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764
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

Daylight Service US-FRA?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:17 pm

I am a little puzzled by the fact that there are several daylight services leaving numerous US airports in the morning and arriving in London in the evening of the same day. But it seems that there are no daylight services to continental Europe. I especially looked at FRA and there really is no flight that allows you to get to Frankfurt on the same day. Considering it is Lufthansa's major hub, I found this rather disappointing.

Does anybody know just why there are so many to LHR, but nonw to places like FRA? I mean, a flight leaving NYC at 08:00 could easily arrive in FRA by 21:30, so it'd be not only doable, but actually very convenient. I fo one would love to take the daylight service ove rhaving to fly red-eyes. I have been on one once and jetlag was not quite eliminated, but almost unnoticable.
 
Someone83
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:24 pm



Quoting 764 (Thread starter):
I mean, a flight leaving NYC at 08:00 could easily arrive in FRA by 21:30,

The problem here is then the reduced possibilities of connections opportunities. Is not that many flights that leaves FRA after 22:30. LHR is easier as it is 1 hr less flight time and 1 hr less time zone compared to Continental Europe, hence making a daylight flight from the US more do able
 
LHR777
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:31 pm

Additionally, JFK/BOS/ORD/IAD-LHR all support lots of O&D traffic, whereas I'd imagine that anything into FRA/AMS/CDG would support connecting traffic, hence requiring overnight services.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:33 pm

Just the other day I was thinking about this same thing. I am making plans for IAD-FRA in late Jan. For a number of reasons a daylight IAD-FRA would work better, for me, on this trip. I was thinking that if a daylight fllight USA-FRA would ever happen, I wonder if it would be possible from IAD-FRA due to IAD being a Star Alliance hub.

However, AF tried JFK-CDG as a daylight flight for awhile and the lods were not good and the flight dropped. Also BA tried year round a daylight IAD-LHR which was also dropped. However, it does operate during the spring and summer.

Operating a daylight flight USA-FRA would also have the extra challenege as a flight to the continent from the USA is also an extra time zone which complicates things. To get to FRA at a decent hour, to make connections, would also require leaving the USA at an early hour which also poses a challenge.

However, in the end, it would be interesting to see if UA or LH could make a daylight IAD-FRA flight work, considering IAD is a Star Alliance hub. My guess is that all things considered it would not work.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:16 pm

The lack of daylight service between the US and Europe has been discussed before, the simple answer is that passengers overwhelmingly prefer the overnight services (especially premium and business travellers) when flying to Europe. AF recently tried JFK-CDG daylight flights and the service was dropped for the winter timetable and its unclear if it will return.

Daylight services to London do work - why?

1. The US-London market is huge, thus the niche that prefers daylight services can be accommodated.

2. US-London is about an hour less in flying time than US-Paris or Frankfurt, PLUS, the time change between the US and UK is one hour less than the difference between US and Continental Europe.....the effective two hour schedule difference is a huge factor.

Daylight services to Europe dont work - why?

1. Due to flying time and time zone differences.....flights must depart from the US very very early or they will arrive in Europe very very late, passengers find these schedules inconvenient. A 700AM departure time out of JFK (in order to arrive in FRA by, say, 830PM) means getting to airport by 500AM and leaving your house by 400AM.....that sucks. A 900AM departure time out of JFK means getting in Frankfurt at 1030PM, doing the immigration and customs thing, and not getting to your hotel or to your home until midnight or later...also not very cool.

2. Due to scheduling, daylight flights have to rely very much on O&D traffic.....in general, they leave too early to allow inbound connections and arrive too late to allow for many onward connections. There are some flights that depart Europe for Africa or the Gulf very late in the evening (and those connections do support the US-London daylight services)...but its not a huge market and pax connecting are limited.

3. Business passengers, the ones paying the full fares that help the airlines make profits, really dont like the idea of wasting an entire day in the air....the overnight schedule is far more efficient.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:56 am

Daylight flights eastbound require more aircraft. Arriving at 2000 or later requires an overnight (because no one wants to leave that late going west), which means the morning departure westbound gets into the US after the daylight departure eastbound has departed.
 
