Dubai has the second largest reserves of the VAE, which is the 9th largest oil production country. Just because Dubai does not rely heavily on oil anymore does not mena they have none.

= P.S.: I encourage you to read the Dubai briefing of the Economist for a snapshot of the Dubai economy - http://www.economist.com/cities/find...m?CITY_ID=DUB&FOLDER=Facts-History

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:06 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 77):
It is a known fact that LH prefers quads over twins., why do you have to make a personal issue out of it?

...I'm not, I felt there was something questionable in your comments and I attempted to point them out...its really simple as that...there was nothing "personal"  no 

Quoting Columba (Reply 82):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 76):
Why introduce a brand new airplane into the fleet when the already have an existing series in the plane?

Why is LH so far the only airline that did so while other airlines have replaced their 747-400s with 777-300ERs ?

.....as I mentioned above, cost, m/x, aircraft size....

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 83):

The balance sheet of Emirates is audited by one of the largest auditing firms and I think if something would be not correct it would be mentioned in the notes.

 checkmark 

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 83):
Fuel have a international marketplace and a more or less public price. Why should the supplier of fuel give it away for free or at great discount if they can sell it easyly to others ?

 checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 72):
LH has managed to make the best out of its rich home market, but with a market share of less than 40% one can hardly speak of over protection.

Lufthansa has had to deal with extensive home-country competition on DOMESTIC routes for years, this is true. But Germany is soon to become only the second major EU nation to have two large home-country carriers operating significant numbers of LONGHAUL flights in direct competition with each other.


The USA legacy carriers have been much ballyhooed over the past few years, but I dare say that, once Open Skies and related activities shake out, the European legacies won't look very pretty either -- they're the costliest airlines on the planet to run, they have comparatively limited longhaul fleet flexibility, large-scale organic growth opportunities are generally not a viable option, and their revenue streams are highly dependent on the very markets most vulnerable to competition by new entrants and revitalized competitors under bilateral market liberalization.

[Edited 2007-11-29 08:18:21]
Live life to the fullest.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:21 pm



Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 89):

Are you trying to fool us? Dubai has the second largest reserves of the VAE, which is the 9th largest oil production country. Just because Dubai does not rely heavily on oil anymore does not mena they have none.

forget about the oil. EK was given a start capital and left alone with that. The story is known and they don't lie about that. That is, from the start an asset, being left alone. Companies in Europe are not "left alone", they have to follow all kinds of stupid laws, regulations, stepping stones, NIMBYs , you name it.

In the kind of envronment EK had and has, they can grow. All they have to do is delivering adeep black bottom line every year. For those of you who ever met or heard speeches from of their top people, you will be impressed. They have the best, charismatic leaders oin the industry. Thy are sales driven and again, they can do what they wamnt, as long as they do it right.

Here we are back again, what Mr Mayrhuber meant. It is not the competition of EK he fears, it is the equal opportunities he wants. LH is as sales driven as EK, but you cannot run the 100 meters dash with a rucksack on your back and expect to win. Under these circumstances, he puts some pressure on the German Givernment where he can.

That is legitimate.


BTW - Dubai may n ot need the support from Abu Dhabi, however, there are Sheikhdoms who have nothing, like Ajman, and they get supported by the rich ones.

. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:13 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 94):
It is not the competition of EK he fears, it is the equal opportunities he wants.

Of course he fears the competition.
Live life to the fullest.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:15 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 94):
BTW - Dubai may n ot need the support from Abu Dhabi, however, there are Sheikhdoms who have nothing, like Ajman, and they get supported by the rich ones.

= Just like former "West" Germany supports "East" Germany. The point is?

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4322
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:22 am

OMG, I am soooo complex, I can praise and criticize EK at the same time. (YAY, pat on the back) ... CO F/A Saying That EK Toilets Are Filthy (by HAMAD Nov 29 2007 in Civil Aviation)

PS: Yes, I am getting totally out of it waiting for my 5 hour delayed flight.
Live, and let live.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:25 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 96):

= Just like former "West" Germany supports "East" Germany. The point is?

well, we have something here where the "rich" states support the "poor states". The Newfivelands joined that system of course.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 95):

Of course he fears the competition.

how do you know that? Have you read the interview?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
columba
Posts: 5238
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LH Complaining About EK Threat..

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:35 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 92):
.....as I mentioned above, cost, m/x, aircraft size....

Size might be the most important fact but costs and m/x are not really a problem for LH.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong

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