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auroralives
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:42 am



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Daylight flights eastbound require more aircraft. Arriving at 2000 or later requires an overnight (because no one wants to leave that late going west), which means the morning departure westbound gets into the US after the daylight departure eastbound has departed.

But if LH did the flight, they could use the bird on their late-night departures to SIN or GRU or somewhere like that.

Cool... After years of lurking... I actually made a post  Smile
 
haggis79
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:49 am



Quoting AuroraLives (Reply 7):
Cool... After years of lurking... I actually made a post

Welcome to a.net, then...  Smile
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commavia
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:57 am

If AF couldn't make a daylight JFK-CDG work, I doubt anyone would be able to make JFK-FRA work.

And, outside of the London market, which - as others have said - is by far the largest and most valuable O&D market in Europe for U.S. travel, if any other U.S.-Europe route could possibly support a daylight eastbound, it would be JFK-CDG.

I'm not so sure that a daylight JFK-CDG and/or JFK-FRA will never work: I think a premium-configured 757 could work in both markets, but it would be a stretch.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:02 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
LH has an A-340 (occasionally an A-330, formerly a B-747-200) daily that flys from DFW to FRA, departing DFW at 1500L (2100Z). It should arrive at FRA around 0700Z the next morning.

That isn't really a daylight flight like they are talking about here.

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 2):

The problem here is then the reduced possibilities of connections opportunities. Is not that many flights that leaves FRA after 22:30. LHR is easier as it is 1 hr less flight time and 1 hr less time zone compared to Continental Europe, hence making a daylight flight from the US more do able

There is one group of connections that could make such a flight, and that would be eastbound red-eye flights

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
if any other U.S.-Europe route could possibly support a daylight eastbound, it would be JFK-CDG.

Actually, I would bank on FRA supporting a daylight before CDG

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):

I'm not so sure that a daylight JFK-CDG and/or JFK-FRA will never work: I think a premium-configured 757 could work in both markets, but it would be a stretch.

More than anything, it would be a waste of slot resources on the EU end of the flight.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
commavia
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:44 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Actually, I would bank on FRA supporting a daylight before CDG

CDG is a larger market for the U.S., and generates significantly more O&D demand - from JFK, New York, and elsewhere - than FRA.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:51 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):

CDG is a larger market for the U.S., and generates significantly more O&D demand - from JFK, New York, and elsewhere - than FRA.

I see FRA as generating more business demand, which is often the focus of daylight flights.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:11 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
I see FRA as generating more business demand, which is often the focus of daylight flights.

France is home to the headquarters of more Global 500 corporations than any other nation in Europe - only the U.S. and Japan are home to more Global 500 corporations.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
phatty3374
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:26 am

I think one of the main disadvantages of a daytime flight, such as JFK-FRA/CDG, is that an entire productive day is lost for the traveller.

With an overnight flight, businessmen/women can work/meet/oversee/etc. for an entire day, then catch a flight at night, only losing time that they would have otherwise spent sleeping. They wake up in Europe, get off the plane, and go to a meeting without losing any potential productivity. With a dayflight, they have to get up relatively early to catch the flight only to spend the whole day flying. Coupled with the timezone change, an entire day is "lost." Although many airlines' premium products are beginning to provide the comforts and amenities of an office, internet and cheap/reliable phone service, among other services vital to business are not available onboard most aircraft.

This is a major contributor to what makes many eastbound transatlantic flights viable, especially for those premium pax whose time is oh so precious!  Wink
 
Viscount724
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RE: Daylight Service US-FRA?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:35 am

Nobody has mentioned the poor aircraft utilization. Where does an aircraft that leaves JFK at 0800 come from? It would probably have to arrive the previous night and spend the night. Then when it arrives in FRA around 2200 it's too late to return, so it again spends the night. All of that means very poor utilization.

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